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  1. #1451
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    \
    Yes, well, I was echoing querus on that terminology. It's an undead human, at any rate, even if he acts nothing like the ice zombies.
    I guess my point is that they act SO diffferent (one having volition, one not) that to call them both zombies seems misleading, unless there was more in the books to justify that kind of grouping.

    I do understand that their personalities can change somewhat, though, correct?

    I think my favorite scenes were actually the Danerys-Tyrion interactions.
    Of course their actual dialogues were good. Great, even.

    I want to say that one part of the scene I really liked was when Dani gently reaches over and takes the glass of wine out of Tyrion's hand, before he gets too drunk to make sense. She's not demeaning towards him, or demanding it (as Queen); it really came across as "I realize you have an issue here; but I value your opinion and need you, and it's not good for you, so I need you to stop both for yourself and me." She was really good with him, and he responds to it in that understanding. I don't think we've seen her free to be that GENTLE and full of grace in any of her actions; she's always had to be the tough leader. Going along with that, Tyrion actually sees her as strong without her having to prove it to him all the time.

    Another subtle thing is when Tyrion is standing next to Jorah, and when she asks Tyrion what he would do with him, Tyrion very quietly talks and walks up a few steps, just enough to separate Jorah from himself and seem like an advisor (since he's closer to her on level and there's more more intimacy with reduced distance), but not far enough or fast enough to make him seem threatening even if the guards do briefly react. It was just a beautiful stroke on his part. He "positions" himself to BE her advisor. He's just really damned good at reading situations and knowing just how much to assert himself and where to stop.

    What do you think led Danerys to trust Tyrion? What led Tyrion to trust Danerys?
    Daenerys


    Tyrion
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  2. #1452

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I guess my point is that they act SO diffferent (one having volition, one not) that to call them both zombies seems misleading, unless there was more in the books to justify that kind of grouping.
    I think I originally used the term zombie, to mean anything raised from the dead, again.I.e., the undead. I don't know the technical specifications of what qualifies as a "zombie" versus something else, and was in no way trying to be technically accurate with my zombie terminology. I did mean the ones that the fire god brought back to life, vis a vis, that guy who seems to have the power to request the fire god stuff, and brought back his friend. It was in the show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I think it is very unlikely and would very much diminish his character if he were indeed a Targaryen.
    I think his character, in great parts, serves as a complement to Littlefinger's character. Where, Littlefinger is someone who used to be a no one, no noble birth, and who climbed the ladder, to make his own name. In contrast, there is Varys, who, if a Targaryen, would be someone who actively chose to hide such a noble identity, stripped of his manhood, his noble name, it was almost like he recreated his identity, and became 'no one of importance' in the Westerosi games, yet one who maneuvers the pieces quite a bit, like Littlefinger. A shadow on the walls. After all, power resides where men believes it resides. And if no one believes him to be a Targaryen, then no one sees him as powerful enough to be of any 'significant' importance, which has allowed him to play the game as he has, up until now. Infiltrate from the inside.

    I think it would enhance the motivation of his character, if he were a Targaryen. Otherwise, I am left wanting as to why, even before Danerys became who she is, Varys had spies trailing her progression. It was as if he knew she had potential. And if Varys is not a Targaryen, I don't see his character as someone who believes that just because a Targaryen girl still survives out there in the world, she is someone to spend resources on, to see if she has potential, solely based on a name.

    As for Jon's ice-splitting: Azor Ahai or Valyrian steel? I hope it is the first hint at the former.
    What is Azor Ahai?

    Edit: you answered ^, V

    As for your other point:
    Because what makes him so good is that he works for a greater good that does not primarily benefit himself.
    That's a great point regarding Varys. I see the same in him, and if my theory is correct, I can see him hoping that Dany has the potential to usurp all the bullshit that has become Westerosi, but he didn't act on it, until he sees her potential realized. It was enough to follow her, because of her name, but it was not enough for Varys to act, until he did, until Dany proved that she was worth fighting for.

  3. #1453

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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    I doubt it.



    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    Because what makes him so good is that he works for a greater good that does not primarily benefit himself. It would also remove all mystery still surrounding his past and motives.

    Azor Ahai forged his own sword. Where he came from is, I think, unknown.

  4. #1454

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I think his character, in great parts, serves as a complement to Littlefinger's character. Where, Littlefinger is someone who used to be a no one, no noble birth, and who climbed the ladder, to make his own name. In contrast, there is Varys, who, if a Targaryen, would be someone who actively chose to hide such a noble identity, stripped of his manhood, his noble name, it was almost like he recreated his identity, and became 'no one of importance' in the Westerosi games, yet one who maneuvers the pieces quite a bit, like Littlefinger. A shadow on the walls. After all, power resides where men believes it resides. And if no one believes him to be a Targaryen, then no one sees him as powerful enough to be of any 'significant' importance, which has allowed him to play the game as he has, up until now.

