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  1. #241
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Just saying, you are of course free to like/dislike whatever you want; that is all opinion. It's just there's a difference between "I dislike it" and "It's bad."

    For instance, I don't really like a lot of Led Zeppelin material, but they were an incredible band. To say that they were doing a bad job simply because I don't enjoy that much of what they did would be ignorant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Sim plays his little guitar and gives people music lessons rather than deliver pizza. (Delivering pizza was his old job.)
    And because he plays his little guitar and gives music lessons, he thinks it gives him the right to tell off everyone in this thread.
    If you start a thread on pizza, he will 'slap you around' on that topic as well.
    After all, he is an "expert" in music and pizza.
    Bet you don't know how many pepperonis go on a large pizza!
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #242
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I didn't really feel like explaining at the time, but okay, here you go.

    You're correct that there's no such thing as truly objective criticism of any art. We cannot actually prove empirically that any given art is good or bad, as these are technically subjective value judgments.

    However, we can evaluate it with some degree of objectivity, even if not total objectivity, based on a number of different factors, including but not limited to:

    --What the artist intended to accomplish with the work and how well that goal was achieved
    --How many people enjoyed it
    --How it compares to similar artists from the same genre during the same time period
    --How much innovation/originality the work represented during its time
    --The collective opinions of people who have put a lot of study into that area of art

    etc. etc...so while we can't really show an empirical test to "prove" that, say, I'm a better painter than Rembrandt, if I run around claiming that I am, it's generally understood that I'm a moron.

    When you get to really high levels of skill it becomes harder to judge objectively, because comparisons come down to just stylistic differences. It's hard to say whether Eric Clapton or Pat Metheney is a better guitarist, for instance, as both are masters of their respective styles.

    It's not hard to say, however, that both of them are clearly superior to me, and if I claimed to be better than either, we can say with some degree of objectivity (though not total objectivity) that I'm wrong. Technically we can't show quantifiable evidence that Clapton is a better guitarist than me, but it's generally understood by anyone who has any idea what he's talking about that he obviously is.

    Make sense?

    This is the attitude I try to bring all artistic criticism. Someone may TRULY believe that Backstreet Boys are better than The Beatles, but we should be able to say they are wrong. Now, are The Beatles better than Bach? William F. Buckley would have said no, but people can make legitimate arguments either way. Or that it is impossible to decide fairly, given the radically different timeframes, aims, and media in which they worked.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #243
    Earth Exalted Thursday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TickTock View Post
    The Beatles. Give me the Stones any day.
    damn skippy.
    I N V I C T U S

  4. #244
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Bet you don't know how many pepperonis go on a large pizza!
    if I'm making it the answer is "the entire package"

    I like pepperoni
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #245
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Bet you don't know how many pepperonis go on a large pizza!
    As many as I desire. Lol.

  6. #246
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I didn't really feel like explaining at the time, but okay, here you go.

    You're correct that there's no such thing as truly objective criticism of any art. We cannot actually prove empirically that any given art is good or bad, as these are technically subjective value judgments.

    However, we can evaluate it with some degree of objectivity, even if not total objectivity, based on a number of different factors, including but not limited to:

    --What the artist intended to accomplish with the work and how well that goal was achieved
    --How many people enjoyed it
    --How it compares to similar artists from the same genre during the same time period
    --How much innovation/originality the work represented during its time
    --The collective opinions of people who have put a lot of study into that area of art

    etc. etc...so while we can't really show an empirical test to "prove" that, say, I'm a better painter than Rembrandt, if I run around claiming that I am, it's generally understood that I'm a moron.

    When you get to really high levels of skill it becomes harder to judge objectively, because comparisons come down to just stylistic differences. It's hard to say whether Eric Clapton or Pat Metheney is a better guitarist, for instance, as both are masters of their respective styles.

    It's not hard to say, however, that both of them are clearly superior to me, and if I claimed to be better than either, we can say with some degree of objectivity (though not total objectivity) that I'm wrong. Technically we can't show quantifiable evidence that Clapton is a better guitarist than me, but it's generally understood by anyone who has any idea what he's talking about that he obviously is.

    Make sense?
    Yes it does! Thank you Sim - I very much appreciated the explanation! See how much nicer and more civilized that was than just saying "fail" and leaving it at that?

