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Thread: WORLD CUP 2010

  1. #441
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    England vs Germany on Sunday. Oh dear. Time for all the anti-German prejudice in England to come to the surface again. And I am a bloody German living in England. Whoever uses the match as an excuse to tell me another stupid Second World War joke or thinks the Hitler salute is terribly entertaining deserves a kick in the balls and I hope they will swell to the size of actual footballs. Ha!
    You started it.

  2. #442
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    [FONT="Palatino Linotype"]Whilst I'll acknowledge that two of our three performances so far have been poor, it is ludicrous to say that England is "just not very good"; we have some of the best players in the world, playing club football for some of the best teams in the world.
    I said nothing of the players, only mentioned that the team is not very good, a point that you've conceded below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    [The problem lies, or perhaps lay, with those players being unable to act as a unified team.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #443
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Don't sulk. And don't blame the Merrylanders, either.

    Sulking French blame England for their World Cup exit | News
    It's nonsense. Don't think England is more important than it is.
    If "les bleus" failed so abysmally, no other nation should be blaimed, and I'm wondering how your newspaper could even suggest another possibilty, unless they think too high of themselves already.

    Nonetheless, I keep my word: I stand for the Germans. But in the case they are defeated, I will stand for England, and gladly. Portugal has also a very interesting team.

    Like Solitarywalker, the only team I do not wish to win is Italy, and for the exact same reasons. Cheaters, racism, and lame game, they're the scum of the football world.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #444
    He who laughs
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Don't sulk. And don't blame the Merrylanders, either.

    Sulking French blame England for their World Cup exit | News
    that was a funny read thank you

  5. #445
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    that was a funny read thank you
    But it's totally innacurate.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    But it's totally innacurate.
    How?

  7. #447
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    I said nothing of the players, only mentioned that the team is not very good, a point that you've conceded below.
    In saying that the team is not very good, you are clearly not only commenting on the extent to which the players in that team work together effectively; if you are, you are communicating inadequately. When one claims that a sports team "isn't very good", one is almost always referring to the quality of not only the above, but also of the individual players in that team.

  8. #448
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    [FONT="Palatino Linotype"]In saying that the team is not very good, you are clearly not only commenting on the extent to which the players in that team work together effectively;]
    How good a team is is assessed by the results the team attains without infringements upon the rules of the game. Essentially the 'goodness' factor is a general appraisal of all the merits and demerits that a team needs in order to perform well without violating the rules.

    In principle it is possible for a team to have good players, but nonetheless display poor performance on a consistent basis. Precisely that is the case with England. There is no contradiction in saying that a certain team has good players, but its overall quality level is low. The only way there would be a contradiction between these two claims is if having quality players was the sole requisite for having a good team, but that is simply not the case.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  9. #449
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post

    How good a team is is assessed by the results the team attains without infringements upon the rules of the game. Essentially the 'goodness' factor is a general appraisal of all the merits and demerits that a team needs in order to perform well without violating the rules.

    In principle it is possible for a team to have good players, but nonetheless display poor performance on a consistent basis. Precisely that is the case with England. There is no contradiction in saying that a certain team has good players, but its overall quality level is low. The only way there would be a contradiction between these two claims is if having quality players was the sole requisite for having a good team, but that is simply not the case.
    Much of what you assert is questionable or unclear, but all of your assertions seem only remotely relevant. I did not claim or imply that it is impossible for a team to have good players yet still be a poor team. There are many factors that determine the overall quality of a sports team: the quality of each individual player, the competence of the manager/head coach, the sophistication of the team's training grounds, the extent to which the players play "as a team" (i.e. unified), etc. My claims were simply these:

    In saying that the team is not very good, you are clearly not only commenting on the extent to which the players in that team work together effectively; if you are, you are communicating inadequately. When one claims that a sports team "isn't very good", one is almost always referring to(EDIT: i.e. commenting on) the quality of not only the above (EDIT: i.e. the extent to which the players in that team work together effectively), but also of the individual players in that team.
    I suggest you read this more closely. I am not in the least interested in what factors are involved in calculating the "goodness" of a sports team. I am talking about "habits of meaning", a lamentably poor term, but the best I can do at this time of night (morning).

  10. #450
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Nothing of what I said was unclear, I stated that England was a bad team. Now, that's certainly questionable and depends on how you define a good team. The definition of a good team that I've propounded is its ability to get positive results without breaking the rules. All of this is very relevant as the whole discussion is about whether or not England should be thought of as a bad team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    [ but all of your assertions seem only remotely relevant. I did not claim or imply that it is impossible for a team to have good players yet still be a poor team. There are many factors that determine the overall quality of a sports team: the quality of each individual player, the competence of the manager/head coach, the sophistication of the team's training grounds, the extent to which the players play "as a team" (i.e. unified), etc. My claims were simply these,]
    I don't believe any of this contradicts my claims.


    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    [ I am talking about "habits of meaning", a lamentably poor term, but the best I can do at this time of night (morning).[/FONT]

    Upon a closer reading, all I've noticed is that you're exploring the definition of a good team in greater depth than I have. I said that a good team is one that attains positive results without bending the rules, yet you stated that the overall quality of a sports team is determined by various factors such as quality of coaches, sophistication of training, unity of players and so forth. From the perspective of my argument one may respond that all of these factors determine how likely a team will be able to win games fairly. Essentially I have stated a general overview of the concept of a good team and you have shed light upon the constituents to which it could be reduced.

    Now we go back to your main contention: England is not a bad team because it has very good players. This claim can be refuted within your own conceptual framework regarding the evaluation of a team's merit. You've stated that various factors such as quality of coaches, players, unity (team spirit) and so forth determine how good a team is. Thus, from this premise one may reason that the quality of players is but one factor that influences the overall quality of the team and therefore it is in principle possible for a group of soccer players to be composed of exceptionally talented individual players, yet lack other virtues that characterize good teams such as quality of coaching staff, unity and so forth.

    On the basis of this conclusion, one may regard the claim that England, a team of exceptional individual talent is a bad team as tenable.

    Lastly, I am going to respond to your second objection: when a person claims that a certain team is bad, he almost always means that the players are bad also. This claim is by nature descriptive rather than conceptual, determining whether this is true is a job for an investigative journalist and is of no concern to a purely conceptual review of the topic. However, from the purely analytical perspective, there is no reason why a claim that team X is bad should committ one to the claim that team X has bad players. In light of the fact that a cornucopia of different factors determine whether a team is good and the quality of players is but one of numerous of such factors, there is no reason to suppose that its impossible for a team to employ exceptional players yet display very poor quality.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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