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Game of Thrones!

Totenkindly

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Also, I was hoping that preview would turn out to be Westworld, and I was so happy when ti did. It just looked like all the things we've seen of the non-Western, non-Saumrai part of the world.

I must have missed that. Did it air before the episode started? I was watching after and I think all I saw were the previews of Watchmen and His Dark Materials.
 

Totenkindly

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I don't have an issue with the plot points per se -- in fact, I can imagine how GRRM will work them into the book form. I just have a huge issue with them not pacing the series and having enough time to properly set them up -- so then it all feels absurd, things feel rushed, the endings feel more erroneously happy than the nuance that would have made them gel better with the earlier seasons. It was just poorly managed from their end, when they had an opportunity to do it better, and I'm not sure how they managed to trip over their own feet here.

I think part of the fan base issue is that it's like Star Wars now, you have a widely diverse fan base rather than a solid small base who are all there for similar reasons. Used to be that fantasy readers used to be more uniform, but the scope has broadened... with GoT you had your original core audience but by the end of Season 4 (when the series was truly making a name) you started picking up a ton of fans of folks who might not even follow fantasy, just like LotR did even if people had no interest in fantasy or reading the books. It became more of a cultural experience and the viewer base I think doubled (from 6-7 million to what it was for the finale -- might even be tripled). So you have all these different "types" of viewers, all prioritizing different things. And some are there expecting a particular ending. It's kind of the danger when you name your kid after a book character when the books aren't finished, and they end up being quasi-fascist. How many parents named their kids Darth? (probably not many) But we knew Darth was tainted from his first appearance. Anyway, a lot of the "non-core" viewers -- the ones who jumped on later as part of the cultural phenomena -- are voicing a particular kind of complaint. People from other groups of viewers probably have different complaints. But they can't really be lumped together in terms of concerns. The later viewers might bail on further GoT series, depending; maybe some of the core group who also probably have read the books will persist.

Anyway, I rewatched parts of the episode twice. my issues with the last two seasons really come from terrible pacing, resulting in plot points that feel out of the blue rather than the surprising but inevitable conclusion of complex narratives, and from logical inconsistencies occurring because they keep skipping steps out of convenience (again, another pacing issue). And then sometimes they waste what time they DO have in the episode with silly, trivial stuff rather than the stuff they should be getting across.

I don't fault the actors, and in the finale I think considering these issues, Dinklage and Harrington and Clarke in particular deserve praise for their heavy lifting... they had to bring weight to stuff that the script and plotting didn't necessarily earn.

All that being said, I only cried once, and that was the scene with Brienne, where she performs a particularly gracious act. It was a small scene but Christie delivers; and despite it being soured by bad pacing in the character arc, i could read the intent behind it.

I also went back and rewatched the end of Season 2, when Daenerys is in the House of the Undying. It's kind of interesting to rewatch now in hindsight of how things pan out.

(Also, I still have to say jesus, jon -- I've been called "the poster child of ambivalence" by people IRL before, but you really take the cake sometimes. I wanted to slap him at times.)
 

ceecee

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I must have missed that. Did it air before the episode started? I was watching after and I think all I saw were the previews of Watchmen and His Dark Materials.

Yes, Aaron Paul was in the trailer, I had to rewind and make sure that's what it was.
 

Totenkindly

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I think what I'd like to see would be a half-hour HBO sitcom about the new Small Council. That would be hilarious.

 

Lark

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I can not believe that they went FULL ON Fairy Tale Happily Ever After mode with the final episode.

I am so, so disappointed and its a shame as I defended the other episodes against the critics and I honestly did believe they were great.

There are plenty of things about that final episode that are totally consistent with very big over arching story arcs from throughout the entire series, all the destinies of the various characters make perfect sense, I just really dont like them as I think that the gritty, grim nature of Westeros was dispensed with some what.

The children of the forest-white walkers-three eyed raven-Dr Manhatton style Bran storyline really did not grip me AT ALL and so I really dont like the working out of that one so much but its logical that it did the way it did.

