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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jae Rae View Post
    Of possible interest to the Austenphiles:

    Jane Austen Society - Northern California Region

    Jae Rae
    Thanks. I just finished reading a lengthy article in praise of Charlotte Lucas with which I heartily agreed.

  2. #102
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    Default P.1.Ah, Long Post! Flee!

    I'm taking my spin on P & P as per heart's instruction. I've yet to read the rest of the posts so I shall in a while This is Pt.1 (yea, long drivel abounds!)

    I shall speak of these peope only:
    Lizzy = INFJ
    Jane = INFP
    Mr. Darcy = INTJ (though I mention him briefly)

    I think it was in a "What Type is Lizzy and Darcy?" thread that got me interested. I couldn't comment as I hadn't registered yet and when I did I think the thread died. heart assured me you guys are running strong, so here I jump in with my spinning visions!

    I vaguelly recall the thread comments (initially) in believing P & P's Lizzy as being remarked probably an ENFJ and Mr. Darcy as INTJ but I found Lizzy to look like a typical INFJ who's too biased, exterts their feelings wrongly onto others (Mr. Darcy, Charolette, Wickham, Jane) and sympathizes (not empathizes) too easily as Lizzy did with Mr. Wickham. Wickham quickly hashed out stories and so easily upon meeting her that she just JUMPED (Ni can't process when Fe is overwhelmed!) to feel sorry and she held bias (Fi) for Mr. Darcy for slighting her. Never mind her (Fe-ing) her bias onto misunderstanding him and the intentions/feelings of other's.

    So, Mr. Wickham looked "Oh, so perfectly right and sincere, why would he lie?! He's the victim!" until she started listening to other's POVs, including her much wiser (albiet, I feel, too naive) INFP sister Jane. When she was able to stop her "Fe" from reacting so fast to Wickham's "Fe" or that of another's, her Ni was able to breathe and think again of the possibilities of differing events ("What really/might've happened?") that she'd lived up to that whole year. She needed the input of other's because INFJ's Last Demonically evil Cognitive Process is Introverted Sensing, so memory retention and recall can be hard unless directed towards others (Fe).

    When she went on the trip with her Aunt and Uncle, that was another revelatory session for her. Her Ni pieced/connected it all out because she could "think clearly w/o distraction" + was away from the "Fe-ing Force" of Wickham + others! An INFJ can't concentrate on their thoughts/feelings when they become too intensely fixated on others and has already developed bias against the "Mean Attacker" for the "poor victim" as they want to listen and connect with this person.

    INFJ gone mad with prejudice can be seen easily as it's demonstrated when they're overpowered by Extroverted Feeling and not allowing their Introverted Intuition enough time to process it all thus bias can be easily formed. The problem is, sometimes, people can't believe b/c the INFJ is normally "Clear-headed", so they look OOC. I don't know where I found people saying Lizzy's sister Jane is an INFP but I somtimes think it's too crazy or maybe just about right if Jane is an evolved INFP...I think Jane is so silly and frustrating and I wanna hug her happiness in not having bias, however naive it is!!! IMHO, an INFP will not fall into bias easily because they take a long time in figuring the feelings of other's as well as their own. They will be more careful in determining the feelings of others privately in their headand work to prove them right or wrong. INFJs (Lizzy) will 'right away' work to prove if a person is trusting or not. It can be hard for both to change their minds once determined their ideas are right.

    -cont'd in Pt.2

  3. #103
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    I found Lizzy to look like a typical INFJ who's too biased, exterts their feelings wrongly onto others (Mr. Darcy, Charolette, Wickham, Jane) and sympathizes (not empathizes) too easily as Lizzy did with Mr. Wickham. Wickham quickly hashed out stories and so easily upon meeting her that she just JUMPED (Ni can't process when Fe is overwhelmed!) to feel sorry and she held bias (Fi) for Mr. Darcy for slighting her. Never mind her (Fe-ing) her bias onto misunderstanding him and the intentions/feelings of other's.
    Good agrument for her being INFJ.

