Game of Thrones!

[Totenkindly]

For me, in the books—maybe less so in the HBO series—killing Joffrey weakened the momentum of the story. To oversimplify, it was almost like killing Voldemort halfway through Harry Potter. Joff was the man villain, the one I was scared of, especially from Tyrion’s POV. What happens when he really comes to power?

What happens if Joffrey would have come to power?
Easy: "Valar Morghulis"

That little [bleep] would just kill everyone.
Not much finesse there.

Joff had a visceral effect on readers because he was like a junior high bully with nearly unlimited power, and a psychopath to boot. You were happy and relieved when he died, sure, even if he did get off pretty easy for that world with such a quick and relatively clean death.

Yes. It was painful as a death, certainly; but it might have been the only time I would have wished Ramsay Bolton on anyone. Joffrey certainly deserved that. he was a beastly little monster.

But was it good for the story? No main villain has since filled the void. Perhaps one will, but there are a lot of pages (and character names to remember) in between. So Martin perhaps went too far in avoiding a Lord of the Rings scenario, wanting to show that the universe—his universe—doesn’t care if a character is “good” or “evil” in casting lots, that it’s all shades of gray, etc. Not to say it still isn’t a great series…

If Joffrey doesn't die, he either kills everyone and/or the story can't start winding down. Kind of boring.

Kill Joffrey and suddenly all the other characters get to actually do something / fight for the crown. This is elimination match, Game of Thrones, the crown is the prize and you either win the game or you die (to quote Cersie). So we're in the middle of "elimination." Half the contenders are gone. Half remain. Let's see what happens. Joffrey was an obstacle that unfortunately had to be removed, so that everyone else could get into the fun.

When I was skimming this thread I saw a few posts about the issue of Martin’s angry and demanding fans. I can relate to being disappointed over the long gaps between books, but definitely not to being angry at Martin. Stephen King, who went through the same thing with his Dark Tower series—him and Martin could probably start a support group—wrote a book called Misery that was all about such fans. They—esp. the ones who actually send the writer angry/hate mail—are childish people, in a bad and scary kind of way.

I'm glad King finished Dark Tower, but boy it was kind of hit or miss for some of it. The first four books (before the lull) were some of the best writing overall I've seen by him (and Book Four: Wizard & Glass is one of my most favorite things he has ever written, although it needs the setup of the first three to really evoke emotion. Drawing of the Three is pretty solid too -- and efficient as a book goes.)

Wolves of the Calla to me was one of his worst books ever, and then the quality of the remaining books goes up and down. [At least he nailed the Mordred subplot and the last 5-6 pages of the series -- stick that landing, yay!] It's like he forced himself to finish it just so that it would get done. So maybe it's not great to push JRRM to just end the thing.

On the other hand, he seemingly has already handed over all his notes about how it's supposed to end to the showrunners, so whether he dies or not, the TV show will reach the intended ending and someone can likely ghostwrite the books for him if necessary. So again, not a biggie either way I think.

And you are so right -- kind of scary that fans demand such things, he's giving them the gift of sharing a personal vision with them but they're insisting that he owes them something. They're all dirty birdies.

 

[nos4a2]

Yes. It was painful as a death, certainly; but it might have been the only time I would have wished Ramsay Bolton on anyone. Joffrey certainly deserved that. he was a beastly little monster.

Theon, on the other hand, got a lot worse than he deserved. We get the point, George: Life is not fair (at least not in your realm).

If Joffrey doesn't die, he either kills everyone and/or the story can't start winding down. Kind of boring.

Not necessarily. But granted, he would’ve had to learn some self-control and restraint.

You seem like a hardcore geek, so I’ll assume you’ve read all the books at least 5 times. In them (more evident, and more relevantly, than in the TV series) Joff’s death was also one of Littlefinger’s intricate plots. He was the mastermind behind it, and no one has a clue about this. Which is very interesting. Littlefinger tells Sansa later, when she asks what he had against Joffrey, “nothing, but it’s good to keep your enemies guessing with moves that don’t make sense.” Littlefinger seems very sure of himself. You're left feeling like everything that happens is according to his design. But what is his ultimate goal, since he himself obviously can never win the throne? For instance, the Spider's aims are clearer: he wants to see the Targaryens pack in power. I think part of Littlefinger's motivation is he loves playing the game, and the same can be said for Tyrion of course, who found his true calling as King's Hand and helped secure Joffrey on the throne without thinking of the consequences.