I also dont really like the sort of "our time will come" style eventual victory of House Stark, it DOES fit with my own personal lawful good sense of justice but I dont think it actually fits with the Westerosian aesthetic as established in the first season with the actual death of Ned Stark himself, there are loads of "partial victories" or "deadlocked" outcomes which would have made more sense to me. Like how things stand now, they may personally be psychologically destroyed, any one of them, but House Stark is objectively in a superior position to what it was to begin with, can you actually believe that? It reminds me of the Dune cycle, actually only the first book of the Dune cycle, rather than The War of The Roses.

There are going to be films and stuff but I still think the "devastated" Westeros ending, like some kind of apocalyptic end of everything with small outposts or settlements on the wildling scale, trying to preserve and rebuild would have been way better. I always thought the whole idea of the whole story was that the game of thrones is one with ill consequences for everyone, win, lose or draw, and the only option or object lesson is not to play it, kind of like War Games, since it actually is a War Game of sorts. Instead the whole thing got flipped and turned into a sort of fairy tale of the north.
 

Totenkindly

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yeah, as far as the Starks go

 

ceecee

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All that being said, I only cried once, and that was the scene with Brienne, where she performs a particularly gracious act. It was a small scene but Christie delivers; and despite it being soured by bad pacing in the character arc, i could read the intent behind it.

I kept thinking, now she is keeping the memories and writing the history. Maybe Bran gave that job/ability to her.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I must have missed that. Did it air before the episode started? I was watching after and I think all I saw were the previews of Watchmen and His Dark Materials.

You might have not even realized that's what it was, especially if you missed the title at the end. i really liked season 2, and I didn't really know if they could do anything else interesting going into it. I'm excited to find out what else is in store.

I don't have an issue with the plot points per se -- in fact, I can imagine how GRRM will work them into the book form. I just have a huge issue with them not pacing the series and having enough time to properly set them up -- so then it all feels absurd, things feel rushed, the endings feel more erroneously happy than the nuance that would have made them gel better with the earlier seasons. It was just poorly managed from their end, when they had an opportunity to do it better, and I'm not sure how they managed to trip over their own feet here.

I think part of the fan base issue is that it's like Star Wars now, you have a widely diverse fan base rather than a solid small base who are all there for similar reasons. Used to be that fantasy readers used to be more uniform, but the scope has broadened... with GoT you had your original core audience but by the end of Season 4 (when the series was truly making a name) you started picking up a ton of fans of folks who might not even follow fantasy, just like LotR did even if people had no interest in fantasy or reading the books. It became more of a cultural experience and the viewer base I think doubled (from 6-7 million to what it was for the finale -- might even be tripled). So you have all these different "types" of viewers, all prioritizing different things. And some are there expecting a particular ending. It's kind of the danger when you name your kid after a book character when the books aren't finished, and they end up being quasi-fascist. How many parents named their kids Darth? (probably not many) But we knew Darth was tainted from his first appearance. Anyway, a lot of the "non-core" viewers -- the ones who jumped on later as part of the cultural phenomena -- are voicing a particular kind of complaint. People from other groups of viewers probably have different complaints. But they can't really be lumped together in terms of concerns. The later viewers might bail on further GoT series, depending; maybe some of the core group who also probably have read the books will persist.

Anyway, I rewatched parts of the episode twice. my issues with the last two seasons really come from terrible pacing, resulting in plot points that feel out of the blue rather than the surprising but inevitable conclusion of complex narratives, and from logical inconsistencies occurring because they keep skipping steps out of convenience (again, another pacing issue). And then sometimes they waste what time they DO have in the episode with silly, trivial stuff rather than the stuff they should be getting across.

I don't fault the actors, and in the finale I think considering these issues, Dinklage and Harrington and Clarke in particular deserve praise for their heavy lifting... they had to bring weight to stuff that the script and plotting didn't necessarily earn.

All that being said, I only cried once, and that was the scene with Brienne, where she performs a particularly gracious act. It was a small scene but Christie delivers; and despite it being soured by bad pacing in the character arc, i could read the intent behind it.

