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  1. #11
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    Revised edition now up. It's about 1,5 minutes shorter and sounds a bit more varied, especially in the end. It also has tons more automation in it, making the sounds merge together a bit better. Yet somehow I don't like it better. Feedback is welcome.
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  2. #12
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmy View Post
    Good advice

    I find the song a bit too stretched myself as well, but the thing is. I don't really want to shorten it. I initially did want to bring more variation by adding more sound effects, but after struggling with them I just couldn't find any that mixed nicely into the song. I'm hardly happy with the way some of them current ones are sounding right now.

    As for breakdowns, I was deliberately trying to avoid them. There is one in the middle that (it's right before the acid lead kicks in). Though I'm not sure, It sounds too short now, but sounds too long if I add another measure(It's a weak point in the song, I know), I could use some input on that.

    Do you think adding more crashes and snare rolls during the highlight of the song will for more variation, or will it just distract from the sound too much?
    Adding 'more stuff' won't necessarily help, which's likely a common misconception... I'm not sure, but from the acid trance I've listened to, I would imagine it is XD

    Rather, it's not the adding instruments or sound effects that would aid it, as it is things like keying out certain instruments, building, and subtracting from whot is there.

    I don't recognize whot most of these instruments are supposed to be (not a big deal, sounds good so that doesn't matter XD ) but it'll make describing this more difficult =3

    Let's say...

    3:53 is when the main part enters... no clue whot it's supposed to be but that's besides the point XD Whot may work, is to, later on about a minute and a half or so after that, say 5:30ish, fade out all the other instrument parts except for the main section that intro'd at 3:53, and dim the volume on that, quieting it down, then rebuild it back up by adding the instruments back in one at a time.

    Yeu don't really need to add really special stuff, so much as just keep it from sounding repetitive for an extended time is all. Shifts in the instrument choices, such as described in the paragraph above here, shouldn't be too difficult to add in or edit with whotever program yeu were using to make it, and they'll add alot of extra depth.

    Volume control and which instruments are playing at a time are one of the easiest to control, and can make one of the greatest differences.

    For an example (this isn't a trance song, but it does a nice job of showing a similar progression style as yeurs).

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJtWQ-P-8hU"]Example piece - Veigar Margeirsson - Revelations[/YOUTUBE]

    Now this has the same gradual buildup as yeur own piece, though it does so at a much quicker pace; where yeurs took 4 minutes to reach the climax, this one manages to attain its' strongest performance at 1:42. The quicker buildup still is quite slow and gradual however. (of course in this one a good example of whot NOT to do is at 1:57, where a very sloppy transition occurs where a section of the standard rising notes is cut off and feels very forced and lacking. Forcing a transition TOO early, or with bad timing, can also make a huge difference, mostly for the worse.



    For an example of one which transitions back and forth rather than building up then just sitting there endlessly:

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6uX0MWetHA"]Further example - Globus - Europa[/YOUTUBE]

    At 0:47 it's already managed to phaze gradually into its' peak, yet by 0:59 it's already cut back by removing the choir and vocals, which in a song like this, literally are treated as an instrument. 1:54 is an excellent transition back down to a lower beat by cutting back hard and could've built right back up again a layer of instruments at a time. Of course, in this example, they buggered it up right after at 1:58 with a rotten transition to whot sounds like another song entirely... DON'T do that XD The 2:09 transition fits well though, just a simple beat of the drums and it cues right back into the full peak once more. Whot I would've suggested for this particular example, would've been for the gap from 1:58-2:09 to be replaced with a much toned down section, similar to 0:05-0:19 was, and then do the 2:09 transition back into full force again. This would've felt alot more natural and fitting to the song's progression.



    Now, to show something a little closer to whot yeu have, as the previous two examples are far shorter, and are more for demonstration purposes of specific concepts...

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeBWlehATPk"]Syna - Face of God[/YOUTUBE]

    This's a much longer piece of ambient trance, where the 1:13 transition flows very naturally, despite that the section before it with the buildup isn't even part of the main song until much later on.

