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Thread: Game of Thrones!

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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    That's an excellent point, although it should be noted that Mace Tyrell is a foppish fool. I don't remember if his wife died in childbirth, but she never really showed up in the narrative. Maybe the way they were raised was Olenna's doing.
    Yeah, although it makes you wonder why Olenna didn't raise MACE differently... although perhaps the father was involved and prevented Mace from having his mother's cunning. Still, some people just are born without much political savvy and Mace is really not that sly. It was rather embarassing watching how he's been played so far, including with Tyrion's trial, and how he gushed over being asked to be Master of Coin by Cersie in S5E2. Like... come on dude... grow some sense. I think he's likely to be a half-decent person, but I find myself not able to respect him regardless.

    Really, the funny thing is that Loras and Margery are, in terms of public appearance and reputation, anyway, everything Tywin would have liked Jaime and Cersei to be. Loras is seen as an excellent tourney knight and is considered to be gallant, while Jaime is loathed. Margery is also much more popular than Cersei.
    True. I was going to comment on Loras' propensity for those of the, uh, male persuasion as a possible turnoff for Tywin; but as discussed, in everything VISIBLE, Loras is actually quite accomplished and Tywin was fine with marrying Cersie to him despite the rumors because his appearance was noble and it would have cemented the houses. As long as people did what they were required to do and presented the image they were required to present, then Tywin was pleased; it's the reason he could recognize Tyrion's mental superiority while still loathing him and being unwilling to give him any public face with the family. As Tyrion said in the very episode, "All dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah, although it makes you wonder why Olenna didn't raise MACE differently... although perhaps the father was involved and prevented Mace from having his mother's cunning. Still, some people just are born without much political savvy and Mace is really not that sly. It was rather embarassing watching how he's been played so far, including with Tyrion's trial, and how he gushed over being asked to be Master of Coin by Cersie in S5E2. Like... come on dude... grow some sense. I think he's likely to be a half-decent person, but I find myself not able to respect him regardless.
    Grandfather Tyrell may or may not have been bumped off by Olenna (certainly, she's capable of murder). It's mentioned in the books that he rode his horse off a cliff, which seems somewhat suspicious. My guess is that he was probably a dim bulb, either way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Good points, and with half the board cleared I've been wondering about this since GRRM has tried to state for so long he was avoiding tropes / trying to avoid a predictable 'good wins' ending.

    It does look like the deck is being stacked to set things up for the return of the Targaryans + some kind of joining with the Stark family to provide a "legitimate rule" where the "bad guys" aren't going to win. In one sense, people hate stories where there isn't a happier resolution; I doubt Lord of the Rings would be so popular if Sauron or Saruman had won, the story would likely have continued until somehow they were overthrown. But tropes exist for a reason, I guess. [Does anyone really want Stannis to be king?]
    Yeah I agree, I honestly can't see another way other then a Jon/Daenarys joint rule. But I do believe he will avoid the heroic win ending. Daenarys arriving across the sea in the only functioning navy standing *cough* iron islanders *cough*. Proceeding to having some titanic battle with who ever is still standing, and marching to the wall; saving the day. Maybe the white walkers will break through the wall, butchering their way across Westeros. Daenarys turning up late, only in time to hold part of the island. A pyrrhic victory would mitigate the 'good wins' whilst still giving readers a satisfactory ending.

    Stannis..... no not really.

    Interesting that Jon wears black all the time and Daenerys wears white... we've got Yin/Yang spinning around and around there, except with a Western flair.
    Yes exactly one is experience, and the other divine right.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I'd say Jon Snow acts like a 16-year-old.
    You are right he is 16 in the books isn't he. Having a guy in his mid twenties plays him confused me.

    I'm inclined to disagree.

    I'd argue that Danerys also goes on a quest. Don't the same things happen to her? I don't see Danerys avoiding contamination at all. She burned people alive and fucks Daario!
    I should probably explain what I mean by contamination. Has Daenarys ever had to make a decision that wasn't black and white? Consider the first of your examples; she burnt someone who manipulated her into terrible acts. She is clothed in righteousness, where are her shades of grey? As for Darrio when he inevitably betrays her, her retribution shall again be righteous.

    Whereas Jon on the other hand in the microcosm of the wall has to prove he is different from everyone else who had or has power in Westeros. That’s why he has to make mistakes, and screw up so that one day he will be the wise king that Westeros deserves.

    I say this while holding in reserve that Daenarys plot line could change significantly. Perhaps her story is one of innocence lost. The way power has changed all in GOT. In which case the rampant deus ex machina is more an act of keeping her story simplified so the contrast before the change/fall is far more poignant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I like it!

    I actually have thought the same about Danerys, and how things seem to work out for her, in the end, always. Even if there are "prices" she pays. Her scenes are painful to watch, in that regard. There's no falling. Just rise, rise, rise. I'm just not that invested. I'm hoping her two dragons turn on her, because she kept them locked up.