I also went back and rewatched the end of Season 2, when Daenerys is in the House of the Undying. It's kind of interesting to rewatch now in hindsight of how things pan out.

(Also, I still have to say jesus, jon -- I've been called "the poster child of ambivalence" by people IRL before, but you really take the cake sometimes. I wanted to slap him at times.)

Yeah..... I knew what was going to happen in that throne room because of that, and the one thing I did predict was the way her story would end, in addition a lot of hesitant moping from Jon before it happened. Everything after that I didn't see coming. A lot of it was truly out of left field rather than quietly laid in the background like the Red Wedding, for instance, but that's just the way the off-book portions of the show have been. I agree that I would have liked for the journey to be less choppy and a smoother transition, but I do think the ending itsself is good.

I never thought the ending would have been a total downer. I'm glad they went with a positive ending that wasn't entirely predictable and boring

The biggest flaw with the later seasons is the way they simplified the characters and made them less interesting than in the books, or even in earlier seasons. Tyrion is the biggest victim, but Jon suffers from it greatly, also. (In the books, at least, Jon shows more political cunning as leader of the Night's Watch and during his time with the wildings, even if he's still impulsive. But the show didn't really explore that aspec of the character as much as I wanted them to., so he really does come off as kind of slow. ) With regards to villains, I think Ramsey and Roose suffer from it, and certainly Euron. Arya doesn't come off too badly, and Cersei was enjoyable to watch. They botched Sansa a little by having her take on the role of "fake Arya," rather than showing her spend more time with Littlefinger in the Eyrie. I think the books will probably continue her journey in the Eyrie for longer. It's not quite as bad as some of the other characters, because she at least ends up in an interesting place.

The second biggest flaw is just the way they abruptly, in an unsatisfying fashion, terminated so many of the threads from the books I was eager to continue following. Like Ramsay and Roose, Stannis , the previous Three-eyed Raven, the Children of the Forest, Rickon, the Faceless Men, Barristan, greyscale, Mereen, the Vale, the Citadel, etc. The way those threads were concluded didn't shock me; it just felt like desperately trying to get rid of a bunch of subplots as quickly as possible. The one exception I'll allow is Cersei's nuking of the Tyrells, because they took care to build up to it from earlier in the season. They did enough of the work for it to feel like somewhat of a satisfying, if horrifying payoff.

Season 6 is the worst in this regard, and is, in my opinion, the show's weakest season. Season 5 kept some of the stuff from the books I liked with Myreen and the Night's Watch, and Shireen's fate was terrifying, if not something I want to rewatch.
 

tinker683

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I think what I'd like to see would be a half-hour HBO sitcom about the new Small Council. That would be hilarious.


My D&D group and I (who play on Sundays and then have been ending the game early to watch GoT) wholly agree. The West Wing, Westeros Edition. We were cackling at the banter between them all.
 

Totenkindly

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You might have not even realized that's what it was, especially if you missed the title at the end.

That is kind of what happened, since I found the promo later. I was walking in and out of the room, noticed parts of some series promo with Aaron Paul, and totally didn't realize it was the Westworld S3 trailer.



The biggest flaw with the later seasons is the way they simplified the characters and made them less interesting than in the books, or even in earlier seasons. Tyrion is the biggest victim, but Jon suffers from it greatly, also. (In the books, at least, Jon shows more political cunning as leader of the Night's Watch and during his time with the wildings, even if he's still impulsive. But the show didn't really explore that aspec of the character as much as I wanted them to., so he really does come off as kind of slow. ) With regards to villains, I think Ramsey and Roose suffer from it, and certainly Euron. Arya doesn't come off too badly, and Cersei was enjoyable to watch. They botched Sansa a little by having her take on the role of "fake Arya," rather than showing her spend more time with Littlefinger in the Eyrie. I think the books will probably continue her journey in the Eyrie for longer. It's not quite as bad as some of the other characters, because she at least ends up in an interesting place.

