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  1. #1371
    El Papagayo Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    I also thought it was interesting for Sansa to finally admit that Tyrion was kind to her, and gentle; she treated him like shit for awhile, then she had pity for him, but now we see that -- once she has time to process and get past her emotions -- she perceives clearly enough.
    The whole Ramsay thing won't last long. Someone will end up dead.
    Yeah.... I think she's going to end up being a lot more important than people would have expected.

    The Dorne stuff was completely underwhelming, almost embarrassingly so - the writing, the fighting, the timing, it was all so pathetic and fake. The girls just don't seem scary, they seem like girls playing at being warriors for some reason, even if they were good enough to hold off Bronn.
    I'm not really a fan of what they did with that storyline. Ellaria in particular has become extremely one-dimensional.... her POV in the book is entirely the opposite of what it is now, and the changes they made don't really make sense. They kind of drastically simplified that plot to the point where it's just kind of stupid. Everyone in Dorne except Doran now looks like a crazy idiot. Unlike with Sansa, what they did with Jaime really does come off as a clumsy hodgepodge... it very obviously looks like the result of trying to mash two distinct storylines together. With the exception of Doran, I feel like the Dornishmen have been robbed of any depth or complexity. Undoubtedly , they couldn't include a long lecture on the history of House Martell, but they could have come up with something better than this.
    And the King's Landing stuff just seemed like cheap soap opera and overwrought drama. There was no real surprise there, I knew Cersei had everything set up (just like she stacked the deck against Tyrion), and Olenna is crafty enough to have figured it out but conveniently did not. It was just rather pathetic. Tywin knew her well enough -- Cersei isn't stupid, but she's not nearly as clever as she believes she is, she's a one-trick pony.
    I got annoyed with Cersei's storyline in the book, too. I think the show is an improvement in that they've trimmed out a lot of the fat. Granted, Loras is another character that's really suffered in the transition from book to screen. What happens to him in the book is a lot better. This was just kind of hitting you over the head with "contemporary relevance!"

    Tyrion's storyline is also vastly, vastly improved over the books. I like his take-downs of Jorah and his bickering with Varys, and the fact that he's using his head to get himself out with schemes. In the book, he just spends most of it as a kind of depressed alcoholic and gets stuck in this boring romantic subplot with one of the dwarfs who was at Joffrey's wedding (I'm not kidding). Tyrion was actually the weakest part of Book 5 because of this. Here again, they wisely trimmed out most of the fat.

    So far, I think the Third Season was actually the weakest... it struck me as being a rather slow, aimless build-up to the Red Wedding, but that's how I felt about the first half of Book III, also. The revelations about Jaime never surprised me because I always saw the "Kingslayer" thing as bullshit. I did like the way they toyed with viewers about Ramsay and the Boltons, but Ramsay's introduction in the book is much better.
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  2. #1372
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    Yeah.... I think she's going to end up being a lot more important than people would have expected.
    I am so cool with that.

    About time a little ISFJ girl managed to actually rise into her full glory in a show like this, rather than just being someone's piddly floor scrubber. It's been kind of a wild ride to see her as a young teenager going through all her life crap and what it shapes her into. She will be formidable one day -- beautiful and terrible -- if she comes out of this.

    I hate how Ramsay can take something consensual and pervert it so badly.
    (And the scene is less about showing us something we didn't know about Ramsay -- we knew he was this bad -- and more about showing us what Sansa has become, and also as a catalyst to "breaking" the Reek persona. I think this would have destroyed Sansa a few years back... but she will rise above this. She won't be broken. She will either win or die.)

    I'm not really a fan of what they did with that storyline. Ellaria in particular has become extremely one-dimensional.... her POV in the book is entirely the opposite of what it is now, and the changes they made don't really make sense. They kind of drastically simplified that plot to the point where it's just kind of stupid. Everyone in Dorne except Doran now looks like a crazy idiot. Unlike with Sansa, what they did with Jaime really does come off as a clumsy hodgepodge... it very obviously looks like the result of trying to mash two distinct storylines together. With the exception of Doran, I feel like the Dornishmen have been robbed of any depth or complexity. Undoubtedly , they couldn't include a long lecture on the history of House Martell, but they could have come up with something better than this.
    Yeah, they all just seem so caricature to me right now. I liked Ellaria last season, now she just seems dumb. So much lack of nuance. Doran really is the only Dorne I like, and he's stuck in a chair. (Well, Jonas brother wannabe Tristan is kind of refreshing in just being a nice teenage boy who wants to kiss Myrcella...)

