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  1. #111
    heart on fire
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    So DD, what do you think of Darcy's obsession with Lizzie's social status? Is this a product of Te or does it possibly show Fe? I am very interested in your perspective. I realize it you might not be able to answer right away, but hope that you will eventually give some of your insight on the issue.

  2. #112
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    Default INTJ Darcy Pt.1

    Long post alert!...again! It's all on INTJ Darcy, babes. This is but Pt.1 of 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    So DD, what do you think of Darcy's obsession with Lizzie's social status? Is this a product of Te or does it possibly show Fe? I am very interested in your perspective. I realize it you might not be able to answer right away, but hope that you will eventually give some of your insight on the issue.
    ~ I'm going to take Darcy being an INTJ further as I hadn't yet fleshed him out yet. So, to respond to your question first, I didn't think of it as an obsession so much as him wanting to know his "role" in relation to her "role" in (logical/rational) life thus becoming anxious about. Anxious b/c he couldn't yet see any good point in liking her w/o causing 'social awkward/chaos' in the channels around him (One is his Aunt). INTJs (INFJs) dislike mucking up the social surroundings unless they are going in for the kill (cause lol), rightly or wrongly. INTJs want to maintain a sense of harmony and maintain distance from those who will disrupt it or have potential to disrupt it. As in, just troublesome people which annoy them. They have no problem criticising in a rationally minded way via Te in order to "organise" the mistaken "thoughts" of others. He did this with Bingley but I shall expound on that after.

    What comes from his awareness for the social sphere he resides in is that he understands the "logical" outcome , having already forseen it, which in his time, was irregardless of one's feelings for the persons at hand. Rank is rank. Not everyone married for love and if so they were of lower classes mostly. It would come, from my view and understanding, from Te rationalising it all as such and not allowing feelings to distort that clear understanding of logic. He obviously overcame the cold "logic" going against his personal feelings/desire but when he did try to reach out to Lizzy, he didn't portray himself as well as he could have.

    From the beginning it appeared as though Darcy was too overbearing with pride when it was explained he has social awkwardness with new people or people he isn't yet familiar with. He was misperceived Proud as such by those who didn't know him and had info slandered in Wickham's favour. Why didn't he defend himself to other's about Wickham? Or even tell Lizzy when he bagan liking her? An INTJ will likely not care to prove their worth to those outside their circle. What's the point? If you can't tell how intelligent and sincere I am, then it's your loss as it doesn't effect me. You'll see the Change of Heart ( not you ) when I get to it below. The only time the 'effect' of detachment from Lizzy began changing is when he began having an attraction for her but couldn't repress it and could not logically dislodge himself even though he knew of the ramifications of such a Match. Being "obligated" into a marriage by your powerful Aunt is not so easy to deal with, he had to overcome that "disrupt" too. He had to figure out a way first in observing Lizzy and then relating to Lizzy and then Going Against The World together. If there was no winning Lizzy, what would be the point in bothering? But I've gotten ahead of myself here