  4. #104
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    Default Pt.2 Even longer!

    cont'd from Pt1.

    Lizzy = INFJ
    Jane = INFP
    Mr. Darcy = INTJ

    Jane might truly be an INFP who has landed on the other side of the fence and will not allow bias to form at all b/c they fear it--fear criticising a loved one or someone they're falling in love with. Jane was too focused on taking the only info she received (as she was isolated for a long time from Bingley and his sisters) which INFPs can do if they don't get a chance to learn more (Ne can't do it!). That's where the "Rose Coloured Glasses" can come in (same with INFJs towards their "visions" of people such as Lizzy).

    I've realised Jane was openly treated nicely by the wicked sisters of Mr. Bingley and it was probably due to her bias (yes, good bias) for Bingley that she found his relations as just like him. She didn't see Lizzy or couldn't hear any stubtlety against her sister being treated unfairly (Ne? Nope) because she wasn't really around to see it. And convo b/w the sisters in her presence as well as Lizzy's always focused on her and how sweet she was (to Lizzy's rolling eyes of being ignored + sis getting suckered) So, it was all about how they treated her (Fi) that she could infer at the time. It wasn't until later she took of the Rosey Glasses and crushed them into the ground...softly.

    INFP Jane held a lot of recollection of the events and kept putting Lizzy back in CHECK (Si being stronger for INFPs than INFJs). INFJ Lizzy wouldn't listen to her and in a nice 'arrogant' way would say "Oh, Jane, you're just too nice. You want to think or recall it that way, that's not what happened, you're mistaken, my dear! I saw it ALL!" but Jane DID have better memory + better perspective for Lizzy, just not for herself at the time due to the Rosey view.

    Another thing I noticed is in how Jane was implied to be better able in handling the kids. INFPs have Ne as their 2nd Cognitive Process so they can focus on the talkative enviornment better than an INFJ (Lizzy) can. Kids can be so overwhelming with possibilities and neverending questions. While appreciated, I'm sure it would be, by Lizzy, she'd likely not be able to "focus" b/c it's too much info. The kids adore Jane probably b/c she can "keep up" with them and zoom along for the ride. INFJs like to ask a lot sure, but they need to make comment from what you say. Then direct the convo with the next question once you've suficiently answered them. Noticed how Lizzy asked people what she wanted? She was always very direct when sure and less direct when unsure. Even wrongly direct in telling people about her half-envisioned assumptions and refusing to listen when it differed from her own (wasn't until a believed "trusted" servant could speak so openly about Darcy and briefly hint a bad apple in Wickham.).

    INFP Jane was WRONGLY mispercieved as not being interested by INTJ Mr. Darcy because she was too subtle in showing her affections. INTJs can be horrible at subtetly as well as INFJs unless they know the person well, sometimes. INTJs distrust "feelings" of other's or it makes them uncomfortable (unless developed/evolved). He didn't know Jane b/c she was so quiet and his friend always "appeared" (based off exp.) in being flighty with women he fancied. Because he COULD hear the idoicy of Jane's mother touting "She's always been the most beautiful, she was bound to marry herself WAY UP there!" He believed that, in order to protect his friend, that he would crush the idea out of Bingley. It's the same as with his sister's incident. He wanted Wickham AWAY from his sister so as not to 'influence' her with his insincere feelings for her. Just as he believe Jane's feelings insincere due to the "appearances" of her family, baring Lizzy.

    Jane was just gauging Mr. Bingley's feelings for her (Fi) and not wanting to show she was "falling" too fast because she was afraid of getting hurt if it didn't work out. She was NOT aware of the outer environment from other's chattering (Ne) whenever engaged with him. During the one ball (2nd?), Mr. Bingley and she were close and quiet in a corner. She was soaking up all he told her (Ne) in order to 'feel' him out (Fi). It was the ball where INTJ Darcy commented on not liking women who acted slighted by men or something like that (towards Lizzy as he knew she was listening).

