Inception

[foolish heart]

SPOILER ALERT



1. How did Cobb and Saito get back to "reality" at the end without someone to give them the kick?

2. Regarding the fourth dream level, the subconscious one that Cobb and Mal created...how is it that this is shared by everyone? How is it that Cobb knew Fisher and Saito were there? It seems to me that everyone would have their own subconscious and be lost to everyone else. Did they actually tap into the collective unconscious?

1) They "laid their heads on the train tracks" so to speak. They were reciting the thing about being young together, so even though Saito had been living in his world for many years he still remembered enough to go back. The first time this happened to Cobb was with Mal and he had to perform inception on her to "burn" her connection with their present reality so she could be convinced to return.

2) They never explain the mechanics of how people dream together, but Cobb and Mal did the very same thing. There seems to be nothing inherently different about the dream mechanics of entering or leaving the "4th" or subconscious dream state that would cause it to work any differently than 1-3, the defining factor is that it's so deep that in dream time you can be down there for 50+ years for only ~48 hours of being under (at a factor of 12 per level as they state 5 minutes is 1 hour at the first). As they say at the beginning, the mind perceives and creates at the same time without even knowing it's happening, and since it's subconscious it's purely what your mind creates. So after such long periods of time spent there I imagine it's difficult for anyone but the most experienced dreamers still know the difference between that and reality and even fathom that there's a reason they need to "wake up".

That is why people get lost there and it fucks them up in the head so they never know what's real and what's dream after that (Id think some would even spend more time in the dream world than they'd be alive in the real world, hence why they were saying that the dream becomes more of a reality than reality itself). That's why Cobb performed inception on Mal, and he had to deal with the reality that that it wasn't his fault that it was his inception that kept growing that eventually caused her to kill herself even after she woke up... because it's what he had to do to try and get her back. When someone feels guilty, touching on that makes them defensive which is why Mal had always been such an aggressive projection. It was Cobb's subconscious guilt about killing the woman he spent a lifetime with by the inception process that manifested itself throughout the movie as a means to self sabotage their mission to perform inception on Fisher.

Maybe the machine that maintains the sedation also connects the dreamer with some kind of transmitter of their neurological mapping? I didn't bother paying much attention to it because it was clearly something supposedly invented in the future. It could be practically anything.

 

[swordpath]

I liked it. One that I definitely need to see again.

 

[Venom]

Ariadne for INFJ. She seemed to care too much for an INTP

Agreed on your typings, though towards the end I started to wonder if Ariadne was an INFJ, just based on her insights into Cobb's character. Whatever, she's still a quintessential Architect, and Arthur was the quintessential ISTJ.

Throughout this movie, I couldn't stop thinking about Jungian Archetypes and dream analysis. "The waters of the subconscious", landing you upon a shore "where you could create your own world and become a god" sounds like some of Jung's writing.

Sorry, don't mean to spoil anything.

I really don't think the makers were trying to confuse you, I think they were trying to create meaning in complexity. For such an intricate plot, I was impressed not to see any inconsistencies other than one that baffled me at the end.

This movie is Ni. Its about reality having layers. Symbols are more than just drawings, even representations of time, perception etc, all can represent other things in a layered view of reality. The ocean sort of made me think of the "collective unconscious" as Jung would put it.

Overall I liked the movie. Seemed like a very Ni movie. Talking about perception, reality, what's real and what's not etc

SPOILER

Regarding the collective unconscious: I have a few thoughts
Regarding why Cobb/Mal: I think the reason they go to their created limbo was because Cobb's psychic barriers no longer contain Mal. He's tried to stuff her down in his unconscious but she keeps trying to escape. So, the deeper they go the stronger she gets. I think people would go to their 'own' limbo but go to theirs because his barriers no longer function. Also, they share this place because they shared the dream in the first place.

Second: I want to hear people's thoughts on the ending. I think there are two interpretations

The first is that Cobb never woke up and went deeper into the dream state. He succumbed to limbo and everyone there is a projection. He has seen them before so his mind can assimilate them. Maybe this is what his limbo looks like after he disposes of Mal and clears his baggage.

The second is much more boring. Its just that he wakes up and goes home.

I think both are in fact possible, but I lean towards the second only because the dradle noise indicated that it was slowing

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I've seen it twice and my favorite aspect is *spoiler alert* going to white...

Is the time folding itself over and multiplying. On the first level of the dream it's only 30 seconds, while on the fourth it's days. I like Nolan's back tracking to the first level of the dream where the van was falling, I found it funny.

If I remember right Cobb talks about Limbo being the remenants of the last person who resided within it, thus the reason why it's Cobb's 'limbo'. I think the closeness of the people in the dream does make sense from them to be collectively in the same limbo.

 

[Totenkindly]

I really liked the movie. It's amazing to me the work that went into writing the script in a way that makes the film not completely baffling and unintelligible, and also convinced a studio to commit the money to make the film.

