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  1. #51
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    This says it best. There were no stated rules, they just made it up as they went along. Which has been the complaint of me and the legions of people who abandoned the show at some point or other. Likewise as the bolded portion suggests, and as I state earlier in the thread, there were also many people who didn't mind so much and stuck around. I don't knock anyone for not minding, I just so happen to mind.
    Your position is inconsistent. Earlier you complained about inconsistencies in the show. However, when pressed for specifics, you now claim there were no rules? Then you say you "don't knock anyone for not minding", when clearly the point of this thread is to do just that.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #52
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    At first, the viewer could truly consider themselves to be 'lost' in the show watching it. True to its name in all regards. A great concept, a great series.

    But now the viewer just finds himself inside a hole, and inside of that hole, there is a big ass sign saying: "For Rabbits!".

    The viewer is no longer lost. He knows where he is, and just wants to get the fuck out.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  3. #53
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Then you say you "don't knock anyone for not minding", when clearly the point of this thread is to do just that
    Seriously?

    First of all the point of the thread isn't to knock anyone. The point of the thread is to express MY opinion. Furthermore nowhere do I discourage anyone else from expressing THEIR opinion. Sure I disagree with Jenn and Mac, but I don't knock them (I never go, "you fucking idiot how do you like this show?!"), in fact I admit to still watching and just having issue with the inconsistencies, of which there are plenty. See the difference? If you see everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion as knocking you personally, I don't know what to tell you.

    Your position is inconsistent... Earlier you complained about inconsistencies in the show. However, when pressed for specifics, you now claim there were no rules?
    There are no rules. Which is why the show is inconsistent. You said all fiction asks you to suspend belief, I responded, good fiction asks you to suspend belief and then asks you to believe a new set of rules specific to that fiction. Lost does not do so and hence me and millions of others who stopped watching after the initial season or so, feeling like they make it up as they go along. I always go out of my way to also acknowledge millions of others didn't mind and stuck with the show throughout and so it's no biggie if you don't mind the inconsistencies. But there are TONS of inconsistencies. You don't see them? You need me to spell it out for you? Fine. You want inconsistencies? I'll give you inconsistencies.
    For those who are not up to date with the show spoilers alert:

    Lets just take the sideways flashes. It's supposed to be the "what if the plane never crashed" world. But look at all of the huge differences. Sawyer is a cop not a conman, Ben never gets to The Island, The Daniel was now never a scientist but an artist, Sun is pregnant although they were not supposed to be able to have children if not for the miracle of The Island, Desmond never meets Penny, yet Kate is still wanted, Jack is still a Doctor (he just has a family now), Locke is still wheel-chair bound, Sayid still a former Republican Guard haunted by his past, etc. If you could claim to make rhyme or reason out of this beyond the arbitrary whims of the writers you'd be a liar. It's not "what if the plane never crashed" it's "what if some of them had mostly different lives except where it's convenient for us to have them be the same".

    So now lets look at Desmond realizing "something is up" once he starts pursuing Penny, why does Penny's mother discourage him and offer the "you don't know what you're doing" warning when there's no fucking way she should have any idea about the alternative time line what so ever? What about Daniel just mysteriously deciding to tell him about the formula and it's implications? How does Daniel the artist even grasp the implications of the formula? It's been posited that near death is what gives them realization of the alternate time line, but he just one day wrote this formula and had a scientist friend tell him what it meant and figures he must have already detonated a neutron bomb? Really?

    I could go on and on and on...

    Edit: While I'm at it, when they go in to Rico's back story, The Man in Black tries to get him to kill Jacob, but when he tries Jacob goes all Jet Li on him, disarms him, and kicks his ass. Yet when Ben kills him, he never attempts to defend himself, he's all "don't do this, you don't have to do this"?!?! GTFOH!!!
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

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  4. #54
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    WTF! I only watch this on-line via streaming and they are already showing repeats. Those "enhanced videos" with commentary pop ups are really annoying. I don't need to be reminded of all the details of the show as if I were watching it with the comic book store dude...I only watch it for mind numbing escapism.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

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  5. #55
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    Lets just take the sideways flashes. It's supposed to be the "what if the plane never crashed" world. But look at all of the huge differences. Sawyer is a cop not a conman, Ben never gets to The Island, The Daniel was now never a scientist but an artist, Sun is pregnant although they were not supposed to be able to have children if not for the miracle of The Island, Desmond never meets Penny, yet Kate is still wanted, Jack is still a Doctor (he just has a family now), Locke is still wheel-chair bound, Sayid still a former Republican Guard haunted by his past, etc. If you could claim to make rhyme or reason out of this beyond the arbitrary whims of the writers you'd be a liar. It's not "what if the plane never crashed" it's "what if some of them had mostly different lives except where it's convenient for us to have them be the same".
    This is really fascinating to me.

