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  1. #1141
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I think Arya not killing the Hound is also reflective of the lessons she learned from another kill they had along their journey. That of the old man that Arya and the Hound comes across, severely wounded by the raid, and dying, and the Hound does the merciful thing, giving him his last drop of water, and then killing him, ending his pain.

    I think Arya, although she begrudgingly accepts the Hound as a person, and that he's not all bad, still is not completely convinced that he deserves mercy, a merciful death. Justice versus mercy. Imagining that they lie on the opposite ends of a continuum/spectrum.

    Getting to know him along their journey, the clear lines between Justice versus Mercy, with regards to the Hound, blurs for her. So, she detaches herself, and leaves him to his own fate.

    Justice, as she had initially promised to carry out, would be to kill him for killing the butcher's boy, on her terms, not his, when he's not wanting death, but she gives it to him, regardless, thereby delivering justice. Hence, why he made it to her (s)hit list. However, as time went out, I think she started to falter from that conviction of delivering Justice, with regards to the Hound.

    However, she also saw examples of mercy, a merciful death, and, I don't think she was there yet, to jump from one end of the spectrum of Justice, all the way to the other end, towards believing that the Hound deserved a merciful death.

    In Arya's eyes, he might no longer deserve the death she planned to carry out, in the name of Justice, but that doesn't mean he automatically makes it to the complete opposite end of the spectrum, towards yet deserving mercy. Morality, as GoT points out, is rarely black and white, and the journey from Justice to mercy is not one step over, but a process.

    So she leaves the decision, the situation, where the colliding conclusion between justice and mercy, in that case, could have been one and the same. Hound's death. However, the delivery of it must be what defines justice from mercy. And, as this case wouldn't allow that distinction between delivery: would it be justice? would it mercy? She gave him neither.


    Well, I haven't read the books, but maybe Arya was deciding whether or not she was going to kill him right there. Maybe she wanted to listen to him first. It's hard to say, I think that scene was one of the most ambivalent of the whole show to me. And I think perhaps on purpose.

    So I try to stay away from book spoilers but I heard somewhere that maybe the hound does survive and that's why Arya let him live.

    Again, that's why I hate the book spoilers cuz I want to analyze that scene just by itself, her leaving him for dead (at least that's my interpretation). And actually I do block out whatever the book says because many scenes in the show ARE totally
    different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    LOL, that's Pod's secret with the ladies, is it?
    100% Notice back at King's Landing all the furtive glances and girls whispering about Pod's big Rod. And this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    I totally forgot that -- yeah, he got a free night in the brothel in Season 3 (?), and apparently he was quite the memorable member according to the girls working that shift.

    Yes, memorable "member" Jen. Clever girl
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

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  2. #1142

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    Well, I haven't read the books, but maybe Arya was deciding whether or not she was going to kill him right there. Maybe she wanted to listen to him first. It's hard to say, I think that scene was one of the most ambivalent of the whole show to me. And I think perhaps on purpose.

    So I try to stay away from book spoilers but I heard somewhere that maybe the hound does survive and that's why Arya let him live.

    Again, that's why I hate the book spoilers cuz I want to analyze that scene just by itself, her leaving him for dead (at least that's my interpretation). And actually I do block out whatever the book says because many scenes in the show ARE totally
    different.
    I haven't read the books either, nor looked at any (much: I have started reading up online, re: Jaime/Brienne because I love them so, and don't care if I'm spoiled ) online materials.

    but I heard somewhere that maybe the hound does survive and that's why Arya let him live.
    I don't think Arya would have been able to know, either way, if her leaving him, would ensure that he survives. So, I don't believe that angle, that Arya let him live because she knew the Hound would survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Most viewers at this point are considering that scene a misstep on the part of the showrunners and director; based on the bombardment of interviews after that episode aired, none of the latter seemed to have planned for that encounter to be anything but consensual, but pretty much the majority of viewers (including myself) have viewed it as rape on some level.

    The scene was apparently bungled in the writing, directing, and/or acting. I mentally throw it out in terms of continuity. Considering how decent other scenes have been, I'm kind of surprised at how off the mark they were on how that scene was coming across.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    He didn't. Their relationship is just that fucked up.
    That's interesting, that it was not intended to come off as rape.

    I don't know about the books, where it seems like it is cleary not rape, but consensual? Is that how the book reads? What do you think then was the intention behind that scene on screen? I mean, what was Jaime's midset at the time?

    That he was so fed up of being pulled by Cersei's strings, always on HER terms, that he finally asserted himself? And in front of their dead son, that he refuses to outright acknowledge? Or even feel any emotion towards?

