Game of Thrones!

[rav3n]

Has anyone gotten the same pattern on Jaime, that of a weak man who mirrors who he's closest to, at the moment?

 

[Totenkindly]

Has anyone gotten the same pattern on Jaime, that of a weak man who mirrors who he's closest to, at the moment?

He's really an interesting character to me because I don't work like him at all.

He seems to be practical, somewhat compassionate, used to be cocky and self-assured until he lost his hand. I'm not sure why he fixated on Cersei, although what we're seen of him with Tywin in the first few seasons suggests there was a huge "cold vs warm" issue there, Tywin was the daddy who kept guilting and shaming Jaime to mold him into what he wanted from him, which Jaime resented but had trouble pushing aside. Some of this "weakness" shouldn't have been weakness, I think it's just Jaime trying to do good by the person he is with and caring for everyone's feelings... but at the same time, he was also damaged badly by his father and I think it made him weaker in some ways, he's still trying to climb out from under Tywin's shadow and shame.

That whole thing about being the Kingslayer too really kills him and erodes his confidence. Everyone despises him for breaking a vow of loyalty as an act of compassion, which makes Jaime seem a little desperate to win back approval / have a better public image, and leaves him wrestling with being compassionate because it screwed him over so bad in the past.

... anyway, tl;dr, Jaime still wants to be loved on some level, and it makes him weaker. I don't really want to call his ability to empathize "weakness" but it can leave him open to being manipulated and/or blind to certain realities. And yes, he does kind of mold himself to whoever he is with -- again, I think it's the "approval" factor at play.

 

[rav3n]

He's really an interesting character to me because I don't work like him at all.

He seems to be practical, somewhat compassionate, used to be cocky and self-assured until he lost his hand. I'm not sure why he fixated on Cersei, although what we're seen of him with Tywin in the first few seasons suggests there was a huge "cold vs warm" issue there, Tywin was the daddy who kept guilting and shaming Jaime to mold him into what he wanted from him, which Jaime resented but had trouble pushing aside. Some of this "weakness" shouldn't have been weakness, I think it's just Jaime trying to do good by the person he is with and caring for everyone's feelings... but at the same time, he was also damaged badly by his father and I think it made him weaker in some ways, he's still trying to climb out from under Tywin's shadow and shame.

That whole thing about being the Kingslayer too really kills him and erodes his confidence. Everyone despises him for breaking a vow of loyalty as an act of compassion, which makes Jaime seem a little desperate to win back approval / have a better public image, and leaves him wrestling with being compassionate because it screwed him over so bad in the past.

... anyway, tl;dr, Jaime still wants to be loved on some level, and it makes him weaker. I don't really want to call his ability to empathize "weakness" but it can leave him open to being manipulated and/or blind to certain realities. And yes, he does kind of mold himself to whoever he is with -- again, I think it's the "approval" factor at play.

Yeah, for sure, he's got daddy issues. It's as if Cersei is mommy and daddy to him since she shames him like Tywin did when he didn't behave and gives him sex/approval when she needs him. As a guess, he's an ISFJ loyalist.

There's a thread of nobility that runs through him. Unfortunately for GoT, redemption isn't the name of the game.

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah, for sure, he's got daddy issues. It's as if Cersei is mommy and daddy to him since she shames him like Tywin did when he didn't behave and gives him sex/approval when she needs him. As a guess, he's an ISFJ loyalist.

There's a thread of nobility that runs through him. Unfortunately for GoT, redemption isn't the name of the game.

I scan him as non-closure oriented, so ISFP.

But yeah, agreed about the nobility streak. There's something good in him. Brienne has tried to coax it out further. I think Jaime escaped from a lot of self-examination for so long by being the Golden Boy and a talented warrior; he had been able to rest on his laurels. Now that he has nothing (well, aside from Cersei, who seems to repulse him a bit more each day), he's had to find some reason to live... or he's just going to give up and die.

Out of the three, for some reason Cersei seems to be the one born without ethical altruism. She just sees the order of things in a certain way, and also is very aggressive at defending and maintaining her turf regardless of the cost.

 

[rav3n]

I scan him as non-closure oriented, so ISFP.