And you are so right -- kind of scary that fans demand such things, he's giving them the gift of sharing a personal vision with them but they're insisting that he owes them something. They're all dirty birdies.

Martin is their favorite bitch lol.

 

[Totenkindly]

Theon, on the other hand, got a lot worse than he deserved. We get the point, George: Life is not fair (at least not in your realm).

It's true. Theon is a dweeb, but not nearly as bad as Ramsay and got far worse than he has ditched out, really.

It's just pretty horrific to watch the beard-shaving scene (that Ramsay puts on to prove to his father how he dominates Theon) or the whole pretense of Theon being Reek being Theon when he enters the castle with troops.

You seem like a hardcore geek, so I’ll assume you’ve read all the books at least 5 times.

I have read none of the books.

Someone did give me the first three, but I've only looked up a few anecdotes to compare them to the show (like the Viper vs Mountain fight, or Tyrion's escape from the dungeon).

I didn't like the prose nearly as much as I've liked the show; it just seems to have more emotional nuance.

I'm also realizing from reading reviews and articles that after the first few books GRRM essentially goes on zillions of tangential and repetitive plots which could be half the reason he can't get the series finished.

I did manage to come up (through watching and reading just a little of the character background) who Jon Snow is likely to be, and after rewatching some of the early Ned Stark episodes, I'm even more convinced just by what is said and not said between Robert and Ned, and Catelyn and Ned, and Jon and Ned.

In them (more evident, and more relevantly, than in the TV series) Joff’s death was also one of Littlefinger’s intricate plots.

yes, in the show it comes off as an alliance between Elanna and Littlefinger. (What's really great is that if you rewatch that episode carefully, you can see the whole thing unfold right there on the screen, pretty much. Elanna... she's so great.)

He was the mastermind behind it, and no one has a clue about this. Which is very interesting. Littlefinger tells Sansa later, when she asks what he had against Joffrey, “nothing, but it’s good to keep your enemies guessing with moves that don’t make sense.” Littlefinger seems very sure of himself. You're left feeling like everything that happens is according to his design. But what is his ultimate goal, since he himself obviously can never win the throne? For instance, the Spider's aims are clearer: he wants to see the Targaryens pack in power. I think part of Littlefinger's motivation is he loves playing the game, and the same can be said for Tyrion of course, who found his true calling as King's Hand and helped secure Joffrey on the throne without thinking of the consequences.

I didn't feel like the current TV Tyrion really likes the game much at all, he would simply like to go back and live a more carefree life without interference by all the court drama even if he did happen to be good at it during his time as Hand. It's just the stuff that happened after he stopped being Hand was so repulsive that anyone would want to get the hell out of that crazy place.

But yes, I think if Littlefinger can't have the power directly to rule, he enjoys knowing that he has had the power to appoint the ruler so to speak. In a sense, if his machinations carry out as planned as he goes along, then he still feels vindicated and successful personally -- he's smarter than everyone else.

I like how he really is one of the least powerful (overtly) people on the show, with no blood heritage to even protect him, yet he's like the asp in the grass... biting ankles, poisoning one person after the next, and barely anyone is aware.

 

[nos4a2]

I have read none of the books.

Someone did give me the first three, but I've only looked up a few anecdotes to compare them to the show (like the Viper vs Mountain fight, or Tyrion's escape from the dungeon).

I didn't like the prose nearly as much as I've liked the show; it just seems to have more emotional nuance.

You have a lot to say, don’t you? But you say it well, so no worries.

I’m about an equal fan of both. Though I need to watch the TV series again, and have not read (or reread) any of the books since Dance came out several years ago. In some cases (or scenes), with some characters, there do appear to be emotional nuances in the TV version that are absent in the books. A few of the moving and revealing scenes with Tyrion and Cersei (who is more sympathetic in the TV series) come to mind. And there’s the walking scene with Tyrion and Sansa (after they are married) where they joke about what they’d like to do to certain people they hate. Sansa seemed to have developed some affection for Tyrion at that point, which was less apparent in the books. And Shae seemed to really love Tryion in the TV show, whereas in the books she was in it for the gold—as if Martin can’t bring himself to imagine that a beautiful woman could fall in love with a man half her size.