The second biggest flaw is just the way they abruptly, in an unsatisfying fashion, terminated so many of the threads from the books I was eager to continue following. Like Ramsay and Roose, Stannis , the previous Three-eyed Raven, the Children of the Forest, Rickon, the Faceless Men, Barristan, greyscale, Mereen, the Vale, the Citadel, etc. The way those threads were concluded didn't shock me; it just felt like desperately trying to get rid of a bunch of subplots as quickly as possible.

Yeah, and yeah. Kind of what people are referring to as the "Cliff Notes" version and/or just chopping things because they couldn't pace properly.

This image has been floating around the internet today, I can't much argue with it:

Game-Of-Thrones-season-8-episode-5-memes.jpg
 

Riva

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Season 8 was terrible, but I enjoyed the ending.

However I felt it left so many questions unanswered. For example - why the Nightking want to destroy the three eyed Raven, who is the fire Lord - is he a god or someone sending infor to the past?

Also we never got to see Bran proving his worth. At one point the entire story was revolving around his development, all for nothing.

Sigh.
 

Lark

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Season 8 was terrible, but I enjoyed the ending.

However I felt it left so many questions unanswered. For example - why the Nightking want to destroy the three eyed Raven, who is the fire Lord - is he a god or someone sending infor to the past?

Also we never got to see Bran proving his worth. At one point the entire story was revolving around his development, all for nothing.

Sigh.

The Night King was created, if you recall, by the children of the forest, as weapon to fight the encroachment of man on their territory, so they shoved a "thorn" into his heart and he from that point wanted to wipe out man and all human history. The 3 eyed raven was a depository of all human history, which was transferred to Bran, hence why he was going around with the vacant Doc Manhattan act. Also why The Night King wanted to kill Bran/They used Bran to lure him out to kill him and from there the arm of Wights he was leading.

It was the big event of Season 8 pretty much.

Also probably why they made Bran the king. Also there's a suggestion history in Westeros is cyclical and Bran is now doing what Bran The Builder did in the past.

The Fire Lord/Lord of Light is a deity, or just a religion arising from the misunderstood magic of Westeros, the same as the other religions of Westeros.

The only story arc I wasnt sure was properly resolved was whether or not the birth of the Dragons was the advent for return of magic into the world or whether it was returning anyway and enabled the Dragons being born, also whether or not the spy master eunuch guy was human or a summoned demon or not. Maybe dont matter but they were stories I wondered about. Like the destruction of the last of the Children of the Forest by the Wights and then the Wights by the humans could have been the advent of an entirely human social order, with nothing anomalous but for those other questions.
 

Totenkindly

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However I felt it left so many questions unanswered. For example - why the Nightking want to destroy the three eyed Raven, who is the fire Lord - is he a god or someone sending infor to the past?

Not sure the Night King was in the book, was he?

But yeah, the show never answered, other than the really lame "Bran is memory, death is the eradication of memory." Yeah, whatever. That answer scanned as a placeholder, then was never expanded upon. That's all it really seems it was. The NK on the show apparently was just a random boss mob who you had to learn a special move to kill and then that was that.

The resolution was not adequate to the BUILDUP, it was phoned in. I wonder how they figured out their plot beats. Did they have a writers group to exchange ideas, critique suggestions, and hammer out the plot points? I bet me and 6-7 others even on this thread could have put together a more inspiring, comprehensive flow of events and explanation for behavior... but we're not the ones who were the showrunners.

Also we never got to see Bran proving his worth. At one point the entire story was revolving around his development, all for nothing.

He did nothing. All that investment with no actual payoff.

Same thing with Jon Snow. Was that the only reason he came back from the dead? And now what does he do with his life? (Go north, young man.) It's not a way to build up a character for 5-6 seasons and then just doing nothing with him. I guess he took care of Ramsay, but he didn't even want to do that... and then he kinda just walked around looking confused and waving a sword occasionally without much impact even when everyone was declaring him King of the North.

There were a lot of things like that, being built in the first half of the series that was then just... dropped.

We didn't even get the answers to the regular smaller stream of questions -- like, Varys was sending out lots of little announcements saying Jon was the heir to the throne. Did it matter? We see nothing that came of it but the show acted like it was a big deal. It might as well have never happened based on the outcome, which wouldn't have changed. That's one of countless examples of threads started and then unceremoniously ignored. Writers are free to write what they want, but good writing (regardless of plot point) is cohesive and builds off itself.