But yeah, agreed about the nobility streak. There's something good in him. Brienne has tried to coax it out further. I think Jaime escaped from a lot of self-examination for so long by being the Golden Boy and a talented warrior; he had been able to rest on his laurels. Now that he has nothing (well, aside from Cersei, who seems to repulse him a bit more each day), he's had to find some reason to live... or he's just going to give up and die.

Out of the three, for some reason Cersei seems to be the one born without ethical altruism. She just sees the order of things in a certain way, and also is very aggressive at defending and maintaining her turf regardless of the cost.

ISFP is also possible. I'm certainly not the best at typing which feeler type for sure, better at typing thinkers.

Jaime's at his best with Brienne and Tyrion, the two who have nobility. Mirror, mirror.

Agreed. That said, even though I despise Cersei, I was on her side against Ellaria since Myrcella was innocent and a sweet child. Ellaria and her poisonous children were too ruled by their emotions and made some piss, poor choices.

 

[Riva]

- Olenna Tyrell was right. They should have attacked King's Landing without listening to the men (thinking too much).

Take control first, build later. People would have hater Danny though, but time would have healed those wounds.

- Glad Jamie managed to take over Highgarden. I couldn't bear to see Euron Greyjoy take all the glory. Then again he deserved it. He fought bravely and destroyed the enemies fleet.

- I don't want the Sand Snakes (and Ellaria) to suffer, but they did deserve death for Myrcella (who was a sweetheart), Doran Martell and his son.

- Was sad to see Olenna Tyrell go like that. I though Highgarden had the best warriors? They fell so quick. Maybe Jamie and Randyll Tarly was too good?

[MENTION=22067]riva[/MENTION]
yet another comment on THAT topic
Jaime and Cercei...

Thanks, I already half read that some while back.

I see you and bechimo typing Jamie as a ISFX. When I was watching the first episode I thought to myself what a shitty ESTP e3 he is. I see him as a ESTP E3 who is becoming healthy thereby integrating/growing into a e6.

From an e3 description -

When moving in their Direction of Integration (growth), vain, deceitful Threes become more cooperative and committed to others, like healthy Sixes. Learn more about the arrows.

He is just maturing.

Just a thought.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Yeah, for sure, he's got daddy issues. It's as if Cersei is mommy and daddy to him since she shames him like Tywin did when he didn't behave and gives him sex/approval when she needs him. As a guess, he's an ISFJ loyalist.

There's a thread of nobility that runs through him. Unfortunately for GoT, redemption isn't the name of the game.

Don't forget, he was also largely without a mom, either, in addition to having a prick like Tywin as a father. I expect that parental environment played a role in his incestuous feelings.

 

[Totenkindly]

- Olenna Tyrell was right. They should have attacked King's Landing without listening to the men (thinking too much).

Take control first, build later. People would have hater Danny though, but time would have healed those wounds.

- Glad Jamie managed to take over Highgarden. I couldn't bear to see Euron Greyjoy take all the glory. Then again he deserved it. He fought bravely and destroyed the enemies fleet.

- I don't want the Sand Snakes (and Ellaria) to suffer, but they did deserve death for Myrcella (who was a sweetheart), Doran Martell and his son.

- Was sad to see Olenna Tyrell go like that. I though Highgarden had the best warriors? They fell so quick. Maybe Jamie and Randyll Tarly was too good?

Thanks, I already half read that some while back.

I see you and bechimo typing Jamie as a ISFX. When I was watching the first episode I thought to myself what a shitty ESTP e3 he is. I see him as a ESTP E3 who is becoming healthy thereby integrating/growing into a e6.

From an e3 description -



He is just maturing.

Just a thought.

I just see a lot more FP behavior in him than T (and man, have I known some ESTPs irl!), but I don't want to talk about it more here since we have a separate thread for that and we'll probably derail thread. If you want to discuss it in the typing thread for GoT, go for it.

Don't forget, he was also largely without a mom, either, in addition to having a prick like Tywin as a father. I expect that parental environment played a role in his incestuous feelings.

True. He had no real mother around. His sister was the most maternal figure he had, and the most sympathetic person in his family to him. I think it's another reason why he has trouble saying "no" to her. Damn, it's so crazy.

If the Lannisters existed in today's culture, they would have their own TV reality show no doubt.

