• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Game of Thrones!

Yuurei

Noncompliant
Joined
Sep 29, 2016
Messages
4,506
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
8w7
Weirdly, they have added the Behind the Scenes commentary to the episode on HBO GO now, and they said they've been planning it to be Arya for a few years now... which means since during Season 6 or so now....

I haven't bothered to review all the prophecy stuff, but off-hand it's not clear how she aligns with any of it.

Hated Theon in the first few seasons, I did grow to love him, though. Some of the characters did not have growth arcs; he did. He did dumb things to prove he was a good man (in a corrupt definition) early in his life, then he was screwed over repeatedly and badly (some of which he brought on himself); but he came through the fire and really earned any redemption through blood, sweat, tears, raw courage.

I saw that and it only reinforced my theory-because they didn't say "Why" just " We knew it would be "Arya" No follow up "Because of this skill or opportunity. just...because." ...because it would be the most surprising, or not.

Yep, Theon was an angry, stupid little shit wasn't he? I didn't think he be redeemed but I agree, he was.

On a slightly related note: was out gardening all day. Was quite cold so I wore my Greyjoy Hoody. The irony was not lost on me.
But I don't think they really have the numbers for raiding anymore. Maaaaaybe have to start learning to sow.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,258
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
oh snap.... Episode 3 took a beating in RT.
All Game of Thrones Episodes, Ranked by Tomatometer << Rotten Tomatoes – Movie and TV News

This season’s premiere and second episode were average Game of Thrones fare: The premiere ranks #48 at 93% and “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” is #55 at 88%. But episode 3, “The Long Night” (which chronicled the long-awaited battle with the Night King and his White Walkers), ranked far, far lower. It’s currently the second-worst scoring Game of Thrones episode ever — despite also being the most-reviewed episode, too. “The Long Night” is currently ranked #69 with 93 reviews (as of 10:30 a.m. on May 1).

Yeah, I can understand the showrunners getting off the Internet when the finale airs.



It's just kinda sad, though -- I think the director did a bang-up job in implementing the episode as he was handed it. The gripes are really from a writing/plotting/conceptual standpoint
 

Andy

Supreme High Commander
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
1,211
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
I've been thinking about it some more and realized that not only did they fuck up Jon's and Bran's arcs, but also Arya's.

The theme of her arc has been revenge. It's what she's been obsessed with since the beheading of Ned Stark. And she wanted it so badly that she eventually ended up with the Faceless Men in order to accomplish this goal. This presented a conflict however: in order to be granted the power to exact her revenge, she'd have to give up her identity as Arya Stark. The Faceless Men do not serve themselves, only the Many-Faced God, and thus the cost of this power would be to let go of her identity and thus her desire for revenge. It's a conflict of duty (to the Many-Faced God) and honor/revenge (for her family). All these seasons of plotting and training should've culminated in a climax of this conflict (perhaps having her dish out revenge, but then having to deal with the Faceless Men for her disloyalty) and bring us to a conclusion of her duty/revenge arc. Instead, all of this building her up into a skilled assassin obsessed with revenge has only been to serve a "cool moment". Now she's the hero of Westeros. She no longer has to choose between duty and honor, her revenge arc is kind of thrown to the wayside, they let her have the cake and eat it too.

Hacks.

Actually, I think that Arya did exactly what the Facerless Men intended her to do right from the start. I think her entire interaction with them, from start to finish, was fabricated by them for the express purpose of creating a tool that could be used against the White King. I reckon the Servants of the Light aren't the only ones to be capable of seeing snatches of the futures, and when it comes to foreseeing events where large numbers of people die, the Faceless Men would be very skilled indeed.

Consider that it was Arya rivalry with her fellow apprentice, the Waif, that led to her leaving the Faceless Men... but here is the thing - there was no Waif. If you go back and watch the scene where Arya loses her sight, after the man drinks the water of death and collapses, the Waif pulls off her face to reveal the man underneath. In doing so she reveals that whoever the Waif's face belonged to, she's already dead and the person wearing it is a fully fledged member of the Faceless Men. While Ayra doesn't seem to cotton on, this scene shows that the Waif is a construct designed to elicit a particular response from Arya, every bit as much as the Man was. When the Waif follows Ayra into the dark - seemingly rather stupidly - and dies, it throws Arya on to a course that ends with her killing the White King.
 