    Yeah, it totally makes sense, but at the same time, most people don't use that sort of criteria when they judge music, from my experience. If those qualifications were universally used and understood, I would agree with you. But at the same time, unless you actually analyze the music you listen to (which most people don't), you're probably going to end up saying "I like ____ music because it's awesome and makes me feel happy/profound/insert-emotion-here." Which, of course, is not even remotely objective.

    Also, the fact that most musicians that one would consider overrated still do very, very well on that scale is a sign that it's very hard to be objective on a topic such as this one. In fact, I'm pretty much unable to come up with an overrated musician based on your scale, partially because I'd have to ignore the popularity and critical-adoration parts of it, and partially because, if the musician/band was so adored by critics as to be "overrated", they were probably influential, even if they sucked.

    Example: The Sex Pistols. They were not a very good band in my opinion, because they were bad musicians (couldn't play their instruments at all), their songs all sound like they took five minutes to write, and their were many other punk bands of the time that were better musicians/songwriters than them. However, since they were so hyped/adored, they were influential, and people were inspired by them. Also, to address the final criterion, their intent was to rock out, and that they did.

    I'm derailing the thread a little... but I'm curious as to what musician/band you would list that fits all your criteria.

    p.s.
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Just saying, you are of course free to like/dislike whatever you want; that is all opinion. It's just there's a difference between "I dislike it" and "It's bad."
    There's absolutely a difference! I couldn't agree more. It bugs me when people do that.
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  7. #247
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Yes it does! Thank you Sim - I very much appreciated the explanation! See how much nicer and more civilized that was than just saying "fail" and leaving it at that?

    Yeah, it totally makes sense, but at the same time, most people don't use that sort of criteria when they judge music, from my experience. If those qualifications were universally used and understood, I would agree with you. But at the same time, unless you actually analyze the music you listen to (which most people don't), you're probably going to end up saying "I like ____ music because it's awesome and makes me feel happy/profound/insert-emotion-here." Which, of course, is not even remotely objective.
    That's the problem. If you're going to run around saying that some music or artist is overrated or bad, you need to show a reason other than "I don't personally enjoy it." That's my whole point. I realize that most people don't think about art this way, so most people are making a mistake when they think their personal likes and dislikes count as legitimate art criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Also, the fact that most musicians that one would consider overrated still do very, very well on that scale is a sign that it's very hard to be objective on a topic such as this one. In fact, I'm pretty much unable to come up with an overrated musician based on your scale, partially because I'd have to ignore the popularity and critical-adoration parts of it, and partially because, if the musician/band was so adored by critics as to be "overrated", they were probably influential, even if they sucked.
    You just have to have some knowledge of music and the context in which the music you're judging was created. For instance, I once read a review of a jazz record that basically amounted to, "This is boring and it's not moving me so it sucks."

    Well, of course you won't enjoy it if you don't listen to jazz. The reviewer had no background in jazz at all and no idea what to look for in a jazz record, so she judged it according to her personal tastes, which is pointless and nonsensical. A music review isn't about what you enjoy; it's about how the music compares to music created under similar conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Example: The Sex Pistols. They were not a very good band in my opinion, because they were bad musicians (couldn't play their instruments at all), and their songs all sound like they took five minutes to write. However, since they were so hyped/adored, they were influential, and people were inspired by them. Also, to address the final criterion, their intent was to rock out, and that they did.
    The Sex Pistols were probably more culturally than musically influential. I think other similar groups at the time did a much better job of the same style, so I'm not a big Pistols fan, but I do recognize their cultural significance, at least.

    On a technical basis, yes, they sucked at their instruments, but that's not really the point. A lot of great artists had pretty poor technical understanding and still ended up making music that influenced and moved entire generations of musicians and listeners.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I'm derailing the thread a little... but I'm curious as to what musician/band you would list that fits all your criteria.

    p.s.

    There's absolutely a difference! I couldn't agree more. It bugs me when people do that.
    The Beatles are a great example of a band that some people rip on without knowing wtf they're talking about. If you simply don't enjoy pop music, then fine--you have every right to dislike the Beatles. But if you think they were bad, you simply don't know what you're talking about.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #248
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Start a music critique blog, if it bothers you so much.

  9. #249
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Start a music critique blog, if it bothers you so much.
    So rather than complaining about music critique on the internet, I should complain about music critique on the internet?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #250
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Sim seems to be an expert in a lot of things with no room for other opinions. What an amazing man!

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