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Thread: Game of Thrones!

  1. #1521
    Temporal Mechanic. Array Lexicon's Avatar
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    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
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    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!

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  2. #1522
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    I've rewatched the episode, and now believe that this was 100% within Stannis' character. I think my main issue is that it was rushed, and that D&D preferred (once again) to "shock" the audience by establishing that the horrible thing that's about to happen couldn't possibly happen, and then ripped the rug from underneath us. It's great for maximizing the shock value, but comes at the price of suspense and integrity of the story, I think.

    Also, Selyse's change of heart still bothers me. I think the show is preying on the audience projecting their love for their children to make it believable. Selyse, though, never had a mother-daughter bond with Shireen. She diverted more time and love towards the dead fetuses she put in jars in her room, and was also a driving force towards several other family members getting burned back on Dragonstone.

    Having said that, as a book reader this is the first traumatic event that I didn't already read about in the books. Maybe that is coloring my mood a bit!

    Quote Originally Posted by Swivelinglight View Post
    I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?
    Heh. If we are going to use book Stannis quotes, I prefer this zinger he directed towards Melisandre.

    "Half my army is made up of unbelievers. I will have no burnings. Pray harder."

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Stannis, what do you want?

    And, he'd dourly reply, "That is not a relevant question to ask."

    Which has driven his plot thus far. He needs an Fi sledgehammer to hit him over the head, as a fish needs water.
    Stannis is described as a man who is completely and utterly just, but lacks morality. On the surface this can be comforting (and why so many people loved him early on, I think), but it is actually quite terrifying. Laws don't always match good morals, and Stannis is the type of person that needs to be disposed of for society to make positive change.

    As for his motives, there's an element of resentment and anger that fuels his "I will have what is mine by birth and by right"eousness. Long story, but basically Stannis played a pivotal role in helping his big bro Robert defeat the Targaryens. Namely, he held onto the Baratheon's home castle of Storm's End when Mace Tyrell laid siege to it with his huge-ass army. The siege lasted for around a year, and Stannis survived it by eating rats and having Davos smuggle onions into the castle. Near the end of the rebellion, Ned Stark broke the siege and Stannis then took the fleet and conquered the Targaryen's home castle of Dragonstone. He was sort of a badass, and sacrificed much to help his brother win the rebellion.

    The only problem was that Dany and Viserys had already escaped Dragonstone, and even though that wasn't really Stannis' fault, Robert blamed Stannis.

    So after the war, Robert ended up giving Stannis the bleak, desolate Dragonstone while giving (younger brother) Renly Storm's End, which had more lands, more people, and overall was a nicer place to actually live. Now, Robert may have had actual reasons for doing that, such as Dragonstone being the bigger and more prestigious castle, as well as Renly being a more likable person better suited for ruling the larger population of Storm's End. Nevertheless, Stannis always felt cheated by Robert and envious of Renly, so when he became the rightful King after Robert's death, he threw himself into fixing what he perceived was a great injustice done onto him.

    This is why, back in Season 2, Renly actually had the larger and more powerful army, and why Stannis was A-OHTAY with using a shadow baby to kill him.
    Last edited by Udog; 06-10-2015 at 09:43 AM. Reason: Fixed an error - Stannis held Storm's End, not Dragonstone.
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  3. #1523
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    Quote Originally Posted by C.J.Woolf View Post
    I watch GoT on DVD months after it airs. I spoil myself thoroughly but it's still compelling. I knew exactly what would happen at the Red Wedding but it still managed to shock.

    What a great show.
    I like the show and the books because I like exploring other universes, and as with any fantastical universe, it's possible to draw parallels between it and and the real world. I think different people are going to draw different parallels based on their own experiences. For example, you can draw a comparison between Westeros and the U.S. We don't have a feudal system, but in some ways the politicians, CEO's and celebrities of our own time seem comparable to the nobility of Westeros.