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
5,100
Actually, I think that Arya did exactly what the Facerless Men intended her to do right from the start. I think her entire interaction with them, from start to finish, was fabricated by them for the express purpose of creating a tool that could be used against the White King. I reckon the Servants of the Light aren't the only ones to be capable of seeing snatches of the futures, and when it comes to foreseeing events where large numbers of people die, the Faceless Men would be very skilled indeed.

Consider that it was Arya rivalry with her fellow apprentice, the Waif, that led to her leaving the Faceless Men... but here is the thing - there was no Waif. If you go back and watch the scene where Arya loses her sight, after the man drinks the water of death and collapses, the Waif pulls off her face to reveal the man underneath. In doing so she reveals that whoever the Waif's face belonged to, she's already dead and the person wearing it is a fully fledged member of the Faceless Men. While Ayra doesn't seem to cotton on, this scene shows that the Waif is a construct designed to elicit a particular response from Arya, every bit as much as the Man was. When the Waif follows Ayra into the dark - seemingly rather stupidly - and dies, it throws Arya on to a course that ends with her killing the White King.
I agree that Jaqen H’ghar knew Arya could never be, would never be a faceless man. She’s Arya Stark through and through.

The Many Faced God title strongly suggests that the pantheon of new gods is perhaps a monotheistic system cleverly disguised as polytheism. There is only one god. If you follow the premise that the gods derive their power from their worshippers and their relevance in the lives of mortals, only an egomaniacal god would push one portfolio. An industrious one would propagate multiple identities to keep themselves as relevant as possible and enjoy tremendous power.

A god would also be very much interested in keeping it’s source of power protected. The Night King was an instrument of war, a weapon designed to destroy humanity. Of course The Many Faced God would protect his investment. Arya was most likely chosen to be his weapon a very long time ago.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,258
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
People are going to speculate, but I think the problem is there are so many "fan theories" on there on what is happening in the TV series but it's all really just remains speculation because the show itself is not really written in a fair way if such speculations are actually true. It's why a lot of people are upset with this episode and have been upset with other episodes. In this case, there's not really any TRUE signifiers that we're meant to read Arya this way; it's all people trying to connect possible data points after the fact.

On the other hand, look back at earlier seasons. Maybe Oberyn choosing to champion Tyrion seems surprising on first pass (for non-book readers) but in hindsight if you rewatch the episodes it's all really clear that, based on small comments/dialogue lines and historical data we are given about old resentments, that this is going to happen. Or step outside of this series -- watch Shyamalan's "The Sixth Sense" where a last minute revelation puts the entire movie in a whole new light. On first pass, most people don't seem it coming; on second watch, it's all there, you see the movie entirely differently and a smart viewer who hasn't fallen prey to misdirection can put it together. (Or Nolan's "The Prestige" -- the secret to the original version of the Transporting Man is clearly telegraphed through the film but you have been misdirected to think something different.) That's actually good writing -- something that scans as surprising initially and afterwards now appears inevitable.

This stuff about Arya is kind of fascinating to consider, but there's nothing in the show that really makes it seem like what we were supposed to walk away with. If GRRM goes this direction in his final books, maybe it will be more clarified; but right now it just seems like sloppy writing and people trying to go back after the fact and somehow justify it all. We are given literally nothing about the Faceless Man in terms of his actual intentions or even that he gives a shit about the Night King, even after this turn of events; going back for a rewatch won't reveal anything new. Right now this all scans as "Well, this is what happened, so this must have been what the writers intended." Or maybe the writers either didn't have these ideas, or maybe they just did a poor job in including enough real anchor points. Who knows? The show has definitely been much more explicit about how petty the fight for the throne is in the face of the Night King's threat... so I'm really hoping they don't completely ignore that now and try to make a happy resolution resulting in someone winning the throne, like a conventional fantasy story.

