Game of Thrones!

[Totenkindly]

the "heroes no one wanted but everyone deserves"

Essentially.

Surprised Euron is still around.

He was most interesting in his first appearance or two. Now he's just the brain-damaged bad boy trolling about in his fancy ship blowing shit up at random moments OR he's bragging to Cersei about blowing shit up in order to impress/bed her.

IOW, a total jackass and not as competent as he'd have to be to do the stuff ascribed to him, as written and shot at least.

...I actually have not seen the last two seasons as I don't have HBO. just been reading spoilers here and there.

Not missing much, although there are occasional decent moments/scenes. The Knight scene was decently done, for example.

 

[Totenkindly]

Okay, predictions:

- Dany will start burning things. This will include Varys when he tries to keep her from burning down King's Landing. Bye, Varys.
- The Hound will finally put the Mountain out of his misery.
- Theoretically, Cersei should be winning by the time Euron takes her victory away by choking her to death. Or, if the show is really half-assed, it will be Arya wearing Euron's face. Because why the hell not.
- But I figure Arya will kill Dany, because Jon will stand up against her and/or accept that she shouldn't be Queen, and when she tries to kill him, Arya will put her down.
- If Jon survives this whole sordid mess, they'll want him to be King, but he doesn't want to be. Like the other Targaryan who became a member of Night's Watch, and just like his dire wolf who ALSO went North, Jon (heartbroken also over the loss of Dany) will go North. Tormund told him as much this season, and that's where Ghost is.
- Jaime will probably go die in King's Landing.
- Tyrion and Arya will both live.
- Yara is now Lord of the Ironborne. She might bring boats to this siege.
- Sansa either becomes Lady of Winterfell or sits on the Iron Throne. Tyrion either serves her as Hand or they marry.
- Bran sits in his chair and watches the celestial TV for the rest of his life.
- Sam builds a history of everything that has happened, rather expressed like the opening credits.
- If Dany dies, Drogon either dies or flies off. Or maybe he goes with Jon to the North.
- Also, there's a slim possibility of fan service in having a last shot of some baby north of the wall opening its eyes and they're blue.

Anyway, it's all rather a mess and somewhat unsatisfying, regardless.

 

[Deprecator]

Considering the recent dip in quality my prediction is that nothing short of a little finger revival will salvage this final season. Arya comes in to kill Cersei, but at the last moment little finger shows up and says, "You thought you were going to get away with this? My great grandfather founded the league of faceless assassins..."

 

[Hive]

This has turned to an absolute shitshow. Not only did they botch the character arcs and the greater story, the characters themselves and their dialogue is incredibly one dimensional and amateurishly written. I struggle to finish the latest episode. The overall quality of writing, whether it be story, dialogue or scenes, makes it feel like I'm watching the most big budget fan fiction in history.

 

[Totenkindly]

One thing I thought during the ending of the debacle (and my son had the same question when we talked about it last night) -- not sure why Cersei didn't

just freaking kill them all when they stood outside her gate. There's about 30 Unsullied, Tyrion, Grey Worm, and Daenerys. Seriously? Not only would it have been sensible -- kill the usurper! -- but it would have been easy AND it would have fit her character. SHe bombed the temple of the seven and murdered hundreds, just to end their threat against her family's power; killing a small group who had already declared war outside the walls is not a big deal.

I can see it now: "Any last words?"

Missandei: "DRACARYS!"

Cersie smirks. Gives the signal. Instead of the death we expect, all her men kill Daenerys and her party riddling them with arrows and scorpion bolts, including the brother she hates.

Missandei stands there alive in shock... and starts sobbing uncontrollably before the Mountain tosses her over a shoulder and drags her off to the dungeon for torment.


That's the Game of Thrones we used to know. When people did stupid shit and/or were actually in danger, they were actually in danger and often got killed by ruthless sensible people. This would be consistent with Cersei as well.


It's still kind of unbelievable during the Winterfell battle that they fabricated dramatic threat -- Sam pinned down by multiple dead, screaming, Jaime and Brienne and Podrick overwhelmed by hundreds of dead against the walls in which should have been something unsurvivable, but they survive. We've been seeing that for awhile, like when Jaime fell into 30' of water wearing plate and somehow was dragged a few hundred years under the surface without drowning and without removing his armor and gets out without issue.