    So you look on all that with suspicion and lend bad intent to it?
    Is this, like, ISTP tertiary Ni "suspicion of The Man" going off here?

    Yes, all the facts you stated are true, but I just look at it as a story unfolding and take it at face value. There is no standard it has to meet, although you seem to be assuming there is one. You think it seems arbitrary, what changes occurred and what didn't? Well, yes, that's because it's all up to the writers to decide what happens, and they're deciding. Maybe some of the elements were chosen to be completely new, maybe some were chosen out of convenience.

    I suppose you are saying that the two lines should have been identical until the point of separation? Well, should they have been? It's not a bad point to make, but we don't know that. The past has changed, when the bomb went off. It affected more than a "reboot" ... there was a few decades between the bomb incident and the present time, and we don't know what got changed.

    I guess I focus on the inconsistencies that are immediately obvious and have to be dealt with, while things that are still unsure or clouded in mystery I can easily set aside.... because I'm not sure yet if it's an inconsistency or if it's merely something I don't know. You seem to feel as if you know what "should have happened" and it must be ineptitude driving it; I can't make that determination yet, so I suspend judgment.

    So now lets look at Desmond realizing "something is up" once he starts pursuing Penny, why does Penny's mother discourage him and offer the "you don't know what you're doing" warning when there's no fucking way she should have any idea about the alternative time line what so ever?
    Who says?
    This, again, is you trying to assume you know everything already.

    You could be right.
    There could also be things you don't understand about the time split and Daniel's mom that will help reconcile this for you in the future.

    See what I mean?
    I see a huge S vs N conflict here, I just see various possibilities in play and I'm going to wait and suspend belief on the ones I can't answer yet. But if you only have one way of approaching it, and they're at loggerheads with it, I suppose I can see why you are critical...

    What about Daniel just mysteriously deciding to tell him about the formula and it's implications? How does Daniel the artist even grasp the implications of the formula? It's been posited that near death is what gives them realization of the alternate time line, but he just one day wrote this formula and had a scientist friend tell him what it meant and figures he must have already detonated a neutron bomb? Really? I could go on and on and on...
    You could, but it would be redundant.
    The same mechanism is driving your discontent.

    Edit: While I'm at it, when they go in to Rico's back story, The Man in Black tries to get him to kill Jacob, but when he tries Jacob goes all Jet Li on him, disarms him, and kicks his ass. Yet when Ben kills him, he never attempts to defend himself, he's all "don't do this, you don't have to do this"?!?! GTFOH!!!
    Again, yes, I noticed this. I'm curious to see why things changed over 140 years. You really need to think outside the box, though. Scenarios like amazingly common in our culture. Think about the whole "Jesus" thing, for example, probably the most common -- was he a victim or was his execution part of his plan? Believers say he allowed himself to die because it served his end goal (resurrection and salvation of the world).

    Likewise, did Jacob plan this? Did he merely allow it? Why or why not? He seemed surprised when Ben killed him ("I was hoping you were better" or something to that effect, he said about it later in ghost form). Right there, you have him thinking that Ben would rise to the occasion and didn't... so maybe he just misplayed his hand... although at the same time, he really put Ben in a vise with his response to Ben's obvious disillusionment, jabbing him when he didn't have to. So... not sure yet.

    So come on, stretch a little. Is this an inconsistency, or was Jacob not thinking 1864 was a good time to die, but the time was right in 2005-6 or whenever it was? We also see it was the first time the Man in Black tried to have Jacob killed, so Jacob had no idea who Ricardo was or why he was sneaking up on him. In our current time, the Game was far more apparent, and we've already seen that Jacob prefers not to sully another person's choice. Instead of a stranger trying to murder him (which is just an act of violence), now Jacob saw it as a moral dilemma for the potential murderer... and we know for certain that Jacob believes that people can rise above evil choices, while the Man in Black believes that power corrupts and people will fall into their baser desires; Jacob has been working to prove the MIB wrong for decades and "win" the game of moral Go/Backgammon they've been playing.