    I think it would enhance the motivation of his character, if he were a Targaryen. Otherwise, I am left wanting as to why, even before Danerys became who she is, Varys had spies trailing her progression. It was as if he knew she had potential. And if Varys is not a Targaryen, I don't see his character as someone who believes that just because a Targaryen girl still survives out there in the world, she is someone to spend resources on, to see if she has potential, solely based on a name.
    It is not impossible, but I do not believe it. There is one big reason I cannot tell you because the show has not revealed it yet and might not do so for quite some time (if ever). There are severall smaller ones:

    1. There are, as far as I know, no missing Targaryens. They are not so numerous that they could just vanish without someone missing them. All known Targaryens are either presumed dead or otherwise accounted for.
    2. Varys tells Tyrion his story. In the book, it is presented in a way that lends it the appearance of truth, revealed because Varys trusts Tyrion. I think Martin would have raised doubts about the story somewhere if it were indeed a fabrication; he usually gives hints.
    3. I think the only way Varys is a counterpart to Littlefinger is in that, while both maneuver with subtlety, Littlefinger is willing to ruin everything to get what he wants whereas Varys sacrifices all he might have for the greater good.
    4. For the reasons outlined by myself and Jennifer, it would just be in bad taste.
    5. Other reasons I am not interested enough to think of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    What is Azor Ahai?
    Someone who, if you have no idea who he is, is still supposed to be unknown. I chose this 'key word' so as to avoid spoiling things that might not be clear to show viewers yet.

  5. #1455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I guess my point is that they act SO diffferent (one having volition, one not) that to call them both zombies seems misleading, unless there was more in the books to justify that kind of grouping.

    I do understand that their personalities can change somewhat, though, correct?



    Of course their actual dialogues were good. Great, even.

    I want to say that one part of the scene I really liked was when Dani gently reaches over and takes the glass of wine out of Tyrion's hand, before he gets too drunk to make sense. She's not demeaning towards him, or demanding it (as Queen); it really came across as "I realize you have an issue here; but I value your opinion and need you, and it's not good for you, so I need you to stop both for yourself and me." She was really good with him, and he responds to it in that understanding. I don't think we've seen her free to be that GENTLE and full of grace in any of her actions; she's always had to be the tough leader. Going along with that, Tyrion actually sees her as strong without her having to prove it to him all the time.

    Another subtle thing is when Tyrion is standing next to Jorah, and when she asks Tyrion what he would do with him, Tyrion very quietly talks and walks up a few steps, just enough to separate Jorah from himself and seem like an advisor (since he's closer to her on level and there's more more intimacy with reduced distance), but not far enough or fast enough to make him seem threatening even if the guards do briefly react. It was just a beautiful stroke on his part. He "positions" himself to BE her advisor. He's just really damned good at reading situations and knowing just how much to assert himself and where to stop.



    Daenerys


    Tyrion
    Yeah....I think Tyrion is somebody Danerys needs, because he's familiar with court intrigue, even if he despises it. I think he made a mistake in King's Landing thinking he could win over people that would always have an issue with him because of his habits, mentality, and appearance. He thought he might be able to soften people who had no interest in softening, (even if it would have been to their own benefit). Danerys is different because she's interested in something other than power for the sake of power. Danerys will prove more receptive to his counsel, I think, and probably won't try to have him killed just for doing his job like he's supposed to.

    Tyrion needs Danerys because she gives him something to do other than drink himself into the gutter; acting as her advisor will allow him to use his strengths and give him a sense of purpose.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
    The vagabond who is rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes you once wore.

  6. #1456

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    Daenerys


    Tyrion
    This is an excellent summary of their motivations. I enjoyed reading this.

    I'd also add for Dany, that Tyrion's arrival coinciding so closely with the death of Barrister Selmy also worked in this duo's favour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    It is not impossible, but I do not believe it. There is one big reason I cannot tell you because the show has not revealed it yet and might not do so for quite some time (if ever). There are severall smaller ones:
    Hmmm, I'm intrigued but I want to remain unspoiled by the books, and let the story/show take me on its own tale, so I'll let this go.

    1. There are, as far as I know, no missing Targaryens. They are not so numerous that they could just vanish without someone missing them. All known Targaryens are either presumed dead or otherwise accounted for.
    2. Varys tells Tyrion his story. In the book, it is presented in a way that lends it the appearance of truth, revealed because Varys trusts Tyrion. I think Martin would have raised doubts about the story somewhere if it were indeed a fabrication; he usually gives hints.
    3. I think the only way Varys is a counterpart to Littlefinger is in that, while both maneuver with subtlety, Littlefinger is willing to ruin everything to get what he wants whereas Varys sacrifices all he might have for the greater good.
    4. For the reasons outlined by myself and Jennifer, it would just be in bad taste.
    5. Other reasons I am not interested enough to think of.
    #3 is definitely one of the most prominent contrast between Littlefinger and Varys. Littlefinger looks out for #1 at all cost, himself. Varys is dedicated to the success of the realm, even at the cost of his own position (hence, him fleeing with Tyrion, after realizing that there was nothing left for him in the sinking ship that is Westeros, and that he's better served elsewhere).

