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  1. #261
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ...because at a certain point, explaining something mystical demystifies it
    While I agree with that statement, there's a balance required, no? At a certain point it's a cop-out and a form of patronization. "Oh you silly fans, you need everything explained? You can't just accept on faith that us writers know what's best for you?"

    My opinion here is at least ABC laughs all the way to the bank.

    ANYHOO, I am not out for battle, just my thoughts.

    I respect that a lot of people actively enjoyed the show.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
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    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #262
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    We can't know the writer's motivations, but I think you're looking at this in the worst possible light. You could be correct, but personally, their motivations don't matter to me. Watching the show was my choice. They owe me nothing.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #263
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ not the worst possible light

    I am not trying to diss anyone here for liking the show. Just ... a feeling, and of course, being subjective, hard to substantiate.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #264
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I'm more and more satisfied with this ending as time goes by (unlike the BSG ending which I was initially very satisfied with and then became less so, but still not enough to say DISsatisfied). Haters gonna hate.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #265
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    But wait, there's more!

    Damon Lindelof (creator/producer) back in 2008:
    Ok...his brain must work very differently from mine, because - using his example - I actually enjoyed "the Force" more when a pseudo-realistic interpretation/explanation was given.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Ok...his brain must work very differently from mine, because - using his example - I actually enjoyed "the Force" more when a pseudo-realistic interpretation/explanation was given.
    Eww!

    That's almost universally loathed by Star Wars geeks (myself included).

  7. #267
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Time is a delicate mistress.

  8. #268
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Eww!

    That's almost universally loathed by Star Wars geeks (myself included).
    It pretty much permanently ruined the series for me. I mean, who needs Jedi crap anymore? Just do a blood test on people to see if they're gifted; give them an innoculation to kill their Force powers forever; and make the little buggers increase if you want more power. Boring and stupid... but what do we expect from a guy who sees the rolling visual scene cut as a viable dramatic element? His dramatic arcs are painfully flat and his dialogue accredited to be some of the worst in the 80-90-year history of spoken cinema.

    Where Lucas excelled was in art direction and effects and recognizing artistic talent in his workers; but his ego prevented him from actually allowing decent writers and directors to take over the story chores. He pretty much ruined his own creation, in my mind, although lots of visually oriented SP types love the textural and visual stimulation of his cinematic works.

    It's telling when outsiders get a license to your material and create far more powerful narratives with it (aka SWKOTOR 1&2).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jen View Post
    I'm surprised someone wasted that much time cutting all that together. That's a lot of work to simply bitch about something obvious.

    Some of those threads were thrown out and never went anywhere. That's part of the creative writing process (as I described earlier). Some might have even been false starts or even "glitches" because they moved in a different direction later.

    Otherwise, many of the questions are irrelevant ones in regards to the main thrust of the show, so they never need to be answered... just like, if we did a video montage of someone's life upon their death, there would be many questions that would seem perplexing and never be answered. That's just reality. Things get dropped, and some things go unexplained. This is why some people get frustrated over "things in life that make no sense." Some things will never make sense, and we'll never draw connections to explain them.

    But we've had this discussion before too. Either you think it's stupid or you see the reasoning behind the approach that was taken. It's personal preference. Not much more to say. If it didn't work for you, then it didn't work for you.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #269
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    Note: this is allegedly from someone at Bad Robot (a writer it seems). If true, now I finally get what Ben meant about how he thought he was summoning the monster but the monster was actually summoning him:

    Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John's questions about Dharma and the "pointless breadcrumbs" that really, weren't so pointless ...

    First ...
    The Island:

    It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

    Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

    Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

    Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.

    Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

    In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...

    Now...

    Sideways World:

    Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

    The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

    It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

    How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

    But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

    They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

    A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

    But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

    For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

    In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.

  10. #270
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    I loved this, Mac. Thanks for posting it.

    And, before I forget...Kudos for nailing it about Hurley!
    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay one invincible summer."
    ~~~~
    A Christian's life may be the only Bible some people ever read.
    ~~~~
    "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them" Maya Angelou.
    ~~~~
    I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ" Gandhi
    ~~~~

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