I dunno. There have been more "fan theories" about GoT than you could shake a flaming stick at, some of them highly ridiculous. Others are "possible" because nothing excludes them, but we really don't know what's going on the Faceless Man. In the show, he scanned to me as both surprised and pleased that Arya walked away, which could have been a mistake by the actor; but we knew as an audience all along that she was using the assassin program to implement her own plan, rather than truly being committed to their overt agenda. Maybe that means FM would also be aware of that, but as far as the writing goes, I can't tell. Again, maybe GRRM will deal with it better if this is the intent. If this is what is meant to happen, it should be surprising (which is what it was) but also appear inevitable afterwards (which it doesn't).
 
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
5,100
People are going to speculate, but I think the problem is there are so many "fan theories" on there on what is happening in the TV series but it's all really just remains speculation because the show itself is not really written in a fair way if such speculations are actually true. It's why a lot of people are upset with this episode and have been upset with other episodes. In this case, there's not really any TRUE signifiers that we're meant to read Arya this way; it's all people trying to connect possible data points after the fact.

On the other hand, look back at earlier seasons. Maybe Oberyn choosing to champion Tyrion seems surprising on first pass (for non-book readers) but in hindsight if you rewatch the episodes it's all really clear that, based on small comments/dialogue lines and historical data we are given about old resentments, that this is going to happen. Or step outside of this series -- watch Shyamalan's "The Sixth Sense" where a last minute revelation puts the entire movie in a whole new light. On first pass, most people don't seem it coming; on second watch, it's all there, you see the movie entirely differently and a smart viewer who hasn't fallen prey to misdirection can put it together. (Or Nolan's "The Prestige" -- the secret to the original version of the Transporting Man is clearly telegraphed through the film but you have been misdirected to think something different.) That's actually good writing -- something that scans as surprising initially and afterwards now appears inevitable.

This stuff about Arya is kind of fascinating to consider, but there's nothing in the show that really makes it seem like what we were supposed to walk away with. If GRRM goes this direction in his final books, maybe it will be more clarified; but right now it just seems like sloppy writing and people trying to go back after the fact and somehow justify it all. We are given literally nothing about the Faceless Man in terms of his actual intentions or even that he gives a shit about the Night King, even after this turn of events; going back for a rewatch won't reveal anything new. Right now this all scans as "Well, this is what happened, so this must have been what the writers intended." Or maybe the writers either didn't have these ideas, or maybe they just did a poor job in including enough real anchor points. Who knows? The show has definitely been much more explicit about how petty the fight for the throne is in the face of the Night King's threat... so I'm really hoping they don't completely ignore that now and try to make a happy resolution resulting in someone winning the throne, like a conventional fantasy story.

I dunno. There have been more "fan theories" about GoT than you could shake a flaming stick at, some of them highly ridiculous. Others are "possible" because nothing excludes them, but we really don't know what's going on the Faceless Man. In the show, he scanned to me as both surprised and pleased that Arya walked away, which could have been a mistake by the actor; but we knew as an audience all along that she was using the assassin program to implement her own plan, rather than truly being committed to their overt agenda. Maybe that means FM would also be aware of that, but as far as the writing goes, I can't tell. Again, maybe GRRM will deal with it better if this is the intent. If this is what is meant to happen, it should be surprising (which is what it was) but also appear inevitable afterwards (which it doesn't).
If GRRM ever produces the actual ending we may not have to speculate. In the meantime, I’m going entertain my own theories.

Gods without worshippers are like kings without subjects: pointless. If everyone dies The Many Faced God has no purpose. Seems to me he’d be interested in the survival of humanity. There is no death unless first there is life.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,258
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
If GRRM ever produces the actual ending we may not have to speculate. In the meantime, I’m going entertain my own theories.

Gods without worshippers are like kings without subjects: pointless. If everyone dies The Many Faced God has no purpose. Seems to me he’d be interested in the survival of humanity. There is no death unless first there is life.

Speculate away, but it already happened and the writers did not properly set it up, if it's supposed to be true. That's MY point.

Kind of the difference between great art and okay art.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Up the Wolves
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
19,626
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Pretty sure now we're getting Mad Queen Danerys. That's not to say that she won't win the throne.

