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  1. #1271
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    It wouldn't be hard to find more stuff about the show that is iffy, but Garrett made specific claims about the (loose) historical representations being wrong and racist.
    Yeah, I'll clarify that I'm very open to it and I see some examples (like Daenerys) that can be read that way; just wasn't seeing actual cogent points or support for them made at that time. If we want to discuss them, let's bring up specific issues to discuss.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #1272
    El Papagayo Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post

    I don't want to put words in anyone’s mouth, but the obvious one to me is Khal Drogo. Who is a version of Atilla the Hun, the Free Cities being a parallel sort of to the Western Roman Empire. In the show and from what I remember of the books he is kind of a brutish savage might is right and such. Whereas IRL a clever calculated mercenary is probably a more accurate description. A man who managed to reduce both East and West Empire to having to pay exorbitant tributes. On top of expanding an empire that stretched from Kazakhstan to Germany.

    That’s the one is stuck out at me when I started to watch the show. The savage steppe nomad who communicates mainly in grunts and aggressive looks. Yet unacknowledged is the fact he manages to maintain what constitutes a mobile city, and a very successful one at that.
    I did actually notice this aspect of it, and I was surprised that few people had made that criticism. I thought it was interesting that there were more criticisms of the Season 3 finale, when the Dothraki seemed like a bigger deal to me. This is frequently how I feel about these accusations; to me it looks like people are constantly pointing fingers in the wrong direction. Maybe I'm not fully qualified to judge such things, but the Dothraki jumped out at me, and went uncriticized by many.

    But, for people who are criticizing this trope, I suggest that they be patient. This storyline isn't done with yet. I guess I've encountered enough people who make criticisms of art work and media as being racist who frequently take things out of context and cherry-pick stuff to make their point that I've become skeptical to such claims.

    I'll engage in an honest, good-faith argument about stereotyping any day. If it's tumblr-style nonsense about just trying to make me feel guilty, I'm not interested in that. What I am interested in getting out of the topic is an intellectual understanding of the issue in question.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
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  3. #1273
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah, I'll clarify that I'm very open to it and I see some examples (like Daenerys) that can be read that way; just wasn't seeing actual cogent points or support for them made at that time. If we want to discuss them, let's bring up specific issues to discuss.
    What I mean by replicating a skewed version of history is that he says his fiction is based on historical events. But this is the worst thing a fiction writer can do according to hawthorn,
    "i shut the door and in the morning
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  4. #1274
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    What I mean by replicating a skewed version of history is that he says his fiction is based on historical events. But this is the worst thing a fiction writer can do according to hawthorn,
    Hmmm. Why does it matter what Hawthorne says, honestly?

    The question is, what is he doing now, and how is it working / not working effectively and why?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  5. #1275
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Hmmm. Why does it matter what Hawthorne says, honestly?

    The question is, what is he doing now, and how is it working / not working effectively and why?
    my reason for reaching back to Hawthorn, who is now deceased but known as one of the greatest author's ever, is something akin to what a philosopher once said: "Would you ask a shipbuilder to bake a cake or would you ask a cook to build a ship? Nay....me thinks not Charlie."
    "i shut the door and in the morning
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    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  6. #1276
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Actually, it is based (VERRRRY loosely- "inspired" is probably a better word) on the War of the Roses. Lannister:Lancaster::Stark:York. I still don't see how it's racist, though.
    It's not overtly racist that's why I said, "dare I say racist." It's more just a more eurocentric reappropriated fictional representation. It works for me but if I'm truly honest, compared to malazan, it is more eurocentric...Malazan is more neutral.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.
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  7. #1277
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Wait, are you talking about Nathaniel Hawthorne? He wrote historical fiction. I'm really unclear about your point, Garrett.

  8. #1278
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Wait, are you talking about Nathaniel Hawthorne? He wrote historical fiction. I'm really unclear about your point, Garrett.
    Yes...I am speaking of Nathaniel Hawthrone...when I get home I will post the name of the Essay...it might be tomorrow...but in it he talks about the three types of fictions and the two qualities of fiction...the three types are biography, autobiography, and omniscient, and the two qualities are truth based on outright lie based.

    I'm paraphrasing so excuse my feeble number crunching brain...I am out of my element but....It strikes a chord with me.

    I have read fiction which feels like being shrunken and placed inside a doll house (false, cheap, synthetic fiction) albeit much of it is written masterfully with a penning on par of Dickens.

    And then I have read crude basic writing but which is bone chillingly real and useful like some Stephen King books or leaves me shrived and huddled in a corner, exorcising my demons, and firming me up like a cold wind slap before a long trot.

    I suppose some of it is subjective but in my opinion, I feel like Malazan is good and healthy food where as Game of Thrones is healthier than Harry Potter but not healthier than Malazan if that makes sense.....that is how it is to me but I can see it being that way for others...

    I know when I read Malazan I am ready to live...when I read Game of Thrones I am left feeling like there is something more that needs to be there in order for the Green Screen to fade.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  9. #1279

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    Garrot is right about one thing: The Malazan Book is better than A Song of Ice and Fire. But his reasoning is ludicrous.

  10. #1280
    El Papagayo Osprey's Avatar
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    So, what should Danerys have done? Is there a right choice she could have made?

    And what are your thoughts about Doran Martell? Probably not enough information for most of you, but in the book he came off like an INTP. I thought that scene was really interesting, for some reason.

    What do you think about the stuff concerning Sansa?

    I think those two bits are interrelated themes. The thing that's right in the long term might be incredibly unpopular... they both touched on that.

    My favorite part of last night's episode, though, was Sam roasting Janos Slynt. That was perfect.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
    The vagabond who is rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes you once wore


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