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funny full tilt 6max 10NL texas holdem hand vs. terrible LAG

simulatedworld

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Poker nerds will maybe appreciate this...play at microstakes is hilarious. This guy has raised my big blind from small blind like the last 14 hands in a row, playing VP 50+ and PFR like 35 lol. He's also 2- and 3-barreling numerous hands with total garbage!



Look who thinks he's Gus Hansen (I'm oldgreggbaileys):

Full Tilt Poker Game #14201069265: Table Flavor (6 max) - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:55:49 ET - 2009/08/22
Seat 1: acegy ($2.71)
Seat 2: ShibbenFisk ($7.92)
Seat 3: JOB 7 7-8 ($33.73)
Seat 4: Judetheman ($10)
Seat 5: KimSu65 ($22.14)
Seat 6: oldgreggbaileys ($13.32)
KimSu65 posts the small blind of $0.05
oldgreggbaileys posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to oldgreggbaileys [8s Jd]
acegy folds
ShibbenFisk folds
JOB 7 7-8 folds
JOB 7 7-8 is sitting out
Judetheman folds
KimSu65 raises to $0.30
oldgreggbaileys calls $0.20
*** FLOP *** [9c 2d Qs]
KimSu65 bets $0.60
oldgreggbaileys calls $0.60
*** TURN *** [9c 2d Qs] [Tc]
KimSu65 bets $1.80
oldgreggbaileys calls $1.80
*** RIVER *** [9c 2d Qs Tc] [2s]
KimSu65 bets $19.44, and is all in
oldgreggbaileys calls $10.62, and is all in
Uncalled bet of $8.82 returned to KimSu65
*** SHOW DOWN ***
KimSu65 shows [8h 6s] a pair of Twos
oldgreggbaileys shows [8s Jd] a straight, Queen high
oldgreggbaileys wins the pot ($24.87) with a straight, Queen high

lolz.
 

Haight

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Oddly enough, I like Kim's line better than oldgregg's.

But at those stakes, the thinking is generally, "But it's only [x]-cents."
 

simulatedworld

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Oddly enough, I like Kim's line better than oldgregg's.

But at those stakes, the thinking is generally, "But it's only [x]-cents."

Did you read the specific info on his play? He's playing over half his hands and raising preflop over 35%, and he's also repeatedly shown down total garbage after raising from SB--I know for a fact that he's trying to steal my BB from SB with all kinds of crap. With position in heads up pots like this I'm calling this kind of player with pretty much anything (he's stealing from button well over half the time as well); I'm also floating the flop because his c-bet stat is well over 80 and I can float/steal him a lot.

Also, I apparently have huge implied odds on the gutshot, because I've seen this guy shove in with air on marginal reads at least twice already.

My play is a specific response to his extremely aggressive style. I know there are winning players with these kinds of stats at like 200NL and up, but most people trying to play like superheroes at microstakes are just huge losers.

P.S.,

<10 hands later Kim was down to below $10, after having had over $50 recently. He lost most of it on a hand where he limped UTG with J5s, cold called a 3bet after two people raised behind him (still out of position against both opponents), and then called all in for more than the pot on on a KQT flop with nothing but an OESD (nowhere near necessary odds, and absolutely no fold equity because he called all in.)

I know you're used to higher stakes and all, but come on. This guy is just retarded.
 

Haight

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Sure, but loose-aggressive isn't a losing strategy. But calling a pot bet with a gut shot and convincing yourself that you have "implied odds" is.

If you don't believe me, keep doing that as you move up and tell me how it's working out.

In my humble opinion, you should have shut down after the flop bet. However, he should have shut down after you called the bet. His plan was worse than yours, but you made the first mistake. And you're only viewing it favorably because of the hand result.

Again, just my opinion.
 

simulatedworld

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Sure, but loose-aggressive isn't a losing strategy. But calling a pot bet with a gut shot and convincing yourself that you have "implied odds" is.

If you don't believe me, keep doing that as you move up and tell me how it's working out.

In my humble opinion, you should have shut down after the flop bet. However, he should have shut down after you called the bet. His plan was worse than yours, but you made the first mistake. And you're only viewing it favorably because of the hand result.

Again, just my opinion.