    If we looked at how Darcy 'mocked'/teased Lizzy as well, he then later realised she was very different with her opinions than the drivel he normally was surrounded with, he would seem to have enjoyed it (can't recall if he says so or if Austen narrating says so?). He became thrilled when she responded in kind to his "being in her presence and 'picking her brain for info to help him'". Although, he didn't realise/forsee his being near her or asking her/teasing her as actually upseting her "What did I do?" it made him look worse in her eyes. He admitted, I think err, to not having people respond so 'differently' against him which was, I'd guess, endearing to see such "fresh" behaviour. Female Behaviour which wasn't so silly in nature as some females he knew were silly/superficial/unkind..but b/c they were a part of his social structure, related or through friends, he wouldn't just 'deflect' them so openly. She challenged him which was new, in so doing he open-uped into seeing her perspective on some things (the "Accomplished Ladies" talk) With a female like Caroline Bingley, he largely ignored her until she pushed him to respond and just deflected her inane questions pr obvious display of "her affection for him/his sister" to show how silly she was in subtle mockery so as not to appear an ass (smart guy, eh?). Very INTJish to be so sly if necessary in not causing outwardly probs. He knew how his social circle worked, was very aware of it. It wasn't because he cared being oh so high but because his actions were dependent on those around him (sister/friends/families). He did take pride that he was well off because he could lavish it on the people around him, such as tenants, servants, sister and friends--then when she came, the love of his life, Lizzy. INTJs who care for family and friends are fierce protectors. They will not let you so much as harm them if they suspect it so (like INFJ paranoia lol). When Georgiana confided in him that she was going to elope, he IMMEDIATELY went to rescue her and make sure her 'honour' was protected. He realised his error in sending her away from his sight b/c he thought he couldn't relate to her being a female and a younger age. He ensured she would be in better care then onwards. He ensured Wickham was happy with more of the money he wanted in return for never coming near them again. That was Darcy 'deflecting' the guy out of his life and, more importantly, his vulnerable sister's life.

    When Darcy was accidently shellshocked from seeing Wickham and with Lizzy to boot, he fled. I don't even think it was due to "feeling uncomfortable" so much as PISSSSSSED and wishing he could maim the guy but "social ettiquette" which he was raised well on wouldn't allow him to be so base. His father, we learned from a servant and himself, was a great mentor and was fair. He probably lamented that he couldn't foresee something happening to his sister thus he still kept the anger fresh in his heart but not openly displayed to others. Even when being slandered, he didn't want to harm his sister's reputation (Te awareness of the 'rules' they lived by) by divulging what Wickham had done. He knew Wickham was bad but he didn't think he was any worse than he'd seen him. I'd also think he wouldn't want to so much as think/feel about Wickham ever again.

    INTJs may not be as aware of the feelings of those around them, unless the people are known well, and even then Fi is their 3rd CP so it's not as trusted. Depending on its development, it can be childish (not bothering to know, just reacting) or childlike (not sure how to approach but curious all the same). He realised the error of witholding his feelings/exp. with Wickham from Lizzy and other's because that 'wanting to maintain social order' for family/self would have become exposed at the cost of other's. Other's aren't as important as self/family/friends. He corrected that when he found out all "new" things that Wickham had done in relation to Lizzy and to other's which could have been prevented had he told all.

    -cont'd Pt.2

  3. #113
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    Default Pt.2 Final on INTJ Darcy

    -cont'd from Pt.1

    As for Darcy's approach in "mis/handling" Lizzy? He kept his observations to himself and observed her to get to know her better. He'd ask her little questions, to which she'd wonder "Why is he asking me if I like this?", because that was his way of sucking Te info for Ni to 'figure' and 'focus' on a way of understanding her better. He didn't give her input so she didn't realise (if she is INFJ, subtlety sucks for them unless matured). He kept his passions beneath the surface, not so much as batting an eye. Lizzy would rationalize his 'eyeing' her as trying to unnerve him "Won't work, I'm on to you!".

    Another big error of judgement, as I touched on with (uncertain) INFP Jane, is his INTJ easy misconstruction of her 'affections' for his close friend. He couldn't gauge her "feelings" as well as Lizzy's (Fe-ing and speaking her mind). He largely (Te) gathered analysis off her family's behaviours believing that logical input (for Ni) and enough at that (Ni concludes). Worrying that such a greedy mother, an inept father who sometimes seemed greedy too, two RIDICULOUSLY foolish younger sisters who cavorted all over the place causing 'noise' and a dulled-thing who probably escaped his eye if not his bad hearing

    As he was the one who insisted that Jane was not as affectionate for his friend as the main reason, along with the aforementioned, for his 'deflecting' his friend away from her so his friend could "gain perspective", he completely disregarded that knowledge from effecting his chance with Lizzy. Lizzy was somewhat changing her mind of him as he kept "coming near her" but when she found out that it was HE who ruined her sister's happiness, oiiiiii! She was just 'preparing all the things inside' that she wanted to blast at him if/when given the chance.