In fairness, there is some expectations from the book that were carried over to the show potentially erroneously. For example, Cercei's prophecy of her death (the final bit) never was included in the witch's prophecy on the show, but viewers heard about it and were expecting the show to include it... they didn't. (So in fairness, it was never part of the show mythos. It blew audience expectation, but that is the fault of the audience and narrative bleed.)

it's irrelevant to the main through-line but I wonder what Daario is up to back in Meereen.
 

Hive

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Not sure the Night King was in the book, was he?
In the book there is a legend of the Night's King (With a possessive "s", not Night King like in the show), who was a Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who fell in love with an Other (which is what the White Walkers are called in the books), and together they ruled the Night's Watch and performed human sacrifices to the Others. Old Nan claims he was a Stark named Bran, tho according to legend, after he was defeated his name was erased from all records and was forbidden to say out loud, so if he was a real person his identity is lost to history.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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In the book there is a legend of the Night's King (With a possessive "s", not Night King like in the show), who was a Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who fell in love with an Other (which is what the White Walkers are called in the books), and together they ruled the Night's Watch and performed human sacrifices to the Others. Old Nan claims he was a Stark named Bran, tho according to legend, after he was defeated his name was erased from all records and was forbidden to say out loud, so if he was a real person his identity is lost to history.

Yeah. The Night King in the show is a completely different thing. They never really go into the origin of the White Walkers in the books that have been out so far. I'm hoping for something a bit meatier there. There's definitely a lot more interesting stuff in the book about the Three-Eyed Raven (who is hinted to not only be a former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but a Targaryen bastard), the Children of the Forest, wargs, and blood sacrifices that the show didn't delve into that much. I think probably the downplaying of some of those fantastical/magical elements hurt Bran's story. Not to mention that I think Bran ate human flesh in the books (from the Night's Watch mutineers).

I think the stuff with Bran at the end will probably make a lot more sense with the books, given how they already go into much more detail than the show ever did about him (he wasn't even in a season!)

I do like that it's not Jon or Danerys. Remember that scene with him and Jaime in the first episode, discussing vows? That certainly has additional resonance now.

Like I said, I'm happy with the story ended, even if the journey doesn't really connect with it well in the last few seasons. It certainly makes me hope that these last two books come out at some point.

Hmm, speaking of the Three-Eyed Raven, I need to read those prequel books with him as a character.
 

Lark

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I've been watching a few youtubes and following a few of the bigger discussions of the final season, plus I've rewatched some of the earlier series points to be honest and I've begun to think that perhaps the final season has been awful and not as good as any of the proceeding material.

The thing is that I believed as simple screen entertainment, which completed some of the story arcs, episodes were doing fine, until the very final one which I believe is a terrible bad joke of an episode. Although it was simple screen entertainment and closer material. It was not the sort of thing which had made the show's name in the first place.

At first I thought it was just a lot of fan emoting because the thing was ending and also the tendency to tear everything down and ruin the things you love that appears to be rampant in the western world or at least the anglosphere at the moment. Although I'm rethinking that now.

The illustration with the horse is a good one but I'm not sure I would situated the best season (which I presume is what is meant with the photo realistic segment) as they have, personally, I think the Bran storyline was awful, totally and utterly awful. I understand that it served the purpose of facilitating a couple of more or less crucial reveals, ie Jon Snow's parentage, history of westeros, the intrigue between the children of the forest and makind leading to the rise of the white walkers but honestly I just hated how that character developed.

I did read some interesting stuff about how Bran could have made some interventions in the past, accidentially or deliberately, which create a change of causation resulting in his and everyone's present life and also explaining why he wouldnt do anything other than sit about and talk softly and annoyingly. Even that I dont believe would have saved things. I just didnt like that story arc what so ever and I can definitely see how its logical that it resulted in the finish that everyone got.

The show I believe got ruined back then, with reveals that seemed a little gimicky like the Hordor, Hold The Door, thing.
 
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