    I was also quite surprised to learn that David Benioff wrote the 2004 movie Troy. It didn't get great reviews, but I remember liking it at the time. I think both adaptations deal with similar themes. It's not really a faithful adaptation of the Illiad, and that was another thing it got blasted for. But it would have been impossible to pull off a faithful adaption of the Iliad. The various deities seem to act as substitutions for a modern understanding of human psychology; pretty much everything that happens in the story is attributed to them, which would look bizarre to contemporary audiences, as it was to me reading it. (The famous part with the Trojan horse isn't even in the Iliad, either, and is probably from parts of the larger cycle that were lost. I don't remember many people mentioning that, though.) I can draw similarities between it and the Game of Thrones, and they way it handles war, social structure, ambition and human relationships. It's a movie that's worth checking out if you like Game of Thrones; it represents a similar take on pre-industrial societies.
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  4. #1524
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    I'm just curious about this, and what people think. There's been a high body count on this show, and lots of characters people liked have bit the dust. Whose death was the most upsetting to people?

    Ned Stark?

    Renly Baratheon?

    Robb Stark?

    Talisa Stark?

    Catelyn Stark?

    Oberyn Martell? This is my vote. I liked his sexual attitudes, the way he raised his daughters, and his ability to empathize with Tyrion, despite the fact that he was a Lannister. He was a good fighter and excellent at verbal sparring, and knowledgeable about a lot of different subjects (this is shown in the book). Kind of mischievous, and not someone to trifle with, but a good person overall with a joyful approach to life despite it being full of tragedy. He managed to be a bad-ass while being empathetic at he same time. He was winning, and then his head got crushed in because he got cocky.

    Shireen Baratheon?
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  5. #1525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    Whose death was the most upsetting to people?
    Ned Stark? I didn't start watching until Season 3, so the "Sean Bean" meme was already firmly established, I kind of had no way to avoid it. I think if I hadn't known it was coming, I'd have been more upset. Still, it was artfully done -- and the way he was betrayed at his execution (he sacrificed his honor, which meant everything to him, in order to keep his girls safe... and then Joffrey reneged on the deal and Ned still tied) was horribly upsetting in itself, adding insult to injustice and more. But he was also very foolish -- I half-blame him for his own death, because of not playing the game with more cunning. He wasn't enough of a realist.

    Renly Baratheon? I didn't know who Renly was, really, not being a book reader and cramming in a blitz of GoT episodes. So it was like, "Okay, he seemed nice, but at least that's one less person to keep track of." I was more disturbed by shadowdemon baby crawling out of the witch's hoohaa, I curled my legs way up when that happen...

    Robb Stark? Didn't know it was coming, aside from that someone was gonna die. I had started to wonder if it was him, with the Walder Fery convo in mid-episode being very ominous, but then nothing happened... so I wondered if maybe we were okay. I had a brief flicker of hope when Caitlyn tried to cut a deal, but... no. Silence.

    Talisa Stark?
    One of the worst ever. First death in that flurry, and they stabbed her pregnant belly repeatedly. dear god. But... I didn't know her well, and didn't care much about her versus some other characters. She seemed nice and not deserving of what happened to her.

    Catelyn Stark?

    Figured it was coming, but I felt her grief. Beautifully acted.

    Oberyn Martell? This is my vote. I liked his sexual attitudes, the way he raised his daughters, and his ability to empathize with Tyrion, despite the fact that he was a Lannister. He was a good fighter and excellent at verbal sparring, and knowledgeable about a lot of different subjects (this is shown in the book). Kind of mischievous, and not someone to trifle with, but a good person overall with a joyful approach to life despite it being full of tragedy. He managed to be a bad-ass while being empathetic at he same time. He was winning, and then his head got crushed in because he got cocky.

    Not necessarily all cockiness, but for him he NEEDED to force that confession, not just kill the mountain. He wanted to force the Lannisters to confess. He wanted EVERYONE to know their injustice. He hated them, and his sister had been wronged (first Rhaegar scorns her publicly for Lyanna, then the brutal rape and murders). So that burning obsessive need to right the wrong is what was driving him, under that veneer of hubris. But I agree that in that brief flicker where he looks at Ellaria and smiles, THERE he was cocky... and that moment was the one where the Mountain grabbed his foot.

