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  1. #21
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I'm not sure if it's wise to follow the MMO trend though. I don't think D&D can beat MMO's at their own game. But there are plenty of things that D&D can do that MMO's can't. D&D ultimately only has one limitation and that is the DM's imagination, which is something MMO's will never be able to beat.
    I agree. Every one of my memorable sessions happened by accident; where improvisation was aloft on the suspension of disbelief and every member of the group productively responded to one another. It's one of the reasons why Second Edition is where I return to for centering and inspiration. The simple, earnest and anecdotal guidance in narratives -- roleplayers talking to roleplayers -- can't be found anywhere else.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I'm not sure if it's wise to follow the MMO trend though. I don't think D&D can beat MMO's at their own game. But there are plenty of things that D&D can do that MMO's can't. D&D ultimately only has one limitation and that is the DM's imagination, which is something MMO's will never be able to beat.
    I've only done computer RPGs (no tabletops), but this does seem true from reading about D&D. There doesn't seem much point in doing a tabletop MMO type game when you can do one on a computer with pretty graphics and microchips to do all the combat calculations. (Maybe there's a social part to it.)

  3. #23
    Senior Member Hexis's Avatar
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    Me and a few friends have been playing since it came out, and so far are reallying enjoying it. Me and the DM have played since 3rd edition and are haveing to teach everyone else the fundamentals of D&D.

    The only problem thus far is that we havent established a core group, im the only one who has shown up to every session. Everyone else is always busy or working, so theres about 7 guys (not incudeing me) that keep switching off every weekend or so. And this of course causes problems with roleplaying which is what the games all about. Especially cause we cant even really get into very hardcore role playing till all the new guys are comfortable in the rules and understand how to play.

    But it is drastically different from 3rd, and 3.5. They only thing that is really the same is that classes are still called classes and races are still called races. It is extremley fun though, but it is still going to have to grow on me. At the moment I still prefer 3.5. But there are several things about it that after experienceing will never make 3.5 the same again. For one the infinite spells a wizard can cast now, before they where just way too under powered.

    And yes there has already been official word that barbarian, sorceror, and either druid or monk (if not both) will be comeing out in later books, most likely a PHB2.

    And to fill you in on the whole spell thing, wizards do still have spells and they are still in the back but they are now called "Rituals". A wizards normal "Spells" are his powers. Which are the same as a paladins "Prayers" and a rouges "Exploits".

    And in the current campaign im playing a Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut. So far im really enjoying it but havent had much chance to role play him yet or really get into his character. Hopefully ill be able to soon, but as for battle he rocks.
    SDMF

  4. #24
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    It's brave of you, Sexist. I always eschewed paladins, finding their powers far too disruptive to normal dramatic gameplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    There doesn't seem much point in doing a tabletop MMO type game when you can do one on a computer with pretty graphics and microchips to do all the combat calculations. (Maybe there's a social part to it.)
    That's why, while I enjoy the mathematical interplay of rules, quickly found most dice rolls to be impracticable -- and therefore impractical with a fast-moving, highly social group.

  5. #25
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    No more lawful evil, no more counterspelling...

    I don't approve.

    They seem to be interested in making a strategy game out of D&D.
    wails from the crypt.

  6. #26
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    No more lawful evil, no more counterspelling...

    I don't approve.

    They seem to be interested in making a strategy game out of D&D.
    D&D has always been a tactical game. It's a weird amalgam of Gary Gygax, who is at heart a strategy gamer, and Dave Arneson, who at heart is a roleplayer. This weird amalgam is kinda what made it work. Some groups are roleplay heavy, some are tactics heavy, and most are somewhere in between. It's this amalgamation that makes it appeal to a wider variety of people than other types of roleplaying or strategy games.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  7. #27
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    What class are you playing Geoff, and how does that class feel compared to earlier editions?
    Ranger, twin wielding scimitars, but also ranged with magic daggers. It feels quite different to the same class in earlier conditions. I like it though.. I still have stealth, nature and survival skills. How "rangery" I am is up to my imagination and role playing. As a martial class it's a lot of fun. I'm kinda a glass cannon. Fragile but destructive - especially to "minions" (a GREAT addition for me to the game)

    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    Judging by substantive Amazon reviews, the new edition draws sharp opinions from rules-oriented groups. Those who approve either reject that Wizards of the Coast seeks to appeal to the MMO demographic; or were already practicing grid-based combat.

