Game of Thrones!

[Totenkindly]

Ah, I see, I wouldnt disagree as of all the characters she's trained with the most martial arts masters and learned the most different fighting styles.

I'm biased perhaps too but I think the rapier and dagger are the best weapons, though I've not seen the episode were she uses the two headed spear thing that she asked that dude to make for her so I dont know how that performs, it looked a little like Klingon or Predator weaponary to me, though that other guy who fought the Mountain had one and used it in a sort of Wu Shu style.

Yes, that episode was last night -- the one everyone is referring to now. She did use the weapon -- both ends of it -- for a time before she lost it. Oberyn used his spear more like a scorpion's tail -- primarily the one end of it (but it was poisoned), even if he did also use it to deflect and occasionally block. Arya used her weapon more like you'd use a slashing/thrusting quarterstaff, both ends regularly as well as bashing and blocking regularly.


----------------

General thought on Episode 3: I am both delighted and disappointed. The delight was first (tonally the episode was consistent and well-produced musically and visually, even if a number of fans complained about the lack of lighting), the disappointment later mainly because in hindsight it seems like a pretty straightforward and simple end to a conflict that has hovered over the entire series; I suspect GRRM's version is going to be more complex and have Bran play a more active role.

But it's one reason why I don't really get involved with "fan theories" in these last seasons that are off-book. I wouldn't look for patterns in the showrunners' long-term story if they weren't leftover from GRRM's books overtly, they tend to take a much more straightforward approach, and everything is more obvious. They are probably not gonna indulge in complicated theories about who will do who.

(For example, I really am expecting either Tyrion or Jaime to kill Cersei, and directly. Nothing complicated. But if GRRM ever finishes his book, he might handle it differently.)




EDIT: Yeah, some of my coworkers were discussing over lunch, my son and I were discussing the episode in IM (both of us have mixed feelings), and I simultaneously ran across this article in a news feed... I can understand this kind of response. It's like if I put blinders on and just enjoy the episode in its own context, I'm okay -- but if my mind starts thinking about it, I'm much more dissatisfied. (Still, I kind of reconciled myself a few seasons ago to not expecting as much.(

Game Of Thrones Season 8 Episode 3 Review: And So It All Amounts To Nothing


Also ran across this tactical analysis. I had a lot of similar thoughts while it was all unfolding on screen last night.

1. No true recon done.
2. Main field is completely bare, nothing to break rush of large wave.
3. Dothraki charge -- WHY WHY WHY? (I know why: Because it looked damned awesome watching the flaming swords all go out in the dark. Emotional experience for audience, terrible strategy on ground.)
4. Main forces beyond the protective barrier... why? Trebuchet also located beyond the barrier, resulting in early loss.
5. Barrier not wide enough, easily piled through especially when enemy is undead.
6. No navigational elements for dragons in the dark, lack of foresight about effect of smoke and fog.
7. No foolproof way to light the barrier.
8. Not enough folks on the walls / defenses to dislodge folks from walls.
9. Sticking unarmed and vulnerable in the crypt when your enemy can raise the dead
10. Crappy position for ARCHERS in the grove -- on the ground, no choke points, facing endless enemy resource

I think the most glaring issue was the inability to leverage the dragons. They did get some bearing at one point and laid down a lot of fire, but a lot of resources were lost by then, and it didn't last long.

 

[Hive]

I was on the edge of my seat the entire time but the thrill of the action can't distract me from the fact that from a story/writing POV the episode sucked.

- No major character died. The army of the dead were clearly steamrolling the living. The dothraki army was wiped out in minutes. The unsullied didn't stand a chance. Yet, the main characters could be swarmed with wights and still make it out alive. This is not only annoying because it makes little sense given the power we saw demonstrated by the walkers, ultimately it made the battle lack any consequence at all, and real heavy impact was sacrificed for cheap thrills.

- Night King's death was borderline deus ex machina. There's a whole stealth scene with Arya sneaking through a room of about 5 walkers and barely making it out alive... Yet she manages to run past the whole army without interruption and gets a surprise attack on the Night King. Was really weird. Also felt incongruent that NK is completely unscathed by dragonfire, yet valyrian steel to the belly is instadeath. There might be some explanation for this I've missed, I'm not well read on the lore, but still felt really lame. What was the point of this? To make Arya look cool? Jon is supposedly the reincarnation of the hero who previously brought an end to the Long Night. Bran, the Three-Eyed Raven, is the Night King's nemesis going back ages. Not having either of them defeat the Night King robbed them of their importance to the story (and their relationship to the Night King) that has been building up over seasons.

