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  1. #31
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks Z; I was seeing what you were answering, but I was hoping H could articulate it more completely, more ... specifically. I wanted to pin down the source of the discontent.

    Question still stands.



    Thanks for providing the context.
    I guess, the biggest thing was in that book, where did everyone go? I suppose there could have been blacks running around in the book and I didn't notice, but it had gotten down to the point of sectarian violence between only Christian groups. What happened to all the Hindus? The Buddhists? The Muslims? I see them all over here. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I didn't read anything about mass genocides in there. The colonies? WHAT colonies? Where are they talking about? The Bikini Atoll? Where the hell is Canada in all this, just sitting passively on top there? Is it still the same? Don't they know that stuff like this tends to spill over (as we are seeing with the drug violence in Mexico)? Where the hell is the rest of the country? I never heard of anything West of Appalachia mentioned. What happened to all the money? Would megacorporations really fold that easily to something as poor as protestantism?

    I'm trying to think. Perhaps the surge in religion she sees is anticommunist sentiment. In communism, religion is a way to hold down the masses. "Under God" was only added in the pledge of allegiance because of the Cold War, after all.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Would megacorporations really fold that easily to something as poor as protestantism?
    As poor as Protestantism?

    According to Max Weber, it was Protestantism that built those megacorporations...

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I'm trying to think. Perhaps the surge in religion she sees is anticommunist sentiment. In communism, religion is a way to hold down the masses. "Under God" was only added in the pledge of allegiance because of the Cold War, after all.
    Perhaps.

    More likely she's just being reactionary to the rise of religious fundamentalism that took place in the 20th century, itself a reaction to the "death of God" and the underlying sense of uncertainty produced in its wake.

  3. #33
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    As poor as Protestantism?

    According to Max Weber, it was Protestantism that built those megacorporations...



    Perhaps.

    More likely she's just being reactionary to the rise of religious fundamentalism that took place in the 20th century, itself a reaction to the "death of God" and the underlying sense of uncertainty produced in its wake.
    And yet, Protestantism isn't going to take them away. In America, there is an underlying belief that religion and prosperity go hand in hand. Making the country poor means that the religion isn't working.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #34
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm just stupid...
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Oh.

    I liked the writing style, I just totally didn't get it. I guess I just feel like I'm missing something of vital importance to understanding this book.
    This may seem off topic, but Cat's Eye is my favorite book by Margaret Atwood. I recommend it if you couldn't get into The Handmaid's Tale, it's more her "usual" style of writing.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    And yet, Protestantism isn't going to take them away.
    I don't think it's trying to, but yes, I agree, I don't think it could if it were...

    The most effective mode of production will almost always win out (at least in the West...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    In America, there is an underlying belief that religion and prosperity go hand in hand.
    I think you're somewhat accurate here, but I'd say the belief has more to do with "morality" than "religion".

    And, well, in a lot of ways, that belief is true...

    We wouldn't find ourselves in this whole stupid economic mess if we'd had better morals...

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Maybe I'm just stupid...
    No, you're not.

    You wouldn't be thinking about these questions if you were.

  7. #37
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Thanks for the explanation H. I hear what you are saying. I think though it's important to remember that the very definition of a dystopia excludes certain social issues and isolates and exaggerates others in order to point out negative qualities of the ones under examination.

    Thus, many of the "loose ends" you rightly point out here, are *poof* magically gone. So interestingly, complaining about the lack of realism is irrelevant in the context of any dystopian "thought experiment."
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #38
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    This is what struck me in her comment (aside from the silly sci-fi thing)

    First of all, ask yourself the following question: If you were going to take over the United States, how would you do it? Would you say, "I'm a socialist and we're all going to be equal"? No, you would not, because it wouldn't work. Would you say, "I'm a liberal and we are going to have a society of multiple toleration"? You probably wouldn't say that if you wanted mass support. You would be much more likely to say, "I have the word from God and this is the way we should run things." That probably would have more of a chance of working, and in fact there are a number of movements in the States saying just that, and getting lots of dollars and influence.
    No, what you would be more likely to say is, "I can make us prosperous again, I can keep us the world's greatest power." At the risk of invoking a reducto ad hitlerum, I'd guess we're more likely to have a Hitler than an Ayatolla Khomeini here.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #39
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks for the explanation H. I hear what you are saying. I think though it's important to remember that the very definition of a dystopia excludes certain social issues and isolates and exaggerates others in order to point out negative qualities of the ones under examination.

    Thus, many of the "loose ends" you rightly point out here, are *poof* magically gone. So interestingly, complaining about the lack of realism is irrelevant in the context of any dystopian "thought experiment."
    So anything I think is irrelevant.

    I think I know what it is about this book that I don't like, it's that it makes me feel marginalized. Nothing that I see in the world is in this book. It takes parts of the world that I, and many others, see as insignificant, give them tremendous power, and destroys the important things in our lives with no explanation and barely a whiff of remembrance.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  10. #40
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ I don't mean it like that; I mean that the author gets to tidily toss aside a certain reality in favor of the things he or she wants to reveal to you the reader.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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