    ANyway, it's just all below par what I expect from the show, unfortunately. I wonder who wrote/directed this... have they done other episodes? I felt like I was watching bad Xena with the Sand Snake stuff; should I be impressed that they held their own against an experienced sellsword and the former best swordsman in Westeros, or should I be disappointed that they suck so bad that three of them couldn't kill a one-handed man and an aging swordsman? There was no subtlety. Why did all this happen in pure daylight, in the middle of the garden? And I love how conveniently the guy supposed to be guarding Myrcella an hour earlier isn't anywhere to be seen except to conveniently stop the fight with guards later. This was supposed to be a cool little suberfuge mission with Jaime that could cost him his life, with stealth and suspense, and instead it was just fluff crap and the Sand Snakes are just petulant girls.


    I got annoyed with Cersei's storyline in the book, too. I think the show is an improvement in that they've trimmed out a lot of the fat. Granted, Loras is another character that's really suffered in the transition from book to screen. What happens to him in the book is a lot better. This was just kind of hitting you over the head with "contemporary relevance!"
    Yeah, anytime they want to drop all the overt gay stuff (and gay oppression by the church), I'm cool with that. It's just cliche in how it has been handled.

    Tyrion's storyline is also vastly, vastly improved over the books. I like his take-downs of Jorah and his bickering with Varys, and the fact that he's using his head to get himself out with schemes. In the book, he just spends most of it as a kind of depressed alcoholic and gets stuck in this boring romantic subplot with one of the dwarfs who was at Joffrey's wedding (I'm not kidding). Tyrion was actually the weakest part of Book 5 because of this. Here again, they wisely trimmed out most of the fat.
    Glad to hear this much at least, although Dinklage is such a strong actor that I think he makes Tyrion much easier to write for -- you can imagine easily throwing him into various situations and knowing what he'd say and do, the lines just roll out. They are really struggling with some of the other subplots.

    So far, I think the Third Season was actually the weakest... it struck me as being a rather slow, aimless build-up to the Red Wedding, but that's how I felt about the first half of Book III, also. The revelations about Jaime never surprised me because I always saw the "Kingslayer" thing as bullshit. I did like the way they toyed with viewers about Ramsay and the Boltons, but Ramsay's introduction in the book is much better.
    I think I was absorbing so much detail at the time, I don't remember much of it except for Jaime losing his hand + the Red Wedding.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #1373
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah, they all just seem so caricature to me right now. I liked Ellaria last season, now she just seems dumb. So much lack of nuance. Doran really is the only Dorne I like, and he's stuck in a chair. (Well, Jonas brother wannabe Tristan is kind of refreshing in just being a nice teenage boy who wants to kiss Myrcella...)

    ANyway, it's just all below par what I expect from the show, unfortunately. I wonder who wrote/directed this... have they done other episodes? I felt like I was watching bad Xena with the Sand Snake stuff; should I be impressed that they held their own against an experienced sellsword and the former best swordsman in Westeros, or should I be disappointed that they suck so bad that three of them couldn't kill a one-handed man and an aging swordsman? There was no subtlety. Why did all this happen in pure daylight, in the middle of the garden? And I love how conveniently the guy supposed to be guarding Myrcella an hour earlier isn't anywhere to be seen except to conveniently stop the fight with guards later. This was supposed to be a cool little suberfuge mission with Jaime that could cost him his life, with stealth and suspense, and instead it was just fluff crap and the Sand Snakes are just petulant girls.
    Brian Cogman, who in my opinion has emerged as one of the strongest writers of the show, wrote episodes 5 and 6. It's tough to say if he wrote the Dorne scenes, though, since they move stuff around all the time. Either way, this was pretty rough. It reminds me of the scene last season where Yara failed to rescue Theon and ran away from Shirtless Ramsey.

    I mean... Jamie tried to rescue Myrcella, in broad daylight, with Prince Doran almost certainly watching them from his balcony above the Water Gardens. This is one of those things I'm going to try and not think about too much, and hope that it takes us to interesting plot development down the road.
    Likes Totenkindly, Ivy liked this post

  4. #1374
    El Papagayo Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Brian Cogman, who in my opinion has emerged as one of the strongest writers of the show, wrote episodes 5 and 6. It's tough to say if he wrote the Dorne scenes, though, since they move stuff around all the time. Either way, this was pretty rough. It reminds me of the scene last season where Yara failed to rescue Theon and ran away from Shirtless Ramsey.
    Oh yeah, that was another stupid addition that went nowhere. I was intrigued after they dropped that plot point in the season finale of season 3, and then when that shoe finally dropped, it was a big letdown. Sometimes they nail it out of the park with these additions, like pretty much anything involving Sansa or Brienne. Other times, they do something pointless that feels forced and artificial. I'd put the Craster's Keep stuff in the middle.