Agreed. That said, even though I despise Cersei, I was on her side against Ellaria since Myrcella was innocent and a sweet child. Ellaria and her poisonous children were too ruled by their emotions and made some piss, poor choices.

I agree with that too.

Myrcella did not deserve what she got.

Oberyn was killed in combat that he chose, regardless of why or who he was fighting. So his death is on him. (And the moron won. Then got hamstrung by his own passions.) Even if Cersei was a creep, it was really Oberyn's choice. Even OBERYN would have despised what Ellaria did, he often would tout how the Dorne were not savages and that little girls could be safe there.

I really hated the Sand Snakes and I don't really like the direction the show took Ellaria. (I think she was different in the books?)

So yeah, regardless, she and her brood had it coming. It's just sad that Oberyn's lineage is now deleted, because he actually was good at heart.

 

[rav3n]

Don't forget, he was also largely without a mom, either, in addition to having a prick like Tywin as a father. I expect that parental environment played a role in his incestuous feelings.

Yup, hence why my reference to Cersei as his mommy figure too.

 

[rav3n]

I agree with that too.

Myrcella did not deserve what she got.

Oberyn was killed in combat that he chose, regardless of why or who he was fighting. So his death is on him. (And the moron won. Then got hamstrung by his own passions.) Even if Cersei was a creep, it was really Oberyn's choice. Even OBERYN would have despised what Ellaria did, he often would tout how the Dorne were not savages and that little girls could be safe there.

I really hated the Sand Snakes and I don't really like the direction the show took Ellaria. (I think she was different in the books?)

So yeah, regardless, she and her brood had it coming. It's just sad that Oberyn's lineage is now deleted, because he actually was good at heart.

Agreed. Oberyn was a good man under it all, albeit pride and vengeance got him dead in the end. Doran and Trystane were the best of the bunch and as usual on GoT, they had to die. Their deaths were another reason why Ellaria deserves what she's getting. Unfortunately, since Ellaria's being kept alive, she might be freed in the future when Dany conquers Kings Landing or possibly accidentally freed during the siege.

 

[Totenkindly]

So... Olenna. My favorite character.

here's an article with some of her better quotes in it. She had all the good lines. Diana Rigg, classy and sharp-tongued as always.
‘Game of Thrones’ Lady Olenna Tyrell: A Look Back at the Queen of Thorns’ Best Insults and Quotes

 

[Ghost]

They're really fucking with the pacing.

 

[ceecee]

So... Olenna. My favorite character.

here's an article with some of her better quotes in it. She had all the good lines. Diana Rigg, classy and sharp-tongued as always.
‘Game of Thrones’ Lady Olenna Tyrell: A Look Back at the Queen of Thorns’ Best Insults and Quotes

As soon as I saw her sitting in the room alone, I was like oooh I know someone who isn't going to like this.

 

[Totenkindly]

oopsie
Hackers Break Into HBO’s Computer Networks, May Have Leaked ‘Game of Thrones’ Script

As soon as I saw her sitting in the room alone, I was like oooh I know someone who isn't going to like this.

... well, I just ran across this a moment ago on Reddit. At least it was a defiant exit.

 

[Beorn]

Another plot speed issue: no conflict (or explanation for lack of conflict) between Davos and Tyrion at all. Just a brief reference.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I really hated the Sand Snakes and I don't really like the direction the show took Ellaria. (I think she was different in the books?)

In the books, it's more complicated because different Sand Snakes have somewhat different plans, however, briefly summarized, it's like this:

Doran's daughter Arianne (not in the show, but she's his heir here due to Dornish inheritance working differently) plots with the Sand Snakes to crown Myrcella queen in opposition to Tommen (not murder her). Doran gets wind of this and wanting to avoid a war, imprisons them. He then lets them out and reveals that he has pro-Targaryen sympathies and his own plans about getting revenge against House Lannister by allying with Danerys. Specifically, this involves having his other son Quentyn (also not in the show), travel to Mereen and win the hand of Danerys in marriage. But once Quentyn reaches Mereen, he finds the queen less receptive (can't remember if she married Hidzahr at that point already or not), and so attempts to ride one of the other two dragons to win her favor. Unfortunately, the dragons end up burning him alive and causing chaos in Mereen. (The Battle of Mereen is also shaping up to be a much more epic affair than it was in the show... something like Blackwater and the Battle of the Wall times 5.)

