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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    But your article makes my argument for me. The Yanks are playing within the rules of the game. Change the rules means changing the system we live under, i.e. down with capitalism.
    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    I don't dispute anything you're saying except to say, you might as well complain about the U.S. influence over the world, or Microsoft's putting Vista in every new computer like it or not, or McDonalds or etc... Capitalism baby....
    Capitalism is the red herring in this discussion. It really has nothing to do with the issue at all. It simply confuses the issue. In typical businesses, there is no incentive for the common success of all competitors. McDonald's is free to crush Burger King, Coke to crush Pepsi, etc. That is because each of those companies is self-contained and need not consider the financial health of its competitors.

    But professional sports teams are not individual businesses. This is the chief argument of the Yankees and those who favor the current rules, but it's simply not true. Sports teams are in fact members of cartels...each team is dependent on the health of the others. It's all in how you view it. The proper view is to see Major League Baseball as the company...the owners in baseball are to a large extent 30 investors in the same business. If the individual franchises were truly independent, then why is there a collective bargaining agreement with the league instead of with each team? Why is there an authority figure (the commissioner) who is elected by all the teams to oversee all the teams? Why is there a special antitrust exemption for sports leagues?

    Sports are competitive endeavors that require a competitive balance among the franchises in the interest of propriety. The legitimacy of the competition is the single most important factor in the health of a sports league. If one team wins more often because of superior resources, that lessens the value of the entire enterprise. Nobody is showing up to see the Yankees take BP or have an intrasquad game. They need opponents, and they need opponents who have a reasonable chance to beat them, or the entire thing is purposeless.

    No, they don't win every year. But they DO make the playoffs nearly every year, and they have a shot to win every year. On balance, they have a much better chance than the Royals and Pirates of the world for reasons other than organizational acumen and baseball skills. That is unacceptable. For every Yankee fan drawn by the team's success, there are two fans of sad sack franchises that turn their backs on the game. Every team is in the same boat, and they sink or swim together.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  2. #22
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Third Rider View Post
    As a Red Sox fan my comments are really not necessary here...
    As a Red Sox fan, any complaints you might have about money would be hypocritical.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #23
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    I hear a lot of people saying that but it really doesn't make too much sense. The Yankees are in their own stratosphere. It really is a whole new level. Besides I love parity. I love the fact that the Rays are contending now and the Bluejays consistently have a tough team. The fact that other teams are beginning to spend and be more discerning in their overall team choices is phenomenal. The excitement of not having certainty is what makes sports so fun.

    When it comes to money it's disheartening that other teams can realistically not compete with the Yankees. I mean think of how many GMs really hedged their bets in getting even an AJ Burnett. The types of value in prospects people gave up to attain Sabbathia and Teixeira, Matt Holliday this coming offseason. The type of benchmark they set with Rivera, Posada, and Arod. The Yankees have far too much economic influence on the game of baseball and it damages every team, especially those near the bottom of overall payroll.

    It's not just the open market that these ramifications occur, the Yankees signed 3 type A free agents. Thanks to some ridiculous calculations they only end up losing 1 first round pick and the brewers only get their 3rd round pick. The Blue Jays get a 2nd round pick for losing Burnett. This is without even getting into their ability to sign an injured pitcher for an exhorbitantly high price 7 mill plus (Andrew Brackman) in the draft.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I find it hilarious that a Red Sox fan started this thread. It's like Donald Trump calling a Saudi prince ostentatiously wealthy.

    That said, it's disgusting and it's wrongheaded and it is terrible for the game. Whenever you have a competitive endeavor, the FIRST thing you must ensure is competitive balance...a fair playing field. If you don't have that, then to an extent your game is fixed. The other three major team sports all have salary caps. But the MLB players' union (long considered the strongest labor union in the USA) and the ownership of the rich teams will never allow it.

    Whenever this point is raised, people say "Well, the Yankees haven't won since 2000, and the Marlins won twice since 1997." Which is true, but is only an anecdotal argument. The Marlins won through shrewd management and talent evaluation. But they had to break up the team both times because they couldn't pay it. The truth is that on balance, the rich teams consistently have a better chance.

