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  1. #1461
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah, we saw the breakdown of that dream during his trial for the murder he didn't commit (after risking his life and saving the city back in Season 2), resulting in his outrageous speech leading up to his demand for "trial by combat" since he realized he'd get no fair trial otherwise. He really is drinking a helluvalot, and while it seems a year later in our world, for him it really hasn't been that long in story weeks/months since he told off the crowd, had the combat trial, then escaped the dungeon killing his father, and hopped on a boat. No wonder he's just wanting to drink all the time.
    That trial speech was pretty good. The bile in that was intense, and yet, it was very understandable. I see him as having been pushed to the breaking point after trying his best to participate in a rigged system that didn't really want him participating anyway. I'm not necessarily going to say that I condone his actions after he was released, but it's not too hard for me to imagine where he's coming from.

    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  2. #1462
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    Well, he did report on the whereabouts of Danerys to Robert in season 1 and created the assassination attempt. Although I wonder if that was purposely designed to fail.
    I suspect it was, considering what I know of him now. And what better way to instigate the Targaryans to WANT to come back (versus just staying gone and seeking fortune elsewhere) than by manufacturing a "fake" assassination attempt? It suggests that someone sees you as a threat, which means you realize you still have power/leverage; and of course it also creates animosity, especially from someone like Drogo.

    (As a minor note, Tyrion believes Varys was protecting Dani, and Tyrion acts as kind of a mouthpiece for GRRM; his logic is usually sound.)

    I think he may have backed Viserys (although he might not have known that Viserys was insane), and I think he only latched onto Danerys later on. The conversation Arya overheard in season 1 seemed to not mention Danerys at all. Varys definitely has a morally gray side to him. But Littlefinger is morally black. (This setting is Black and Grey Morality.)
    Agreed.

    And I did rewatch much of Season 1 this past week. That council where Ned quits after everyone else insists on assassinating Daenerys (because she is pregnant with Drogo's child) -- Ned's "morally white" and he just refuses to agree. Varys makes a case for killing her, but I see that as prudent for him in his position; he can claim to have hired someone to kill her, and then just foil the attempt. It serves a double purpose.

    I also have to wonder if Varys and his pal Illyrio knew what would happen with the dragon eggs. Did they know they would hatch? Did they have any reason to believe that they were anything more than a rare and costly souvenir? Or is the re-emergence of dragons into the world something entirely unaccounted for in their plans?
    No idea, but that's what makes this so much fun.

    Dani had an idea. She was placing the eggs in the fire to see what would happen, before her brother even died. In fact, now rewatching it knowing what I know, there were numerous signals during the season to point out that Viserys was not the dragon and Dani was (even starting with that first scene where she walks naked into the hot bath -- "no, my lady, it's too hot!")... I thought it was just her despondency over being married off to Drogo, so a psychological thing, but no, the heat didn't bother her. Later she doesn't burn her hands on the hot egg, although her handmaiden does. Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    That trial speech was pretty good. The bile in that was intense, and yet, it was very understandable. I see him as having been pushed to the breaking point after trying his best to participate in a rigged system that didn't really want him participating anyway. I'm not necessarily going to say that I condone his actions after he was released, but it's not too hard for me to imagine where he's coming from.

    What, killing his dad and Shae?

    I'm not even sure if he planned to kill his dad when he first went up. I think it was on his mind, but I think he could have been persuaded to go in different directions depending on outcome. Of course, then he shows up and sees Shae, and that's the end of that....

    But of course, after he goes up, based on how badly they immediately went, at that point the outcome was predetermined. Even if he was acting out of rage and betrayal. He kind of had to kill them to avoid being killed.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #1463
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I'd love to hear discussions about her direction. She was called out for fooling her own heart, when she lied about hating The Hound (and got a lashing for it).
    I thought that was great. I told people she might not hate him!

    She's so strong-willed, I see her as someone who can live in denial to any internal feelings that might not align with her goals.