I'm not denying that there haven't been dumb moments this season (like pretty much anything involving Euron Greyjoy), but there's enough good stuff that it exceeds my expectations.

Oh, and I'll never get this thing of people being mad at media because their overly elaborate pet theories turned out not to be true.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,258
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
There was some stuff i liked, some stuff that was really dumb (mostly about characterizations that seemed off or the SHITTY pacing of the episode).

 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,258
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Got a name for next week's episode already:




Honestly, I bet Meereen is looking better and better. Dany was loved there. She was Queen. The people were crazy about her. No one in Westeros cares about her or gives two shites about her claim to the throne. They don't want her. She'd have done better making a kingdom where she was planted and simply allying with a friendly Westeros leader, to build a world empire.

Times change, woman. Change with them, unless you want to lose everything you built.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Up the Wolves
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
19,626
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
There was some stuff i liked, some stuff that was really dumb (mostly about characterizations that seemed off or the SHITTY pacing of the episode).


I thought that Euron Dragon bit was really stupid, just like almost any scene featuring the show version of that character, who is basically a slightly more evil budget Jack Sparrow. With the books you understand why he freaked out even the rest of the Greyjoys
, but this guy? Not so much.

I normally don't obsess about strategy in these kinds of things, partially because it's not like I have a track record of planning successful medieval military engagements. I'm sure there are history buffs out there better equipped than I am, but when watching the show, and normally I don't even see holes in the strategy. That said, would it have hurt for Danerys to have any other strategy other than just rushing headlong into the greyjoy fleet? It can fly! It can go from like any direction. Why not try catching the fleet from the rear, or using some kind of diversion (even if you don't have a fleet, you have another dragon!) I know her first opponents were aristocratic slavers who got others to do the fighting for them, but I can't really suspend my belief that she could have tried something a little bit more complicated.

 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,258
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Yeah, I was thinking there are a lot of ways you can approach something from the air. You can even approach it from straight overhead, from a great height. How steep are the angles from the surface they have control over for those things? Didn't look like they have a high angle of attack. And if you can still swivel them, then you don't have to turn a boat, but if you swivel around too far your own masts now fall within the line of fire.

Of course, the other issue is -- recon. If you're flying that high in the sky, isn't it rather hard to be surprised by a fleet of ships unless they were somehow cloaked (fog, smoke, etc)? Unless of course you're being a dumbass and not even paying attention while being in the backyard of the enemy castle. Jesus. Ships aren't that fast in comparison.

I'm not experienced in war strategy but I'm not dumb either, and I'm just kind of flabbergasted by all of this... it's like they didn't bother with a modicum of research or they didn't care (because hey we just have six episodes this season andpressedfortimesoletsjustplowahead!) But hey we knew that after episode 3.


----

In other news, found this. Yeah, apparently they didn't really have anything complicated planned with Bran and the NK. Pretty much looked like it came across.

‘Game of Thrones’: Bran on His Future and the Night King’s Ultimate Fate - The New York Times

Q: Although they did share a meaningful look. What was going on between them, in that moment?

A: The reasoning behind that wasn’t actually in the script, but [the director Miguel Sapochnik] and I came up with this idea that the look Bran gives the Night King is one of pity. Bran saw the creation of the Night King, or the first White Walker, or whatever. He realizes that he was once just a normal guy who was forcibly strapped to a tree, and had a piece of dragonglass plunged in his heart. He didn’t ask to become this raving, crazy ice killer. So it’s a bit like a Frankenstein’s monster scenario. He was forced into this situation, and he was trapped into this Night King’s body, and programmed to kill everyone. So we tried to get a moment where Bran is feeling sorry for him. Bran is looking at this ancient being who didn’t want to become this murderer, but is. And the reason the Night King takes so long is that he’s been programmed to destroy the Three-Eyed Raven from the moment he was created, so he’s taking a moment to savor it.

...Q: Vladimir Furdik, who plays the Night King, reminded us on Twitter of the importance of his touch. He marked Bran before, but with his death, is that completely gone? Or is it still there?