    -cont'd in Pt3

  5. #105
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    I still think Jane is ISFP. I don't see evidence that she is N.

    Children drive me batty.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I still think Jane is ISFP. I don't see evidence that she is N.

    Children drive me batty.
    I briefly read that ISFJs don't like to share their opinions with other's. Lizzy was entirely opininated about everything and enjoyed sharing them with other's, to help or to put down.

    I also read that they feel overshadowed or overlooked and tread on by others. Lizzy has always been confident, even erroneously, as she has always "looked ahead". She'd predict what would happen if you "do this" (Don't let Lydia go! Mistake will happen!). She never once looked treaded to me but always fiercely held her ground or naturally held her ground.

    ISFJs have positive outlooks in life. Not to say INFJs don't but they like knowing anything can happen (as did Lizzy frequently tout as her 'predictions' would come true and then "See father, I was right!" And I read that ISFJs they defer to their mates in relationships. At not time did it appear Lizzy took anyone else's clues but her own or listented when they differed from her own 'vision'.

    But I shall continue in Pt.3

  7. #107
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    I see evidence for N in Lizzie but not Jane. I said think Jane is ISFP.

    Yes, I totally agree Lizzie definately not ISFJ.

  8. #108
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    Default Pt.3

    -cont'd from Pt.3

    Lizzy = INFJ
    Jane = INFP
    Mr. Darcy = INTJ

    During all balls, while Jane was only focused on Mr. Bingely, it was the opposite for Lizzy. Even when Bingley wasn't around, Jane could focus quietly in her own mind. Opposite with Lizzy. Even when she was entirely focused on Wickham's gratuitous display of Fe against her Ni's reasoning, it's due to being bombarded, not b/c she was trying to gauge his feelings for her (at the time.

    During the balls exlucding Wickham, Lizzy was entirely focused on all incoming info (Se is a nightmare for INFJs if not developed well) and it can distort and stop Ni from moving forward as usual. At the ball where she was slighted by Darcy: she could spot Darcy saying this, hear Jane doing that ("Oh splendid!"), find her mother acting this ("Stop embarrassing us!") and sister's doing that "Have you no shame!?!"), tried getting her dad to intervene "Why aren't you doing anything, you're the boss!!!" so it all bombarded her Se into her Fe lamenting that her family was making themselves + her/Jane look Foolish! And...INFJs care oh so very much about 'appearances' for themselves and that of other's close to them. When they see it, they wanna DO something to correct it (right or wrong)!! When Lizzy laments it's her family's fault for ruining Jane's chances, she saw it as their character having influenced other's to ridicule the family(their stupid Fe)---but consequently, in her POV, it reflected wrongly onto her and Jane as well (Fi angry for self and Fe angry for Jane. Recall her reproaching her dad about it[i hope]?). INFJ Lizzy constantly wants to direct/control the appearance of the family only once they started making them all look bad. Before? She knew they're deficiencies and didn't mind it b/c it hadn't been too seriously misconstrued in society. It was when her younger sisters became too much to handle for her as she couldn't 'direct/focus' on all of them at once (Se nightmare) "Where are they? What are they doing? STOP!".She'd become frustrated and vent to Jane how idiotic they all were but Jane was more humble about the bad personalities of the family "It's okay, they'll learn in time as we did...You have to leave them be in order for their own common sense to develop."

