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  1. #11
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    (Like that time I asked to play heads up and you decided it was some kind of ego thing--no, it's really not; I thought it would be genuinely interesting to play with you and that I'd probably learn something...)
    Oh, that was you too? LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Honestly man, I really didn't want to argue with you.
    That's unfortunate because I'm really enjoying myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    And really, if you're afraid of people mistakenly thinking you don't really read their posts, you might wanna change that usertitle.
    That was given to me during a Gautlet challenge that someone won.

    Okay then, here's another question: You said you were "floating" the flop. So what would you have done if you would have missed the turn?
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  2. #12
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    That depends on how often he 2-barrels. I only make these really specific reads because I have a really elaborate HUD setup and had been specifically watching this guy for numerous hands.

    Let's trace his range through the hand...bear in mind that I have explicitly observed him stealing my BB from SB (a questionable play in the first place because of the positional problem), and that he has done this literally the last 5 hands in a row.

    Based on that, his VP of 52 (very, very few players can get away with playing this many hands and win) and his 35 PFR stat plus his button steal stat of over 50, I put his preflop range here on "any two cards."

    Now, how about his flop range? Well, he bets the flop 67% of the time and continuation bets after having raised preflop over 80% of the time, so...

    I guess we've eliminated a few absolute trash hands now. His range on the flop is still...almost any two. Against ranges this ludicrous, J9 high is actually ahead of his range!

    Against this kind of player I will tend to turn into a calling station, as it's the only appropriate response to a player who constantly insists on building the pot at every opportunity. I could 3-bet him preflop, but there's no point--we know he's not folding and there's no reason to rush to get the money in against a player like this; he will always do that himself.

    Now I was also looking at his turn bet stat (45) when I decided to call here--he makes the biggest dropoff in his bet frequencies here on the turn, and this is going to be my best opportunity to use position to float/steal him when he checks the turn.

    If I miss the turn and he leads strongly again, I tend to fold because the pot is getting too big for me to want to continue. You say the first mistake was mine--but that's not true; the first mistake was 50 hands ago when I first identified this guy as a maniacal idiot. Given the way he plays, I'm probably also stacking off if I turn a Jack--top pair is clearly well within the range of hands that will beat his silly overshoves here.

    I understand that this is a very context-dependent play, but this player's stats clearly indicate he's making these preflop and flop bets on virtually any two cards.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #13
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Now you're contradicting your read statement that you made in the OP. Which tells me that you're realizing your mistakes. And, basically, that's all I was trying to accomplish.

    For example:
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    That depends on how often he 2-barrels. I only make these really specific reads because I have a really elaborate HUD setup and had been specifically watching this guy for numerous hands.
    Right, but you wrote this:
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    This guy has raised my big blind from small blind like the last 14 hands in a row, playing VP 50+ and PFR like 35 lol. He's also 2- and 3-barreling numerous hands with total garbage!
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Now, how about his flop range? Well, he bets the flop 67% of the time and continuation bets after having raised preflop over 80% of the time, so...

    I guess we've eliminated a few absolute trash hands now.
    Not really, because:
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    This guy has raised my big blind from small blind like the last 14 hands in a row, playing VP 50+ and PFR like 35 lol. He's also 2- and 3-barreling numerous hands with total garbage!
    .........................
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Against this kind of player I will tend to turn into a calling station, as it's the only appropriate response to a player who constantly insists on building the pot at every opportunity.
    Wrong - and I realized this was your theory from my first read of you OP. You either play back at him or you wait and take him to value town. Period. End of story.

    You don't, however, play passively against this player without a hand unless you actually believe that you have show down value with J9 after that flop.

    The only way that strategy works against this guy is if you are playing small-ball, and I see no indication of that. Even so, you would have shut down after his flop bet.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I could 3-bet him preflop, but there's no point--we know he's not folding and there's no reason to rush to get the money in against a player like this; he will always do that himself.
    No, I don't know that. And if you are consistently playing back at him, he will shut down. Regardless, floating doesn't make sense if you really believe he's calling every bet (which was all I was trying to get at with my previous post).


    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Now I was also looking at his turn bet stat (45) when I decided to call here--he makes the biggest dropoff in his bet frequencies here on the turn, and this is going to be my best opportunity to use position to float/steal him when he checks the turn.
    But you just said that you're not playing back at him because he's calling every bet.

    Unless you believe that he's calling any pre-flop bet, but not calling after you raise his turn bet - which I don't believe.


