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  1. #1261
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    I don't know if I am only noticing it now or it's actually is a subtle change, but... I don't remember them using the modesty bedsheet trope in previous seasons like they did in the last 4 episodes.

  2. #1262
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    I alluded to that in my post - he claims to be replicating a skewed version of history but this is not so in his books and in fact quite offensive to those of us who share history the he claims to have used from non-caucasian people...total lies even in fictional form.

    This is what I mean by MArtin not being honest in his words....the way he represents certain people of history is wrong even in his transmogrified historically inspired interpretations, and dare I say racist.
    whut

    Honestly, I think you're drawing conclusions that don't really exist. It's not historical. Your comments about GRRM as a person also seem dubious, as things you were claiming about his past or involvement haven't even been accurate. (and I say that as a non-book-reader.)

    Anyway, if you want a truly "racist" fantasy to get worked up about, go watch Bakshi's "Fire and Ice." It's audaciously racist and sexist. IMO.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #1263
    Senior Member Eskimo2's Avatar
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    Worth it? Yes? No?

  4. #1264
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Actually, it is based (VERRRRY loosely- "inspired" is probably a better word) on the War of the Roses. Lannister:Lancaster::Stark:York. I still don't see how it's racist, though.
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  5. #1265

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    Worth it? Yes? No?
    Game of Thrones/ASoIaF? So worth it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Actually, it is based (VERRRRY loosely- "inspired" is probably a better word) on the War of the Roses. Lannister:Lancaster::Stark:York. I still don't see how it's racist, though.
    Perhaps he's referring to the treatment of the non-Westerosi peoples.

  6. #1266
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Maybe. I'd be open to hearing it.
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  7. #1267
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    *Cough*
    Entire tribes and city states of barbaric ethnic people fall in love with an Aryan beauty that saves them from their barbaric ways
    *Cough*
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  8. #1268
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Well, that's fair. A bit of "white savior" complex.

    Specifically, though, I wanted to hear how GoT's historical inspiration is racist, a la this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    I alluded to that in my post - he claims to be replicating a skewed version of history but this is not so in his books and in fact quite offensive to those of us who share history the he claims to have used from non-caucasian people...total lies even in fictional form.

    This is what I mean by MArtin not being honest in his words....the way he represents certain people of history is wrong even in his transmogrified historically inspired interpretations, and dare I say racist.
    It wouldn't be hard to find more stuff about the show that is iffy, but Garrett made specific claims about the (loose) historical representations being wrong and racist.
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  9. #1269
    Biting Shards Dr Mobius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nos4a2 View Post

    I read the first book of the Malazan series, but couldn’t get into it enough to invest in reading the entire series.
    Presuming you're looking for other opinions on the subject? I can address some of the questions as to the Malazan series. I've read nine of the ten books.

    Malazan is about twice as long as Martin’s epic will be, which it often seems to be compared to in a which is better sense. I know Malazan’s hardcore readers think it’s a work of genius, and it may well be.
    Er MBotF is 10 books where as last time I checked ASoIaF was going to be 7 books, high fantasy and ridiculously long series seem to go hand and hand. Yeah I honestly don't think that they're that comparable its kind of like comparing the Beatles to the Sex Pistols, you could but it does both a disservice.

    The books seem to have found a permanent place on the Barnes & Noble shelves in any case, though I have yet to meet anyone in person who has read them all. It’s far more convoluted, with a lot more characters to keep track of than Game of Thrones. And the world-building is encyclopedic, in the vein of reading encyclopedias cover to cover (for me this gets in the way of the story). Also, it’s even grayer than Martin’s epic, with no strictly “good” or “evil” characters—it’s all relative to POV. What it comes down to is the story and characters didn’t come alive for me, which is essential in reading a long epic series.
    I suppose to really understand it you have to forget the standard fantasy model, forget the kitchen boy to hero world-building we expect of fantasy titles. Perhaps real life fantasy might be a better name for it. The first thing you have to stop doing is being encyclopedic, there is simply far to much going on for anyone who isn't crazy levels of obsessed can retain. You are not a participant, you are an observer, which is drastically different from most fantasy novels, how many series have you read knowing full well how the series was going to end? Hell I could write out how I expect ASoIaF to end, and it would surprise absolutely no one. I cannot say the same for the MBotF........... and honestly I adore that; its a story but its not mine, its all Steven Eriksons.

    But I suspect the thing that makes this series special to me is the the level of respect he gives readers. He never tries to lead you, there are no characters he forces you to like he makes them human, real and lets you think what you will of them. Yet despite this there are characters I love, hate, hold in contempt, admire, am bewildered by....... much like in real life.

    This is not to say they are everyone’s cup of tea; they are absolutely not. But if you can let go of preconceptions, the ride is a lot of fun.

    Honestly, I wonder how anyone can read Malazan and still have time for a life. Maybe you can fill me in on that.
    Oh dear this post is passive aggressive snark. Note to self read post thoroughly before bothering to respond

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Actually, it is based (VERRRRY loosely- "inspired" is probably a better word) on the War of the Roses. Lannister:Lancaster::Stark:York. I still don't see how it's racist, though.
    I always thought that the Starks where a dead ringer for the Percy Family. So powerful they remained Catholic after the formation of the Anglican Church (Old Gods/Ways). Plus there involvement with the War of Roses bears some parallels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Well, that's fair. A bit of "white savior" complex.

    Specifically, though, I wanted to hear how GoT's historical inspiration is racist, a la this post:



    It wouldn't be hard to find more stuff about the show that is iffy, but Garrett made specific claims about the (loose) historical representations being wrong and racist.
    I don't want to put words in anyone’s mouth, but the obvious one to me is Khal Drogo. Who is a version of Atilla the Hun, the Free Cities being a parallel sort of to the Western Roman Empire. In the show and from what I remember of the books he is kind of a brutish savage might is right and such. Whereas IRL a clever calculated mercenary is probably a more accurate description. A man who managed to reduce both East and West Empire to having to pay exorbitant tributes. On top of expanding an empire that stretched from Kazakhstan to Germany.

    That’s the one is stuck out at me when I started to watch the show. The savage steppe nomad who communicates mainly in grunts and aggressive looks. Yet unacknowledged is the fact he manages to maintain what constitutes a mobile city, and a very successful one at that.
    The two would never be separated, and some say they are together still, up amongst the stars where hamsters are giants and men become legends.
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  10. #1270
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    ^Exactly what I was looking for- very good point.

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