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  1. #11
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Jack is getting pretty frayed and starting to act erratically, but I can't blame him either. Locke has acted like a nut job pretty much the whole time. Highly unpredictable and often dangerous.

    What bothers me about both of the knuckleheads is that they can't ever discuss anything or compromise, let alone lay out all the information they have and let people make up their own dang minds. Is it really that hard?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I actually sympathized with Jack when he pulled the trigger. From his perspective, Locke has actively sabotaged his chances to leave the island multiple times now. I think I'd have a little hostility too.
    Ivy IS a J! She IS! She IS!!!!




    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    What bothers me about both of the knuckleheads is that they can't ever discuss anything or compromise, let alone lay out all the information they have and let people make up their own dang minds. Is it really that hard?
    That is sort of funny... that two grown men just can't seem to get on the same page, if they would just communicate a little more clearly. (I mean, really: Just actually put all your cards on the table!) Then again, I can see why their personalities just conflict so much and why they see things so differently.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Ivy IS a J! She IS! She IS!!!!

    I don't see the connection.
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  4. #14
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't see the connection.
    Neither do I.

    I'd go with Jack. Moving forward seems like a better plan to me given their situation. Nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that good stuff.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    J = wants to accomplish, reach closure, have a plan and enact it. Movement, not stagnation. Jack is very J. He knows what he wants, he gets mad when he cannot make it happen, and he takes definitive action. It's hard for him to live without closure.

    P = Find the right answer, willing to not take definitive action if not enough information is clear, wants to explore and be sure of what is being done before doing it. Locke has taken some definitive steps, but only when he was either led to by revelation (something outside himself), and only what seemed to make sense by signals from his environment. He is not imposing his own personal ends on others or what is going on, he is constantly evaluating and reevaluating and changing what he's doing, and NOT locking himself into a particular end. Locke hates closure.

    (Another case in point: Jack hated his father unfairly, drawing conclusion after conclusion about him too early, and missing most of who his father was... "He's evil/awful." Locke gave his father far too much leeway, constantly putting off making a decision about him, giving him chance after chance even when it should have been obvious that a valid conclusion could be drawn. "He's done lots of bad things, but he's good too and I just can't commit yet.")

    It would be interesting to see how many self-professed J's side with Jack, and how many P's see more value in Locke's approach.

    How many people stayed with Jack and Kate? I couldn't tell, at the end.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    J = wants to accomplish, reach closure, have a plan and enact it. Movement, not stagnation. Jack is very J. He knows what he wants, he gets mad when he cannot make it happen, and he takes definitive action. It's hard for him to live without closure.

    P = Find the right answer, willing to not take definitive action if not enough information is clear, wants to explore and be sure of what is being done before doing it. Locke has taken some definitive steps, but only when he was either led to by revelation (something outside himself), and only what seemed to make sense by signals from his environment. He is not imposing his own personal ends on others or what is going on, he is constantly evaluating and reevaluating and changing what he's doing, and NOT locking himself into a particular end. Locke hates closure.

    (Another case in point: Jack hated his father unfairly, drawing conclusion after conclusion about him too early, and missing most of who his father was... "He's evil/awful." Locke gave his father far too much leeway, constantly putting off making a decision about him, giving him chance after chance even when it should have been obvious that a valid conclusion could be drawn. "He's done lots of bad things, but he's good too and I just can't commit yet.")

    It would be interesting to see how many self-professed J's side with Jack, and how many P's see more value in Locke's approach.

    How many people stayed with Jack and Kate? I couldn't tell, at the end.
    It's not that I "side" with Jack. I kind of think he's a humorless ass most of the time, actually, but I like him when he turns on the deadpan humor. I don't "side" with Locke either- in fact I don't really like either of them. I prefer Sawyer. But in terms of the gun incident, holy hell, they've been stuck on an island for, what, three months? I don't think it's necessarily a J thing to want to get off the island, or to be angry with someone who is actively sabotaging that effort. First he blows up the submarine, then he kills (kills! the thing you're upset with Jack for trying to do to Locke!) Naomi to keep her from contacting the boat which they think can rescue them.

    I also wonder why it was so easy for Locke to toss a dagger into Naomi's back when he had to get Sawyer to do his dirty work for him re: his dad.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I also wonder why it was so easy for Locke to toss a dagger into Naomi's back when he had to get Sawyer to do his dirty work for him re: his dad.
    Cause she was going to let them leave the island. Locke will kill to prevent that. Up till then, all he had to do was blow up a submarine.

  8. #18
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Cause she was going to let them leave the island. Locke will kill to prevent that. Up till then, all he had to do was blow up a submarine.
    Why wasn't his father enough of a threat to him to kill him as easily as he killed Naomi, though? He couldn't really get off the island but he sure as shit had ruined everything for Locke at every opportunity before.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Why wasn't his father enough of a threat to him to kill him as easily as he killed Naomi, though? He couldn't really get off the island but he sure as shit had ruined everything for Locke at every opportunity before.
    Yeah, but that's more like revenge - not taking away the life he's built on the island. He's very threatened by that.

  10. #20
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Cause she was going to let them leave the island. Locke will kill to prevent that. Up till then, all he had to do was blow up a submarine.
    I see Jack's animosity as personal and directed; Locke seems to be more goal-oriented that way.

    Locke could have killed Jack numerous times (he has certainly been his greatest opponent) but considered it wrong. Naomi was an outsider with malevolent intent (to John). Jack seems to personalize things.

    I think a sign to me of Jack's obsession is simply that, after the problems with Ben, being captured by the Others, etc., he suddenly trusts Naomi... just because she offers the possibility of rescue. But if he was being balanced, he would have not trusted her either.

    Locke didn't kill his father... because he was his father.
    He wanted his father to love him. It was probably the largest wound in his life. If Sawyer had not killed his father, I am betting John couldn't have done it. Too much closure; too personal.

    What is really interesting between the two: Locke seems willing to kill for impersonal reasons, not personal ones, while Jack seems willing to kill for personal reasons, not impersonal ones.

    Jack hates specific people. Locke doesn't really "hate" people the way Jack does.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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