Margaery Tyrell too is less visible in the books—there are no scenes with her and Joff alone because neither are POV characters (so the structure of the books is both necessary and limiting). Also, apparently, Joffrey was not born a psychopath in the TV version, at least according to Cersei. The books refer to a scene in which Joff gutted a pregnant cat when he was a little kid.

I'm also realizing from reading reviews and articles that after the first few books GRRM essentially goes on zillions of tangential and repetitive plots which could be half the reason he can't get the series finished.

Your previous game/elimination analogy fits. Martin’s a chess geek, and was really into strategy games like Risk as a kid. That’s all good and well, but when you have a zillion characters on the gameboard, you lose readers who read other books and don’t have the time to reread one series 50 times to “prepare” for the next book. That’s part of why momentum was lost after Joff’s death, at least for some readers. It was a climax less then halfway through the series, which then branched off into more and more less compelling storylines—not to sound like a critic, but just giving my reaction. All said, though, there are quite a few geeks out there willing to put in the time (including myself to an extent), or Martin wouldn’t have so many pissed off fans dying for the next book and making insensitive remarks about fears of him dying before he can finish the series.

I did manage to come up (through watching and reading just a little of the character background) who Jon Snow is likely to be, and after rewatching some of the early Ned Stark episodes, I'm even more convinced just by what is said and not said between Robert and Ned, and Catelyn and Ned, and Jon and Ned.

Me too, but I don't know for sure. I think anything else would be a letdown. The parents have to be a significant revelation, rather than minor or previously unknown characters.

I didn't feel like the current TV Tyrion really likes the game much at all, he would simply like to go back and live a more carefree life without interference by all the court drama even if he did happen to be good at it during his time as Hand. It's just the stuff that happened after he stopped being Hand was so repulsive that anyone would want to get the hell out of that crazy place.

I was thinking of when he was Hand. When I first read Clash of Kings, like ten years ago, I was probably most into the series. In the book, Tyrion was definitely drunk on being Hand of the King, matching his wits against everyone, etc. Even while on some level beneath the surface denial he had to know that there was no future for him if Joffrey won the throne. He loved it, and he was good at it (I’ve always thought he would end up being Daenerys’s Hand too, but time will tell). Then came the morning after hangover when he wakes up in bed after being nearly murdered by a Kingsguard in the Battle of the Blackwater. His father has assumed position as King’s Hand and Joff is secured on the Iron Throne. It begins to dawn on Tyrion that he has seriously fucked himself (not to mention others) by putting a monster who hates him in power. Not that he really had any choice, but still.

But yes, I think if Littlefinger can't have the power directly to rule, he enjoys knowing that he has had the power to appoint the ruler so to speak. In a sense, if his machinations carry out as planned as he goes along, then he still feels vindicated and successful personally -- he's smarter than everyone else.

I like how he really is one of the least powerful (overtly) people on the show, with no blood heritage to even protect him, yet he's like the asp in the grass... biting ankles, poisoning one person after the next, and barely anyone is aware.

Yeah, I almost find myself rooting for him.

 

[Totenkindly]

https://games.yahoo.com/news/sorry-george-r-r-martin-170002561.html

Complaints that book readers are going to have the plot spoiled for them once the show moves past the book chronology.

The spoiler issue is a big one, and later seasons will force our hand a bit. It's not about knowing a spoiler, it's about losing the ability to experience and process it in real time, through either a book or a show. Hearing about it via Tweet or conversations sucks all the power out of the revelation, and lessens the fun of taking the ride.

My prediction? Book fans are going to be all but forced to move over to watching the show first to preserve those moments from themselves, or make peace with the idea that they'll hear about major plot points before they are able to watch or read about them. Hell, even Stephen King tweeted a spoiler on the air date of an episode with a major event and seemed taken aback by the reaction of fans.

