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  1. #231
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Sim plays his little guitar and gives people music lessons rather than deliver pizza. (Delivering pizza was his old job.)
    And because he plays his little guitar and gives music lessons, he thinks it gives him the right to tell off everyone in this thread.
    If you start a thread on pizza, he will 'slap you around' on that topic as well.
    After all, he is an "expert" in music and pizza.
    But can't you still rationally debate a topic you're an "expert" on? Even if it ends up being condescending, it's still debate.

    So now, a question for Sim: Why be so dismissive instead of showing me how exactly I'm wrong? One notable thing about ESTJs is that if you give them enough evidence to the contrary, or if you simply convince them through the logic of your debate, they'll change their mind, even if it's about something as deep-seated as religion. Therefore, I could easily be convinced of whatever you thought the hole in my debate was...
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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  2. #232
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Dave Matthews Band

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  3. #233
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    Lady Gag Gag

    Who in the hell listens to that crap?
    Me

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  4. #234
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    Bono has become a caricature. It's very depressing and irritating. I can't even watch PBS without him popping up there.

    Michelle Branch (cannot sing for toffee)

    Evanescence (she, like Shakira, sounds as if she's being strangled)


    Kanye West (gets another mention because I can't say it enough)
    No

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  5. #235
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I would like to add Wilco and Vampire Weekend to my previous nominations.
    Pshaw!

    [YOUTUBE=YcaGlJGijj0]Wilco - Outtasite (Outta Mind)[/YOUTUBE]


    [YOUTUBE=bccKotFwzoY]Vampire Weekend - Giving Up the Gun[/YOUTUBE]
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  6. #236
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I was thinking about this the other day, and honestly... John Lennon.

    I love the the Beatles, and they collectively probably are among 10 greatest musicians of the 20th century. Now, some say that the Beatles themselves are over-rated, and with the almost religious status they have, I can see why someone would say that. But they really are awesome, and incredibly influential. Over-rated perhaps, but not the most over-rated...

    But let's look at their solo work.

    They all had successful solo careers. I can't think of any other band where that happened. Of course everyone wants to scoff about Ringo, and I'll just let that go, and say that yeah, aside from the quality of his music, the fact that he didn't write much of his work is a major strike against him in terms of ranking him... so we'll put him in fourth.

    But I may be one of the few people that would then put Lennon's career in third. In the 10 years he got to live after the Beatles, Lennon was the least prolific, and as far as I'm concerned, did lower quality work than George or Paul.

    Wonder Christmastime was in that span... and it's hard to forgive Paul for that, but it was about at the end, '79, so I'll let it slide. More often it's when I listen to much of Lennon's work, it sounds like he just phoned it in. The form too simple, the instrumentation too sparse, the lyrics often sound like an idea which was then never re-polished for musical format. A good example of that is his contraversial song, Woman Is the Nigger of the World. Yeah, I get the idea, but it sounds like he's sort of cramming the lyrics in there, like he never made the effort to turn prose into something melodic.

    And that, of course, is relatively conventional. Then there's all of that garbage that he did thanks to the influence of Yoko Ono. Some people (and they are rare) insist that the stuff Ono did was genius. I never get this avante-garde, performance art stuff, myself. The problem is that it's often so alien that I don't even know what to rate it on, so I'm only left with my visceral response, and that tells me that it sounds like shit.

    As far as technical skill, it's plain to see that George and Paul are both better musicians. They both could play more instruments than John, and they mastered some particular instruments better than John did with any. Ringo is also sadly underappreciated for what a good drummer he actually was.

    Anyhow, what I think is the fact that John earned himself more social and political prominence post-Beatles than the others did, the fact that he seemed so experimental and innovative (even if it was all garbage), and of course the fact that he got shot, are the main reasons he's praised so much now. He is loved as a persona in a way that actually over-shadows his music.

    Again, the Beatles are great, and being the third best of them still makes you a very good musician, so I'm not saying Lennon is bad, and I certainly love what he contributed to that band. But I really don't think he is the genius or the master that it has become so common to say he is.

    Solo John Lennon is definitely overrated.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #237
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post

    Evanescence (she, like Shakira, sounds as if she's being strangled)
    Did you mean to put this one in the 'underrated' section?

    Evanescence, to my recollection, was never really mega popular, even though the music is a lot more beautiful than most top 40 stuff.

    -----

    Also, I think I should remind people here.

    Overrated/=Bad

    It is simply about whether a particular act is more popular than one would expect for the quality of their music and performances.

  8. #238
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    U2

    Nirvana

  9. #239
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    But can't you still rationally debate a topic you're an "expert" on? Even if it ends up being condescending, it's still debate.

    So now, a question for Sim: Why be so dismissive instead of showing me how exactly I'm wrong? One notable thing about ESTJs is that if you give them enough evidence to the contrary, or if you simply convince them through the logic of your debate, they'll change their mind, even if it's about something as deep-seated as religion. Therefore, I could easily be convinced of whatever you thought the hole in my debate was...
    I didn't really feel like explaining at the time, but okay, here you go.

    You're correct that there's no such thing as truly objective criticism of any art. We cannot actually prove empirically that any given art is good or bad, as these are technically subjective value judgments.

    However, we can evaluate it with some degree of objectivity, even if not total objectivity, based on a number of different factors, including but not limited to:

    --What the artist intended to accomplish with the work and how well that goal was achieved
    --How many people enjoyed it
    --How it compares to similar artists from the same genre during the same time period
    --How much innovation/originality the work represented during its time
    --The collective opinions of people who have put a lot of study into that area of art

    etc. etc...so while we can't really show an empirical test to "prove" that, say, I'm a better painter than Rembrandt, if I run around claiming that I am, it's generally understood that I'm a moron.

    When you get to really high levels of skill it becomes harder to judge objectively, because comparisons come down to just stylistic differences. It's hard to say whether Eric Clapton or Pat Metheney is a better guitarist, for instance, as both are masters of their respective styles.

    It's not hard to say, however, that both of them are clearly superior to me, and if I claimed to be better than either, we can say with some degree of objectivity (though not total objectivity) that I'm wrong. Technically we can't show quantifiable evidence that Clapton is a better guitarist than me, but it's generally understood by anyone who has any idea what he's talking about that he obviously is.

    Make sense?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #240
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I tell you with all objectivity that Randy Rhoads is a better guitarist than any of them


    ahem.. no really, i'm with sim somewhat.. although i don't really care if others are subjective. to each their own. with myself though, i tend to judge artists according to their focus/genre/maybe some comparison to a favorite within that genre/style.. something like that.

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