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Thread: Inception

  1. #61
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    I saw this movie this Sunday and it was well worth it. Probably one of the best movies ive seen, ever!

    And as a lucid dreamer, i can totally relate to it. Interestingly enough, i started a thread on lucid dreaming a few months before on typc

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...g-process.html

    ^^


    Some replies to some posts above mine, might contain spoilers


    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    The thing that bothered me about this movie was that the dreams weren't very... dreamlike, you know?
    It depends, some lucid dreams can be very logical and seem as if its the real thing. especially so when one wakes up from a dream within a dream in a lucid dream....one can even feel "relief"...and even think "oh phew..that was just a dream"..when in a dream itself. it has happened to me quite a few times.

    also another thing i experienced is that the entire world..or city or place the dream takes in need not be meticulously crafted...that's why i do not get the "architect" thing...for me at least when i open a door in a lucid dream...it looks like a room...with furnishings/look based on what type of room it is(in that particular dream). Its as if we create the surrounding "on demand" and not ahead of time.

    also in the movie, Cobb says to Ariadne something along the lines of

    "Dont worry too much about the details, set up the big picture and people will fit it up with details"


    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    The film can appeal to Ne just as much as it does to Ni. The film is like a web of dreams and symbols and hidden meanings, with each detail leading to a new insight/meaning. I think Ns in general will really go for this film, as it's action with an enigmatic twist.
    .

    I think so too



    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post

    This movie is Ni. Its about reality having layers. Symbols are more than just drawings, even representations of time, perception etc, all can represent other things in a layered view of reality. The ocean sort of made me think of the "collective unconscious" as Jung would put it.



    I think both are in fact possible, but I lean towards the second only because the dradle noise indicated that it was slowing
    I seem to think along these lines as well...the ..."washing up om the shore/raising up from a sea" motif seems to be repeated quite often in this movie.

    maybe it signifies transitions between different layers of the collective unconscious...or even going deeper and deeper within ones own conscious


    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    I've seen it twice and my favorite aspect is *spoiler alert* going to white...

    Is the time folding itself over and multiplying. On the first level of the dream it's only 30 seconds, while on the fourth it's days. I like Nolan's back tracking to the first level of the dream where the van was falling, I found it funny.

    If I remember right Cobb talks about Limbo being the remenants of the last person who resided within it, thus the reason why it's Cobb's 'limbo'. I think the closeness of the people in the dream does make sense from them to be collectively in the same limbo.

    I read somewhere that in real dreams, "near infinite" dream time might occur within just a few seconds of real time. So i think the inceptions time-scale...even though it grows exponentially as one traverses the layers, is still slower than actual dream time.

    but its a pretty nifty idea the way they explained it in the movie
    Extraverted - 25 Introverted - 75
    Sensing - 0 Intuition - 100
    Thinking - 63 Feeling - 37
    Judging - 63 Perceiving - 37
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    It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    Regarding the "Kick"

    this actually happens in Lucid dreams. When one falls or is hit by something big inside a lucid dream, he wakes up.

    not like the "calm awakening" one sees in the inception movie...but more with a jolt.at least that's what I've experienced.

    The whole body jolts as if its been given an electric shock. and this jolt wakes one up instantly.

    the other way to wake up from a lucid dream is to solve the dream
    solving = arriving at an acceptable conclusion(to you)


    i say it again...fascinating movie
    Extraverted - 25 Introverted - 75
    Sensing - 0 Intuition - 100
    Thinking - 63 Feeling - 37
    Judging - 63 Perceiving - 37
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    It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.

  3. #63
    facettes de la petite mor Words of Ivory's Avatar
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    Yeah, I've experienced those "kicks" a few times in my own dreams. I've never felt I could control my dreams, but I've always had a dull awareness of the fact that I'm doing so, on the (rare) occasions when I do.

    Anyway, regarding the movie. I just got back from seeing this at the cinema. My personal thoughts? (Don't worry, it's spoiler free.)

    It's good. It certainly isn't bad. The story's direction and eventual conclusion was ultimately predictable right from the beginning (an unfortunate side-effect of currently popular story-telling conventions), but the way in which the characters reached that eventual conclusion certainly wasn't.

    On an emotional level, Inception felt like it was a far simpler movie than it could have been, or should have been. I simply do not buy into the main character's "closure" near the end of the movie. I might just need to mull over it more, but something felt like it was missing there - a concrete and acceptable answer, a believable reason.