    So yeah, I easily see a potential thread where Jacob's past action -- as inexplicable as it seems to you -- might actually be consistent. I just don't know yet, and I won't know until more information is revealed, so I don't pass judgment and in the meanwhile I treat it as if it is consistent, to enjoy the show and also to give the writers a chance to spin their tale and prove their moxie before I would derail it.

    Which leads back to my first mostly jesting post in this thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Oh dear.
    You didn't understand any of it, did you?
    You might not have.
    I'm not sure, yet, that I have either.
    I just see through-roads, so I have a "wait and see" attitude.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #56
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    This is why I tried to avoid going into detail, I really don't wish to debate it back and forth. But for instance you say the past was changed, what about the past being changed should effect Suns fertility? Or Jack having a family? Or Sawyer deciding to be a cop (they simply offer, I made one choice instead of the other while keeping everything else the same.)? Or Ben not making it to the island? How come it didn't effect Hurley winning the lottery, or Locke being in a wheelchair? You're assuming some sort of plausible answer will be provided. Based on the track record of the show, I very much doubt it.

    The standard is my own. As I stated before, IMO good fiction creates a world with its own rules then abides by it. Lost doesn't meet this standard.

    Which brings me back to my original premise: Millions of people such as yourself didn't mind, and stuck with the show. Likewise millions of people such a myself did mind and stopped watching at some point. I don't knock anyone who didn't mind, but I happened to mind. No biggie. I'm just stating my POV, not condemning yours or anyone else for that matter. It's only entertainment.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  7. #57
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    This is why I tried to avoid going into detail, I really don't wish to debate it back and forth.
    me either, honestly. Too much detail, I have too much other stuff to do.

    But I figured one exchange, to establish the reasoning from both ends, was good.

    But for instance you say the past was changed, what about the past being changed should effect Suns fertility? Or Jack having a family? Or Sawyer deciding to be a cop (they simply offer, I made one choice instead of the other while keeping everything else the same.)? Or Ben not making it to the island? How come it didn't effect Hurley winning the lottery, or Locke being in a wheelchair? You're assuming some sort of plausible answer will be provided. Based on the track record of the show, I very much doubt it.
    That's fine.

    I see it as a convenience and an exploration. It could happen, it might not have happened, but in the show it did happen, and it didn't bother me. Maybe I also view the show on a different level, with different priorities, than you do. I see it far more as a morality play and character drama, than as a sequence of factual details that have to conform. It's more important to explore who the characters are, who they might become, stretch the limits of their moral and psychological centers to more clearly discover and clarify their natures. This is borne out apparently by the whole thing being little more than an exercise in finding a replace for Jacob, a moral bulwark against some cosmic evil.

    See what I mean? In that context, the show is actually serving its purposes. The details you fuss about (to me) are not nearly as important anyway.

    The standard is my own. As I stated before, IMO good fiction creates a world with its own rules then abides by it. Lost doesn't meet this standard... to me.
    Fixed.

    Which brings me back to my original premise: Millions of people such as yourself didn't mind, and stuck with the show. Likewise millions of people such a myself did mind and stopped watching at some point. I don't knock anyone who didn't mind, but I happened to mind. No biggie. I'm just stating my POV, not condemning yours or anyone else for that matter. It's only entertainment.
    If that was the case, we wouldn't have argued. Yes, it's entertainment; but yes, it also is a butting of heads of worldviews... just like the Island, coincidentally. I'm denying something you perceive as real, and vice versa. So it can lead to some sparring.

    But in the end, really, yes, it's a TV show... and I still have a nice butt ... so all is good.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #58
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    If that was the case, we wouldn't have argued. Yes, it's entertainment; but yes, it also is a butting of heads of worldviews... just like the Island, coincidentally. I'm denying something you perceive as real, and vice versa. So it can lead to some sparring.
    Actually I'm not arguing, you guys are. I'm not positing that I'm right and therefore you all are wrong. I'm saying, I see what's going on and it doesn't work for me, but if it works for you that's just fine. You're denying my perception, I'm accepting yours and asserting my right to hold my own.