    It was devasting, honestly. I had no idea who would win. I was on the edge of my seat. I thought, "My god, he might win this." And then he had it won, but not everything he wanted, and ... it resulted in his loss, and in such a horrible way.

    All that being said, I think Oberyn is in the running for my favorite GoT character (at least, in the "likeable" category). That scene where he tells Tyrion "I will be your champion" still brings tears to my eyes when I watch it, what he says there says a great deal about him as a person while still unfolding naturally.



    Shireen Baratheon? I knew it was coming, it was thematically telecast for quite awhile, and the earlier scenes were like, "Shit, yeah, he's gonna do it." So, it wasn't SHOCKING like Oberon's or Talisa's death (which were both surprising and brutal).

    However, Shireen was one of the kindest, most wonderful characters on the show; and especially as a parent it's easy to feel disgust and outrage over what Stannis did. Also, she acted the part exceedingly well, so it was excruciating to listen to what was happening.



    ----

    I find this exchange extremely ironic:

    ("Game of Thrones: First of His Name (#4.5)" (2014))
    Oberyn Martell: They don't hurt little girls in Dorne.
    Cersei Lannister: Everywhere in the world, they hurt little girls.

    Oberyn was right.
    Cersei (she should be thankful of this) was wrong.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #1526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That scene where he tells Tyrion "I will be your champion" still brings tears to my eyes when I watch it, what he says there says a great deal about him as a person while still unfolding naturally.
    Yes. It was incredible. I remember when I read the book, he was somebody I wanted to like, but I wasn't sure if I could trust him or not. When he decided to stick up for Tyrion, right then, I knew he was one of the good guys, and thought he was going to be a major player. 'Twas not to be, sadly.

    Fun GOT trivia fact of the day:

    Did you know that Talisa Stark was played by the granddaughter of Charlie Chaplin? The character is an original creation of the showrunners, but I actually approved of this; she was a lot more fleshed out than her counterpart in the book.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
    The vagabond who is rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes you once wore.

  7. #1527
    Senior Member Array Eskimo2's Avatar
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    Ned Stark?

    - Definately the most upsetting. At that point, Arya was my favorite character, and the bond that was shown that she shared with her father was so well done and intense seeming-that the fact that she had to be there to witness her father being so unfairly treated, that really dialed up that scene. Any and all innocence for a country shattered having to be seen through the eyes of a child, and all because of the system blindly being stuck giving power to one deranged and impulsive child.

    Renly Baratheon?

    I don't really remember who this was, so nothing involved with that.

    Robb Stark?

    -Didn't really care for or about Robb. His death was upsetting just in the way that it was done and what it sort of signified, but to me Catelyns was significantly more 'traumatic' and powerful.

    Talisa Stark?

    That death was gruesome-not exactly fun to watch and super dark. But well done.

    Catelyn Stark?

    -Catelyn. Her death was almost as tragic as her husbands-maybe more so in relation to what she had already been through. She had already been throught the death of her husband, the thought of the death of her youngest sons, and the remorse and self blame relating to John Snow. Then she had to see her eldest son, who she had been spending all this time with and had 'bonded', die in front of her while at the same time knowing she would inevitably die herself, tragic. Well acted too, the scene was intense, suspenseful-dark-hopeless.

    Oberyn Martell

    -Skipped the 4th season, need to go back and watch it apparently.

    Shireen Baratheon?

    -This was a bit odd of a scene. You knew it was coming, but to see it actually happen(though thank god you didn't have to actually 'see' it, gave me a similar reaction as seeing Ned Starks death-but this was so much more desperate and scattered and unsure seeming. I actually think the reactions of the parents were sort of feasible.

  8. #1528
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Array Cellmold's Avatar
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    We all watched Stannis
    and we all thought he was a dick.

  9. #1529
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    We all watched Stannis
    and we all thought he was a dick.
    Well acted, though. And his decision does make sense given what he can expect from R'hllor in return.
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  10. #1530
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Well acted, though. And his decision does make sense given what he can expect from R'hllor in return.
    I kind of wish they included the Northern clans that marched with Stannis in the book.

    "Red Rahloo has no power here."
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
    The vagabond who is rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes you once wore.

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