    She's being trained to be an assassin. Given. While, Meryn Trant is coming to Braavos, along with Mace Tyrell. It's a given they will meet. One of her top hitlist marks. The meeting will be epic. Given.
    Yeah, I've been waiting for Mace and Meryn to show up and when they might run into each other...

    How will she ultimately converge with the other plot points? I'm inclined to believe that she will be the driving force for the Stark revenge (her not being able to fully give up her Stark identity/needle).
    I honestly am not sure. I'm sure she'll never be a true assassin for them in the sense her heart will always be Stark, as you've said -- she can't give that up, it's her reason to live.

    But will revenge be a mistake? Her heart has become severe. Will she accomplish something desirable with that, or just ruin something that was already getting fixed? I honestly have no idea where that's going.

    It's too bad, I don't expect Ramsay to survive long enough for the two to meet. By the time Arya gets back, many people on her list might be gone. Still, Cersei and Walder Frey might be fair game. Gregor Clegane is on there, but.... Arya, I don't care who has been training you, I just don't know if you can pull that one off... considering.

    You know, just because he's not currently on the list... once she's found out everything he's done and how he started the ball rolling: Littlefinger. That could be rather sweet... killed by Catelyn's daughter. And Arya is the dark-haired Stark.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #1464
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    How will she ultimately converge with the other plot points? I'm inclined to believe that she will be the driving force for the Stark revenge (her not being able to fully give up her Stark identity/needle).
    Vengeance is a huge motivating factor for Arya, so I'm inclined to agree.

    Most likely, her plot will intertwine with people on her list, so here it is as of the beginning of this season:

    Cersei
    Walder Frey
    The Mountain
    Meryn Trant

    Meryn Trant's future isn't looking all that bright if Arya happens to run into him. I hope he took out an insurance policy before he left (just not with Arya's insurer)!

    Cersei and the Mountain are together in King's Landing, which does make them a tempting target. However, there are a lot of variables at play here that make me think they aren't the top target. First, I imagine she's going to eventually get word that The Mountain is dead. Second, Cersei's life isn't all that great right now, and she does love to let people suffer. On the plus side, Arya knows all about the secret tunnels running through the Red Keep at King's Landing... which may prove useful for assassiny things.

    Next, we have Walder Frey. I like this option. There isn't anyone around to extract vengeance on him, so his plot point has sort of been dangling for a while now. Plus, she was actually there, which has to add to the trauma of the whole thing and will enable her continuing moral downward spiral. There's a very potentially compelling story to be told, and I'm not entirely sure she's going to be the "good guy" by the end of it.

    Ultimately though, she's probably going to be opportunistic. Who's next on her list will probably depend on whatever mission she's sent on next.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I suspect it was, considering what I know of him now. And what better way to instigate the Targaryans to WANT to come back (versus just staying gone and seeking fortune elsewhere) than by manufacturing a "fake" assassination attempt? It suggests that someone sees you as a threat, which means you realize you still have power/leverage; and of course it also creates animosity, especially from someone like Drogo.

    And I did rewatch much of Season 1 this past week. That council where Ned quits after everyone else insists on assassinating Daenerys (because she is pregnant with Drogo's child) -- Ned's "morally white" and he just refuses to agree. Varys makes a case for killing her, but I see that as prudent for him in his position; he can claim to have hired someone to kill her, and then just foil the attempt. It serves a double purpose.


    No idea, but that's what makes this so much fun.
    I really do believe that the assassination attempt was genuine. They probably backed Viserys originally, and with Dany and Khal Drogo's unborn child murdered on order of Robert Baratheon, Drogo would have been very motivated to finally cross the narrow sea and seek vengeance. But that didn't work out, and over time Dany started to show that she was capable of both power and mercy, so Varys and his friend Illyrio started to back her.

    This is different than in the books, but based off the information the TV show has given us, it's my guess.
    Last edited by Udog; 06-03-2015 at 10:38 AM. Reason: Forgot a word.