    But in the end, really, yes, it's a TV show... and I still have a nice butt ... so all is good.
    Yes.

    Definitely.

    Indeed.

    Edit: btw, to say something doesn't meet a personal standard, then say "to me" is redundant. Just saying..
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  9. #59
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    Actually I'm not arguing, you guys are. I'm not positing that I'm right and therefore you all are wrong. I'm saying, I see what's going on and it doesn't work for me, but if it works for you that's just fine. You're denying my perception, I'm accepting yours and asserting my right to hold my own.
    I'm reading what you say, how you say it, and what is insinuated by it. The way people set their feet in a discussion and what they respond to, don't respond to, and how they respond to it is all indicators of stance and purpose to me. Specific content itself (i.e., the specific words and stated ideas) is just one factor.


    Edit: btw, to say something doesn't meet a personal standard, then say "to me" is redundant. Just saying..
    lol... To me, when you don't specify, you're insisting that your view is a universal standard -- "this is just how it is!"

    Anyway, now it sounds like we're both on the same page?

    EDIT: Note I inadvertently used the phrase "to me" twice in this post alone. Yes, I specify... it's part of qualifying things, to me. DARN, THREE TIMES!!! Arrrgg!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    But there are TONS of inconsistencies. You don't see them? You need me to spell it out for you? Fine. You want inconsistencies? I'll give you inconsistencies.
    For those who are not up to date with the show spoilers alert:

    Lets just take the sideways flashes. It's supposed to be the "what if the plane never crashed" world. But look at all of the huge differences. Sawyer is a cop not a conman, Ben never gets to The Island, The Daniel was now never a scientist but an artist, Sun is pregnant although they were not supposed to be able to have children if not for the miracle of The Island, Desmond never meets Penny, yet Kate is still wanted, Jack is still a Doctor (he just has a family now), Locke is still wheel-chair bound, Sayid still a former Republican Guard haunted by his past, etc. If you could claim to make rhyme or reason out of this beyond the arbitrary whims of the writers you'd be a liar. It's not "what if the plane never crashed" it's "what if some of them had mostly different lives except where it's convenient for us to have them be the same".

    So now lets look at Desmond realizing "something is up" once he starts pursuing Penny, why does Penny's mother discourage him and offer the "you don't know what you're doing" warning when there's no fucking way she should have any idea about the alternative time line what so ever? What about Daniel just mysteriously deciding to tell him about the formula and it's implications? How does Daniel the artist even grasp the implications of the formula? It's been posited that near death is what gives them realization of the alternate time line, but he just one day wrote this formula and had a scientist friend tell him what it meant and figures he must have already detonated a neutron bomb? Really?

    I could go on and on and on...

    Edit: While I'm at it, when they go in to Rico's back story, The Man in Black tries to get him to kill Jacob, but when he tries Jacob goes all Jet Li on him, disarms him, and kicks his ass. Yet when Ben kills him, he never attempts to defend himself, he's all "don't do this, you don't have to do this"?!?! GTFOH!!!
    Wow, no wonder you feel the way you do. You really are "lost"!

    1) the sideways flashes are about a world where the bomb exploded. So that timeline starts in 1977. All kind of events could explain why people lived out their lives differently from that point. The obvious one is Jacob is no longer watching out for them, probably no longer subtly manipulating them. They could explain every detail of why Sawyer became a cop, or Sun can get pregnant, but that would take another season. Complaining that these changes are just the writers' whim is kinda absurd, considering their lives at the start of the show were the whim of the writers then too.

    2) It's not Penny's mom - it's Faraday's mother Eloise (sp?). She knows a lot and hasn't told us. Back when Desmond was trapped back in the past after he blew up the hatch, who set him down on a park bench and knew exactly what was going on? I'll give you a hint: she had gray hair!

    3) We don't know Jacob's motives or ultimate plan. Not knowing doesn't make his actions allowing Ben to kill him inconsistent. We just don't know them.

    In conclusion, I don't think the problem is inconsistencies. I think you just dislike the form of the show. It's a big, sprawling show where every little detail will NOT be wrapped up with a bow. It is not clockwork precision. I just think you want a different kind of show.

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