    There's this sense that her resolve comes from an external source, 'ought to', than an internal source, 'want to'. I don't think she's really owned her role/position yet. For all her steel resolve, decision-making, and immovable moral code, there's a tension within her, like she truly doesn't buy into her own confidence yet.
    Yes this is one of my reservations about Daenarys. GRRM seems to adhere to lex talonis (eye for an eye). Every character gets what he deserves (bad and good). The obvious example being Theon Greyjoy* his vice was a thirst for power and prestige, and as punishment it was cut from him. Daenarys hasn't earned the throne yet has she? But again the standard rules don't seem to apply to her.


    *Though given how disproportionate his punishment was I expect really good things to happen to him. Actually I had better put the last part under a spoiler, for those who havent read the latest book.



    As for the ultimate conclusion to the Game of Thrones, there's the basic and simple question. How can a game of thrones end? Well....when you stop playing the game. It might just be that the throne itself will be melted away, with each "kingdom" ruling their own, with a ruler chosen by the people. United we stand (against the whitewalkers), and all that american pie goodness.
    Easy the white walkers can roll down Westeros and kill everyone, now that would be a great ending.
    At the time they cut me free. I was brimming with defiance. Doctors looking down on me. Breaking every law of science.
    How'd I ever end up here? A latent strain of color blindness. Then it seemed to dawn on me. Haemoglobin is the key

  4. #1314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    Easy the white walkers can roll down Westeros and kill everyone, now that would be a great ending.
    It's an ending Poe could love: "And Darkness and Decay and the [White] Death held illimitable dominion over all."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post


    You are right he is 16 in the books isn't he. Having a guy in his mid twenties plays him confused me.
    That's a standard thing in television and film though. Most "teen dramas" consist of actors who are quite obviously in their twenties. I do think some of the characters are supposed to be aged up a bit, but I'm not sure by how much. I think Jon Snow is maybe supposed to start the show as a 19-year-old.


    I should probably explain what I mean by contamination. Has Daenarys ever had to make a decision that wasn't black and white? Consider the first of your examples; she burnt someone who manipulated her into terrible acts. She is clothed in righteousness, where are her shades of grey? As for Darrio when he inevitably betrays her, her retribution shall again be righteous.
    She seems like someone who is capable of learning, though, or at least listening to the advice of people with more experience.

    Whereas Jon on the other hand in the microcosm of the wall has to prove he is different from everyone else who had or has power in Westeros. That’s why he has to make mistakes, and screw up so that one day he will be the wise king that Westeros deserves.
    I hope so. Unlike Robb, who had a sense of right and wrong but tended not to question the rules and assumptions of the society he lived in, he has an approach more focused on the bigger picture. This should help him, unlike Robb who couldn't conceive of disloyalty in his own ranks.




    Yes this is one of my reservations about Daenarys. GRRM seems to adhere to lex talonis (eye for an eye). Every character gets what he deserves (bad and good). The obvious example being Theon Greyjoy* his vice was a thirst for power and prestige, and as punishment it was cut from him. Daenarys hasn't earned the throne yet has she? But again the standard rules don't seem to apply to her.
    Well, I'm curious as to what will be the push that will get her to head towards Westeros.
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I hope so. Unlike Robb, who had a sense of right and wrong but tended not to question the rules and assumptions of the society he lived in, he has an approach more focused on the bigger picture. This should help him, unlike Robb who couldn't conceive of disloyalty in his own ranks.
    Freaking idealism.

    Not sure if it was just being unable to conceive of disloyalty per se, but at least the sense that just because you happen to do what you think is right and act with integrity doesn't mean that others will give you a pass in the end and that somehow things will work out as you want. There's a huge cost to taking definitive action in the face of disagreement and the cost might be far larger than what you can live with. His one-two whammy of (1) breaking his oath to Frey by marrying for love and (2) punishing his own supporters for going against his wishes, putting him in a precarious position where he had to trust a guy he had screwed over. [Note: Number 2 is exactly what Daenerys just did, although we have yet to see what the damage is. Ouch.]

    There's always a balance to be struck between sticking to your guns directly and negotiating your own values with the values of others to find a way through.

    Robb unfortunately had little room for error; his first real lesson was a fatal one. Daenerys is fortunate enough that she's had quite a number of "smaller" exercises, plus quite a number of wise advisors to help her learn from each experience. She's at least in a place where she's now confused, realizing how tenuous her position could be if she doesn't learn how to get her stuff together... and that means she can adjust. Her exile ironically has taken her out of the most dangerous parts of the world for her -- Westeros. She has had space to learn and build resources.

    Well, I'm curious as to what will be the push that will get her to head towards Westeros.
    I suspect it will involve (1) interaction with Varys and Tyrion, (2) Selmy and others who believe her to be the rightful heir to seething pit of depravity and chaos that has become Westeros, and (3) possibly losing her power in the land she is in, and maybe she just cuts her losses and moves to something she better understands.