- And all of this essentially means The Long Night is a completely useless plot point. The Big Threat has been dealt with. Everything the series has been building up to was swiftly done away with, by a character with no connection to the Night King, with no real sacrifices made, rendering the whole thing about squabbling families and houses being a silly concern in comparison to the real threat pointless.

The thrills of the episode came at a heavy price. This might be the worst thing to have happened to the series.

 

[Hive]

And oh yeah, what the hell was Bran doing literally all of the episode? He warged into some ravens and spent the rest of the time being good for nothing but bait. Why? What for? Great way to bring his entire arc to a screeching halt.

 

[Lark]

I was on the edge of my seat the entire time but the thrill of the action can't distract me from the fact that from a story/writing POV the episode sucked.

- No major character died. The dothraki army was wiped out in minutes. The unsullied didn't stand a chance. The army of the dead were clearly steamrolling the living. Yet, the main characters could be swarmed with wights and still make it out alive. This is not only annoying because it makes little sense given the power we saw demonstrated by the walkers, ultimately it makes the battle lack any consequence at all, and real heavy impact was sacrificed for cheap thrills.

- Night King's death was borderline deus ex machina. There's a whole stealth scene with Arya sneaking through a room of about 5 walkers and barely makes it out alive... Yet she manages to run past the whole army without interruption and gets a surprise attack on the Night King. Was really weird. Also felt incongruent that NK is completely unscathed by dragonfire, yet valyrian steel to the belly is instadeath. There might be some explanation for this I've missed, I'm not well read on the lore, but still felt really lame. What was the point of this? To make Arya look cool? Jon is supposedly the reincarnation of the hero who previously brought an end to the Long Night. Bran, the Three-Eyed Raven, is the Night King's nemesis going back ages. Not having either of them defeat the Night King robbed them of their importance to the story (and their relationship to the Night King) that has been building up over seasons.

- And all of this essentially means The Long Night is a completely useless plot point. The Big Threat has been dealt with. Everything the series has been building up to was swiftly done away with, by a character with no connection to the Night King, with no real sacrifices made, rendering the whole thing about squabbling families and houses paling in comparison to the real threat pointless.

The thrills of the episode came at a heavy price. This might be the worst thing to have happened to the series.

Would any of that lead you to believe that wasnt the Night King?

Wouldnt it make sense for him to fake out the human forces at Winterfell with some imposter while he wipes out Cersei and then wipe out the remaining force at Winterfell on his way back into the deep north?

Long Night/Winter commenced it lasts what a hundred or thousand years or something in Westeros?

 

[Lark]

And oh yeah, what the hell was Bran doing literally all of the episode? He warged into some ravens and spent the rest of the time being good for nothing but bait. Why? What for? Great way to bring his entire arc to a screeching halt.

When this whole fake out craic is discovered for what it is the real ultimate battle will take place, which I'm guessing may involve either JS or Tyrian on a dragon, possibly both, which will also be Bran controlled via warging.

That's provided they do a triumph of humankind at all, they could just do the whole NK ending I just discussed.

 

[Hive]

Would any of that lead you to believe that wasnt the Night King?

Wouldnt it make sense for him to fake out the human forces at Winterfell with some imposter while he wipes out Cersei and then wipe out the remaining force at Winterfell on his way back into the deep north?

Long Night/Winter commenced it lasts what a hundred or thousand years or something in Westeros?

When this whole fake out craic is discovered for what it is the real ultimate battle will take place, which I'm guessing may involve either JS or Tyrian on a dragon, possibly both, which will also be Bran controlled via warging.

That's provided they do a triumph of humankind at all, they could just do the whole NK ending I just discussed.

All of the wights collapsed when the Night King died, remember? Why would that happen if it was some imposter? Plus I find it hard to believe there'll be some real ultimate battle with the army of the dead seeing how the living have been utterly eviscerated already. What's left, the Lannister army? Commanded by Cersei? The final boss here will most likely be Euron and Cersei, now relieved of the threat of the undead army and intent on seizing power over what is left.

