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  1. #761
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    i dont know why people make 'much ado about nothing' considering that slugfest

  2. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Are we watching the same show/reading the same books?

    The Lannisters have no interest in 'keeping the blood clean'; Voldemort and the Targaryens do. Cersei cares, first and foremost, about power and prestige, about getting her own will, and (in the beginning) about Jamie. She is selfish and vain. Her only redeeming quality, as Tyrion rightly notes, is her love for her children, though they are important to her simply because they are hers.
    If they don't have any interest in keeping the blood clean, then why are they the incest family? Why Cersei couldn't have Baratheon's children, but instead have only kids of her brother's? Why is every Lennister an incest child? Why do they hate the idea, that their descendants would be tarnished by the blood of other family?

    I think what you see as selfishness in Cersei I see as independence.
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  3. #763
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    Quote Originally Posted by SophiaDeep View Post
    If they don't have any interest in keeping the blood clean, then why are they the incest family? Why Cersei couldn't have Baratheon's children, but instead have only kids of her brother's? Why is every Lennister an incest child? Why do they hate the idea, that their descendants would be tarnished by the blood of other family?
    Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion and Tywin aren't born out of incest, only Cersei's children are, and that's because she only ever loved her brother. Targaryens are the ones who practice incest to keep the blood clean.

    EDIT: Ah well, Tywin married his cousin, so I guess his children are technically incestuous products. But marrying a cousin isn't anything out of the ordinary in Westeros, and the Lannisters are protective of of their family name and honor, not their blood. Tywin marries Cersei off to Robert Baratheon, and tries to find another suitor for her after Robert's death, as well as forced Tyrion to make Sansa his wife. Tywin also intended for Jaime to marry Lysa Tully until Cersei persuaded Jaime to join the Kingsguard. It's all political.

  4. #764
    vaudeville villain Hive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ... which of course leads to, does this apply only to other humans? Why isn't anyone complaining about the wolves? Or is it basically that the wolves are complicit/agreeing in some way.
    All of the Starks have a kind of spiritual bond with their direwolves, which is why they have wolf dreams, and also why Grey Wind tries to warn Robb at the Red Wedding when he senses the impending danger.

    It's like with his direwolf, Bran has the key to enter. With Hodor, or any other creature he doesn't share a bond with, he has to break the lock.

  5. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    "So from what you've read or heard, is Bran acting a bit cruelly or sadistically to sweet Hodor (HODOR!!) like a kid plucking wings off a butterfly?"

    Twas a question.
    Sadism had nothing to do with it, from the paragraph I saw. But I haven't read the books, so how would I know what else is in there? I have no idea how Bran is represented personality-wise in the books. "Nice" people usually don't act sadistically... but it doesn't mean they sometimes don't do bad things out of good intentions/ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by unsung View Post
    All of the Starks have a kind of spiritual bond with their direwolves, which is why they have wolf dreams, and also why Grey Wind tries to warn Robb at the Red Wedding when he senses the impending danger.

    It's like with his direwolf, Bran has the key to enter. With Hodor, or any other creature he doesn't share a bond with, he has to break the lock.
    Thanks, that last bit is very helpful and shows the distinction.
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  6. #766
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unsung View Post
    It's like with his direwolf, Bran has the key to enter. With Hodor, or any other creature he doesn't share a bond with, he has to break the lock.
    Also, animal locks are generally much easier to break than human locks. There is a moral element to it: Since animals are 'lesser' creatures, less self-aware, it is not as wrong to push their minds aside as it is to bereave another human of his body. The greatest pain in having been robbed stems from the idea of violation and loss, not from actually missing what is gone.

    To weigh in on that too: Bran is not cruel. So far, he has possessed Hodor only when it was necessary for the survival of the group. On the other hand, however, he does warg a lot and is somewhat in danger of losing himself in his direworlf because he longs to be mobile again. Remember, before the fall, he was a very active kid, climbing all over the buildings in Winterfell.

  7. #767
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    Yeah, I did see him as going into Summer being primarily motivated (along with any bond with the wolf) as also being the only time he can be "free" anymore and not trapped in his damaged body.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  8. #768
    Senior Member lecky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unsung View Post
    Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion and Tywin aren't born out of incest, only Cersei's children are, and that's because she only ever loved her brother. Targaryens are the ones who practice incest to keep the blood clean.

    EDIT: Ah well, Tywin married his cousin, so I guess his children are technically incestuous products. But marrying a cousin isn't anything out of the ordinary in Westeros, and the Lannisters are protective of of their family name and honor, not their blood. Tywin marries Cersei off to Robert Baratheon, and tries to find another suitor for her after Robert's death. He also intended to marry Jaime off to Lysa Tully before Cersei convinced Jaime to join the Kingsguard, as well as forced Tyrion to take Sansa for a wife.
    Ha! I can't imagine Jaime and Lysa together, but I'd like to see how he'd handle that crazy mess.

  9. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by lecky View Post
    Ha! I can't imagine Jaime and Lysa together, but I'd like to see how he'd handle that crazy mess.
    Ugggh.... now I want to scrub out my brain with a toilet brush to get rid of that picture.
    But it won't go away. Arrrrgggg....

    To speculate on the answer, there's always the Moon door. Jaime seems to like that sort of thing.
    (and poetic justice as well, considering what almost happened to his brother)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #770
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    ... they are important to her simply because they are hers.
    This is what I take home from it too.

    I think she sort of takes solace in them being products of the guy she loves, and that they're a big middle finger in the face to the world that won't let her be with her brother and forced her to marry Robert at all. She probably didn't have much else to take pride in for long stretches of time too while being married to Robert--on top of probably some basic motherly instincts. She's only ever really civil in the face of children being involved. Besides children, all bets are off.
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