    I'm wondering if the rest of the Greyjoys are going to come into play at all here. But then, everything on the Iron Islands is thrown off and set on a different course.

    I mean... Jamie tried to rescue Myrcella, in broad daylight, with Prince Doran almost certainly watching them from his balcony above the Water Gardens. This is one of those things I'm going to try and not think about too much, and hope that it takes us to interesting plot development down the road.
    Not to mention the shitty security they had. They could have at least tried to make sneaking into the Water Gardens look difficult. And you mean to tell me that the Sand Snakes just happened to execute their plan at the the same time Jaime showed up?
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  5. #1375
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    Not to mention the shitty security they had. They could have at least tried to make sneaking into the Water Gardens look difficult. And you mean to tell me that the Sand Snakes just happened to execute their plan at the the same time Jaime showed up?
    Yup. The entire sequence/timing/setting/framing of that scene was terrible, terrible, terrible.

    And there was all that hype about the Sand Snakes too.
    They really haven't done much at all yet this season.

    As a side note, I noticed that someone got sliced with a spear tip near the end of that fight, but I missed who it was. Did anyone notice that? I hope we're not gonna rehash the "poison" thing again.

    EDIT: Nominations for best lines of the episode.
    I have two submissions:

    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #1376
    El Papagayo Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yup. The entire sequence/timing/setting/framing of that scene was terrible, terrible, terrible.

    And there was all that hype about the Sand Snakes too.
    They really haven't done much at all yet this season.
    They were more interesting in the book. Only one of them was really a Xena type. One was into poison; another one was kind of a diplomat/spy; and yet another one was kind of an intellectual but could handle a bow and arrow. The other four are too young to come into play. The show just made them all Xena.

    As a side note, I noticed that someone got sliced with a spear tip near the end of that fight, but I missed who it was. Did anyone notice that? I hope we're not gonna rehash the "poison" thing again.
    What do you mean? I can't remember, did they give an indication that Oberyn's spear was poisoned in the show?


    I like Tyrion's reaction to the look of the slavers when he mentioned that a great warrior wasn't present. I can't remember the wording, but it was essentially "of course not me."
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
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  7. #1377
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    They were more interesting in the book. Only one of them was really a Xena type. One was into poison; another one was kind of a diplomat/spy; and yet another one was kind of an intellectual but could handle a bow and arrow. The other four are too young to come into play. The show just made them all Xena.
    Well, it wasn't just that bit that was "Xena" like, it was the way the scene played out too... It just wasn't handled seriously or sensibly, and of course no one got hurt in any obvious way.

    What do you mean? I can't remember, did they give an indication that Oberyn's spear was poisoned in the show?
    I don't think they gave one as clear as they gave with the Mountain/Viper duel (when we watch the squire obviously wiping down the blade repeatedly). Here it's just that she's using her father's weapon, he used poison again his enemies, and they showed someone getting scratched at the end on the arm I think.

    Wouldn't be shocking if Obara or whoever she is took a lesson from daddy, but I have no idea if it meant anything.

    ....

    Oh, head-slaver... whassisname from Lost (?), he seems to get pulled into these kinds of fan-furvor shows....
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #1378
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    Religious institutions seem to be annoying even in novels.
    .

  9. #1379
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    Religious institutions seem to be annoying even in novels.
    Hunchback of Notre Dame
    Judge Frollo: "Beauty is only skin-deep, and Quasimodo's a great guy, trust me!"
    Crowd: "Awwww, what a guy!"

    The Scarlet Letter
    Parishioners: "Did you guys love each other? Love is beautiful, how could celebrating it ever be wrong?" *board elects Dimmesdale back for another five-year contract*

    (et al)


    ... some books have great spiritual themes though. (Brothers Karamazov, Les Miserables, etc.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #1380
    El Papagayo Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Hunchback of Notre Dame
    Judge Frollo: "Beauty is only skin-deep, and Quasimodo's a great guy, trust me!"
    Crowd: "Awwww, what a guy!"

    The Scarlet Letter
    Parishioners: "Did you guys love each other? Love is beautiful, how could celebrating it ever be wrong?" *board elects Dimmesdale back for another five-year contract*

    (et al)


    ... some books have great spiritual themes though. (Brothers Karamazov, Les Miserables, etc.)
    Les Miserables.... who can forget the conflict between Javert & Valjean? Granted, I haven't read the book.


    Oh, head-slaver... whassisname from Lost (?), he seems to get pulled into these kinds of fan-furvor shows....
    You mean, the guy who played Ecko?
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