    The teams say that they're individual businesses and that they can spend whatever they like in a free market. Which sounds nice, but isn't true at all. If Burger King went out of business, McDonald's would have a party because they are truly independent. But the Yankees, Red Sox and Mets of the world need other teams to play against. A pro sports league isn't 30 or so independent businesses, it's a cartel. And it needs to start thinking of itself that way. They should think of themselves as 30 equal shareholders in a common business, or else this is going to keep happening.

    And the worst part isn't that a Yankees fan enters the season knowing his team can win the World Series. It's that a Pirates fan or a Royals fan goes into a season knowing they can't.
    Great post, not much more needs to be said. The whole "but it's capitalism" argument is very flawed.

    Being a fan of a small market team that manages itself well (St. Louis Cardinals), I find it extremely frustrating that they never have any chance to sign big name players like CC Sabathia. They didn't even try because they knew the Yankees would spend far more than the Cardinals ever could. And you can't say that the Cardinals income is lower because of a lack of effort. Per capita, the Cardinals earn more than the Yankees.

    The Yankees have so much more room for error than other teams. Look at the Mulder trade the Cardinals made a few years ago (which I was against, from the start). The Cardinals traded Dan Haren for Mark Mulder and their rotation has never been the same. Mulder has been injured almost the entire time and Haren has gone on to develop into the type of pitcher I thought he would become (he held his own quite well in the '04 playoffs, as a rookie). The Cardinals don't have the money lying around to just go buy someone like Sabathia, so their rotation has suffered a huge setback, keeping them out of the playoffs for the last couple seasons and allowing the Cubs () to take control of the division. They've had Braden Looper starting, Braden Looper!
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    I hear a lot of people saying that but it really doesn't make to much sense. The Yankees are in there own stratosphere. It really is a whole new level. Besides I love parity. I love the fact that the Rays are contending now and the Bluejays consistently have a tough team. The fact that other teams are beginning to spend and be more discerning in their overall team choices is phenomenal. The excitement of not having certainty is what makes sports so fun.

    When it comes to money it's disheartening that other teams can realistically not compete with the Yankees. I mean think of how many GMs really hedged their bets in getting even an AJ Burnett. The types of value in prospects people gave up to attain Sabbathia and Teixeira, Matt Holliday this coming offseason. The type of benchmark they set with Rivera, Posada, and Arod. The Yankees have far too much economic influence on the game of baseball and it damages every team, especially those near the bottom of overall payroll. It's not just the open market that these ramifications occur, the Yankees signed 3 type A free agents. Thanks to some ridiculous calculations they only end up losing 1 first round pick and the brewers only get their 3rd round pick. The Blue Jays get a 2nd round pick for losing Burnett. This is without even getting into their ability to sign an injured pitcher for an exhorbitantly high price 7 mill plus (Andrew Brackman) in the draft.
    Look at the 2004 World Series. The Red Sox spent $50 million (66%) more than the Cardinals on that their team. The Cardinals could have signed 2-3 #1 starters for that kind of money. Imagine how much closer that series would have been, which they were playing without their injured #1 starter, anyway. Even playing field? *spits*

    When I hear Red Sox fans complain about money, I just roll my eyes. Pirates fans? I feel for them. Reds fans? I feel for them, too.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #26
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  7. #27
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Look at the 2004 World Series. The Red Sox spent $50 million (66%) more than the Cardinals on that their team. The Cardinals could have signed 2-3 #1 starters for that kind of money. Imagine how much closer that series would have been, which they were playing without their injured #1 starter, anyway. Even playing field? *spits*

    When I hear Red Sox fans complain about money, I just roll my eyes. Pirates fans? I feel for them. Reds fans? I feel for them, too.
    You would have had more of a point if this was 04 but as it currently stands the Red Sox are much closer to the middle of the pack than many people realize. Their payroll is right around a comfy 120 million. 4th in the league behind the Mets, Tigers, and of course the team that need not be mentioned. There's about 8 teams in total above the 110 mark and a bunch straddling right around the 90 million mark. Their fiscal advantage is really overblown. Even with all that said however the reason their not as maddening as the Yankees, and more comparable with other teams is their need and penchant for being discriminative and smart in terms of resource allocation. They have a tipping point and they have boundaries and constraints. The past couple of years there is no way anyone could say anything about that other team.