 

[Andy]

I agree that Jaqen H’ghar knew Arya could never be, would never be a faceless man. She’s Arya Stark through and through.

The Many Faced God title strongly suggests that the pantheon of new gods is perhaps a monotheistic system cleverly disguised as polytheism. There is only one god. If you follow the premise that the gods derive their power from their worshippers and their relevance in the lives of mortals, only an egomaniacal god would push one portfolio. An industrious one would propagate multiple identities to keep themselves as relevant as possible and enjoy tremendous power.

A god would also be very much interested in keeping it’s source of power protected. The Night King was an instrument of war, a weapon designed to destroy humanity. Of course The Many Faced God would protect his investment. Arya was most likely chosen to be his weapon a very long time ago.

And even if we regard the many faced god as a separate entity, there is still plenty of reasons why it would want to stop the Night King. While the god of death is a rather grim and intimidating entity, I've seen very little to make me think it is evil. One of the things that Arya learns in the temple is that sometimes death is a mercy - that's hardly the message of a wicked god. As far as I can tell, the god of death is just part of the cycle of life m- specifically, the bit at the end. The Night King would have brought that cycle to an end, making him the enemy of the faceless god - which sounds like a bad place to be, if you ask me. On top of that, I could see who the faceless god could be offended by someone who habitually raised the dead on a large scale.

 

[Yuurei]

This has turned to an absolute shitshow. Not only did they botch the character arcs and the greater story, the characters themselves and their dialogue is incredibly one dimensional and amateurishly written. I struggle to finish the latest episode. The overall quality of writing, whether it be story, dialogue or scenes, makes it feel like I'm watching the most big budget fan fiction in history.

“ lol. We can get away with saying cock and titties every sentence” I know that’s not what you meant but it’s certainly nit helping.

 

[Totenkindly]

So I remember back in Season 4 that the season ender (where Tywin bites it in the privy) aired on USA Father's Day, kind of an appropriate send off from the Lannister kids. A number of reviews commented on it, since the episode (and the prior few) had a huge highlight of the difficult of bearing up over demanding fathers.

Well, today is USA Mother's Day... I'm expecting at least one of the two prominent moms (if not both) to snuff it tonight. This show apparently hates parents, even if Gilly's still around.

You think they plan this, honestly; like, they schedule the season around dates like this.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

So I remember back in Season 4 that the season ender (where Tywin bites it in the privy) aired on USA Father's Day, kind of an appropriate send off from the Lannister kids. A number of reviews commented on it, since the episode (and the prior few) had a huge highlight of the difficult of bearing up over demanding fathers.

Well, today is USA Mother's Day... I'm expecting at least one of the two prominent moms (if not both) to snuff it tonight. This show apparently hates parents, even if Gilly's still around.

You think they plan this, honestly; like, they schedule the season around dates like this.

You know, even if Danerys goes full mad queen, I hope it's Cersei that bites it. Cersei was terrible even when she was a little girl.

 

[Deprecator]

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Yeah, I like this season better than the last two.

I'm happy Euron's dead. He couldn't even not suck in his final scene. So this dipshit is the one who killed Jamie Lannister, and acted like a total clown while doing it while offering nothing more than "I'm banging your girl, bro"? Or maybe the point is that he thought he was the one to do it becasuse he's full of himself? Either way, it doesn't work for me. It's not subversion, it's just irritating the audience. It's fitting that he killed the Sand Snakes, I suppose, because he went on to inherit the mantle of worst character.

Didn't expect Sandor to go out any other way, really. Happy for him, in a way.

I kinda thought Mad Queen Danerys might be a thing back in season 7. I really liked this aspect of that episode.

I did get annoyed with all the Arya Stark fakeouts.

Finally, was that longclaw Arya saw at the end near the unrecognizable burned body? Jon's not in the preview for next week, although it could just be a big fakeout.

 

[ceecee]

This fucking show. I'm just going to bed.