Considering it was Christopher Nolan, it's not a big surprise -- he has a proven track record for the last ten years. And he actually was greenlighted to write it as a project but decided to do it as a spec script instead, to have more time I guess...

Honestly, the guy is amazing when it comes to editing; he does movies that could easily fall apart considering all the weird time and space jumps... and yet he pulls it off (or close to it) nearly every time. The Batman movies and Insomnia were actually the easier pieces, in terms of editing; The Prestige, Inception, and Memento were pretty crazy, in terms of making the story intelligible AND only revealing what you need to reveal regardless of which time you're in.

Not only does he keep things pretty clear and trackable, but his movies still tend to be about the inner psychology of the characters, not the external issues. Inception was really more about Cobb coming to terms with Mal and seeing his kids again (and Fisher coming to terms with his dad, as sort of a smaller reflection of Cobb's issue).

 

[21%]

Not only does he keep things pretty clear and trackable, but his movies still tend to be about the inner psychology of the characters, not the external issues. Inception was really more about Cobb coming to terms with Mal and seeing his kids again (and Fisher coming to terms with his dad, as sort of a smaller reflection of Cobb's issue).

I don't get it when people say it's too intellectual and not emotional enough. I cried >_>

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah, I cried too at the end, when Mal died (and he said he had to let her go and move on)... and when he saw his kid's faces.

The whole Fisher subplot was great too -- how to get him to accept the desired thought plant in a positive, rather than negative, vein. That's really the sort of shift in thinking that will effectively make Fisher do what they want. He focused on that picture of him as a kid, and instead of pulling out the will, pulls out the pinwheel.

But really, all of Nolan's work is like this. Intricate plotting, but it's always about the people. Everything centers on them coming to terms with some secret they've been harboring, sometimes even from themselves.

 

[Venom]

new typology test:

Did you like Inception?

If you "ABSOLUTELY HATED IT":
SJ

If you could "take it or leave it":
SP

If you "generally liked it":
NP

If you REALLY LOVED IT:
NJ

This has been true for about 95% of the people I have talked to about the film. Hearing the SJ reaction to this film is HILARIOUS. Most of them just complain about some stupid "tree" and fail to see "the forest". I normally dont type hate, but this film has brought it out in me .

 

[teslashock]

Hm, I don't know if that's a good summation of the types and how they feel about the movie. I saw it with about 6 other NPs and we all "REALLY LOVED IT."

The film can appeal to Ne just as much as it does to Ni. The film is like a web of dreams and symbols and hidden meanings, with each detail leading to a new insight/meaning. I think Ns in general will really go for this film, as it's action with an enigmatic twist.

The film also appeals to Se with all the detailed, captivating action scenes that basically engulf you with the lush, fantastical environment.

 

[Haphazard]

The thing that bothered me about this movie was that the dreams weren't very... dreamlike, you know?

 

[Totenkindly]

Hm, I don't know if that's a good summation of the types and how they feel about the movie. I saw it with about 6 other NPs and we all "REALLY LOVED IT."

Yeah, I don't agree with Bab's assessment either. I also don't know if NJ vs NP is the best way to break it up. I think Te-strong people are more apt to bitch about the details that don't match, while the NFJs might or might not like it depending on how they felt the psychological/relational aspects were presented, and so for.

 

[r.a]

i just came back from watching it and i loved all of it. the cast was top notch and the ideas presented were stimulating and inspiring. i would pay to go on that ride again.

and the zero-g hallway fight was really sweet.

 

[Take Five]

I doubt type has any substantial relevance to reviews. I went with another SJ and an SP and the reviews were good all around. In fact the two SJs give it better ratings than the SP. When it comes to liking movies, the genres and actors and directors come into play more than type. I really liked it. My interpretation of the ending is the boring version.

 

[Totenkindly]

and the zero-g hallway fight was really sweet.

as far as eye candy goes... yeah, that was really cool.

 

[MacGuffin]

Heh, maybe I should post all my INTPc questions here...

 

[Totenkindly]

NoooOoOooOooO! He's infecting this forum now!

Sure, go for it.

(copy my posts too while you're at it, okay?)

 

[MacGuffin]

NoooOoOooOooO! He's infecting this forum now!

Sure, go for it.

(copy my posts too while you're at it, okay?)

Too much work! I'll just stick to my unanswered/interesting questions.

SPOILERS OBVIOUSLY




Okay, I fully admit that some of the following might've been explained away in all the dialogue I missed. Or perhaps Christopher Nolan doesn't care to explain it, to do so would just drag the story to a halt.

1) Did anyone else have any trouble hearing the dialogue? Esp. the Japanese guy, Saito.


4) Was the first dream within a dream a test by Saito? I thought they were hired by rivals of Saito, but then I read later when I got home it was all a test set up by him. If so, who was chasing Cobb when he went to meet with the Forger, Eames?