    The key thing to listen to in this one, however, is for the specific transitions and when they occur. If yeu watch closely, the song changes pace, or at least has a significant alteration in instrument choice every 30 seconds or so, which keeps it from feeling too repetitive, despite that it really is. On average, it'll do a major transition every 1:30 or so, completely changing the pace of the song, with every 30 seconds or so an incremental adjustment to the layers of instrument samples in use.

    This's more of whot yeu're looking for right here... to be able to make minor adjustments on a regular basis, to keep things fresh and from falling stale, while still maintaining the main feel of the song as a whole. Furthermore, yeu want to be able to do some drastic changes every 1:30-2:00 roughly, as otherwise it'll seem to drag on, sort of similar to...

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X46VKCX3Tg8"]Tangerine Dream - Catwalk[/YOUTUBE]

    Nice song, but there's a problem. The full version I have runs FIFTEEN MINUTES. And during that entire time, there's only three major transitions; one at about a minute in, and another about halfway through, and the last transitions back from the midway one about a minute later.

    This means that 13 out of the 15 minutes of the song sounds pretty much the same in the version I have XD

    Sadly that one's not available on youtube due to the 10 minute restriction problem.

    The one linked isn't nearly as bad due to being live, so some improvisation going on that's not available in the full version.



    Of course, if yeu *REALLY* want to see a master at work for taking a single span of music, and then bloating it out to ridiculous proportions, and STILL maintaining it sounding good without going dry... check out some stuff by Mike Oldfield. Tubular bells 1, 2 and 3 all have the same main 'riff' I guess which they are each centered around. And each one of these is 45+ minutes long.

    Yeu're on the right track and have a great set of basic music to work with now, but now comes the tough part of refining it into something truly epic =3

    Which I think yeu have a good shot at being able to pull it off actually! Just keep in mind yeu don't need to severely alter the music itself (though it doesn't hurt at all, so long as it feels appropriate to the song, unlike the Globus - Europa example which shows how to screw up a good song by transitioning to something that doesn't fit at all), but mostly yeu just need to break up the monotony and the repetition. Hopefully these examples should give yeu a few ideas, though I'm not by any means saying copy them exactly (wouldn't really work right with yeur song =3 ), but I am saying try studying how they went about spicing up something that was essentially the same short note progression that loops nearly indefinitely, without letting it become stale in the process.

    The song yeu've finished so far is good, but I think yeu can fine tune it to be far greater with a little more polish ^^

  3. #13
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmy View Post
    Revised edition now up. It's about 1,5 minutes shorter and sounds a bit more varied, especially in the end. It also has tons more automation in it, making the sounds merge together a bit better. Yet somehow I don't like it better. Feedback is welcome.
    Listening to the revised edition now, and comparing to the original back and forth.

    So far, the 2:38 addition of the notes cutting out like that doesn't really sound right, yeu're correct on that.

    The extended transition at 3:04 is a good change, but then reverts back to where it was, rather than finalizing the transition into the next piece as with the previous version.

    I hadn't even noticed the blending of when yeu added the other section, which's good nicely done, but doesn't seem to work quite right with this style of song. Think yeu might want to try to go back to a sharper, more distinctive cut in which makes it more clear that it's being applied.

    That section also was alot more noticibly overlapping the previously introduced layers in the original version, and it doesn't seem to be nearly as present this time around. While the experimentation is good, and yeu worked in some nice ideas this time, I think yeu left out a few of the things yeu'd done right the first time, which is probably why yeu don't like it as much.