    At Lizzy's best, in the end, when she is able reproach Darcy's Aunt 'against the social conventions she pays mind of if not entirely respects', she didn't want to speak of her personal feelings to his Aunt "None of your business, it's too personal." and she didn't want to speak of HIS feelings either (she became respectful of 'personal space' again + still sensitive to all that he did and meant to her). Even though it was ON THE SPOT and rattled her fiercely, because she'd been peering + piecing all not so long ago, she knew exactly what she wanted to say and stopped "appearing" so acceptable to Darcy's Aunt. I recall her "trying" to be when she didn't want to play the piano but did so anyway so as not to be rude. As Darcy's Aunt criticised HER for HER family (Ican berate them, NOT anyone else and ESP. YOU, thankyou!), her character + and entire social class was a low blow. Someone like that snivelling cousin might enjoy it but not INFJ Lizzy. INFP Jane might've been alarmed and retreated or BLEW UP ('bout time..if it happened) but as she didn't know that Aunt, she'd have probably just dismissed and figured "erroneous" thinking "You don't know my family like I do. Their issues are their own. Leave them be."). Had INFJ Lizzy not known her and was blasted, she'd have attacked back ("I know my family is messed up but they are MINE to correct, not yours!"). That's why I also think Jane was more allowing of stupid Lydia to go away ("to learn a mistake if so") but Lizzy wouldn't allow it already foreseeing disaster (for Lydia + all family) and wanted to ensure image + propriety of Lydia("can't make a mistake, won't let you") Lizzy's trusted Dad not listening was upsetting as he should KNOW how trustworthy and valid her opinions are as he's taken them before!

    INFP Jane took the chance in trying to meet him in London but Wicked Sister 1 gave her the runaround and was rude to her. She realised she was too biased in favour of Mr. Bingley by seeing that if HE is nice then his SISTERS who were nice to HER (from the beginning) were not as nice as she thought. She then tells her sister how much of a "bitch" they must've really been to pretend to be so nice (k, not the word but you know) and to thwart her.

    Both can have biases though. An INFP will be more biased with their feelings. An INFJ will be more biased with their 'visions' (not psychic--) but what they envision for the 'future' for others and themselves once figured out.

    INTJs and INFJs are very much mirror opposities. All CProcesses are the same except with regards to T vs F. This is why both Lizzy and Darcy were so stuck on their visions of the other. Darcy snapped himself out of it much sooner, probably because he had less to deal with. And he could disengage his 'hurt feelings' in order to gain logical perspective (much harder for INFJ Lizzy). He realised he had "info" and knew of Mr. Wickham's real character, whereas Lizzy didn't, since the SOB nearly ruined his beloved baby sister's life. Which is why he knew he had to 'get him away' from his sister so her feelings wouldn't be bombarded (Fe) by him. He wisened that Lizzy wouldn't listen after the big blow up b/c both had repressed their true feelings for the other. Though, it might be said that Lizzy realised she had an "attraction" to him but b/c she knew how he felt, she delivered the lowest blow she could "I had already determined(predicted) that you were the last man on Earth that I'd ever deign to put myself in marriage with!". INFJs can be very cruel and attack you for 'revenge' in the name of 'justice' for having wronged them or their loved ones. Even though INTJ Darcy kept his sensitive "opinions" on her social status, he knew that logically it was BAD for him to marry her and he kept trusting that logic throughout until he could no longer justify it. "To hell with societal pressure, I hated my entire life anyway! I want a real person who'll challenge me!" His being forthcoming about 'proposal's end' was not done in a 'nice' manner (too charged) so it would've been misunderstood as it was. "The greed of your mother and even father, stupid sisters, just all of you except ___ + ___ <--she can't hear the exception of herself and that of Jane being 'decent', she's just focusing on "all of them" being attacked and lumped. Even if nicely said, WHO proposes in the way he did? A socially awkward INTJ might! so once rejected! they now try to explain what they always 'knew' but didn't want to say to 'protect' you, loved one, but look what you made them do anyway!