    I think Varys had a conversation with Tyrion about what he wants for the realm, I googled to find the exact quote from the show:

    “The seven kingdoms needs a ruler loved by millions with a powerful army and the right family name.” -Varys

    There's something to the last part that I can't let go of yet, as a well-placed hint. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, maybe not.

    I also think that one thing GoT has consistently shown is nothing and no one is black and white. Varys can be seen as noble, and fighting for a greater good of the realm, but to think that he will not have self-contained contradictions, makes him too holy/pure to be real, in the world of GoT and otherwise. This gives him a "flaw" of sorts. Although it might "cheapen" his ideal, it also makes him human.

    And, at least, for me, does not take away anything from my view of the character, and his goal of securing a good and fair ruler for the realm. (but this is getting into our ideals and moral outlook, as the audience, not ofc, the unfolding of a story)

  7. #1457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I also think that one thing GoT has consistently shown is nothing and no one is black and white. Varys can be seen as noble, and fighting for a greater good of the realm, but to think that he will not have self-contained contradictions, makes him too holy/pure to be real, in the world of GoT and otherwise. This gives him a "flaw" of sorts. Although it might "cheapen" his ideal, it also makes him human.
    Well, he did report on the whereabouts of Danerys to Robert in season 1 and created the assassination attempt. Although I wonder if that was purposely designed to fail.

    I think he may have backed Viserys (although he might not have known that Viserys was insane), and I think he only latched onto Danerys later on. The conversation Arya overheard in season 1 seemed to not mention Danerys at all. Varys definitely has a morally gray side to him. But Littlefinger is morally black. (This setting is Black and Grey Morality.)

    I also have to wonder if Varys and his pal Illyrio knew what would happen with the dragon eggs. Did they know they would hatch? Did they have any reason to believe that they were anything more than a rare and costly souvenir? Or is the re-emergence of dragons into the world something entirely unaccounted for in their plans?
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
    The vagabond who is rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes you once wore.

  8. #1458
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    Yeah....I think Tyrion is somebody Danerys needs, because he's familiar with court intrigue, even if he despises it. I think he made a mistake in King's Landing thinking he could win over people that would always have an issue with him because of his habits, mentality, and appearance. He thought he might be able to soften people who had no interest in softening, (even if it would have been to their own benefit).
    Yeah, we saw the breakdown of that dream during his trial for the murder he didn't commit (after risking his life and saving the city back in Season 2), resulting in his outrageous speech leading up to his demand for "trial by combat" since he realized he'd get no fair trial otherwise. He really is drinking a helluvalot, and while it seems a year later in our world, for him it really hasn't been that long in story weeks/months since he told off the crowd, had the combat trial, then escaped the dungeon killing his father, and hopped on a boat. No wonder he's just wanting to drink all the time.

    side note:
    I'm not sure what the age difference is in the books. Dani seems older beyond her years, and Tyrion younger, but in reality considering how long Robert was King (17 years), that means Cersei is at least in her mid-30's (and maybe a bit older?) since Jaime is her twin and old enough to have managed to earn a place in the King's Guard (where he eventually killed the Mad King) suggesting he was at least 20 or so, meaning Tyrion is probably 12-15 years older than Dani?

    IOW, is Tyrion old enough to seem like an uncle to her?

    EDIT: Also I just remembered that Tyrion made that harness for Bran Stark, so that he might ride again and not feel like a cripple. And he banished Jonas Slynt to the Wall after Slynt killed that baby girl (illegitimate) of Robert's. Tyrion has a heart for the disadvantaged and abused.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #1459

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    Also, in the epicness that is Ep 8, Arya's plot definitely gets overshadowed.

    I'd love to hear discussions about her direction. She was called out for fooling her own heart, when she lied about hating The Hound (and got a lashing for it).

    She's being trained to be an assassin. Given. While, Meryn Trant is coming to Braavos, along with Mace Tyrell. It's a given they will meet. One of her top hitlist marks. The meeting will be epic. Given.

    How will she ultimately converge with the other plot points? I'm inclined to believe that she will be the driving force for the Stark revenge (her not being able to fully give up her Stark identity/needle).

  10. #1460
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    It seems like Tyrion came along at a perfect time for Dany- she has just been acutely reminded of her need for competent advisors, after that "can't win" situation she found herself in recently with Mossador. She backed herself into a corner there, and I think now she recognizes that Tyrion could have helped her avoid it or find a way forward, since he has good instincts for handling the conflicting interests of competing factions.
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