    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If I miss the turn and he leads strongly again, I tend to fold because the pot is getting too big for me to want to continue.
    So you floated with the expectation that he was going to check the turn even though:
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    He's also 2- and 3-barreling numerous hands with total garbage!


    Here's the bottom line: I play loose-aggressive. If my VP drops below 36 . . . I'm not playing my game. And being around 40-44 is just right for me. And, that is profitable for me and it works for the super-majority of NL cash pro's. So I'm essentially telling you what works against me and what I do when players are looser than I am. In other words, I either out-aggress them, or I play tight-aggressive and take them to value town when I make a hand. I, however, would never play loose-passive or tight-passive against that type of player.

    Or, I'm just full of crap and you shouldn't listen to me. Your choice.

    Cheers.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  4. #14
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    Now you're contradicting your read statement that you made in the OP. Which tells me that you're realizing your mistakes. And, basically, that's all I was trying to accomplish.

    For example:
    Right, but you wrote this:


    Not really, because:
    .........................
    Wrong - and I realized this was your theory from my first read of you OP. You either play back at him or you wait and take him to value town. Period. End of story.

    You don't, however, play passively against this player without a hand unless you actually believe that you have show down value with J9 after that flop.

    The only way that strategy works against this guy is if you are playing small-ball, and I see no indication of that. Even so, you would have shut down after his flop bet.

    No, I don't know that. And if you are consistently playing back at him, he will shut down. Regardless, floating doesn't make sense if you really believe he's calling every bet (which was all I was trying to get at with my previous post).


    But you just said that you're not playing back at him because he's calling every bet.

    Unless you believe that he's calling any pre-flop bet, but not calling after you raise his turn bet - which I don't believe.


    So you floated with the expectation that he was going to check the turn even though:



    Here's the bottom line: I play loose-aggressive. If my VP drops below 36 . . . I'm not playing my game. And being around 40-44 is just right for me. And, that is profitable for me and it works for the super-majority of NL cash pro's. So I'm essentially telling you what works against me and what I do when players are looser than I am. In other words, I either out-aggress them, or I play tight-aggressive and take them to value town when I make a hand. I, however, would never play loose-passive or tight-passive against that type of player.

    Or, I'm just full of crap and you shouldn't listen to me. Your choice.

    Cheers.

    Interesting...what stakes do you typically play? Full ring or 6max, and what site?

    Do you play professionally? Are you able to play VP 40+ in microstakes games and win?

    What sorts of hands would you tend to play against this guy and how would you approach them? How does this change with position?

    Oh yeah, and I said he was calling most any 3bet preflop...not that he would call every bet postflop. He doesn't tend to call postflop much at all, since he's doing all the betting. When you say I should out-aggress him, how would I go about doing that?

    And yes, he is 2- and 3-barreling numerous hands with total garbage, but not over half the time. Since his stats say he gives up the turn a little over half the time, I thought float flop/steal turn might work out. Could you explain what's wrong with this?

    Apparently J9 actually does have showdown value, given that his range up until the turn is virtually any two cards. Some of the time he's going to bet the turn aggressively again and I'll fold the best hand, but if I simply auto-fold every flop to him until I flop a good hand, won't that tip him off to stop betting into me after the flop when I call him? (Maybe not; I'm not really sure here.)
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #15
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    On second thought . . . your play was perfect.

    Keep up the good work, and see you around.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  6. #16
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Oh, INTJs and their sarcasm.

    Seriously though, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You've got me questioning my plays and looking for mistakes and I guess that's all I can really ask for until I grasp this enough to understand it on my own.

    P.S.,

    Sorry if I was a dick at first. I didn't really know if you had the background to offer relevant input (apparently you do) and given your one-sentence dismissive response and user title I got the feeling you hadn't really considered the hand. Clearly I was wrong.

    But anyway, will you critique any more in the future if I post them? That always helps.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #17
    HAHHAHHAH! INTJ123's Avatar
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    you are playing entirely too serious for micro stakes buddy. Bravo for the enthusiasm though, and for catching some donk bluffing.

  8. #18
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Haha well, I want to become really good at 6max cash...might as well figure it out in an environment where my mistakes don't cost that much money.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #19
    Senior Member r0wo1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post

    Honestly man, I really didn't want to argue with you.

    You wanted to have a conversation with an INTJ and yet not participate in the inevitable banter/arguement? You could have ruined his day there!

    Or were you only being so nice because he's an admin?
    r0wo1 the destroyer of threads has struck again...

  10. #20
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    this thread receives the nocap seal of approval.
    we fukin won boys

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