 

[Totenkindly]

"I'm not going to stop the wheel. I'm going to fuck the wheel into the cold dark ground." ~ Danerys Stormborne

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

This fucking show. I'm just going to bed.

"I'm not going to stop the wheel. I'm going to fuck the wheel into the cold dark ground." ~ Danerys Stormborne

Yes, but did you like it or not like it? It wasn't perfect, but I'm happy with it overall. It's like the rest of this season. Some really dumb moments, but lots of good stuff. Oh, and regarding something else I've been complaining about...

Tyrion didn't bother me much here. In this case, it seemed less about counting on the good will and reasonably of his crazy sister, and more about hoping that he can find some way to minimize bloodshed, and also about wanting to repay his brother. Tyrion's the guy who is hoping that he's not stuck been two equally shitty choices, but wants to believe that there's a better way. I'm ok with that; it was something season 2 delved into a bit with him. I suppose that could have been what he was about last season, but it could have been written better.

Lena Headey was pretty amazing in this... conveyed quite a bit just through her eyes, without saying a word.

I also saw interesting bits of symbolism (which were perhaps obvious). The burned people made me think of the hound; they'll probably go on to be like the hound, obsessed with vengeance, even if they die in the process. And the cycle continues.

And then there's the wildfire. Ceresei's act, obviously, but also Danerys's father. Like father, like daughter.

 

[Totenkindly]

Okay, I actually had my laptop out during that debacle and was jotting things down throughout. Kinda of amusing.

Opener, with Varys preparing to spread shit: Varys, hope you're wearing flame retardant clothing. Anyway, the impending death is the surprise that is no surprise.

Tyrion, man, Y So Serious? I miss the days when you used to drink and know things, now you just brood and fail endlessly. And then you finked on your bro...!

Dany locked herself in her room for two days? Is she sixteen? (Wait, she might be. At most, twenty.) But seriously, if you were gonna burn things down, it should have happened right after Missandei's head hit bounced on the ground.

The whole Tyrion/Jaime scene is misguided -- wtf wouldn't Dany be predicting this and have Tyrion banned from Jaime? And how does Jaime escape the camp? And...? Anyway, it's stupid, but Tyrion still made me cry. This fucking show...

You know, Euron actually does look like Theon's brother, just bigger.

Why didn't King's Landing have the gates closed off? They knew the city was under siege. You don't want enemy troops straggling in pretending to be traders. But hey, then I guess Jaime and the Hound and Arya couldn't get in either, so...

Why did Dany wait until day to attack? She could have just burned all the scorpion boltthrowers at night. She could have burned the fleet at night. Black dragon = black sky. Oh, but wait, it didn't matter -- she took everything out all by herself in the day time, despite how easily they killed her other baby last week. Oh, this fucking show...

You know, it would have been an awesome trick if Jaime tells Cersei the plan about ringing the bells, and then she rings them to sucker them into complacency, then kills them all. Another Fuckup for Tyrion and his terminally ill soft heart.

Cersei wears red for Lannister and Blood, rather than her battle garb. What a doll. She always dresses well.

I have to admit, it was kinda cool having the dragon blow out the gate from INSIDE the keep. Also WTF are the soldiers outside the walls again, without any barriers in place to deaden a charge? This fucking show....

I've never seen Cersei be so clueless or incompetent. Get your shit together. The old plan is fucked, obviously. Get a new one. You don't sound like the Queen of Westeros, you sound like the Queen of Denial.

Jaime would be a shitty delivery man -- Hasn't he ever heard of "When it absolutely has to be there overnight"?

Dauntless Lannister men -- wow, not So dauntless. Wait, maybe the plan is to have attackers trip over all the swords lying in the street?

Hey Dany shouldn't be perching her dragon. The dragon's strength is being a moving target. Something could target it easily right now --

Oh fucking hell, I guess surrender is off the table? Shit Dany. All this trouble, to raze the place anyway?

Sigh. If only we could have had flaming elephants running through the streets.

How many barrels of gas does a dragon have to drink to light up a city anyway?