Regarding Bran, he's basically Dr. Manhattan now. Powerful and omniscient but paid for this with his humanity. He doesn't seem to care at all to get involved in anybody's business, so I doubt he'll do something like warg into a dragon (altho there's so much fan servicing going on that this might happen). Fighting the Night King would've been different given they were nemeses.

 

[Lark]

All of the wights collapsed when the Night King died, remember? Why would that happen if it was some imposter? Plus I find it hard to believe there'll be some real ultimate battle with the army of the dead seeing how the living have been utterly eviscerated already. What's left, the Lannister army? Commanded by Cersei? The final boss here will most likely be Euron and Cersei, now relieved of the threat of the undead army and intent on seizing power over what is left.

Regarding Bran, he's basically Dr. Manhattan now. Powerful and omniscient but paid for this with his humanity. He doesn't seem to care at all to get involved in anybody's business, so I doubt he'll do something like warg into a dragon (altho there's so much fan servicing going on that this might happen). Fighting the Night King would've been different given they were nemeses.

The Golden army is stationed at Kingslanding, the army of the Iron Bank, although without the elephants.

Them, Lannister forces and the Pirates could face off I guess.

Although I think there's still a reborn Magic, Dragons, Humanity battle to resolve itself, like I think that the eunnich guy could be some sort of demon avatar rather than a human, remember he described some sort of strange ritual he was involved in and he also did that clever split second travelling thing fans were obsessed about a while back.

Which might make him an original magic dude rather than a reborn magic post-Dani in the bonfire thing.

I'm just freestyling, so, so, so many great fan theories when it comes to this show.

 

[Deprecator]

Prior to the airing of episode 3 I was under the fullest expectation that the undead army would overwhelm the human forces and be on the verge of a resounding victory, only for the king to be killed right before all seemed loss. To this end I think it came across as an underwhelming filler episode -- you can only have so many scenes where John Snow and Daenerys are riding on dragons together, only so many scenes where dragons are breathing fire behind enemy lines, and only so many scenes where armored children are shouting at people to "man the walls". I don't know if it was too long, not enough dialogue, or if it was just that Cersei and little finger were not featured, but in any event, if Stannis's siege on king's landing left me spellbound and captivated, then by comparison the fight against the undead left a lot to be desired.

Thankfully I don't think that the show was about this final fight against the undead so much as I think it's an epic struggle to determine who will sit on the iron throne. If little finger is truly dead and out of the contest then I do think the final season will be a bit of a flop, though to be fair, historically content creators in general tend to struggle when it comes to ending these types of prolonged sagas. Regardless, the outcome now sets the stage for Cersei to swoop in and work her magic. Complicated and perhaps more ruthless than she is evil, I think she's really going to have to come to terms with her feelings for Jaimie and where they place on her list of priorities.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It worked for me. Personally I dig the fact that it isn't any of the characters who were built up as being special and important in the grand scheme of things or who might fit into big prophecies (Melisandre's claim in season 3 was mostly that they would "meet again" and hardly counts; I forgot about the eyes entirely... the two don't even meet in the books; it's another witchy figure who gives her prophecies at that point who I suspect is a Child of the Forest) . It would have fallen flat if it would have been Danerys or Jon. This was something that in retrospect seems like it was set up for a while, even though I didn't really see it happening that way. To me it felt in the best tradition of the show / novels.

Like with The Last Jedi, I don't really care that all the fan theories were wrong, and I like that something happened that I wasn't able to predict, and yet, didn't come out of nowhere. Nice to see all that time spent chasing cats finally paid off. And it's kind of significant when you think about what the dagger has done, how the Night's King was created, and who Arya was hanging around with in Braavos.

