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  1. #241
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Home from work early ...

    No more white text... if you don't want to be spoiled, you shouldn't be reading this far anyway...

    I think that the whole flash-sideways purgatory thing wasn't just purgatory -- it was *Jack's* purgatory - perhaps the whole flash-sideways and church bit was Jack's passage through the "pearly gates" if you're into that sort of thing. It was definitely centered on Jack, and not so much on the others -- everyone else went in the front of the church, Jack in the back, etc.

    Christian told us straight up that some of the folks in the church had died before Jack did (duh), but that some died "long after" he did. And yet every single one of them was aged, and was with, the people whom they were closest to at the time of Jack's death, or as Jack would have seen them at that time.

    We know (or at least can be pretty certain) that Sawyer, Kate, Claire, Lapidus (the pilot), Miles, and Richard made it off of the island and survived Jack. We know that Hurley and Ben (and likely Rose and Bernard) survived Jack (probably by a long time, in Hurley and Ben's case) on the island. Some of those were in the church, some were not (I didn't notice Lapidus, Miles, or Richard there). But those who survived Jack and were in the church (Hurley, Claire, Kate, Sawyer) were there with those they were close to in Jack's mind... I doubt that Claire, Sawyer, or Kate died alone, for instance. But Claire was with Charlie, Sawyer was with Juliet, and Kate was with Jack himself. Dead people who yet were central in their minds in Jack's eye.

    At the very end of the show, the bright light came into the church at basically the same time that we saw Jack's eye close in the bamboo field -- Jack's actual ascent into heaven? We know that the whole church scene was pretty much set outside of time (Christian told us that, too) -- could the entire flash-sideways have taken place in the instant when Jack lost consciousness? Who wants to go to heaven alone? The alternate reality "timeline" got all of the people who were closest to Jack there with him, as happy as they could be (from Jack's perspective, including with those they loved -- providing a reason for the presence of people like Shannon (with Sayid)) when the end came. At the end, Jack and his friends (but not Ben) all go into the light together.

    Total speculation, of course. It's just as (if not more) likely the church was simply packed with characters the writers thought the audience liked and could be retained by ABC for the finale. But anyway, that's what the end was, for me -- Jack wasn't my favorite character on the show, but the ending really seemed more about him than anything.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #242
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Kelric's first post pretty much said it all IMO. It seems fairly straightforward plot-wise (I don't think it meant they all died in the original crash, just that they all died at different times and met in the sideways reality, outside of time, on their way to the "real" afterlife), and while it doesn't answer all the questions that had built up over 6 years I'm pretty satisfied with it overall. Not everything needs to be explained.

    I tend to think the sideways reality was not just for Jack, but that we saw Jack's version of it since we saw him die.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #243
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It reminds me of dissecting literature ... trying to ascertain what the writer's message was, what was the symbolism etc. Sometimes sitting there in classes I would imagine the writer rolling their eyes at the imaginative stuff we all cooked up that was never a part of the vision; the author of each work could never even imagine that people centuries later would misconstrue their message so.
    I agree with that.

    Here though is almost the opposite - the writer's seemed to deliberately obfuscate their message, to make the series last on TV as long as possible. It bugs me and I guess I need to get that off my chest.
    As a writer, I disagree. But different strokes for different folks, we've had that discussion before.

    So, nuff LOSTIE stuff for me. Not going to buy the DVD's for sure!
    np -- You can borrow mine!

    Pretty much Kelric's posts capture my view of things too, I don't feel like rehashing it. Some of what was going on was vague, but it does seem we had a marker on Jack's death, and Hurley/Ben sort of confirmed in dialog at the church that they had done a duo thing on the Island for a significant amount of time, and that Kate, Sawyer, and the others got off the island. Everyone dies, and in eternity every moment was Now... so they could all appear together in Jack's version of the afterlife.

    Cute nod to "Christian Shepherd" as Jack's dad and sort of spirit mentor to lead him ahead ("Is that name for real?" someone basically said during the episode).

    I don't mind it being about Jack, since he was arguably the dominant character in the series -- established in Season #1, then he took a somewhat declining role but he and Locke went head to head as the faction leaders, then he was the one who felt the compulsion to go back to the Island when a few managed to escape. I think he might have also been potentially the one who changed the most; he was one of the most intense characters to start with, and ended up completely flipping and taking Locke's role eventually, moving from being tightly wound and clutching hard to keep what control he had on anything in life, to .... letting go. Which had been his message to Locke in the sideways timeline, and what Locke was hinting at in that he hoped someone could do for Jack what Jack had done for him. He opened the series, it was all viewed through his eyes at the very beginning, and so it ended with him as well -- funnel in, funnel out, that's the writing outline here.

    IN any case, I feel like the strength of Lost came mostly through the relationships among the characters, and the ending -- while rationally there were unanswered questions -- where we saw the closure was in the emotional/relational arcs. Everyone who had been separated was brought back together, characters who normally were enemies became united, and in the end it was "everyone is together" and it gave a sense of emotional wholeness. That's the paradigm I think offers the best sense of satisfaction through which to view the finale in. I can definitely say it's the people and characters I'm going to miss, even if some of the mysteries were intriguing. It's always the people who linger, and always the people we grieve.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #244
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    After watching the finale, I'm so so glad that I never caught on to watching the show. It was somewhat entertaining, though.
    -end of thread-

  5. #245
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Hmm so the was a real plane crash and survivors, some got off the island and regardless if they died on the island or no there was a reunion of sorts with their spirits in a timeless alternate reality/purgatory prior to moving into heaven/afterlife.