There's a scene with Ellaria in book five where she sets herself up in opposition to the Sand Snakes and Arianne. She's grief stricken and wants to avoid the war that her kin will surely bring.
While there still is a desire for vengenance among the Martells, it's a lot more nuanced and nearly so stupid or cold-blooded. They come off as more likeable and it's easier to see the similarities they share with Oberyn. As a side note, it's unclear if House Martell will remain pro Danerys, both due to Doran's son being burnt alive and other factors that are too complicated to explain here.

Needless to say, the book did it better. I understand why they trimmed the subplot with Quentyn, but did the have to make all the Sand Snakes and Ellaria so damn stupid and clumsy in their quest for vengeance?

The Tyrells, however, are significantly fleshed-out compared to their book counterparts. Olenna in particular gets much more screen time on TV. I wish their Dornish equivalents didn't have to suffer for it, though. Arianne is actually a POV character for a few chapters.

Anyway, the Martells were my favorite house (other than possibly the Targaryens) in the books and I'm not super happy about how they botched everyone except Oberyn. I was super excited when I heard the cast Alexander Siddig for Doran but he was mostly wasted. I'm glad that they've essentially been dispensed with so that now I can stop being annoyed by that.

 

[Totenkindly]

In the books, it's more complicated because different Sand Snakes have somewhat different plans, however, briefly summarized, it's like this:

Doran's daughter Arianne (not in the show, but she's his heir here due to Dornish inheritance working differently) plots with the Sand Snakes to crown Myrcella queen in opposition to Tommen (not murder her). Doran gets wind of this and wanting to avoid a war, imprisons them. He then lets them out and reveals that he has pro-Targaryen sympathies and his own plans about getting revenge against House Lannister by allying with Danerys. Specifically, this involves having his other son Quentyn (also not in the show), travel to Mereen and win the hand of Danerys in marriage. But once Quentyn reaches Mereen, he finds the queen less receptive (can't remember if she married Hidzahr at that point already or not), and so attempts to ride one of the other two dragons to win her favor. Unfortunately, the dragons end up burning him alive and causing chaos in Mereen. (The Battle of Mereen is also shaping up to be a much more epic affair than it was in the show... something like Blackwater and the Battle of the Wall times 5.)

There's a scene with Ellaria in book five where she sets herself up in opposition to the Sand Snakes and Arianne. She's grief stricken and wants to avoid the war that her kin will surely bring.
While there still is a desire for vengenance among the Martells, it's a lot more nuanced and nearly so stupid or cold-blooded. They come off as more likeable and it's easier to see the similarities they share with Oberyn. As a side note, it's unclear if House Martell will remain pro Danerys, both due to Doran's son being burnt alive and other factors that are too complicated to explain here.

Needless to say, the book did it better. I understand why they trimmed the subplot with Quentyn, but did the have to make all the Sand Snakes and Ellaria so damn stupid and clumsy in their quest for vengeance?

The Tyrells, however, are significantly fleshed-out compared to their book counterparts. Olenna in particular gets much more screen time on TV. I wish their Dornish equivalents didn't have to suffer for it, though. Arianne is actually a POV character for a few chapters.

Anyway, the Martells were my favorite house (other than possibly the Targaryens) in the books and I'm not super happy about how they botched everyone except Oberyn. I was super excited when I heard the cast Alexander Siddig for Doran but he was mostly wasted. I'm glad that they've essentially been dispensed with so that now I can stop being annoyed by that.

Yeah, I was aware the Dorne bit was very different, thank you for the synopsis. While I can understand why some minor characters were cut, even without knowing the story I felt like Ellaria was being misrepresented / radically changed and the Sand Snakes were just entirely one-dimensional and lacking potency. (There were also more of them, but I guess they focused just on three.) Once Oberyn was gone, the whole Dorne plotline just seemed terrible.

I really don't like the dumbing down feeling of the characters to support the plot beats they want to hit. For example, I was thinking about the resolution with Olenna and with just at least one tweak, the story could have remained truer to the characters:

I am cynical about Cersei ever agreeing to give Olenna a "merciful" death but Jaime claims he talked her down. I just don't think that would have happened, it only happened because they wanted a quick plot point accomplished -- Olenna's death.

