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  1. #51
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Be easy. Don't assume to know what anybody is assuming.

    We are entitled to opinions. You can be pretty damn opinionated when it comes to music, too.

    And to speak of youth...?
    Younger.

    Sure, but, I also realize that that music isn't being made for me and I'm very careful to separate "enjoyable" from "good" because they're really not the same thing. Many artists are both, so they aren't mutually exclusive, but the former does NOT automatically imply the latter.

    I used to talk shit about pop artists and then I went and tried to make a living as a musician for a while and realized, hey wait, some people want to eat.

    If you're (general "you" here, not you personally) not interested in selling your music, then that's fine and good, but most people who take this position couldn't sell their music even if they wanted to because they simply aren't into it enough to put in the sheer number of hours it takes to do it professionally.

    In short, having a performance career=practicing so much that you don't have time to cultivate a normal career, so as you can see it puts musicians in a bit of a bind. Do I want "credibility" in the eyes of a bunch of pretentious critics who could never do my job in a million years, or do I want...food? And housing?

    It's not a very hard decision.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I've never even watched the show; I don't have a clue what it's about.

    But I can tell you for sure that if you're judging its quality based on internal Ti standards as opposed to the context in which it was conceived, you're missing the point. Ni would help here.

    I did the whole "I AM SO COOL AND AWESOME BECAUSE MY TASTES ARE SO MUCH BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE'S AND HERE ARE A BUNCH OF "OBJECTIVE" Ti REASONS WHY, MAAANNN I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW SO MANY PEOPLE CAN LIKE SO MANY THINGS THAT ARE JUST SO OBVIOUSLY BAD, I MEAN LOOK AT MY ARBITRARY INTERNAL Ti STANDARD, THEY'RE OBVIOUSLY BAD!" thing for a long time when I was younger.

    Then I grew up.

    You're operating under the erroneous assumption that all art is produced for the same purposes for which you would produce art.
    Her original comment was that she resented how the omnipresence of these people in the media made her aware of them and their "douchery". It didn't even address the quality of the show specifically, although one could infer that. How can you pretend to know the origin or motivations of an unspecific, implied criticism? I think as Jeno said, you are assuming a great deal.

    Further, what does internal vs. external standards have to do with it? Everyone is entitled to an opinion on subjective matters like art. Informed opinions are even more valuable. Which Tallulah's is, and by your own admission, yours is not.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild horses View Post
    HAHAHAHAHA Does anyone think that if Bono lost the shades he would become a little bit more bearable!!???
    Not to be a Bono apologist (even though I am), but he suffers from photophobia stemming from an incident where he got a fork stuck in his eye. I won't say he doesn't milk it a bit, but there is a legit reason why he's always got them on.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  4. #54
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Younger.

    Sure, but, I also realize that that music isn't being made for me and I'm very careful to separate "enjoyable" from "good" because they're really not the same thing. Many artists are both, so they aren't mutually exclusive, but the former does NOT automatically imply the latter.
    None of which I implied, though if I had, it would have been perfectly acceptable given the perimeters of the current discussion. No one is judging whether reality shows, in a general or specific sense, are "art" or not. No one is having that discussion. We are having a discussion about our own opinions of celebrities, and which ones annoy us. Nothing more.

    YOU are the one that has come in here trying to take me to task for judging a show as "good" or "bad" for its genre. You are the one that didn't take a look around to see what the intent was.
    Something Witty

  5. #55
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Her original comment was that she resented how the omnipresence of these people in the media made her aware of them and their "douchery". It didn't even address the quality of the show specifically, although one could infer that. How can you pretend to know the origin or motivations of an unspecific, implied criticism? I think as Jeno said, you are assuming a great deal.
    Well, I suppose a better thread title would have been, "Hating on the media for focusing too much on entertainment figures that I don't personally care for."

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Further, what does internal vs. external standards have to do with it? Everyone is entitled to an opinion on subjective matters like art. Informed opinions are even more valuable. Which Tallulah's is, and by your own admission, yours is not.
    Sure sure, we're all entitled to our own opinions and that's great, but that's not what the thread topic was. Read the damn thread; everyone is just whining about entertainment figures they hate and wondering loudly how anyone could possibly enjoy something so obviously bad! That's what I'm responding to; it's Ti arrogant assumption that its standards for art evaluation are somehow objectively superior, as if people making music directed toward a demographic that doesn't include *me me me* is somehow wrong or bad art.

    And the reasoning for it is usually "Well it doesn't meet x, y and z standards of music that I like to listen to, THEREFORE IT'S OBJECTIVELY SHITTY HOW COULD ANYONE POSSIBLY LIKE IT???"

    Seriously, Ni will help here.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #56
    Patron Saint Of Smileys Gloriana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I've never even watched the show; I don't have a clue what it's about.

    But I can tell you for sure that if you're judging its quality based on internal Ti standards as opposed to the context in which it was conceived, you're missing the point. Ni would help here.

    I did the whole "I AM SO COOL AND AWESOME BECAUSE MY TASTES ARE SO MUCH BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE'S AND HERE ARE A BUNCH OF "OBJECTIVE" Ti REASONS WHY, MAAANNN I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW SO MANY PEOPLE CAN LIKE SO MANY THINGS THAT ARE JUST SO OBVIOUSLY BAD, I MEAN LOOK AT MY ARBITRARY INTERNAL Ti STANDARD, THEY'RE OBVIOUSLY BAD!" thing for a long time when I was younger.

    Then I grew up.