On one level, I'm like, "Suck it up, what do you think the show watchers have had to deal with since the show started, with book readers posting book spoilers?" But I do acknowledge that I think the show audience is likely larger (significantly?) than the book audience and a 60-minute show much easier for many to watch versus reading parts of a book, so there will likely be more water cooler discussions and/or comments posted over social media. The book stuff has been mostly avoidable, if you make an effort; the show stuff might be harder to dodge. I'm kind of surprised I made it through Breaking Bad after it had all completely aired, without having the major events spoilers (except I think I knew the very general climax to Season 4 -- not how stuff happened but who won).

 

[nos4a2]

Complaints that book readers are going to have the plot spoiled for them once the show moves past the book chronology.

This makes it seem like the TV series has already caught up to the books, but the show still needs a couple more seasons to catch up to the current ones. If Martin finishes Winds of Winter by then, that will add a few more. So for the next few years at least, spoilers for readers should not be an issue.

 

[Totenkindly]

This makes it seem like the TV series has already caught up to the books, but the show still needs a couple more seasons to catch up to the current ones. If Martin finishes Winds of Winter by then, that will add a few more. So for the next few years at least, spoilers for readers should not be an issue.

It actually has already caught up to SOME parts of the books.

You should read more about it, if you've read the books. It's very explicit how the show has overtaken the books in some sections and stopped, and is catching up with others this season (6).

Martin wasn't going to finish the book this year, but now he's apparently busting his ass to do so and isn't even writing any episodes of the show this season to focus completely on the book. So I guess we'll see.

 

[nos4a2]

It actually has already caught up to SOME parts of the books.

You should read more about it, if you've read the books. It's very explicit how the show has overtaken the books in some sections and stopped, and is catching up with others this season (6).

You must pity all of us sad people who faithfully toiled through the books, and waited with infinite patience through the long gaps between them, only to have it come to this.

 

[Totenkindly]

You must pity all of us sad people who faithfully toiled through the books, and waited with infinite patience through the long gaps between them, only to have it come to this.

 

[Totenkindly]

Jon snow... like a boss!

 

[Qlip]

Apparently the first four episodes of this season were leaked, available to unscrupulous people who know how to get at them...

 

[Totenkindly]

Interview with Varys actor:
https://www.yahoo.com/tv/game-of-thrones-premiere-conleth-hill-interview-116075739430.html

I like Varys a lot and appreciate having a better handle on him as of late... although of course you might imagine he's still holding something close to chest.

Apparently the first four episodes of this season were leaked, available to unscrupulous people who know how to get at them...

Yeah, I heard. Haven't seen em...just the one that aired tonight.

I did see there was a review out a few days ago for the first four and was wondering how....

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I think I've felt like Mance Rayder quite a bit in the last few weeks.

Was Stannis right to do it? Do you buy Melisandre's schtick at the end?

Frankly, I can't stand people like Melisandre. I don't understand why Stannis has such a fan following. People make excuses for the burnings based on the fact that the doesn't really believe in it, but I think that's worse, to pander to it as a way of gaining followers.

I'd much rather Danerys or Sansa sit the Iron Throne.

 

[Totenkindly]

I hate Melisandre. She's one scary bitch, and I've thought that ever since

I saw her birth that ugly shadow demon baby from hell way back in Season 2. Good god.

Anyway, I think she's got her eye on Jon Snow now. Maybe she senses he has even more lineage than Stannis. But she's just freaky. I was hoping they'd throw her on the fire, except she'd probably turn into a large cackling dragon hag or something.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Anyway, I think she's got her eye on Jon Snow now. Maybe she senses he has even more lineage than Stannis. But she's just freaky. I was hoping they'd throw her on the fire, except she'd probably turn into a large cackling dragon hag or something.

Is she going to ditch Stannis at some point for Jon Snow? I think if that happens, Stannis has little chance of surviving.

At this point in the narrative, I admit I am rooting for Stannis, because the Boltons are so much worse. I always thought he was sympathetic given his childhood as sort of an unloved middle child, but I think he is so rigid and unbending that he ends up being quite unreasonable. And I find his pandering to fanaticism worse in a way than Joffrey's middle school bullying writ large. You might win over a smuggler with his brand of justice, but what about the high lords? There's hypocrisy in the fact that he never punishes the lords for fighting for Renly, because he needs their political support. The only people he punishes are the lowborn and whomever Melisandre decides needs to go on the flames.

Littlefinger is worse than all of them, though.