    There was so much more room for the supporting character to grow, but for the most part, It seemed to me that they served little purpose to the story beyond being a convenient means to push the plot in the direction that it needed to go. This is a poor use of a supporting case. They're meant to support you, not carry you.

    The dream world felt like it could have been far more visually out there than it was. What they did show was well conveyed, but I always had the nagging feeling in my minds eyes that there could have been so much more to it, so much more untapped potential for the idea.

    Then again, dreams are an extremely complex concept and are, by their very nature, infinite in possibilities, so maybe it's simply something that could never been satisfactorily expressed in the visual medium, because of our own personal knowledge and experiences of the world of dreams. Sandman did it better, that's all I say.

    I found the best imagery was in the starting half of the movie, the most diverse and intriguing. The biggest let down was the army base. It felt like an entirely contrived and unoriginal metaphor.

    The acting of the ensemble cast was solid despite their lack of influence and emotional involvement with the story, and DeCaprio has always been a great performer... in the right roles. This was one of those roles.

    I hope there isn't a sequel simply because I *want* that ending to be left open to interpretation. It's one of the best movie endings I've seen in quite a while, and it is the one part of the movie that will be remembered by all who watch it. It is the one truly defining and perfectly realised moment of the movie.

    Everyone will be discussing *that* one moment after they watch this film. There's no doubt about that.

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  4. #64
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    I agree that a sequel would ruin things... especially all the philosophical issues raised by the movie.

    I don't see a lot of point in discussing the movie, though, without spoilers. There's not much that can be said of this movie's complexity unless we actually share details.

    I don't particularly like DiCaprio as an actor, he's kind of wooden to me much of the time. (Titanic, I felt like all his lines fell flat.) I did see Revolutionary Road as a better fit for him (because he played a boy trying so hard to be a man)... and honestly, this is the best performance I've seen by him, although I've heard his first was excellent.

    While the ending is the first thing that people will discuss (and it's definitely powerful when you see it, supported by a climactic score in that part), what one learns after examining the others issues raised is that the ending doesn't really even matter.

    I had no issues with the character's self-discovered closure, for many many reasons. It's actually where he's been moving toward the whole picture... especially if he is Incepting himself or fighting off a foreign Inception levied against him. He's being asked to make a "leap of faith" throughout the movie, and in the end, he does... just not in the way that he was often encouraged.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #65
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    I agree that a sequel would ruin things... especially all the philosophical issues raised by the movie.

    I don't see a lot of point in discussing the movie, though, without spoilers. There's not much that can be said of this movie's complexity unless we actually share details.

    I don't particularly like DiCaprio as an actor, he's kind of wooden to me much of the time. (Titanic, I felt like all his lines fell flat.) I did see Revolutionary Road as a better fit for him (because he played a boy trying so hard to be a man)... and honestly, this is the best performance I've seen by him, although I've heard his first was excellent.

    While the ending is the first thing that people will discuss (and it's definitely powerful when you see it, supported by a climactic score in that part), what one learns after examining the others issues raised is that the ending doesn't really even matter.

    I had no issues with the character's self-discovered closure, for many many reasons. It's actually where he's been moving toward the whole picture... especially if he is Incepting himself or fighting off a foreign Inception levied against him. He's being asked to make a "leap of faith" throughout the movie, and in the end, he does... just not in the way that he was often encouraged. And, honestly, I've had enough of moments of catharsis in my own life that usually that's how it happens... I already know what I need to do, but it's too painful and scary to make the decision until I'm pushed into a corner and certain things have resolved inside of me...and then I make the decision and say exactly what I knew all along.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #66
    Member Serge's Avatar
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    SPOILERS YO
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradewind View Post
    Overall I liked the movie. Seemed like a very Ni movie. Talking about perception, reality, what's real and what's not etc

    SPOILER

    Regarding the collective unconscious: I have a few thoughts
    Regarding why Cobb/Mal: I think the reason they go to their created limbo was because Cobb's psychic barriers no longer contain Mal. He's tried to stuff her down in his unconscious but she keeps trying to escape. So, the deeper they go the stronger she gets. I think people would go to their 'own' limbo but go to theirs because his barriers no longer function. Also, they share this place because they shared the dream in the first place.

    Second: I want to hear people's thoughts on the ending. I think there are two interpretations

    The first is that Cobb never woke up and went deeper into the dream state. He succumbed to limbo and everyone there is a projection. He has seen them before so his mind can assimilate them. Maybe this is what his limbo looks like after he disposes of Mal and clears his baggage.