What I could see happening:
- Cersei insists the old hag who thwarted her for so long and insulted her is punished for her rebellion against the throne, as an example to all and also so she can feel good about her victory.
- Jaime feels she is being too vindictive but can't talk her down, Cersei insists on punishing her publicly.
- Jaime captures Highgarden. After wrestling with his feelings, he decides "gently" poison Olenna anyway -- maybe claiming that she poisoned herself when it was clear they had lost the battle. Jaime's just not really an asshole, he's not into the torture bit, and he's still got that streak of nobility. What Cersei wants to do is not right; he thinks he loves Cersei, but he can't go through with that. So he'll let her die gently and if pushed claimed she had already taken her own life.
- THEN after he kindly spares Olenna a horrible death and she is dying from the poison, she reveals tadaaaa that she killed his son. She really deserved worse. Of course Jaime can't tell Cersei that.
- Ending is the same.

All they had to do was tweak a few lines of dialogue and the characters would have operated realistically, but... nope, they were just focused on cutting corners to end the Olenna subplot.

I don't think it would necessarily change the overall resolution between Jaime and Cersei either, because I think he is feeling like this whole affair has become ugly, and Cersei's desire for vengeance / her animosities gave rise to the animosity of others, and now all of his children have paid the price. it ALL just needs to stop and Cersei is hellbent on crushing anyone through any means possible. despite being a soldier, he is not a sadist and is actually rather gentle-hearted on some level.

I mean, she freaking blew up the temple and killed so many people.

EDIT:
Kind of a lot of the points I'm feeling right now, although the most obvious is the lack of time sense, with large forces just magically appearing wherever they are needed...
5 Ways 'Game Of Thrones' Has Changed For The Worse

 

[Totenkindly]

Okay, and back to Tyrion's origin briefly:

Is the general thought now that

- Tywin wasn't actually Tyrion's blood father -- that Joanna Lannister was either having an affair or was raped by a Targaryan?

- Tywin takes ownership of Tyrion as his own child because to not do so would bring shame on the Lannister name and/or on Joanna's memory. Tywin loved Joanna.

- However, Tywin basically vacillates between doing the "civil" thing by Tryion while also hating and abusing him in various ways over the years. It would explain the cold fury he often showed around Tyrion. And also why he fine with executing him once he had a chance to do so.

- It would also explain Cersei's instinctive hatred... because Tyrion stole her mother from her AND essentially she somehow has recognized he's not really a Lannister and she's tribal as hell.

- Of course, Jaime being more kind-hearted and accepting would bond with his brother regardless and is probably pretty unaware of any of this.

- This would explain in the show why Tywin at the very end claimed Tyrion was not his son ("you are no son of mine"), but Tyrion shot him before anything else could be revealed.

Anyway, if Tyrion has Targaryan blood as well...

 

[Beorn]

Okay, and back to Tyrion's origin briefly:

Is the general thought now that

- Tywin wasn't actually Tyrion's blood father -- that Joanna Lannister was either having an affair or was raped by a Targaryan?

- Tywin takes ownership of Tyrion as his own child because to not do so would bring shame on the Lannister name and/or on Joanna's memory. Tywin loved Joanna.

- However, Tywin basically vacillates between doing the "civil" thing by Tryion while also hating and abusing him in various ways over the years. It would explain the cold fury he often showed around Tyrion. And also why he fine with executing him once he had a chance to do so.

- It would also explain Cersei's instinctive hatred... because Tyrion stole her mother from her AND essentially she somehow has recognized he's not really a Lannister and she's tribal as hell.

- Of course, Jaime being more kind-hearted and accepting would bond with his brother regardless and is probably pretty unaware of any of this.

- This would explain in the show why Tywin at the very end claimed Tyrion was not his son ("you are no son of mine"), but Tyrion shot him before anything else could be revealed.

Anyway, if Tyrion has Targaryan blood as well...

My biggest disappointment with the show differing from the books is how they handled Tyrion's hatred for Tywin.