    My groups, loosely based on Second Edition rules, were animated by roleplaying; and, in the stages of preparing for the first group in nearly ten years, I'm fine-tuning a highly simplified and amalgamated system, so remain pretty ambivalent. Though I agree that such a radical alteration, however strong, probably shouldn't be called Dungeons & Dragons, Wizards of the Coast have certainly established system credibility with Magic: The Gathering.
    See, I find it odd when people imply or just say that the new edition isn't role playing. You have skills, you dice rolls (if you want to use them) to do a non combat challenge like intimidate, bluff, religion or arcana knowledge. It's up to the players and the dm to decide how role play heavy it is. It's totally up to the imagination. I'm having a lot of fun because my low int ranger sold a very important item (it contained "my luck") just for a handful of magic daggers.. I was roleplaying my low intelligence.... and since then random things keep going wrong. It's not in the rule book, why would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Yeah one think I was thinking as I was flipping through the books is that 4th ed. resembles an MMO more than earlier editions. On the one hand this seems like it makes D&D even less realistic than before. On the other hand D&D was never terribly realistic even for a game that takes place in a fantasy world. Even in 1st edition a high level fighter could jump off of a mountain top, take about 70 points of damage, and then rush into battle.

    I'm not sure if it's wise to follow the MMO trend though. I don't think D&D can beat MMO's at their own game. But there are plenty of things that D&D can do that MMO's can't. D&D ultimately only has one limitation and that is the DM's imagination, which is something MMO's will never be able to beat.
    It isn't turning into a MMO. It's a role playing game with fun, more streamlined combat. The encounter and daily powers are a lot of fun. All they really are a chance, once per combat, to use a powerful attack, or a spell (like fireball). Some things once a day (really super attack, big spell) others every time there is a short rest. After about 15 hours of play, I'm loving the new combat style. It's more strategic and the combat powers mean that every class has flavour and fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    I've only done computer RPGs (no tabletops), but this does seem true from reading about D&D. There doesn't seem much point in doing a tabletop MMO type game when you can do one on a computer with pretty graphics and microchips to do all the combat calculations. (Maybe there's a social part to it.)
    Absolutely there is! 5 or 6 friends, rolling the dice, drinking beers. Trust me, the look of horror when you roll a critical failure 1 when you really don't need it will never be matched by a computer doing everything. And, of course, the graphics never match your own head.

    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    It's brave of you, Sexist. I always eschewed paladins, finding their powers far too disruptive to normal dramatic gameplay.

    That's why, while I enjoy the mathematical interplay of rules, quickly found most dice rolls to be impracticable -- and therefore impractical with a fast-moving, highly social group.
    I like the die-rolling.. in moderation. It's up to the group though, how often they use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    No more lawful evil, no more counterspelling...

    I don't approve.

    They seem to be interested in making a strategy game out of D&D.
    I expect counterspelling is coming. The alignments are more streamlined, but.. again.. it's up to you how you play your character. It's called role playing for a reason

    I approve of the strategy.. it's much better than the "broken builds" problem of 3rd Edition. This time you need to work as a team, and use strengths and not just design a build that always does the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    D&D has always been a tactical game. It's a weird amalgam of Gary Gygax, who is at heart a strategy gamer, and Dave Arneson, who at heart is a roleplayer. This weird amalgam is kinda what made it work. Some groups are roleplay heavy, some are tactics heavy, and most are somewhere in between. It's this amalgamation that makes it appeal to a wider variety of people than other types of roleplaying or strategy games.
    Right! Bottom line is, I'm having a lot of fun

  8. #28
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    See, I find it odd when people imply or just say that the new edition isn't role playing. You have skills, you dice rolls (if you want to use them) to do a non combat challenge like intimidate, bluff, religion or arcana knowledge. It's up to the players and the dm to decide how role play heavy it is. It's totally up to the imagination. I'm having a lot of fun because my low int ranger sold a very important item (it contained "my luck") just for a handful of magic daggers.. I was roleplaying my low intelligence.... and since then random things keep going wrong. It's not in the rule book, why would it be?
    Fair enough. As I said, I'm ambivalent; I suppose I do find the debate over the franchise's identity worth scoring. But you're right in that groups both established and considerate will take what they want and make up the rest.

    I like the die-rolling.. in moderation. It's up to the group though, how often they use them.
    Players who disliked the random, remote agencies of dice went a little too far for me, as the game could drift from there into nothing more than make-believe. On another forum, there's a girl who runs with her husband; their group loves 4th Edition, and from all indications the players are so familiar with the game that dice-rolling probably moves fairly swiftly. Strikes me as rare, though I understand completely why the new rules would be welcome additions.

  9. #29
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    Yeah stick to 2nd ed. if you aren't too stupid to figure out THAC0

  10. #30
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Yeah stick to 2nd ed. if you aren't too stupid to figure out THAC0
    Heh. Very compelling argument. Do you have any reasons other than the complexity of THACO?

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