    Jack never had a kid except in a sideways reality/purgatory/limbo? Gotta admit one would have mixed feeling about moving into the final stage of the afterlife if they have to abandon a kid they had (not on earth) but in purgatory.

    For TV season final I thought it was pretty good...im glad they didn't try and put all the unanswered questions together (as they were just making a lot of shit up as they went along for most of the series) and despite myself a couple of tears slipped out my eye. Thats me cant cry at a funeral but will get all sappy watching a melodramatic TV show ending.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
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  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Jack never had a kid except in a sideways reality/purgatory/limbo? Gotta admit one would have mixed feeling about moving into the final stage of the afterlife if they have to abandon a kid they had (not on earth) but in purgatory.
    Oh yeah, that was one of the cooler things. Completely negated the kid's entire existence! That's a bit of a mindfuck.

  7. #247
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Jezebel has had some great Lost recaps, and I especially liked the one for the finale:

    Lost Finale Recap: Case Closed

    "After Hurley was inducted into the secret society of Island protectors, Jack replaced the butt plug and saved the world. But he also saved everyone else on the Island, something for which he always had a boner. And thus, he saved himself."
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  8. #248
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Hmm so the was a real plane crash and survivors, some got off the island and regardless if they died on the island or no there was a reunion of sorts with their spirits in a timeless alternate reality/purgatory prior to moving into heaven/afterlife.
    Basically.

    All the Island shit happened, or at least it happened to Jack, except that Season 6 "sideways" was the group-fabricated reality where they could all meet up together. What's confusing for people is that it started running at the beginning of Season 6, as if it were unfolding simultaneously with the chronological Island events of Season 6... but it wasn't. It was unfolding in the timeless Now instead.

    It was a bit confusing as to whether the entire series was imagined or not by Jack, so there were clues to help clarify -- including what CHristian said to Jack in the church, and Jack looking up in the sky and seeing the plane leave. So we know that's an actual factoid -- the plane existed and it got away, and at least some of the six people onboard survived for a good long time. Same thing with Hurley and Ben, their conversation at the church indicated a long working relationship caring for the island; we just don't know what resulted in them in eventually stepping down. But in any case, it suggests that the island existed and Jack did indeed momentarily become its protector.

    In any case, in the eternal Now, there is no time; it didn't matter When they died, just that at some point they all would have, and this was their meeting spot in order to rejoin because the bonds they had developed over their time on the island were so strong they wanted to be together again.

    Jack never had a kid except in a sideways reality/purgatory/limbo? Gotta admit one would have mixed feeling about moving into the final stage of the afterlife if they have to abandon a kid they had (not on earth) but in purgatory.
    I went to Jezebel's page where Ivy linked and she had this to say, which actually matched what I was thinking:

    I know that some fans were still confused. Like, why would Jack have a son in the sideways universe? My theory is that the baggage that Jack took with him to the sideways universe were his daddy issues (a common and major theme of Lost). He sorta took care of the needing to fix things thing back when he was still alive. His major issue, in his death cycle, was his relationship with his father. Many people say that when you have your own children, you begin to heal from your own childhood and your issues with how you were raised. (Or at least, that's what Madonna told Oprah after she had Lourdes.) But it makes sense. Once you become a parent, you begin to have a better understanding of what your parents went through. You learn to forgive them of their mistakes and (hopefully) rectify them by putting an end to certain patterns and cycles. And it was at this point—when he found the baggage he'd brought on that second Oceanic flight—that Jack finally let go.
    I think that pretty much says it. If you watch Jack's relationship with his son unfold, I was thinking throughout the season that I was watching him heal from his "Dad wounds" -- where his dad had been in his role and he had been in David's role -- and in this way he was finding healing and redemption, not just creating the relationship he wished he would have had with Christian but also getting a whole new perspective on his own father that would allow him to forgive him for his seeming failures as a parent and also realize how he had sometimes failed as a son.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #249
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think that pretty much says it. If you watch Jack's relationship with his son unfold, I was thinking throughout the season that I was watching him heal from his "Dad wounds" -- where his dad had been in his role and he had been in David's role -- and in this way he was finding healing and redemption, not just creating the relationship he wished he would have had with Christian but also getting a whole new perspective on his own father that would allow him to forgive him for his seeming failures as a parent and also realize how he had sometimes failed as a son.
    I share this understanding and thus why it was important for Locke to tell Jack that Jack did not have a son.

    Similar to freudian dream analysis on how our unconscious works out a lot of our challenges via dreams. The ending was like each individual awakening from the dream of the "sideways" world.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Jezebel has had some great Lost recaps, and I especially liked the one for the finale:

    Lost Finale Recap: Case Closed
    Awesome link, written better than I could.

    Reposting my fave part:

    During the credits, we saw the wreckage from the original Oceanic 815 on the beach. And some footprints. I don't think it had any meaning other than that: a footprint. It symbolized that they were there.

    Because a part of the shared human experience—which is basically what the entire show boiled down to—is that we want to leave our mark, so that people know that we'd been here. (I mean, that was the point of all the different shit, like the statue, and hieroglyphs and the empty Dharma barracks. They were all just footprints of the people who had been on the Island before.) And a large part of that, of leaving a footprint, or a mark, is to establish a basic need: To know that we matter.

    This show was fucking awesome.

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