Loose-aggressive *can* be a winning strategy, as I've pointed out; however, the vast majority of players attempting LAG at 10NL are just idiots who think they play much better than they do. I've said about three times now that this was a very unusual and player-specific read and that I'm not normally making these kinds of calls against most players--his HUD stats clearly indicate an extremely wide range here, and while LAG may be a winning style for some, it is clearly NOT for this player.

But as your usertitle says, you obviously aren't reading my posts here, so let's suspend discussion until you decide to bother reading more than every fifth word. Otherwise this feels like kind of a waste of time. It sounds like you're an experienced player who probably has some valuable insights, but I can't take you very seriously if you're just going to skim my posts/ignore crucial details and then ignore me when corrected. This seems to be something you have a habit of doing.
 

Haight

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Wow, such hostility.

I didn't realize that I wasn't supposed to comment on the play. I guess I was just supposed to write, "Fantastic read! Nice play!" And, for whatever it's worth, I read the OP and understand what happened, but that doesn't really matter.

Now that I'm clear, I'll stay away from your self-congratulatory threads.

Sorry about that. Carry on.
 

simulatedworld

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Wow, such hostility.

I didn't realize that I wasn't supposed to comment on the play. I guess I was just supposed to write, "Fantastic read! Nice play!" And, for whatever it's worth, I read the OP and understand what happened, but that doesn't really matter.

Now that I'm clear, I'll stay away from your self-congratulatory threads.

Sorry about that. Carry on.

I apologize for any hostile tone. I'm not being hostile; it's just a little annoying to explain repeatedly, and it comes off as kind of condescending to "inform" me that floating flop bets with J high and a gutshot shouldn't be the standard play in most situations, as if I run around doing that on a regular basis. ("Try doing that as you move up and let me know how it works" doesn't sound the slightest bit condescending to you?) Any play can theoretically be correct if the right mistake has been observed in the opponent...if you'd like to explain why my player-specific information here is irrelevant, I would like to hear your thoughts (maybe I missed something.)

Honestly I appreciate being able to get feedback from higher stakes players...it just works better when they read the thread.
 

Haight

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Funny how you keep mentioning that I didn't read the thread after I already said that I did. So maybe you're the one that's not reading the posts. So I'll reiderate . . . I read the posts. However, I don't like the play.

It seems that you're assuming that the only reason I'm not congratulating you is because I didn't read the thread. That's kind of funny if you think about it.

Either way, have fun. Talk to you later.
 

simulatedworld

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Funny how you keep mentioning that I didn't read the thread after I already said that I did. So maybe you're the one that's not reading the posts. So I'll reiderate . . . I read the posts. However, I don't like the play.

It seems that you're assuming that the only reason I'm not congratulating you is because I didn't read the thread. That's kind of funny if you think about it.

Either way, have fun. Talk to you later.

I'm not asking for congratulations. I'm not trying to challenge you here so much as explore ideas/gain insight...NTPs just tend to learn by arguing/trying to poke holes in everything given to them, so please bear with me. (Like that time I asked to play heads up and you decided it was some kind of ego thing--no, it's really not; I thought it would be genuinely interesting to play with you and that I'd probably learn something. Heads up is my favorite format because it's so open to creative play--this really had nothing to do with "GRR I AM GOING TO IMPRESS THE FORUM BY BEATING HAIGHT IN HEADS UP PLAY MONEY!!")

Based solely on the difference in the stakes we play, in fact, I'd give pretty good odds that you're better and more experienced at NL holdem than I am. I have no interest in a pissing contest.

Honestly man, I really didn't want to argue with you. I do appreciate that you offered your advice. I'd really like to hear more about it if you have the time, not because I intend to "prove" you wrong, but because I would like to know why you reached your conclusion.

And really, if you're afraid of people mistakenly thinking you don't really read their posts, you might wanna change that usertitle. ;)
 

Haight

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(Like that time I asked to play heads up and you decided it was some kind of ego thing--no, it's really not; I thought it would be genuinely interesting to play with you and that I'd probably learn something...)
Oh, that was you too? LOL

Honestly man, I really didn't want to argue with you.
That's unfortunate because I'm really enjoying myself.