    INTJs and INFJs don't like telling extremely personal things to other's, an INTJ even more so. While an INFJ seems to be doing so, and they somewhat are, it's the not deepest of their feelings b/c they hold that back for safekeeping. They'll know YOUR feelings and YOUR feelings but rarely understand theirs. They sometimes, if emotionally unhealthy, take on the projected feelings of other's and believe it 'matches' theirs when they haven't even thought things through. As Lizzy did with Wickham. Subtlety, as I mentioned is bad for INTJs/INFJs, so when Darcy tried relaying in a subtle way to Lizzy and it backfired b/c she detected but couldn't believe it (too subtle), he had to be more direct via The Full Disclosure Letter. Direct and he 'figured' her out at that point, that his trying to 'observe' her as close as possible was too awkward and that he wasn't good at speaking his thoughts so writing would be better to bypass her just Fe-ing all over him again (his Ni = "Lesson learned. Apply Better Tactics in way that Bypasses screaming Fe."

    I realise I sound entirely too certain lol So sorry for sounding that way. And I knew it may look like I'm biased as I'm an INFJ BUT...I originally loathed Lizzy and thought "Too overbearing! To bossy! Too easily duped by emotions!" until it struck me (during a recent argument) how I can devolve into a similiar pattern and have. INTJ Darcy seems very likely to me. INFP Jane, I was the most uncertain of as she's TOO PASSIVE and even INFPs have their bloody limits!! Feel free to dissect my arguments

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by DD
    I realise I sound entirely too certain lol So sorry for sounding that way.
    No need to apololgize, this is all SERIOUS business. It is okay to support your own thesis with certainity in the debate.

    I tend to agree with your estimation of Lizzie as INFJ, but I have a problem as either Jay or Mom brought up (I think it was Mom) that she was so ready with a verbal response to Darcy. Do you think that is possible for INFJ?

    An imature INFP could very well be that passive without well developed Ne but she could also be ISFP without well developed Se. I have trouble with an INFP falling in love easily with a man who claims to not read, but that is just me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    No need to apololgize, this is all SERIOUS business. It is okay to support your own thesis with certainity in the debate.

    I tend to agree with your estimation of Lizzie as INFJ, but I have a problem as either Jay or Mom brought up (I think it was Mom) that she was so ready with a verbal response to Darcy. Do you think that is possible for INFJ?
    Are you KIDDING me! She'd been "storing up" all that negative info about him that it became easy to just "spew it out" instead of think of it in the moment. I can't recall if I mentioned it in my thread or if I'm going to lol. There's a misconception about INFJs/INTJs not being able to speak eloquently as they 'can't gather' their thoughts if Ni is bombarded by other people/places. This can be true, but if pushed on a topic they've already 'slaved over', this applies to Darcy too, they can react with that and just shove it all out via BAD Fi to incite the person in question. There's also the misconception that INFPs have nothing to say or are so floaty/flighty (you've been reading my observations, right?, so you know I most 100% dispute that...or you know now ). It also depends upon rearing + circumstance + education. If THRUST out to speak or encourage they do well, they may develop nicely at a younger age. I did! ...sometimes...no improv until now! But that's based off of info that's still stored, ask me to do poetry on the spot? Easy. Ask me to make a joke? I'll freeze. I make jokes w/o realising. I did Broadcasting () during my uni break and we'd have live On-Air broadcasts to improve us. I ALWAYS chose to do the reading news + w/e was on paper. I NEVER ONCE did the "on-air live", I didn't know why it freaked me out and when people pushed me to try, I said "I'm much better helping you in the control room.(So I did that too and pushed err buttons ).

    INFJs can ask and ask and ask after 'waiting' so they can comment and offer up Ni's insights to help others (you've noticed by now that I keep asking and wanting your input for INFPs, right, heart? ). It can also happen when pushed in anger Ni works FAST! (and will spew forth) having wrongly taken info via Fe which when screamed out can really blast another person. To the person, the INFJ knew exactly what buttons to break and where to push them over the cliff. Some INFJs joke about paranoia but if they've been attacked or ridiculed before, they CAN retain that info of what they'd like to say as it relates to Fe-ing a person in specific(not a place/#s/names). It's the same for when INFPs observe to take in info, INFJs take some info in to store it for the future (sometimes random things to), for good scenarios or bad scenarios. They keep being touted as oh so sweet and 'nice' 'giving', and yes they can be, but if emotionally unhealthy, they can be as easily unfogiving, manipulative and dicating as say...a Hitler?