    (Besides, she's got dragons.)

    Still, GRRM is probably good for a few more kinks in the story.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #1317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Freaking idealism.

    Not sure if it was just being unable to conceive of disloyalty per se, but at least the sense that just because you happen to do what you think is right and act with integrity doesn't mean that others will give you a pass in the end and that somehow things will work out as you want. There's a huge cost to taking definitive action in the face of disagreement and the cost might be far larger than what you can live with. His one-two whammy of (1) breaking his oath to Frey by marrying for love and (2) punishing his own supporters for going against his wishes, putting him in a precarious position where he had to trust a guy he had screwed over. [Note: Number 2 is exactly what Daenerys just did, although we have yet to see what the damage is. Ouch.]
    Well, Robb also said in season 2 that he trusts his bannermen with his life, just not with Jaime's. So, while there's the issue of the Karstarks as you mentioned, it also seems to never have to occurred him that the Boltons might not be trustworthy, because the way the system was "supposed to work" was that vassals have loyalty to their lord. Ultimately, the Boltons were, along with the Freys, the architects of the Red Wedding, even if their role was less obvious. Bolton was betraying Robb as far back as season 2, it's just that Robb didn't know that. He saw an opportunity to twist the situation to his own benefit, and he did so. Remember that he told Robb he was sending his bastard to Winterfell, and that's exactly what he did. What he didn't tell Robb was that he would put the castle to the torch.

    There's always a balance to be struck between sticking to your guns directly and negotiating your own values with the values of others to find a way through.
    Yes, it's a tightrope act for sure.



    I suspect it will involve (1) interaction with Varys and Tyrion, (2) Selmy and others who believe her to be the rightful heir to seething pit of depravity and chaos that has become Westeros, and (3) possibly losing her power in the land she is in, and maybe she just cuts her losses and moves to something she better understands.
    What happens when she meets Varys and Tyrion will depend, I think, on whether or not Tyrion will still believe that "the past is shit, and the future will be shit." The other factors that you mentioned will probably also play a role.

    The books have a few parts about the lore and history of Westeros that the show has understandably omitted for time. They seem to echo things going on in other parts of the narrative. There's a figure mentioned called Nymeria, and I suspect that Danerys will end up playing the role of Nymeria in some fashion.
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    Good points about Robb and the bannermen, etc. And yes, I did momentarily forget about how supportive Bolton seemed; I remembered being caught off-guard as a viewer at the time, although I'm not sure whether it was my being fairly new to the story (I watched a lot of episodes back to back to back and it was hard to keep track of people on that first pass) or whether it really just came out of the blue.

    Even Catelyn was surprised when things started to go down. She did have a sense of forboding since I think she did advise Robb not to punish Karstark, but I think her first clue was hearing the "Rains of Castamere" boot up with the band.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Good points about Robb and the bannermen, etc. And yes, I did momentarily forget about how supportive Bolton seemed; I remembered being caught off-guard as a viewer at the time, although I'm not sure whether it was my being fairly new to the story (I watched a lot of episodes back to back to back and it was hard to keep track of people on that first pass) or whether it really just came out of the blue.

    Even Catelyn was surprised when things started to go down. She did have a sense of forboding since I think she did advise Robb not to punish Karstark, but I think her first clue was hearing the "Rains of Castamere" boot up with the band.
    In the book, when Robb Stark first needs to negotiate with Walder Frey to cross the Trident, Roose Bolton is present. In a delicioulsly ironic bit, he warns Robb not to enter. I was sort of taken by surprise, too. There was something about him that seemed off, but he seemed incredibly loyal to Robb. I kept on trying to convince myself that he was still working for Robb in some fashion, despite the mounting evidence that this was not so.

    In the books, Roose Bolton has taken Harrenhal "for Robb", and Arya serves as Roose's cupbearer, not Tywin. The groundwork was being laid, yet I refused to see it. I assumed that the Red Wedding referred to Joffrey's wedding, not Robb's uncle's (how the hell could Robb's uncle be important?).
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    In the book, when Robb Stark first needs to negotiate with Walder Frey to cross the Trident, Roose Bolton is present. In a delicioulsly ironic bit, he warns Robb not to enter. I was sort of taken by surprise, too. There was something about him that seemed off, but he seemed incredibly loyal to Robb. I kept on trying to convince myself that he was still working for Robb in some fashion, despite the mounting evidence that this was not so.
    Yeah, I went back and reread the synopsis for some prior episodes and realized there were small clues in the show -- like when he comes back after whassisname cuts off Jaime's hand and it's obvious he's in charge, and "Why did you do that, since you damaged a valuable hostage?" and the like. Not enough to give it away, it could just be pragmatism, but just enough to make you think. I just didn't realize who he was at the time, I was still figuring out the Cast of Thousands. Apparently they were trying to keep Roose's duplicity under wraps.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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