And really, if you're afraid of people mistakenly thinking you don't really read their posts, you might wanna change that usertitle. ;)
That was given to me during a Gautlet challenge that someone won.

Okay then, here's another question: You said you were "floating" the flop. So what would you have done if you would have missed the turn?
 

simulatedworld

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That depends on how often he 2-barrels. I only make these really specific reads because I have a really elaborate HUD setup and had been specifically watching this guy for numerous hands.

Let's trace his range through the hand...bear in mind that I have explicitly observed him stealing my BB from SB (a questionable play in the first place because of the positional problem), and that he has done this literally the last 5 hands in a row.

Based on that, his VP of 52 (very, very few players can get away with playing this many hands and win) and his 35 PFR stat plus his button steal stat of over 50, I put his preflop range here on "any two cards."

Now, how about his flop range? Well, he bets the flop 67% of the time and continuation bets after having raised preflop over 80% of the time, so...

I guess we've eliminated a few absolute trash hands now. His range on the flop is still...almost any two. Against ranges this ludicrous, J9 high is actually ahead of his range!

Against this kind of player I will tend to turn into a calling station, as it's the only appropriate response to a player who constantly insists on building the pot at every opportunity. I could 3-bet him preflop, but there's no point--we know he's not folding and there's no reason to rush to get the money in against a player like this; he will always do that himself.

Now I was also looking at his turn bet stat (45) when I decided to call here--he makes the biggest dropoff in his bet frequencies here on the turn, and this is going to be my best opportunity to use position to float/steal him when he checks the turn.

If I miss the turn and he leads strongly again, I tend to fold because the pot is getting too big for me to want to continue. You say the first mistake was mine--but that's not true; the first mistake was 50 hands ago when I first identified this guy as a maniacal idiot. Given the way he plays, I'm probably also stacking off if I turn a Jack--top pair is clearly well within the range of hands that will beat his silly overshoves here.

I understand that this is a very context-dependent play, but this player's stats clearly indicate he's making these preflop and flop bets on virtually any two cards.
 

Haight

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Now you're contradicting your read statement that you made in the OP. Which tells me that you're realizing your mistakes. And, basically, that's all I was trying to accomplish.

For example:
That depends on how often he 2-barrels. I only make these really specific reads because I have a really elaborate HUD setup and had been specifically watching this guy for numerous hands.
Right, but you wrote this:
This guy has raised my big blind from small blind like the last 14 hands in a row, playing VP 50+ and PFR like 35 lol. He's also 2- and 3-barreling numerous hands with total garbage!

Now, how about his flop range? Well, he bets the flop 67% of the time and continuation bets after having raised preflop over 80% of the time, so...

I guess we've eliminated a few absolute trash hands now.
Not really, because:
This guy has raised my big blind from small blind like the last 14 hands in a row, playing VP 50+ and PFR like 35 lol. He's also 2- and 3-barreling numerous hands with total garbage!
.........................
Against this kind of player I will tend to turn into a calling station, as it's the only appropriate response to a player who constantly insists on building the pot at every opportunity.
Wrong - and I realized this was your theory from my first read of you OP. You either play back at him or you wait and take him to value town. Period. End of story.

You don't, however, play passively against this player without a hand unless you actually believe that you have show down value with J9 after that flop.

The only way that strategy works against this guy is if you are playing small-ball, and I see no indication of that. Even so, you would have shut down after his flop bet.

I could 3-bet him preflop, but there's no point--we know he's not folding and there's no reason to rush to get the money in against a player like this; he will always do that himself.
No, I don't know that. And if you are consistently playing back at him, he will shut down. Regardless, floating doesn't make sense if you really believe he's calling every bet (which was all I was trying to get at with my previous post).


Now I was also looking at his turn bet stat (45) when I decided to call here--he makes the biggest dropoff in his bet frequencies here on the turn, and this is going to be my best opportunity to use position to float/steal him when he checks the turn.
But you just said that you're not playing back at him because he's calling every bet.

Unless you believe that he's calling any pre-flop bet, but not calling after you raise his turn bet - which I don't believe.


If I miss the turn and he leads strongly again, I tend to fold because the pot is getting too big for me to want to continue.
So you floated with the expectation that he was going to check the turn even though:
He's also 2- and 3-barreling numerous hands with total garbage!