    I know the INFJ Hitler thing is either hated by INFJs or 'accepted' as 'possible' by INFJs, not so sure, but if IIIII had a vision and I wanted it carried out, I'd use my 'observations' to erroneously help others into my way of thinking b/c Ti has slaved away in making sure I got the facts down and the info memorized (in relation to people, it's stronger), so that when I must, I'll know what to say and HOW to say it.

    If you look at his fantacism on "appearance" "being the right way", it can also possibly be derived from his illegimate roots (shame from society!) + being rejected by society (more shame!) to which he TRIED fitting in. He TRIED getting a Jewish woman but she rejected him for her religion (if true, I forget). "So, that's what you find sacred, huh? I'll destroy all of it til you can't love it anymore b/c you denied ME!"

    ...not that I believe him an INFJ. I know he's a Taurus...and so am I...so I am doomed even if he's not an INFJ! I should probably not make him look like a paranoid, ever future envisioning, Fe-ing bastard who twisted the structure of society around him to make it seem he was being nice by bettering it for everyone else and turning people into his loyal cult-like followers always entrusting his inflated ego like a very very very naughty INFJ....!

    An imature INFP could very well be that passive without well developed Ne but she could also be ISFP without well developed Se. I have trouble with an INFP falling in love easily with a man who claims to not read, but that is just me.
    Are you still speaking on Lizzy or on Jane? I think Jane, so I shall choose her. I had trouble with her not showing enough awareness for bias. But INFPs (and others) learn from experience. She had never, as most of the family, been surrounded by corruption or the influences of London Town so she may have just been filled with the fantasies of it. She may not have developed Ne to the extent, as you said, in being passive. I also think it might explain, if she could be an INFP, that once she DID get the Ne experience from the mean sisters and she was able to gain new perspective (and recall Lizzy warning her), she was ready to push the girls out of her 'passively' controlled heart and make true (good) bias again.

    She realised her error with Bingley, but realised "Well, a loss is a loss so I shan't dwell on it" (INFJ Lizzy DWELLS incessantly). But she had hope that he did care for her. I don't recall Jane so much as uttering an "I love you" until the end (?) she was very cautious about displaying and confirming it to others even when teased about it (even by Lizzy). When Lizzy teased, she'd defer the "feeling" Lizzy was focusing on (Liz: "You love him!" Jane: "Um, just a bit?") to explain "Isn't he charming though? Didn't you think him nice? Wasn't he nice to everyone and not just me? He's a gentleman that all men should emulate." What does she know of most men? Even Lizzy was more aware that people are differing kinds of mean and disgusting. If only she took her OWN advice, INFJs can be so bad at that when emotionally "unhealthy".

    INFJ: You seem stressed you should do A, C, D, F, and maybe in case they don't work, L and try C again and Q.
    Person: You look pretty bad yourself, you stressed? Maybe you should do some of that...
    INFK: No, I'm fine! I'm doing okay! Let's just worry about you! (INFJ: *don't look at me like I'm incompetent, I don't even want to look right now as I can still function better than you!*)

    Even while Jane was "running away" with her the possibilities of her ideas/feelings (not truly expressing "intimately held feelings"), she realised she might've been hurting Lizzy's feelings (as Wickham was digging gold in some chick and + Darcy being 'unliked' fresh in mind due to W), so she exclaimed "But I have faiththat YOU will find someone whom you'll fall in love with, Lizzy! I just know it! You really deserve someone special as Mr. Bingley is for ME" (even though she didn't truly "claim" him and kept insisting that she didn't own him, she inferred as much that she hoped she had a claim on him to Lizzy.

    Oh, and, thank you for allowing me to be stubborn about my choices I agree, this is so serious!

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