 

[Totenkindly]

Is she going to ditch Stannis at some point for Jon Snow? I think of that happens, Stannis has little chance of surviving.

I don't know. Stannis to me is an incompetent. He wouldn't even be a player, except for Melisandre (who eliminated some competition for him) and because of Davos who kept him in the game when he just gave up. He's noble in the most broadest sense of the word, and he has a legitimate claim to the throne beyond others; but he's also anal, demanding, presumptuous, and likely to be a terrible mediator.

At this point in the narrative, I admit I am rooting for Stannis, because the Boltons are so much worse.

Well, okay, the Boltons suck. At least Dad Bolton is competent even if cutthroat; but Ramsey Bolton is a psychopath. I don't even look at them as players, they just need to be stopped.

I'm looking past the Baratheon line for a king.

Obviously the Targaryans are the big potential players -- Daenerys is an idealist who needs to be tempered with some realism, but she might be a great queen in the end. And potentially Jon Snow.

I think the Lannisters are done out of the running.

I always thought he was sympathetic given his childhood as sort of an unloved middle child, but I think he is so rigid and unbending that he ends up being quite unreasonable. And I find his pandering to fanaticism worse in a way than Joffrey's middle school bullying writ large. You might win over a smuggler with his brand of justice, but what about the high lords? There's hypocrisy in the fact that he never punishes the lords for fighting for Renly, because he needs their political support. The only people he punishes are the lowborn and whomever Melisandre decides needs to go on the flames.

He did burn his own brother-in-law to death early on.

See above, anyway. Somewhat the same summary you have presented. He has no flexibility or compassion and is very unrealistic/unreasonable.

Littlefinger is worse than all of them, though.

At least Baelish is fun. Stannis needs to turn that frown upside down.

 

[Ivy]

Have y'all heard the podcast Game of Drones? I used it last night to get to sleep. It's amazing. No substantive discussion of the show, lots of boring stories about Tommen and Ser Pounce. (And that's remarkable, because I love Tommen and Ser Pounce.)

 

[r.a]

I caved and saw the first four. Should I just make a separate, spoilery thread? Cause WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT

SANSA.

.

 

[GarrotTheThief]

*gasps with excitement*

Tonight the Game of Thrones series will finally premiere on HBO! Is anyone else as excited as me?

(As an aside, if you haven't read the fantasy series that it is based off of.... you really should give them a whirl. I am 34% convinced that he will finish the series before he dies. I also am pegging him as an INTP... if anyone else has an opinion on that score.)

I find Martin's novels to be incredibly boring, albeit above average, especially compared to the Malazan series...but he is a great film producer/director/writer which makes me think he is more intj than intp since he does better working with others.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I don't know. Stannis to me is an incompetent. He wouldn't even be a player, except for Melisandre (who eliminated some competition for him) and because of Davos who kept him in the game when he just gave up. He's noble in the most broadest sense of the word, and he has a legitimate claim to the throne beyond others; but he's also anal, demanding, presumptuous, and likely to be a terrible mediator.

I don't see him making it to the end game, unless perhaps he stops pursuing the throne at some point and bends the knee to someone else. It's possible that he may do such a thing for a Targaryen claimant.

Anyway, a cool thing about this series is that more and more pieces keep getting knocked off the board.

I think the Lannisters are done out of the running.

Yes.... I think their hand has been significantly weakened. They successfully gained the kingdom, and essentially lost it due to infighting. History is full of such parallels. Tywin seemed to live by the rule that "it's better to be feared than loved" but now that he's gone, will the Lannister name continue to command any loyalty? There is essentially only Jaime, Cersei, and their uncle and cousin. Only Cersei has any interest in ruling out of any of those. Do you see that going well? She didn't seem particularly attentive to the latest developments in the kingdom last night; she seemed utterly disinterested in this new religious movement.

He did burn his own brother-in-law to death early on.

Wasn't that at Melisandre's urging?

See above, anyway. Somewhat the same summary you have presented. He has no flexibility or compassion and is very unrealistic/unreasonable.

Stannis is like iron, rather than steel. His hardness is a weakness, ultimately. He'll break before he bends. (I stole that from the books, but it's a good metaphor.)

Fun is for sheeple.