I like the first three episodes of this season much more than I like the first three episodes of the last two seasons. Episodes 1 and 4 of 7 were pretty strong, but a lot of the rest of it fell flat. I'm sure I'm going to see lots of dumb "Why didn't the rebels use hyperspace ramming before?"-style hottakes, though ( like hiding on the back of one of the ships in the massive fleet that's pursuing you is somehow more believable... I guess those shiny lights on Star Destroyers aren't windows where people on the ship would have been able to see a giant hunk of metal blocking their view? )

I liked how hellish and apocalyptic so much of it seemed. It felt for a while like "this is the way the world would end" and that was really cool for to see that nailed so effectively. I never thought that the show was going to end with the Army of the Dead winning, so it doesn't feel so anticlimiactic to me, although I did think everything would get fucked up and the Night's King would make his way to King's Landing. I actually think it's more interesting this way, though. Now that the big heroic battle for Man has been won, there's still all these dynastic struggles to deal with. And of course, I thought the part with the Dothraki torches was very cleverly done, and an excellent way to build tension. I also didn't have trouble seeing things except for some of the overhead shots of the army of the dead outside of Winterfell. And the dragons in the snowstorm, but we weren't really supposed to be able to see that. Zombie bridges, castle walls crumbling under torchlight, the crypt, the castle stealth mission; it was very effective imagery.

Anyway, I'm satisfied about the way this show is coming to an end, and they've exceeded my expectations so far, which were rather lowered by the dumb decisions of the characters last season, and the "oooh, we better simplify this narrative fast" attitude of sseason 6. Season 5 was somewhere between those and the first four seasons for me; it had some good parts but also when the watered-down cliffnotes approach to things really started to become glaring.

I'm watching excitedly to see now if Danerys goes mad king on everybody, Cleganebowl, heroic sacrifices of a few major players, and just desserts of others. I suppose the big question mark is s how the Stark/Targaryen alliance is going to pan out after the end of the existential threat.

(Oh, and now I'm really pumped about D&D's Star Wars films, although I expect them to remain PG-13. )

 

[Totenkindly]

If I have to say what I appreciate most from the episode, it's simply the chaos.

I have various complaints about sensible battle strategies and esp the overall big arc of the show, but it did give a grounds-eye view of what a war field could actually be like. People aren't following sensible plans. Maybe you have a plan/mission but everyone else is abandoning theirs and/or things have gone to the hell and you know the plan won't work, so should you even stick to your mission? You can't see shit, it's either too dark or too smoky or too foggy or too loud and crazy. No one knows where anyone else is. And there's a chance every moment you're going to die, possibly from an attack you weren't aware of a few seconds ago.

I have never been in a warzone, but this is what I would expect it to be like in these kinds of conditions. It felt very "grounds eye view," the subjective experience of being in this situation.

(The other thing is simply the music. Djawadi made some counter-intuitive musical choices especially late in the episode that I think were great.)

(Oh, and now I'm really pumped about D&D's Star Wars films, although I expect them to remain PG-13. )

What, we're not gonna see tri-boobs and flesh peddlers at the local cantina now?

I'm cool with them doing their own Star wars film series, because it will be theirs and can be evaluated and have the expectations set on their own sensibilities. I think it's clear that they can put together a story well enough. There have been some decent enough dramatic episodes. (And it can't be worse than what we've already seen in Star Wars.) It's just in this case they were trying to complete someone else's story essentially and the pieces are enjoyable on their own merits most of the time but don't really line up as well with the original story as they should have.

 

[anticlimatic]

This episode made slogging through every cynical and sadistic episode that came before it all worth it. Well done, HBO.

 

[Hive]

I've been thinking about it some more and realized that not only did they fuck up Jon's and Bran's arcs, but also Arya's.

The theme of her arc has been revenge. It's what she's been obsessed with since the beheading of Ned Stark. And she wanted it so badly that she eventually ended up with the Faceless Men in order to accomplish this goal. This presented a conflict however: in order to be granted the power to exact her revenge, she'd have to give up her identity as Arya Stark. The Faceless Men do not serve themselves, only the Many-Faced God, and thus the cost of this power would be to let go of her identity and thus her desire for revenge. It's a conflict of duty (to the Many-Faced God) and honor/revenge (for her family). All these seasons of plotting and training should've culminated in a climax of this conflict (perhaps having her dish out revenge, but then having to deal with the Faceless Men for her disloyalty) and bring us to a conclusion of her duty/revenge arc. Instead, all of this building her up into a skilled assassin obsessed with revenge has only been to serve a "cool moment". Now she's the hero of Westeros. She no longer has to choose between duty and honor, her revenge arc is kind of thrown to the wayside, they let her have the cake and eat it too.