    Another aspect that people aren't really paying attention to is the minor league system. One that routinely rewards teams with a lot of money who are willing to spend. There isn't enough of a casualty in place for some of the more payroll endowed teams. A bunch of teams have been positively excellent in this regard. Arizona, LAAA, TB, and Milwaukee to name a few. That is an absolutely viable way to build a contender either purely internal or through trades. Those aforementioned Reds Fans got themselves a gem for Josh Hamilton, the Diamondbacks had enough of a surplus in the outfield with Chris Young, Eric Byrnes, and Justin Upton to deal Carlos Quentin. The Rays have had Carl Crawford, Rocco Baldelli, B.J Upton, Delmon Young, Elijah Dukes, Evan Longoria, David Price, and Scott Kazmir come through. They got Matt Garza (GM 7, Fuck you!) for Mr. Young, and could have leveraged Baldelli for a lot more if they were willing to trade him when his value was still very high.

    How does this tie in with the Yankees?

    They absolutely did not, do not, and will not feel any pain in the drafting system for going beserk on free agent signings. In fact they even hurt other teams such as the Brewers, and Blue Jays, who do not get a top draft pick for the respective talents they gave up. The Yankees can still exert their financial might in the draft and still come up with an excellent haul. Those JD Drews who want to hold out for more money just salivate at the opportunity. Andrew Brackmans needing major surgery at the time of the draft no problem, just add it to the bill.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    the Red Sox are much closer to the middle of the pack than many people realize. Their payroll is right around a comfy 120 million. 4th in the league behind the Mets, Tigers, and of course the team that need not be mentioned.
    Wow, even the government could give the Tigers lessons in how to get the most for your money!
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  9. #29
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Yankee officials like to say that they are the ones paying to build this stadium, not the citys taxpayers. That is only partly true. The public has subsidized the project in many ways providing generous tax-exempt financing and a variety of other assistance like rent abatements.

    Meanwhile, the total $362 million price tag to the city has almost doubled since the project was announced in 2006. And, according to the Independent Budget Office, the price dwarfs the $138 million the city will provide for the Mets new stadium across town.

    Some city contribution to costs for these stadiums makes sense. But the real question is how much New York gets in return on this very hearty investment.

    The Yankees promise over 6,000 construction jobs. But once their new house is built, there could be as few as 22 full-time, year-round positions.

    What makes this latest request feel like icing on the cake, as Assemblyman Richard Brodsky puts it, is that the rest of the city is staring at such hard times and a looming $1.5 billion budget deficit.

    Mayor Bloomberg has rightly had to cut city budgets and increase property taxes and explain to residents how times are bad and how we all will have to share the pain. It is time for Mr. Bloomberg to make that same pitch to the Yankees.

    If the Yankees can sign megamillion-dollar contracts (C. C. Sabathia just landed one for $161 million over seven years), they should be flush enough to contribute more toward their new stadium and to the parks for people living nearby.

    Mr. Bloomberg should insist that the Industrial Development Agency postpone consideration of this latest Yankee request and then renegotiate this deal. Is A-Rods agent available?
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/15/op...html?th&emc=th

    More for the whiners...
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  10. #30
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    The Red Sox locked up another of their young stars to a long-term deal Thursday.

    Boston avoided arbitration with Kevin Youkilis, agreeing to a four-year contract with the first baseman worth more than $40 million, sources told ESPN's Peter Gammons. The deal includes an option for a fifth year.

    Youkilis enjoyed a breakout season in 2008, hitting .312 with 29 home runs and 115 RBIs.

    Earlier this offseason, Boston signed second-baseman Dustin Pedroia to a long-term deal. The American League MVP received a six-year contract worth $40.5 million.
    Youkilis signed - 4/40million - Sons of Sam Horn

    Those big spenders are at it again!

    Can you believe their financial might? Spending so recklessly on an MVP and a player who had an even better season...
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

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