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  1. #11
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Why?

    It's possible you could make a better-than-the-average-player bot, but the good players will exploit the fact that some proportion of players are bots and win more often.
    Not to mention bots won't be able to adapt to changing trends in play styles without being reprogrammed routinely.

    There's no one perfect strategy for this game; the best strategy just depends on what the average opponent is doing, which is already changing quickly...for instance, a lot of players are 4-betting after opening the button because 3-betting open button raises from the blinds is becoming standard.

    Nocap, you're oversimplifying the format.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #12
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    evolutionary algorithms.

  3. #13
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Get on that!
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #14
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Someone will. You're oversimplifying AI if you think bots will happen and that shit won't, son!

  5. #15
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Why?

    It's possible you could make a better-than-the-average-player bot, but the good players will exploit the fact that some proportion of players are bots and win more often.
    you can only exploit the bot if you know it's a bot.
    with rush poker, it's completely anonymous.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Not to mention bots won't be able to adapt to changing trends in play styles without being reprogrammed routinely.

    There's no one perfect strategy for this game; the best strategy just depends on what the average opponent is doing
    and you say that a human can do that better than a computer?

    Nocap, you're oversimplifying the format.
    i'm not, but i realize that i've burst your bubble so i don't blame you for retaliating this way.


    look at it this way: because it's an enclosed group of players with a retroactively measured state of play, the bot can make EV decisions based on those statistics.
    sure, your'e going to lose sometimes, but as long as your bot plays within a safe EV and you play a long enough session, you will come out ahead, unless the deck is running exceptionally hot for everyone except your bot, in which case your bot will lose a buy in or two before going on tilt and short-circuiting.

    this game is even more mathematically beatable than an ordinary ring game. since rush poker calculates the statistics of everyone and not just one players at your table, you have an enormous sample size, and so the math is more reliable. you wouldn't even have to program perfect or even decent theory.

    you can figure about how tight/loose the play pool is by the avg. plr/flp.
    it's obviously counting hands that never go to a flop, because the minimum percentage of players at a table to see a flop can be is 22%
    [2/9 = 0.22]
    if it's less than 22%, then naturally, you're going to have a pretty tight game. people aren't defending their blinds etc.
    i'm looking right now and i see two pools with 19% plr/flp. that means most hands never even see a flop, and 3+ way flops are a rarity.
    i'm also looking at a pool with a 30% plr/flp. that means more often than not, the hand not only sees a flop, but sees more than just a limper and the big blind. that's going to be a really loose game.
    i don't know how you'd figure out the average hand range based on that, but someone can, and they will.

    if you wanna get really fancy, you could look at the average pot size, and figure how many of the pots are being raised/limped.
    though that has no relevance to the pool's hand selection and can't help it to calculate its card's equity vs. the average hand in the pool, it can help to determine which pots it wants to enter.

    and the thing sw said about 3betting - well you can just program the bot not to get involved in marginal situations with potentially high cost. after all, a few unlucky reraised pots can be devastating to stack size and ruin hours of work.
    what i mean is, as long as your bot is playing with such general information, small ball will be key. a slow trickle - like the casinos love.

    not to mention, your HUD is still going to work. sure, it will be useless for a while, but after a enough long sessions, you're going to be able to identify the regulars and pin their play.

    Not to mention bots won't be able to adapt to changing trends in play styles without being reprogrammed routinely.
    the only way i know how to respond to this is "you'd be surprised"

    the bot has it both ways in this game, as long as you make sure to play long sessions to make up for the losses inevitable to something using such broad calculation.

    the biggest thing it boils down to is this: it will be hard, but bigger feats have been accomplished. and as long as people can exploit mathematics they will. it's not just that it works - it's fun.
    we fukin won boys

  6. #16
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    that sounds really homosexual. i like to play poker and figure people out, then play mindgames. this makes that impossible.
    1+1=3 OMFG

  7. #17
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Nocap:

    Are the statistics given by Full Tilt (% of players per flop, average pot size, etc.) enough to derive a consistently winning strategy? If not, the bot would have no source of statistics to adapt to changes in.

    I guess more than anything this depends on quality of opponents, but I imagine FT has methods of looking for bots. You can't just run the bot from the same IP address 24/7, for instance, or they'll pick up on the fact that you're not really human.

    I'm sure dedicated bot programmers will find ways to circumvent that, but even if bots do win, they won't prevent the better players in the pool from also winning, so I'm not too worried about it.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #18
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Nocap:

    Are the statistics given by Full Tilt (% of players per flop, average pot size, etc.) enough to derive a consistently winning strategy? If not, the bot would have no source of statistics to adapt to changes in.
    yes. they are. i know enough about inference on mathematics and averages to say conclusively that a consistent winning strategy can be derived from that single ratio.


    I guess more than anything this depends on quality of opponents, but I imagine FT has methods of looking for bots. You can't just run the bot from the same IP address 24/7, for instance, or they'll pick up on the fact that you're not really human.
    uh... no shit. for arguments sake, does it really escape you that programmers can think of that themselves and remedy it with only a few lines of code?

    I'm sure dedicated bot programmers will find ways to circumvent that, but even if bots do win, they won't prevent the better players in the pool from also winning, so I'm not too worried about it.
    naturally. but they will undermine the winnings of the players.
    we fukin won boys

  9. #19
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocap View Post
    naturally. but they will undermine the winnings of the players.
    Sure, but no moreso than other winning players.

    Also, wouldn't bot programmers use their winning bots in the highest stakes available (which for Rush is currently 1/2)? You should be able to avoid the bots in this case by simply playing levels lower than the highest ones available.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #20
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Sure, but no moreso than other winning players.
    this is getting really speculative.

    Also, wouldn't bot programmers use their winning bots in the highest stakes available (which for Rush is currently 1/2)? You should be able to avoid the bots in this case by simply playing levels lower than the highest ones available.
    answering this requires more knowledge of poker and programming than i have.

    again, getting speculative.
    we fukin won boys

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