Here's the bottom line: I play loose-aggressive. If my VP drops below 36 . . . I'm not playing my game. And being around 40-44 is just right for me. And, that is profitable for me and it works for the super-majority of NL cash pro's. So I'm essentially telling you what works against me and what I do when players are looser than I am. In other words, I either out-aggress them, or I play tight-aggressive and take them to value town when I make a hand. I, however, would never play loose-passive or tight-passive against that type of player.

Or, I'm just full of crap and you shouldn't listen to me. Your choice.

Cheers.
 

simulatedworld

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Now you're contradicting your read statement that you made in the OP. Which tells me that you're realizing your mistakes. And, basically, that's all I was trying to accomplish.

For example:
Right, but you wrote this:


Not really, because:
.........................
Wrong - and I realized this was your theory from my first read of you OP. You either play back at him or you wait and take him to value town. Period. End of story.

You don't, however, play passively against this player without a hand unless you actually believe that you have show down value with J9 after that flop.

The only way that strategy works against this guy is if you are playing small-ball, and I see no indication of that. Even so, you would have shut down after his flop bet.

No, I don't know that. And if you are consistently playing back at him, he will shut down. Regardless, floating doesn't make sense if you really believe he's calling every bet (which was all I was trying to get at with my previous post).


But you just said that you're not playing back at him because he's calling every bet.

Unless you believe that he's calling any pre-flop bet, but not calling after you raise his turn bet - which I don't believe.


So you floated with the expectation that he was going to check the turn even though:



Here's the bottom line: I play loose-aggressive. If my VP drops below 36 . . . I'm not playing my game. And being around 40-44 is just right for me. And, that is profitable for me and it works for the super-majority of NL cash pro's. So I'm essentially telling you what works against me and what I do when players are looser than I am. In other words, I either out-aggress them, or I play tight-aggressive and take them to value town when I make a hand. I, however, would never play loose-passive or tight-passive against that type of player.

Or, I'm just full of crap and you shouldn't listen to me. Your choice.

Cheers.


Interesting...what stakes do you typically play? Full ring or 6max, and what site?

Do you play professionally? Are you able to play VP 40+ in microstakes games and win?

What sorts of hands would you tend to play against this guy and how would you approach them? How does this change with position?

Oh yeah, and I said he was calling most any 3bet preflop...not that he would call every bet postflop. He doesn't tend to call postflop much at all, since he's doing all the betting. When you say I should out-aggress him, how would I go about doing that?

And yes, he is 2- and 3-barreling numerous hands with total garbage, but not over half the time. Since his stats say he gives up the turn a little over half the time, I thought float flop/steal turn might work out. Could you explain what's wrong with this?

Apparently J9 actually does have showdown value, given that his range up until the turn is virtually any two cards. Some of the time he's going to bet the turn aggressively again and I'll fold the best hand, but if I simply auto-fold every flop to him until I flop a good hand, won't that tip him off to stop betting into me after the flop when I call him? (Maybe not; I'm not really sure here.)
 

Haight

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On second thought . . . your play was perfect.

Keep up the good work, and see you around.
 

simulatedworld

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Oh, INTJs and their sarcasm.

Seriously though, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You've got me questioning my plays and looking for mistakes and I guess that's all I can really ask for until I grasp this enough to understand it on my own. :)

P.S.,

Sorry if I was a dick at first. I didn't really know if you had the background to offer relevant input (apparently you do) and given your one-sentence dismissive response and user title I got the feeling you hadn't really considered the hand. Clearly I was wrong.

But anyway, will you critique any more in the future if I post them? That always helps.
 

INTJ123

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you are playing entirely too serious for micro stakes buddy. Bravo for the enthusiasm though, and for catching some donk bluffing.
 

simulatedworld

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Haha well, I want to become really good at 6max cash...might as well figure it out in an environment where my mistakes don't cost that much money.
 

r0wo1

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Honestly man, I really didn't want to argue with you.


You wanted to have a conversation with an INTJ and yet not participate in the inevitable banter/arguement? :rofl1: You could have ruined his day there!

Or were you only being so nice because he's an admin? :rolleyes:
 
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