    The Blow Up Proposal was the clashing of ignorance battling to prove the other ignorant. Darcy, overwhelmed by Fi now, will not deny her and he has lost perspective of his "cautious observing". Ni has taken over in wanting to FULFILL this vision. He completely forgot all the info of Wickham: having earlier realised that Wickham had probably brainwashed Lizzy into making him appear criminal and he had ALREADY forgiven her for that (Why not tell her then? Oooooops!). He had on his OWN forged through into overcoming the perceived deficiencies of "her birth" (he didn't care so much as it was society that did and he had to fight society, not just her resistance! ). He'd been closeting all this "love" for her, not having expressed it well (Fi is weak, remember!) and vomitted out when he couldn't stand it or wait any longer. Citing that to the woman you "love" that "despite your Inferior birth, your lack of connections, your foully behaved and ever displaying family, though you and your elder sis are A.O.K, I still found some crazy way of falling for you..What say you, my true love?"

    All That Garbage = WTF?! to Lizzy (Fi :steam What did she see of him showing affection (No Fe, nope)? Other than her bias towards their initial meeting and thereafer, being brainwashed/bombarded (Fe) by Wickham and being stubborn on taking other's input that Darcy may be a decent guy....well NO, she'd have needed to be smacked in the face by Mary's piano to 'feeeeel' his quietly residing love for her. Insulting/tearing at her "social birth" and "family's behaviours/appearances" all in ONE GO? WHOA! If she IS an INFJ, then I'd say "Nonononono, Why'd you say that to her?!" She was OVERLY AWARE that her family probably ruined Jane's happiness and were making fools of themselves as she kept TRYING to correct them "Father, you MUST STOP Lydia from leaving before she ruins us all!" as she predicted their downfall. Or during the balls or whenever she'd reproach and vent to Jane about their behaviours. But the worst of it all was that she was VERY MUCH AWARE that he RUINED her most beloved sister's happiness. He even "ruined the chances for success" to a good friend, Wickham! Lastly, INFJ Lizzy in stress, who likely knows how to effect people, will go in for the KILL against what she's feels Darcy holds sacred/value--His pride and now Her. "After we just met, I had already determined/foresaw that you were the LAST MAN on Earth I'd EVER DEIGN to MARRY!" <---"Take that, sucka! Who's a bitch, now?!"

    Darcy, shellshocked, doesn't know how to react, can barely ask if that's all (can't sputter any more words) and flees. He then "recollected" himself and the connections as to why she'd react that way when he so "ardently loves her". He had NEVER SHOWN IT expressely, no matter how expressive it was in his little world. He FORGOT how to inform her that he'd forgiven her error of judgement on Wickham b/c he realised SHE didn't know, whereas he knew all along (but didn't TELL HER/anyone). He wrote in detailed length all of the issues as he likely "conceived a new way" in approaching her. One that wouldn't be interrupted by noise or Fe-ing from Lizzy. His Change of Heart complete, he discloses the intensely personal in his life b/c he realised again how his remaining arrogantly quiet b/c HE knew it all (INTJs, bad! ) and thought there was no need in telling her as such info didn't initially pertain to her. He explained the lack of understanding on Jane's part, somewhat rescinding it though still claiming it was all done to help his friend.

    I found it wise that he didn't profess it at all his love for her in the letter, if I remember correctly. He needed to now do what he had forgotten...SHOW it first, then proclaim it. So, he envisioned a new scenario of not only taking it slow but learned to "open" up a bit and show he was more vulnerable than he let on. Seeing her at his estate was sheer fluke but it gave him a chance to show off his sister. He likely divulged his feelings to his sister way before the proposal (as Georgiana said "I've heard so much about you" and I doubt he'd have dumped it all at once on her). Witnessing the sincerity from his sister, whom he knew would garner a better depiction of him in Lizzy's eyes (he hoped), might just get her to see around his faults. Fixing Lydia's problem but NOT wanting her to know about it really showed how not only honourable he could be but modest too. If that twit didn't let it slip that that insufferable Mr. Darcy was there at her wedding, Lizzy couldn't have pieced yet another thing to her Ni-web log which was somewhat reorganising itself in Darcy's favour against her will....