    Yeah, all kinds of fucked up.

  3. #1143
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    That article on themarysue site has a lot of info in it -- probably the most useful.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #1145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    That article on themarysue site has a lot of info in it -- probably the most useful.


    I thought the scene was rapey in the show, but I thought it was rapey in the book, too. I don't know why so many people think it isn't rapey, but I do think it might have something to do with cultural attitudes. Perhaps even a rape culture.

    Before I proceed further, I would like to know why men's opinions on this are important, since I have been repeatedly told that they are not. I will be happy to discuss this, however, the discussion must take place with a certain amount of good faith.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
    The vagabond who is rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes you once wore.

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    More from Arya (Maisie Williams)

    What’s your take on the Arya we’re left with at the end of Season 4—the one standing over the dying Hound, taking his coins, and basically saying, “Sorry, pal, you can’t keep up?”

    I still think it’s the same Arya we’ve seen all year, she’s just putting everything she’s learned into practice now. When she picks up the silver, it’s not a spiteful thing—she’s just doing what The Hound taught her, since he was the one who said, “Dead men don’t need silver.” And in her eyes, she thinks he’s dead. But the big change for Arya happened in Episode 1 when she kills Polliver, and people have loved their relationship this season, but he’s also been telling her constantly how she doesn’t know how to fight and reminding her that everyone’s dead. They seem like funny scenes when you turn a blind eye to the fact that this is a little girl who’s trying to stay alive in this very unforgiving world, so having someone tell you these things all the time isn’t helpful. She’s not Arya anymore; she’s not the girl who everyone thinks she is and likes to believe she is. If anyone is in that environment long enough, they’re not going to have their head screwed on perfectly.

    The Hound is begging her to kill him, but she won't grant him his last wish.

    Exactly! It’s like that whole thing at the end of Breaking Bad when Walter gives Jesse the gun and says, “You want this,” and Jesse turns away the gun and says, “No, you want this.” She won’t grant him his last wish, and after everything they’ve been through together, Arya chooses to walk away.
    The Perks of Being Arya Stark - Yahoo News
    Last edited by Bellflower; 06-25-2014 at 07:28 AM.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #1147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That article on themarysue site has a lot of info in it -- probably the most useful.
    I think what GRRM said about the scene, in that article, is really illuminating.

    The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other’s company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that’s just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

    Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime’s POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don’t know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

    If the show had retained some of Cersei’s dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression — but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

    Source:

    Here
    The fact that, in the book, they see each other for the first time, after everything, and although it's horribly wrong and not the place for the reunion that defines who they are, they still can't help but give in to it. It gives a more transparent motivation to their actions, mainly Jaime's. Compared to the book, on the show, it kind of comes out of nowhere, as Jaime has been back for a while.

    And, yeah, a bit more/different dialogue from Cersei would have done wonders, something as simple as, "No...not here..."

    But that was good insight into the psychology fo the characters, or at least, what was intended to be.

    Thanks for that!

  8. #1148

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    That's interesting, that it was not intended to come off as rape.

    I don't know about the books, where it seems like it is cleary not rape, but consensual? Is that how the book reads? What do you think then was the intention behind that scene on screen? I mean, what was Jaime's midset at the time?

    That he was so fed up of being pulled by Cersei's strings, always on HER terms, that he finally asserted himself? And in front of their dead son, that he refuses to outright acknowledge? Or even feel any emotion towards?

    Yeah, all kinds of fucked up.
    I don't recall if that kind of scene even appears in the book, but that is how I read the scene in the series.

  9. #1149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I don't recall if that kind of scene even appears in the book, but that is how I read the scene in the series.
    In the book, Jaime doesn't get to King's Landing until after the Purple Wedding. This scene happens pretty much the night he gets back (And yes, it's still in front of Joffrey's corpse.) . Cersei does say "not here", but my understanding is that if you go ahead anyway, that's rape. But then again, I'm not really someone to look to for sage counsel on romantic relationships, let alone sex, let alone incestual sex in front of incest babies. I thought I was asexual (sexy tiger purr) until the end of my sophmore year in high school, so yeah, do not ask me about this. (Looking back, I liked girls before this, but I didn't know what to make of it, really.)

    Presumably they changed this around because they want to explore Jaime and Joffrey's relationship a bit more. He does remark that he didn't feel particularly saddened by the death. As a consequence, we got Brienne's story getting kicked off early, and being much improved for it.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
    The vagabond who is rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes you once wore.

  10. #1150
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Re: Podrick Payne's wang

    IIRC, Varys asked Ros later if it was his size that made him such a hit with the ladies, but she says they all reported that he was about average in size. That wasn't it.

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