Dany and Drogon have great block coverage here. I'm watching her lay down fire -- they could mow lawns with that level of skill. I think they'll get everything, eventually.

Okay, so I think I've figured out Dany's new strategy: "You all suck. Fuck ruling you. I'm gonna lay waste, then take my dragon and go home to Meereen." Way to break the wheel.

Meanwhile Jon will cut down every soldier in his own army, one by one, to prevent them from raping and pillaging and pillaging and raping.

Cersei: "It's my castle and I'll cry if I want to x3. You would cry too, if it happened to you."

Poor Qyburn. He didn't have his auto-crash-test armor installed yet.

Did anyone gasp when the Mountain's helm came off? Was anyone else reminded of Anakin Skywalker when Luke pops the top off in RotJ?

Fuck you, Euron, you're such a shit. And Jaime is of course running on recent GoT logic -- "Felt cute, been stabbed twice in the gut, might continue to climb 1000 steps and stay alive until the end of the episode anyway, idk"

Rule King's Landing? There IS no King's Landing. (Jesus, Dany, wtf??) But there's a Mountain landing... somewhere. And Sandor might have finished things, but he never confronted his fear of fire, really, well until he hit bottom. This fucking show....

And now the walls truly come crashing down. I think Jaime's hands were around her throat? Maybe? Kinda? Does this count? Maybe it's a technicality win?

And.... the vision of ash from Season 2.

And the stunt double from "War Horse".

And Arya rides through it.

Anyway, thank god this is almost over, I kinda just want the pain to end.

 

[Totenkindly]

Yes, but did you like it or not like it? It wasn't perfect, but I'm happy with it overall. It's like the rest of this season. Some really dumb moments, but lots of good stuff. Oh, and regarding something else I've been complaining about...

Tyrion didn't bother me much here. In this case, it seemed less about counting on the good will and reasonably of his crazy sister, and more about hoping that he can find some way to minimize bloodshed, and also about wanting to repay his brother. Tyrion's the guy who is hoping that he's not stuck been two equally shitty choices, but wants to believe that there's a better way. I'm ok with that; it was something season 2 delved into a bit with him. I suppose that could have been what he was about last season, but it could have been written better.

Lena Headey was pretty amazing in this... conveyed quite a bit just through her eyes, without saying a word.

I also saw interesting bits of symbolism (which were perhaps obvious). The burned people made me think of the hound; they'll probably go on to be like the hound, obsessed with vengeance, even if they die in the process. And the cycle continues.

And then there's the wildfire. Ceresei's act, obviously, but also Danerys's father. Like father, like daughter.

I think it was really impressive if you want to watch, well, you know what happened in general. In terms of THAT, it was well shot.

But it's a total fucking shitshow in terms of crafting a coherent story that properly connects and concludes various character arcs that have been carefully bricked and mortared in place for twenty five years.

It's like the Battle of Winterfell, it's kind of subjectively awesome in the moment, then afterwards it's a huge disappointment and also yet one more moment that drops this show yet another rung on the ladder in terms of its overall impact... kind of how Lost took a lot of credibility loss in its last season.

A huge victory for the director, a huge black mark for the showrunners.

It's the kind of thing that means I'll probably only ever rewatch the first four seasons, plus selected episodes (like Hardhome or The Door) but never bother watching the rest.

 

[Totenkindly]

Game of Thrones actor on his surprise ending' | EW.com

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I think it was really impressive if you want to watch, well, you know what happened in general. In terms of THAT, it was well shot.

But it's a total fucking shitshow in terms of crafting a coherent story that properly connects and concludes various character arcs that have been carefully bricked and mortared in place for twenty five years.

It's like the Battle of Winterfell, it's kind of subjectively awesome in the moment, then afterwards it's a huge disappointment and also yet one more moment that drops this show yet another rung on the ladder in terms of its overall impact... kind of how Lost took a lot of credibility loss in its last season.

A huge victory for the director, a huge black mark for the showrunners.

It's the kind of thing that means I'll probably only ever rewatch the first four seasons, plus selected episodes (like Hardhome or The Door) but never bother watching the rest.