    The second is much more boring. Its just that he wakes up and goes home.

    I've posted this a few places (I saw this last night, so I gotta get at it while it's fresh)

    Personally, I think the ending was a dream but I also think that it doesn't matter. I think the words before Cobb is put under by Yusef was were important and telling: "These people don't come here to sleep....they come here to wake up, who are you to judge them?". After that, he attempts to check his totem but he does not succeed because he was interrupted. He then goes on to use his dream team to make a inception into his own mind, that he no longer needs to be guilty about the death of his wife which is primarily done by Ariadne; Fischer being the bait that allows him to think that the dream he was having was true and Adriane being the individual who leads him out of his own despair. At the end of the movie, he once again tries to check to see if he is in reality but he decides to take a "leap of faith" and just accept that the world he is living in is reality.

    Few questions though: All the team members were kicked out of every level of the dream except Cobb and Saito, wouldn't this be an indicator that he was still dreaming? Also...those two drowned as well, correct?
    Also, random info I happen to have

    Also, quite a few of the names have alternative meanings; Cobb = Another word for Spider. Mal = Bad (luck) Eames = Charles and Ray Eames, famous architects. Ariadne = Mythology Yusef = roughly Joseph from the christian bible, who has the ability to interpret dreams. Fischer = Fisher?

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Too much work! I'll just stick to my unanswered/interesting questions.

    SPOILERS OBVIOUSLY




    Okay, I fully admit that some of the following might've been explained away in all the dialogue I missed. Or perhaps Christopher Nolan doesn't care to explain it, to do so would just drag the story to a halt.

    1) Did anyone else have any trouble hearing the dialogue? Esp. the Japanese guy, Saito.
    He had quite an accent, but I heard everything he said clearly.
    4) Was the first dream within a dream a test by Saito? I thought they were hired by rivals of Saito, but then I read later when I got home it was all a test set up by him. If so, who was chasing Cobb when he went to meet with the Forger, Eames?
    He basically manipulated them to see their skills.
    5) Am I right that any of the team can alter the dream? Cobb did this subconsciously, but I don't know if this was a rare problem, or if anyone could do it. I assume that the car and guns aren't put there by the architect, hence the line (I heard it!) about dreaming "a bigger gun". Basically, why'd they have a dream machine on the third level? They weren't expecting to go any deeper.
    I believe anyone can alter the dream outside of the subject. You generally DON'T alter the dream because the subjects projections would start focusing in on you.
    6) Speaking of the dream machine, why do they need it in the dreams other than to fool Fischer? It's all imaginary at that point, why not just take the red pill? Or maybe it was the blue pill...
    Hmm. Don't know really. It might have just been so that the viewers would understand what is happening?
    7) If they can alter the dream, why don't they do it more often? I'd think a bullet-proof Iron Man suit would come in handy. Why couldn't anyone do what the Forger did? Did that require talent, training?
    If you alter the dream, the projections that the subject produces will attack you more vigorously. It would cause the mission to become more difficult and it was also make the subject (Fischer) to become suspicious. Eames (the forger) is your basic impersonator, theoretically speaking anyone can do what he did (conjure weapons and a costume) BUT he is the only person with the adequate skills to impersonate someone well. Also, he is the only person on the team who actually knows what Brown (the kidnapped guy, whatever his name was) acts like. Acting correctly leads to believability.
    8) Speaking of conjuring things, was anyone else disappointed by Limbo/Cobb's id? Architecture is great and all, but wouldn't a subconscious have Godzilla stomping thru or something? He was able to dream up his kids and wife. Hardly any sign of life otherwise. I was expecting something more trippy like Eternal Sunshine.
    Well. Cobb's limbo is built by him. He's an architect. What else were you suspecting? Plus the very real fear and guilt trumps godzilla stomping around, at least to me.
    11) I saw OMW came to the same conclusion I did - does it really matter whether Cobb's life is but a dream or not? Does it matter to you?
    Like I said above, no it doesn't. He got rid of his guilt and also took a leap of faith and just took his world to be real. That's the most telling part. Potentially, he'll never know. (I suspect the totem only works when another person tries to reproduce it in a dream, if you're in a dream of your own, then your totem will work as you would want it to)
    12) Of course a lot of the above doesn't matter if it's all a dream. I didn't ask myself most of these questions until after, much like you don't question dream logic until you wake up. Was that all on purpose by Nolan?
    Some thinks this is all a allegory towards film making. It's meant to be interpretive.
    This brings up another question(s) about Limbo: how does one escape? Must it be willing? Why didn't Cobb just kill his wife and himself and wake up? Why bother with inception in the first place? How did Eames know when to use the defib on Fischer? Why didn't Fischer go to his own little Limbo area instead of Cobb's? Saito did.
    To escape Limbo, it seems that you need to realize that you're in a dream. Unfortunately, Mal took this idea too far. Hence why is it plausible that Saito and Cobb escaped limbo. Eames heard the music, it's how they tell each other when they need to set up the 'kick'