  4. #14
    meat popsicle r.a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmy View Post
    I heard about ableton, never worked with it though. What does it do (well)?
    with ableton you can record, and not just external things like mics or instuments, but straight from reason to a track on ableton. also, many more editing options and bad ass effects you can add on. there isn't any waveform editing on reason unless you purchase record by propellerheads, and ableton live is a better DAW anyways. ableton live and reason work seamlessly together, and if you ever plan on performing your music in live sequencing format, ableton is the way to go.

    but for now, get to know reason. your shit is sounding pretty good so far. keep it up. once you feel ready to take the next step, get ableton.
    "All authority of any kind, especially in the field of thought and understanding, is destructive and evil. Leaders destroy the followers and the followers destroy the leaders. You have to be your own teacher and your own disciple. You have to question everything that man has accepted as valuable, as necessary."
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    J.Krishnamurti

  5. #15
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    Just finished mastering a third version. I think it sounds muuuuuch better. I'll upload it soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by r.a View Post
    with ableton you can record, and not just external things like mics or instuments, but straight from reason to a track on ableton. also, many more editing options and bad ass effects you can add on. there isn't any waveform editing on reason unless you purchase record by propellerheads, and ableton live is a better DAW anyways. ableton live and reason work seamlessly together, and if you ever plan on performing your music in live sequencing format, ableton is the way to go.

    but for now, get to know reason. your shit is sounding pretty good so far. keep it up. once you feel ready to take the next step, get ableton.
    Thanks for the tip, I'll keep it in mind.

    EDIT:

    I posted the newest version as the second video of the opening post, check it out.

    EDIT

    Nope, sorry guys, edited it again, next version up soon.
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  6. #16
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmy View Post
    Just finished mastering a third version. I think it sounds muuuuuch better. I'll upload it soon.



    Thanks for the tip, I'll keep it in mind.

    EDIT:

    I posted the newest version as the second video of the opening post, check it out.

    EDIT

    Nope, sorry guys, edited it again, next version up soon.
    XD At least yeu're making progress <3

    Glad yeu're having so many revelations now ^^

    It's nice to see someone so excited and enthralled to their creation <3

  7. #17
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Yeah, glad to see you're keeping at it instead of giving up on it.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  8. #18
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    Latest version is up (second video in the first post), left the first one up for comparison. I will delete it from my youtube channel later when we're through comparing versions in this thread.

    I must I'm pleased with the result, but after listening to the song for soooooo many times I'm fed up with listening to it right now. For my next song I'm thinking something more quiet, like ambient, chillout or liquid funk at most.

    One thing I learned from making this song is that attention goes in the details. I made short tunes before and found that very easy to do, couple minutes of synth editing, laying down some notes and voilá, one minute of sound. Starting this song I assumed that making a whole song wouldn't be that much more difficult, wrong assumption.

    think I spend about 2 hours creating the actual sounds, programming synthesizers adding main effects and making note patterns, another two hours sequencing the patterns and adding the subtler effects, and then well over 8 hours to fine tune everything, adding automation, making sure patterns fitted nicely, adjusting volumes on separate channels in the mixer.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    yeah, definitely take a break from it, don't burn yourself out.

    I always underestimate the time it'll take me for a creative endeavor. Video takes me forever and I've only just started playing with sound and have no clue what I'm doing in that area.

    Play around with a new song and then come back to this one after some time has passed and see what you think.

    Also sometimes you just have to stop working on something and consider it done.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  10. #20
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    yeah, definitely take a break from it, don't burn yourself out.

    I always underestimate the time it'll take me for a creative endeavor. Video takes me forever and I've only just started playing with sound and have no clue what I'm doing in that area.

    Play around with a new song and then come back to this one after some time has passed and see what you think.

    Also sometimes you just have to stop working on something and consider it done.
    Yeah, I know. I thought maybe the main riff (the acid synth that kicks in right after the break) kicked in a bit too loud and sudden, after trying a billion different volume and effect settings I realized that it wasn't going to sound better and went back to just letting it kick in.

    On another note, I found a way to get sound from the program ReBirth into Reason, but I can't figure out if and how to use patterns made in Reason, rather then the standard ones from ReBirth. And is it possible to automate the knobs in ReBirth from Reason? This is something I want to find out, because ReBirth and Reason are both awesome and I want to use them together.

    Edit, found out how the sequencer on those Roland TB-303 work, so I can make my own patterns in ReBirth. Now to figure out how to automate knobs and levers in ReBirth.
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