    You're operating under the erroneous assumption that all art is produced for the same purposes for which you would produce art.
    I don't think anyone here is trying to pull the self congratulatory "My tastes are superior" thing, at least I'm not picking up on that. There are some conflicting tastes here but it's 'to each their own'. Just because I think George Lucas is a tool, for instance, I'm not going to disregard the opinion of someone who doesn't think he's a tool.

    Maybe there are some passionate opinions here, but I'm personally not picking up on posturing. Any entertainment is subjective, any art or any artist. I'm not going to apologize for liking or disliking something, or the reasons I dislike it. I don't expect anyone else to either.

    Except people who own "HIM" albums they paid good money for. Those people are beneath me. Everyone else is good....

    I do respect it you hate this thread BTW
    "Nobody in life gets exactly what they thought they were going to get, but if you work really hard, and you're kind, amazing things will happen. I'm telling you...amazing things will happen" --Conan O'Brien

  7. #57
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Well, I suppose a better thread title would have been, "Hating on the media for focusing too much on entertainment figures that I don't personally care for."



    Sure sure, we're all entitled to our own opinions and that's great, but that's not what the thread topic was. Read the damn thread; everyone is just whining about entertainment figures they hate and wondering loudly how anyone could possibly enjoy something so obviously bad! That's what I'm responding to; it's Ti arrogant assumption that its standards for art evaluation are somehow objectively superior, as if people making music directed toward a demographic that doesn't include *me me me* is somehow wrong or bad art.

    And the reasoning for it is usually "Well it doesn't meet x, y and z standards of music that I like to listen to, THEREFORE IT'S OBJECTIVELY SHITTY HOW COULD ANYONE POSSIBLY LIKE IT???"

    Seriously, Ni will help here.

    I think you should read the damn thread, yourself. I listed names with basically no value judgment for the type of work that these people do. I just said that they annoy me. I listed a reason for one or two. Some were professional and some were personal and some had none at all. Everyone else did the same. So, what really is your problem? Why do you feel the need to speak in condescension and make false accusations and assumptions?

  8. #58
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriana View Post
    I don't think anyone here is trying to pull the self congratulatory "My tastes are superior" thing, at least I'm not picking up on that. There are some conflicting tastes here but it's 'to each their own'. Just because I think George Lucas is a tool, for instance, I'm not going to disregard the opinion of someone who doesn't think he's a tool.
    Isn't that what the entire thread is? You know, mutually jerking each other off by preaching to the choir?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriana View Post
    Maybe there are some passionate opinions here, but I'm personally not picking up on posturing. Any entertainment is subjective, any art or any artist. I'm not going to apologize for liking or disliking something, or the reasons I dislike it. I don't expect anyone else to either.
    That's fine; I'm not saying you can't have musical tastes. Everybody does--I'm just saying try to avoid insisting that whatever you like is automatically good and whatever you don't like is bad. I like a number of bad bands and I dislike a number of good ones. It goes both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriana View Post
    Except people who own "HIM" albums they paid good money for. Those people are beneath me. Everyone else is good....

    I do respect it you hate this thread BTW
    Thanks. I know you're joking, but it's that kind of attitude that, unfortunately, many Ti/Fi users actually DO have. They evaluate all art according to their own internal preferences by convincing themselves that their personal preferences equate to objective evaluation, and it makes some of them pretty insufferable at times.


    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I think you should read the damn thread, yourself. I listed names with basically no value judgment for the type of work that these people do. I just said that they annoy me. I listed a reason for one or two. Some were professional and some were personal and some had none at all. Everyone else did the same. So, what really is your problem? Why do you feel the need to speak in condescension and make false accusations and assumptions?

    Sorry if I misread a thead about hating on people in the entertainment industry as, you know, hateful toward people in the entertainment industry.

    Not that I particularly care about the feelings of say, Britney Spears, but I do think it's a bit silly the way people (not necessarily you personally) assign value judgments to the "quality" of music, and when asked why simply recite "It doesn't sound like [insert my favorite music here]!", as if pop is somehow inherently inferior for not having the characteristics of [insert whatever genre Ti/Fi user prefers here.]

    It's just holding something up to a false standard that it never purported to meet, which I think is a very common mistake in evaluation of art and the entertainment industry in general.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #59
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Sorry if I misread a thead about hating on people in the entertainment industry as, you know, hateful toward people in the entertainment industry.

    Not that I particularly care about the feelings of say, Britney Spears, but I do think it's a bit silly the way people (not necessarily you personally) assign value judgments to the "quality" of music, and when asked why simply recite "It doesn't sound like [insert my favorite music here]!", as if pop is somehow inherently inferior for not having the characteristics of [insert whatever genre Ti/Fi user prefers here.]

    It's just holding something up to a false standard that it never purported to meet, which I think is a very common mistake in evaluation of art and the entertainment industry in general.
    How about you start a thread about that very issue, instead of coming in this one, guns blazing, condescending to everyone who's posted so far? You've jumped into this discussion a bundle of assumptions, and projecting them onto everyone else. Hardly the way to foster a philosophical discussion about subjective judgments about art and entertainers. Start a thread instead of hijacking this one.
    Something Witty

  10. #60
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    How about you start a thread about that very issue, instead of coming in this one, guns blazing, condescending to everyone who's posted so far? You've jumped into this discussion a bundle of assumptions, and projecting them onto everyone else. Hardly the way to foster a philosophical discussion about subjective judgments about art and entertainers. Start a thread instead of hijacking this one.
    Frankly, I'm having a hard time seeing how I can be blamed for assuming what I assumed given the obvious use of the word "hating" in the thread title.

    P.S.,

    Y'know ya done good when Thinkers start correcting your Fi.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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