A: It’s still there. It’s kind of like frostbite. But if the Night King is dead, I can’t see how it will have any supernatural connection anymore. Without a Night King, it’s redundant

And oh hey, yeah, it wasn't Bran being empathetic for once...

Q: Beyond his powers, Bran’s also able to help validate the redemption of other characters, such as Jaime previously and Theon in this battle. Both of them have done really awful things to him in the past, and have tried to rectify that. And perhaps because Bran is beyond caring, it’s very easy for him to forgive?

A: I don’t think it’s a question of Bran forgiving them. There’s nothing personal when Bran tells Theon, “You’re a good man.” What he’s basically doing there is that he knows that Arya is running and charging on her way to save the day, and Bran recognizes that he needs to buy some more time. And that’s a real moment there where Theon could give up again, as we’ve seen him do several times before. He looks at the Night King like, is he just going to run away or give up? And Bran recognizes that Theon needs that final push to give it one last go, to buy enough time for Arya.

The interview's worth a read. It just does reveal however that there's not a lot of complexity in what's going on with Bran. It's a bit underwhelming.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,258
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Oh snap.
(Revelation about word of Cersei's pregnancy in Ep. 4)

 

Deprecator

Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Messages
584
Who's pregnant, who's proposing to whom, who's sleeping with whom, spotting the virgins, "don't go, stay with me" discussions... felt more like a run of the mill soap opera than a game of thrones episode. The battle scene might have made up for it but alas, my enthusiasm for Black Sails has left me with a rather crude and prejudicial impression of archaic seafaring warfare, which among other things includes crow's nests, kaleidoscopes and the ability to spot enemy ships well before they're within range of cannon fire. Like what... was the entirety of the enemy fleet shrouded by some mysterious bend or something?

Tyrion trying to reason with Cersei also felt like a bit of a farce, but to be fair, I guess they don't realize just how perfectly qualified Arya is to simply travel to king's landing and assassinate her. Pretty sure Cersei was one of the very first names put on the list, and it's hard to believe that Arya would succeed with the undead king but then fail to replicate that success with a mere human.
 

anticlimatic

Permabanned
Joined
Oct 17, 2013
Messages
3,299
MBTI Type
INTP
I like that Danny is starting to be revealed as just another power hungry at-all-costs narcissistic tyrant type, which I've suspected all along. Her whole "the throne is rightfully mine by birth" shtick is kind of a moot point now that it, you know, isn't. Introducing Jon as a possible reluctant ruler King Arthur style kind of goes against the entire 'everyone is terrible' philosophical premise of the show. He's probably the one most people want to see on the throne at this point, which gives him a good shot since HBO is writing more for the majority of viewers now, but I wouldn't be surprised either if all three contenders are dead and Sansa sits on the throne instead. That feels more appropriate in the year of Captain Marvel. We shall see.
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
15,917
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
Oh snap.
(Revelation about word of Cersei's pregnancy in Ep. 4)


If Bam Margeara were a pirate, he would be Euron Greyjoy.

 

Yuurei

Noncompliant
Joined
Sep 29, 2016
Messages
4,506
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
8w7
I like that Danny is starting to be revealed as just another power hungry at-all-costs narcissistic tyrant type, which I've suspected all along. Her whole "the throne is rightfully mine by birth" shtick is kind of a moot point now that it, you know, isn't. Introducing Jon as a possible reluctant ruler King Arthur style kind of goes against the entire 'everyone is terrible' philosophical premise of the show. He's probably the one most people want to see on the throne at this point, which gives him a good shot since HBO is writing more for the majority of viewers now, but I wouldn't be surprised either if all three contenders are dead and Sansa sits on the throne instead. That feels more appropriate in the year of Captain Marvel. We shall see.

Psh, to me this was obvious several seasons ago. It's why I do not like her at all.

But I like her better than Jon who is the Marriest of the Sue's (also his actor is a reprehensibly whiny, arrogant little bitch) Sooo I am not all that invested in the series anymore as it currently looks like they will end up being the "heroes no one wanted but everyone deserves"

Surprised Euron is still around.
...I actually have not seen the last two seasons as I don't have HBO. just been reading spoilers here and there.
 
Top