Well, you're probably right with a lot of that, but my expectations were kind of lowered going into this season, so it's easy to succeed them. Generally speaking, I'm a big believer in managing expectations regarding all things.

I think in the books, if they ever come out, a lot of the problems with the last seasons, including the inconsistency with how powerful the dragons actually are. Don't forget that in the books, there's another contender for the iron throne who seems to be doing quite well the last we see that character. Euron will play an extremely different role than the crap we got here. It becomes easy to see how there can be a lot more organic ways for things to not be a cakewalk for Danerys in the book universe.

Her last scerne in ADWD foreshadows "Mad Queen" danerys, too. This will probably be a gradual progression into that as doing things "the right way" meets various obstacles. Obviously, the show tried to do that, but they didn't do it in a way that felt like it fit; Danerys's forces seem to be as strong as the series needs them to be. They're weak when trying things "the right way" needs to fail, and they're strong when she just wants to burn everything to the ground. But in the books, there's the third Targarayen (pretender, maybe?), Euron's got a horn that is supposed to control dragons, Dorne probably won't declare allegiance to Danerys; etc. There's a lot more variables up in the air for things to not work out that don't necessarily require inconsistent power levels.

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, you're probably right with a lot of that, but my expectations were kind of lowered going into this season, so it's easy to succeed them. Generally speaking, I'm a big believer in managing expectations regarding all things.

Well, we all have different levels of expectation.

For me, there's a few rules:

1. A piece of art sets its own expectation. I don't get annoyed with trash films, and sometimes I really can enjoy a substandard film (from a critical perspective) if it is true to what it promised and was going for. But it does mean that if something sets a high expectation for itself (through marketing, or through exceptional quality through much of it), then if it drops the ball, I will be critical of it. It didn't deliver what it promised.

2. While I can read in a lot of shit into a story, that's not my job to make excuses for the writer. A piece of art's quality is not based on its aspirations but on its delivery. Lots of people have great ideas, few can deliver on them. There's a lot of stuff that one can read into this episode, make certain connections -- but to me, if the episode ITSELF does not make those connections, then it has failed to do the job. I can see that some people read a lot of subtext into the story to make it palatable for them, but even when I'm aware of it, either the show actually tied that stuff in directly or it failed to.

3. A refusal to tell the story in the amount of space it needs to be adequately told is a failure. In this case, some of the blame is due to the fact that they could not honor all the storylines that were set in place / manage all the dramatic beats necessary to really create something exceptional. However, that was the showrunners deciding they would rather rush things through and not properly managing the time needed to deliver, they don't get a pass just because they couldn't deliver everything in the time frame. It's that way for anything, even if it's not a story at all but a software project, etc. HBO is making a lot of money on this show and I'm sure would give whatever was required.

In the end, once the show is no longer airing, all you have are rewatches, and the show is in final form forever. So you want to make sure it's done right. Because that's all future generations will see.

4. It's a work of art. I need to have an emotional response to it -- not necessarily surface emotion, but some deep "in the gut" pervasive response. The best art IMO does that, it makes you feel something. All these kinds of discrepancies in logic that take one out of the show / make the characters not feel real, or realizations that you do not experience in the moment while actually watching the show, means the piece of art is not generating the depth of connection that it should.



I'll reiterate I will probably read the books, now, though -- if GRRM ever finishes them. Because I am far more confident the storylines will get the time and space and seriousness they need to actually find decent closure, versus the primetime TV version.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I'll reiterate I will probably read the books, now, though -- if GRRM ever finishes them. Because I am far more confident the storylines will get the time and space and seriousness they need to actually find decent closure, versus the primetime TV version.

Oh, I added in my last post that there's a lot of stuff that GRRM put in the last two books that make me see how the story could develop along this path more organically. A lot of people, myself included, wondered why some of that stuff was put in there, and where exactly he was going with it, but a reddit post made a really good point about how much of it is likely to play a role in getting things to the right place in a way that feels more natural.

Euron's treatment on the show, I think, is worse than even Dorne. Clearly, in the books, the Iron Islands and Dorne are going to play into things very differently than in the show, and the conclusion of the story will probably be better for it.