In the books Tyrion hates his father because he took his first wife from him and had her raped by his soldiers and then forces Tyrion to rape her after them. Tyrion is told by Jaime that she was actually a whore who didn't really love him. When Jaime frees Tyrion he confesses to Tyrion that Tywin made him lie to him and that his wife was not a whore, but someone who genuinely fell in love with Tyrion. Of course we know what Tyrion does upon hearing that and the reaction and the sense of justice is much greater in the books.

 

[Qre:us]

RIP Queen of The Roses (and Thorns). I shall miss Oleanna, and loved her exchange with Jaime. She went out as she should have. With honour.

She was a mirror to Jaime in that last conversation about Cersei and his relationship, even if he shut that down real quick, as he is too down the rabbit hole to really fathom the alternative choice as an option.

I appreciated how her death also moved along other plot points.
- Cersei & Dany's war for power. Daang, ladies!
- Jaime & Tyrion's war games now going head-to-head with Jaime (and Cersei) now knowing that although Tyrion killed their father, he did not kill their son. As vile as Joffrey was.

I guess I don't mind the willful change of pace. In the beginning it viewed like a sprawling epic journey, with characters literally journeying on and on....

And as all journeys must come to an end, so too must this. It went from a tv show episodic pace to what feels movie-like pacing of SLs. Yes, nuances and subtlety of character development, and fleshing out of motivations, are sacrificed, but I rather it not meander on any longer.

We expected a clash of fire and ice, in epic ways, from the beginning. Regardless of what we now anticipate about the show, from the beginning we knew it would be an epic battle. And it is leading up to that. The drumbeats have gotten faster. Feels a bit chaotic. I like it. In terms of the anticipation of the end.

*shrugs* I guess I feel like I know the characters enough to now be viewing them from 3rd person perspective, when for so long, we were stuck in 1st person perspective. I wanna see them now as literal chess pieces on the board/board game (the opening credits, so to speak)....finally coming together.

The forest for the trees.

Speaking of, Bran's encounter with Sansa rang true for who he is. He basically got rushed into taking in all of existence (past, present, future), in a condensed pressure-cooker situation. I don't think he has sorted out (figured out the power over), all that he has. Knowledge is not power unless wielded effectively. He's like a foal learning its legs.

I think he's basically over-stimulated and is zoned out, trying to figure it out. I also think that having a personal identity, like 'the brother of...' (Sansa, Arya, Jon, etc) is now obsolete for him. Or at least...the journey as we have seen in the show, of Bran, it makes sense that such identity, almost like Arya and her assassin ways, the Stark identity is lost to him, due to the overwhelming re-shifting of his identity, given his story arc and what he went through to have this vast power entrusted upon him.

To basically hold the memory of all of existence, including its darkness, mankind's deepest pain and tragedies. There's only one way to carry all that: detached. Because if you attach, let yourself *FEEL*, you will implode.

Information overload is an understatement. Bran is not Bran but the 3-Eyed Raven, and I'm guessing in that detached version remained the remnants of the old Bran, who, faced with Sansa, likely recalled their bond as brother and sister, and like an empath, probably had a rush of memory of her/what she holds most visceral - her most horrible pain and ordeal. Her rape on her wedding night. The little girl who dreamt of a Lancelot knight.

Granted the delivery was for shits, but I don't think Bran knows how to process this as Bran. It's the 3-Eyed-Raven who USED to be Bran.

AnyYay, Family reunion! Can't wait for Arya's arrival! Her meeting with Nymeria was also like I imagined. Am glad Nymeria turned away from her. Arya is not Nymeria's Arya any more.
And when she becomes, so too shall Nymeria answer her call.

She is getting there...which is the only reason she even ran into Nyermia, in the first place.

That whole sequence reminded me of Frost's poem, '...two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less travelled by, and that has made all the difference....' heh.

More thoughts on Bran...

I can't recall if he has consciously realized that he, like the HE as we're presently viewing in the SL, can and does change the course of wherever he lands himself/his vision self. E.g., Young Ned heard his voice. Hodor.

Which likely means that he's not only unidirectional, but bidirectional, so just like the Night's King now has access to Bran and his world beyond the wall, so too does Bran have access to Night's King and his world, and being able to impact that! Just a hunch. If so, will be interesting to see how Bran uses this to save that world/the SL.