Hacks.

 

[Jaq]

I've been thinking about it some more and realized that not only did they fuck up Jon's and Bran's arcs, but also Arya's.

The theme of her arc has been revenge. It's what she's been obsessed with since the beheading of Ned Stark. And she wanted it so badly that she eventually ended up with the Faceless Men in order to accomplish this goal. This presented a conflict however: in order to be granted the power to exact her revenge, she'd have to give up her identity as Arya Stark. The Faceless Men do not serve themselves, only the Many-Faced God, and thus the cost of this power would be to let go of her identity and thus her desire for revenge. It's a conflict of duty (to the Many-Faced God) and honor/revenge (for her family). All these seasons of plotting and training should've culminated in a climax of this conflict (perhaps having her dish out revenge, but then having to deal with the Faceless Men for her disloyalty) and bring us to a conclusion of her duty/revenge arc. Instead, all of this building her up into a skilled assassin obsessed with revenge has only been to serve a "cool moment". Now she's the hero of Westeros. She no longer has to choose between duty and honor, her revenge arc is kind of thrown to the wayside, they let her have the cake and eat it too.

Hacks.

I've lost faith in the HBO series due to crap like this.

 

[anticlimatic]

I've lost faith in the HBO series due to crap like this.

Am I the only person that likes the show more since HBO took over where the books left off?

 

[Jaq]

Am I the only person that likes the show more since HBO took over where the books left off?

Well, I'm just salty that

they killed off Littlefinger.

 

[Totenkindly]

Am I the only person that likes the show more since HBO took over where the books left off?

Yeah. I think that could be it.

 

[Yuurei]

My favorite thing about this show is the overall theme; that impudent, petty rage will destroy you. Almost everyone in this show has screwed themselves over making decision based on their anger in the moment rather than stopping to think about their choices and the consequences.

Spoiler:


Theon was my favorite character ( Because reasons, shuttup) I knew he wouldn't make it but I am just so Goddamned glad he didn't sacrifice himself to save Sansa ( The only character I dislike more than Jon Snow) I was okay with it.

The thing with Arya...eh. It wasn't terrible but it was far from great. I call it a " The baby shot Mr Burns moment." It didn't happen because circumstances dictated it was the most likely outcome. It happened because she was the most unlikely-and therefore the MOST likely to do it-purely for the "surprise ( not surprise.) value.

 

[anticlimatic]

My favorite thing about this show is the overall theme; that impudent, petty rage will destroy you.

Is that really the overall theme? I thought it was PTSD and its sociopathic consequences.

 

[Population: 1]

It’s a tale of the destructive nature of humans- towards nature and themselves.

Of course it’s also about love and family. Loyalty and honor. Order and chaos. Manipulation and power. Revenge and redemption.

It’s about quite a lot actually.

 

[Totenkindly]

My favorite thing about this show is the overall theme; that impudent, petty rage will destroy you. Almost everyone in this show has screwed themselves over making decision based on their anger in the moment rather than stopping to think about their choices and the consequences.

Spoiler:


Theon was my favorite character ( Because reasons, shuttup) I knew he wouldn't make it but I am just so Goddamned glad he didn't sacrifice himself to save Sansa ( The only character I dislike more than Jon Snow) I was okay with it.

The thing with Arya...eh. It wasn't terrible but it was far from great. I call it a " The baby shot Mr Burns moment." It didn't happen because circumstances dictated it was the most likely outcome. It happened because she was the most unlikely-and therefore the MOST likely to do it-purely for the "surprise ( not surprise.) value.

Weirdly, they have added the Behind the Scenes commentary to the episode on HBO GO now, and they said they've been planning it to be Arya for a few years now... which means since during Season 6 or so now....

I haven't bothered to review all the prophecy stuff, but off-hand it's not clear how she aligns with any of it.

Hated Theon in the first few seasons, I did grow to love him, though. Some of the characters did not have growth arcs; he did. He did dumb things to prove he was a good man (in a corrupt definition) early in his life, then he was screwed over repeatedly and badly (some of which he brought on himself); but he came through the fire and really earned any redemption through blood, sweat, tears, raw courage.