    Her trusted Aunt telling everything, how he worked so hard to find and take care of it all, really made Lizzy lament ever judging him so wrongfully in the first place. He felt it was his fault for not enlightening people on such a character that was Wickham. Paying debt, shush-money and he probably arranged it that Wickham be shipped up North, farrrrrrr away (I suspect he would've if it wasn't a "friend" of Wickham's...if it was mentioned in the book, I've forgotten lol)

    Darcy was prepared to leave Lizzy alone, fearing that she'd blame him for her stupid sister running away as if he'd just told her, "it wouldn't have happened" (yea right...Lydia would've done it, methinks...). Lizzy upsetting his Aunt so far gave hope and he tried again...they both rescinded their biases and lived Happily INTJ and INFJ Ever After but with probable potential for lotsssss of Hate-Make Up Sex

    I view Darcy almost like my INTJ sis. INTJs can be so huggable as well as standoffish if hugged too much but... I shall all INTJs forever!!!

  4. #114
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    Default Jane Austen Essay Contest

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Thanks. I just finished reading a lengthy article in praise of Charlotte Lucas with which I heartily agreed.
    Here's another interesting link:

    The Jane Austen Society of North America - Essay Contest Winners 2006

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  5. #115
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    We watched Persuasion on TIVO last night. I don't think they could make a modern day remake of that like they did with Clueless/Emma. I just don't think it's possible for someone to be that chronically repressed. Most modern women wouldn't passively stand around in silence for days, weeks and months and watch the object of their affection slip away. Which is what would happen nowadays b'cause the girl couldn't find the cojones to "Speak UP!" Live out loud girl! And don't wait until the final act. I think this story is so old-fashioned because it appears that passivity is rewarded. I don't think the theme is timeless or universal.

    That said, the guy from MI-5/Spooks was HOTT.

    But I still wanted to shake that girl, maybe even slap her, and yell "Snap out of it!"

    It reminded me of those Ang Lee movies (Remains of the Day/Brokeback Mountain) about the long-silent and stifled lovers who can't see far enough beyond their restrictive social roles to Seize the Day! and express their True Feelings! And neither of those take place in modern times either.

    It's actually quite frustrating to watch. Still, that hottie from MI-5 made it worth it.

  6. #116
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    Bridget Jones is a modern remake of Pride and Prejudice. The Mr. Darcy does a fine and sexy job of being totally repressed in it.

    I still think a modern but immature IxFP in their late teens/very early 20s as Jane was could easily be shy, withdrawn and unable to express out the deep feelings of their heart.

  7. #117
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Tonight, the final installment of Pride and Prejudice, 9 PM on PBS.

  8. #118
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    Tonight is Emma with Kate Beckinsale.

    Jae Rae
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  9. #119
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jae Rae View Post
    Tonight is Emma with Kate Beckinsale.

    Jae Rae
    Thanks! I just checked the tv guide a little bit ago.

    I'm planning to video tape it. I sure wish I knew how to record onto a disk.

  10. #120
    Senior Member Apollonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Thanks! I just checked the tv guide a little bit ago.

    I'm planning to video tape it. I sure wish I knew how to record onto a disk.
    Ah, Video Tape... I remember video tape. I was one of those kids who actually knew how to program a VCR. Nowadays I just pay an extra ten bucks a month for Digital Video Recording service on my cable box. It has seriously revolutionized my television watching (for better or worse). If you have a Windows Media edition PC with a cable input, its pretty easy too.

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