  5. #1465
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    I suspect it was, considering what I know of him now. And what better way to instigate the Targaryans to WANT to come back (versus just staying gone and seeking fortune elsewhere) than by manufacturing a "fake" assassination attempt?
    That's along the lines I was thinking. Remember how Drogo reacted after the assassination attempt? If wound infections hadn't got him, he would have messed things up. If someone wanted to compel Drogo invade the seven kingdoms, that was certainly the right move. Perhaps Varys also knew enough about Jorah's history to know what he would do once he found out about the assassination attempt. It's possible that he had a good idea that Jorah would choose saving Danerys over going home.

    I'm not even sure if he planned to kill his dad when he first went up. I think it was on his mind, but I think he could have been persuaded to go in different directions depending on outcome. Of course, then he shows up and sees Shae, and that's the end of that....

    But of course, after he goes up, based on how badly they immediately went, at that point the outcome was predetermined. Even if he was acting out of rage and betrayal. He kind of had to kill them to avoid being killed.
    Good point. They made that less morally ambiguous than it was in the book.

    I really, really like that last scene, where the Night's King taunts Jon, and Jon has the look on his face where he realizes how incredibly fucked they are. It was a good way to give a personality to a mute character with uncertain motives. I expect, though, that the goal of the White Walkers is essentially the end of all living sentient beings that are not White Walkers, probably as a form of revenge. I was tempted to say that they wanted to eliminate all human life, but then I remembered that the giants and the Children of the Forest are opposed to them, too. I expect that they used to rule Westeros, or at least have strong influence over a much larger swath of it, before the humans came.

    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  6. #1466
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Well, GRRM typically has multiple perspectives, right? So it makes you wonder what the Walkers want, who they are, why they even exist, why they bother to create new walkers (from Crasterbrats), and so forth... Sure, we can just have 'evil for the sake of evil'... but typically it's just a matter of perspective for lots of stuff here, many of the characters are mottled.

    I don't know if the undead can handle water, but if they could, then it REALLY comes off as a taunt big-time. Because the horde could have swam after Jon and killed him right there... but it serves the King's purpose to just show them how screwed they are and then let him go to spread the word so everyone can cower in terror before the end. Geez. I just love that whole scene -- and how there isn't even music; it doesn't need it, the events are powerful all on their own.

    I wonder if we should have a small group poll here of what episodes people would include in their top five or something.... This might (arguably) have been my favorite episode overall so far, but I'd have to go back and really look at them all again. I think I can say it's in my top three.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #1467
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    I don't know if the undead can handle water, but if they could, then it REALLY comes off as a taunt big-time. Because the horde could have swam after Jon and killed him right there... but it serves the King's purpose to just show them how screwed they are and then let him go to spread the word so everyone can cower in terror before the end. Geez. I just love that whole scene -- and how there isn't even music; it doesn't need it, the events are powerful all on their own.
    I like that idea, that he could have gone after them, he just chose not to, because it would have made no difference.

    If you're interested, here's the back story we have for the Night's King from the book. I'm not sure if the show is sticking to it or not, and even in the books, it's just old tales, so it might not be the complete picture. Certainly, there are curious incongruencies with other elements of the back story that cause me to doubt whether or not this is the whole story.

    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  8. #1468
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    GRRM has talked about how much he dislikes the "ultimate evil" trope in fantasy, so it's really hard to believe that the White Walkers are simply pure evil. It doesn't mean they don't want to conquer all of Westeros and kill humans, though. The First Men basically did that when they came over from Essos and attempted to eradicate the Children of the Forest, and Martin may be making a parallel with that.
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  9. #1469
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    If Miyazaki starts writing for the show, they'll all be friends in the end and the world will be a better place.

  10. #1470
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    If Miyazaki starts writing for the show, they'll all be friends in the end and the world will be a better place.
    Howland's Moving Castle, amirite?

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