5) Am I right that any of the team can alter the dream? Cobb did this subconsciously, but I don't know if this was a rare problem, or if anyone could do it. I assume that the car and guns aren't put there by the architect, hence the line (I heard it!) about dreaming "a bigger gun". Basically, why'd they have a dream machine on the third level? They weren't expecting to go any deeper.


6) Speaking of the dream machine, why do they need it in the dreams other than to fool Fischer? It's all imaginary at that point, why not just take the red pill? Or maybe it was the blue pill...


7) If they can alter the dream, why don't they do it more often? I'd think a bullet-proof Iron Man suit would come in handy. Why couldn't anyone do what the Forger did? Did that require talent, training?


8) Speaking of conjuring things, was anyone else disappointed by Limbo/Cobb's id? Architecture is great and all, but wouldn't a subconscious have Godzilla stomping thru or something? He was able to dream up his kids and wife. Hardly any sign of life otherwise. I was expecting something more trippy like Eternal Sunshine.


11) I saw OMW came to the same conclusion I did - does it really matter whether Cobb's life is but a dream or not? Does it matter to you?


12) Of course a lot of the above doesn't matter if it's all a dream. I didn't ask myself most of these questions until after, much like you don't question dream logic until you wake up. Was that all on purpose by Nolan?


This brings up another question(s) about Limbo: how does one escape? Must it be willing? Why didn't Cobb just kill his wife and himself and wake up? Why bother with inception in the first place? How did Eames know when to use the defib on Fischer? Why didn't Fischer go to his own little Limbo area instead of Cobb's? Saito did.


What is your theory on the totem?
...if people take their totems into dreams with them as part of their personal identity, one would never be able to use it as an anchor to reality - it would always be there and an architect wouldn't have to worry about it at all. You have to assume there are four posibilities:

1) it is exactly as you know it in reality - and therefore you are in reality;
2) it is missing - you are in someone else's dream and they didn't know about it;
3) it is there but does not match the "real" object - you are in someone else's dream and they messed up your object;
4) it is there but does not match the "real" object but behaves as you expect in a dream - which leads me to my next point.

The endlessly spinning top is a different kind of totem than whathername's falling chess piece. She just pulls it out and sees if it doesn't fall over. Then she knows she's been pulled into a dream. Her dream totem behaves like the real life one - if she's the one that created it and not an architect. If it falls over then she knows she's in reality or on a job (hopefully she'll remember she's in a dream on the job then or she would confuse the dream for reality), or an architect has gotten ahold of her totem in real life and duplicated it (then she's in trouble).

Cobb's endlessly spinning top is different. He isn't trying to replicate how the object behaves in reality. He alters it to spin endlessly. If he can't do it, then he knows he's not in a dream. He's not trying to check whether he's in someone else's dream - he wants to know if he's dreaming or not because he's losing his grip on reality.

The loaded die seems to be the best totem - he knows the secret so he can figure out if someone's replicated it, plus he can alter it in dreams to know whether he's dreaming or in reality. Cobb's doesn't have a hidden feature in real life. In a way, Cobb doesn't care if someone replicates it, all he is really concerned about is figuring out if he's dreaming or not.

And if his subconscious can make the top stop when he's consciously trying to make it spin forever...

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

1.) I agree, Saito and the forger I can't think of his name were the hardest to understand.
5.) I think anyone can alter a dream, but if the dream is altered too much then the subconscious begins to realize that someone is within their dream thus why they attack you. I think the reason why Fischer's 'men' attacked so quickly was because Cobb brought his own sub-conscious within the dream.
7.) 5 answered that I think. The more you alter the dream the more the subconscious realizes something is wrong and tries to 'kill' you.

I was personally disappointed that they only brought up Cobb's totem. I thought it would've been cool if they had tried to use the others, but I understand that his was the most useful for the movies sake. The audience got a chance to relax and realize what was and wasn't a dream.

I'm not really sure about the other ones. I think Ellen Pages character could still be an INTP. She could read Cobb like a book, but she wasn't really concerned about his welfare, it was a concern for the job that they were working on, which is more of an NT thing.

 

[MacGuffin]

SPOILERS

5.) I think anyone can alter a dream, but if the dream is altered too much then the subconscious begins to realize that someone is within their dream thus why they attack you. I think the reason why Fischer's 'men' attacked so quickly was because Cobb brought his own sub-conscious within the dream.
7.) 5 answered that I think. The more you alter the dream the more the subconscious realizes something is wrong and tries to 'kill' you.

That brings something else up, once Fischer leaves one level (and the only one left is the dreamer on that level - none of the dreams were actually his), why are his men still trying to kill them? Wouldn't they be gone?

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Very true. Poor answer, but perhaps it's residue from the sub-conscious that occupied it. Kind of like with limbo?

Maybe the fact that his presence (body) is still in the dream his subconscious still exists within it as well.