    As explained by the movie, the limbo that is shown is Cobbs because he was the last individual to go to limbo. Saito didn't really go to his own limbo, he was in cobbs, and Saito just created something I assume. Also, I don't think fischer was "dead" I also think that they simply dived into another level and Cobb entered limbo because Mal killed him.

    Also, random info, my favorite character was Eames, Saito, and Arthur. Interesting. The ENTP, XNTJ, and the ISTJ.
    Johari/Nohari wall! Thanks in advance for filling it out.

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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serge View Post
    Personally, I think the ending was a dream but I also think that it doesn't matter.
    I posted that about 30 seconds before you did.

    It's a true postmodern ending. Not only is it unclear what happened, but it also doesn't matter whether it was real or not. It's not about what's "true," it's about what Cobb has decided for himself and values and thus it is his reality.

    ...He then goes on to use his dream team to make a inception into his own mind,
    yes.

    that he no longer needs to be guilty about the death of his wife which is primarily done by Ariadne; Fischer being the bait that allows him to think that the dream he was having was true and Adriane being the individual who leads him out of his own despair. At the end of the movie, he once again tries to check to see if he is in reality but he decides to take a "leap of faith" and just accept that the world he is living in is reality.
    Yup. I think Ariadne is his personal guide through the labyrinth, a projection of himself (most likely) speaking back to him and telling him what he already knows. It's why he is so open with her.

    Few questions though: All the team members were kicked out of every level of the dream except Cobb and Saito, wouldn't this be an indicator that he was still dreaming? Also...those two drowned as well, correct? Another thing is Saito was taken to Cobb's limbo and was severely aged.
    The team gets bumped back to level one. They don't need to be kicked out of level 1 because they will be released once the sedation is stopped in the "real world." So they are still dreaming even while Cobb is down in Limbo.

    Saito dies in the Ice Fortress. He might have also died in the other two levels, we don't know. (Dying in one level only sends you back to the last... except for this particular dream, because of the sedation; you will get dropped into Limbo if you die anywhere.) Saito is still in the van with Cobb in Yusef's dream. Ariadne travels the kick back up and escapes drowning.

    Limbo is Limbo.
    Limbo is empty except for whatever stuff that was left there by people within the particular dream.
    Cobb was the only one who was there.
    Saito goes to a different part of Limbo, and Cobb has to find him. Saito has been there decades by the time Cobb catches up to him. He remembers Cobb despite it being decades, and they share the Inception-like phrase -- "Do you want to die an old man and alone?"

    Also, quite a few of the names have alternative meanings; Cobb = Another word for Spider. Mal = Bad (luck) Eames = Charles and Ray Eames, famous architects. Ariadne = Mythology Yusef = roughly Joseph from the christian bible, who has the ability to interpret dreams. Fischer = Fisher?
    Fischer shares his entire name with Bobby Fischer, the chess master. The rest are all correct.

    He basically manipulated them to see their skills.
    Specifically, he learned that a real extraction was going to be aimed at him, but since he was prepared, he allowed it in order to test the culprits since he badly needed to find someone to Incept Fischer.

    I believe anyone can alter the dream outside of the subject. You generally DON'T alter the dream because the subjects projections would start focusing in on you.
    I'm not sure anyone can, although Eames does dream up a big gun in Yusef's dream. We do definitely see Ariadne in her own dream with Cobb in the French cafe changing lots of stuff, and Cobb (the subject) keeps warning her not to, and his projections kill her.


    If you alter the dream, the projections that the subject produces will attack you more vigorously. It would cause the mission to become more difficult and it was also make the subject (Fischer) to become suspicious. Eames (the forger) is your basic impersonator, theoretically speaking anyone can do what he did (conjure weapons and a costume) BUT he is the only person with the adequate skills to impersonate someone well. Also, he is the only person on the team who actually knows what Brown (the kidnapped guy, whatever his name was) acts like. Acting correctly leads to believability.
    Yes. Remember the bar scene in Arthur's hotel dream? Cobb is pulling a Mr. Charles gambit on Fischer, and lets him know that he is dreaming. During this, he sees a vision of his own children and falters... and immediately everyone in the bar turns and looks at him. He catches himself and manages to convince Fischer he's on the level

    The key seems to be when the subject realizes he's dreaming. If he knows or thinks he's dreaming because someone is mucking with the dreamworld or not acting quite correctly, the projects start to become aggressive.

    To escape Limbo, it seems that you need to realize that you're in a dream. Unfortunately, Mal took this idea too far.
    She didn't really have a choice.
    Cobb went into her "safe," the place where she had hidden her totem because she had wanted to accept Limbo as real (because she wanted so badly for she and Cobb to be together) and he started her totem spinning. The totem is actually inside of her, it's in her "secret place." Thus, in the core of her being, she constantly could sense the spinning totem even if she was ever in the "real world." So she always felt like she was in a false reality.


    As explained by the movie, the limbo that is shown is Cobbs because he was the last individual to go to limbo. Saito didn't really go to his own limbo, he was in cobbs, and Saito just created something I assume. Also, I don't think fischer was "dead" I also think that they simply dived into another level and Cobb entered limbo because Mal killed him.
    yup, that's right.

    Also, random info, my favorite character was Eames, Saito, and Arthur. Interesting. The ENTP, XNTJ, and the ISTJ.
    I think I liked Mal and Ariadne the best. I'm not sure what they are (ISFJ in "dark mode" for Mal, and Ariadne is Cobb's Superego projection).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #68
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    Smile Wow!

    It's uncanny. And I am still in mild shock after seeing, "Inception".

    For years I have been banging on about trance and trances within trance and directing you to the site Trance Institute Courses where Dennis Wier forensically lays out trance for us. But I may as well have been speaking to a brick wall.

    And then all of a sudden, here it is, all of it, in accurate detail right down to the perception of reality in the deepest trance.

    The only difference is Christopher Nolan uses the word 'dream' instead of 'trance' to make it more accessible to the public.

    The secret that I was forced to keep to myself is now up on the silver screen for all to see.

    But all is safe. For listening to the patrons as they left the theatre, I could see that they did not understand what they had just seen.

    But now the cat is out of the bag and, "Inception", can always to used to illustrate Dennis Wier's Trance Theory.

    And what an illustration it is. Wow!

    Postscript: you can find Dennis Wier on Facebook by clicking on Trance Research | Facebook

  9. #69
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    Smile The Medium is the Message

    Ancient manuscripts were often beautifully illustrated. And the illustrations themselves are works of art. So in the same way, "Inception", illustrates Dennis Wier's Trance Theory.

    Of course in a manuscript the writing and the illustrations are on the same parchment. But it would seem that, "Inception", and Trance Theory are not on the same page. And in fact they appear not to be linked at all.

    But they are linked here - they are linked by hyper-link.

    And hyper-links are links in the noosphere.

    So both, "Inception", and Trance Theory are in the noosphere together. Just as writing and illustration are on the same parchment.

    So the noosphere and a parchment have something in common - they are both mediums.

    And the medium is the message.

    So what message does parchment give and what message does the noosphere give?

    What sense does parchment extend and what senses does the noosphere extend?

    And what form of society does parchment create and what form of society does the noosphere create?

    The answer is found at -
    http://www.digitalparlor.org/fa07/bl...r_writings.pdf

    Now don't peek now. Let the questions swill around in your mind like a good wine. And only when you have tasted the full flavour, take another delicious sip.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Just finished and I've got questions ^^'

    Did Frischer get killed in Dream World 3? (Ice Fortress) or was he merely dying? In which case, was he essentially revived from Dream 4?

    If he is dead. Why did they not repeat the same procedure with Saito?


    Otherwise I quite enjoyed it. My interpretation of the ending was that Cobb's never did find Saito in D4, never woke up, instead went to his own dream world where he saved saito and returned home. One problem with D5 or "Limbo" is that it wasn't falling apart despite D4 falling apart due to D3 explosion.

    Obviously I didn't take on the interpretation that Limbo is shared consciousness. Instead I interpreted it as in, he is in his own seperate dream and everything else is a projection.

    Another thing I was thinking about: It's possible to die in D2 (Drowning) - D3 (Elevator Death) - D4 (Falling building) so if they didn't wake up in time from the deeper level, what would have happened? It appears they can miss 'kicks' since they all stayed in D3 despite D1 having been activated. D2 seemed to have failed due to the gravity sensation?

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