NF General Discussion Thread [Archive]

kyuuei

10-18-2008, 01:29 AM

Okay I suppose I'll start!

Today I had a debate with my father on same-sex marriage. He thinks that it should not be allowed.

My F nature, I HAD to say "I've known people who were BORN gay and lesbian, fell in love, and how come they should not be allowed to enjoy life as normal people?"

He pointed out that to change the laws based on sexual preference (as in, to say sexual preference is a determining factor in marriage. I hope I said that right.) would be to open a doorway to many other things. People could start saying they 'prefer' small children, and adopt a kid and marry it.. or that they 'prefer' animals, or dead people.. to block all of those would be harder.

..I can't understand this concept. Why not just say "You have to be an adult! and this amendment is only for same sex marriages!" .. >.o I'm not law savy, I saw what he was saying but.. bleh! It was frustrating nonetheless!

heart

10-18-2008, 01:30 AM

disregard

10-18-2008, 01:33 AM

kyuuei

10-18-2008, 01:40 AM

Threads like the "have sex with animals before you kill them" don't help! :D

I support gay marriage, but there are groups out there pushing for the mainstreaming of "inter-generational sex" as they like to call it so your Dad's fears are not baseless.

No kidding! Mr. Yuck certified for sure!

You got slippery sloped!

Yeah.. I see where he's coming from. Sexual preference, once we let one group in, the push for others will come in truck loads.. I can't imagine grown men being allowed to marry little girls too young to make life choices like that. >.o We're out of the dark ages for a reason!!

But still, my heart goes out to the marriages I feel would be legit if it weren't for the suffering of the laws. I can't imagine the world crumbling from letting something beautiful happen like marriage, but dark people do rather enjoy abusing people kindness as a weakness. Always a huge pet peeve of mine.

heart

10-18-2008, 01:44 AM

Same-sex marriage legal here right now but they have a proposition going in the election to end it.

I can't imagine grown men being allowed to marry little girls too young to make life choices like that. >.o We're out of the dark ages for a reason!!

We're not that far removed from then, same human beings. Hopefully people with a sense of decency will prevail and there won't be a slide back.

Hexis

10-18-2008, 02:43 AM

Yes finally, a place for me to rant and rave outside of my own blog! Thank you Disregard, I shall now go back to doing so.

So was going to post this in my blog but oh well might just copy and paste it there later. So me and the mother of my son are haveing disagreements again, we're not currently together but are both mature enough to realize going through court for custody issues would be more damageing than effective. So she keeps him and mostly raises him, when I wasnt working cause I had lost my job I saw him quite often. But now ive been working at my local Circuit City for about 7 months now have gotten a couple of promotions in my short time there and are trying to pay off some credit debt. But with my schedule there and hers at her job its extremely difficult trying to go and see my son. I honestly havent seen him since the day after Ike hit, I of course ran over there to check on them after that cause my cell wouldnt work. Ive had time to try and see him once recently but kinda blew it.

I told her I would be comeing over between 12 and 2, due to faulty alarming lol I didnt wake up until a little after 1. She calls and asks if im still comeing over, I tell her yes but I need a shower first. So im heading over there a little before 2 and she calls me and says not to even bother cause her and Raven are going to take a nap. I ask why, and she says cause I was suppose to be there at noon. So i just get pissed and fed up with it and hang up. I havent talked to her since, and this was last Wednesday.

So that was me ranting, but heres a question for NFs concerning the same thing. It kills me not being able to see my son everyday like she gets to but that was a known consequence of our break up. And I get to see him so little that when I do see him he doesnt even know who I am, and this definitely hurts. But I just dont have the time to come and see him as often as id like and theres really nothing I can do about it with how both our work schedules are. Now my question is does any of the NFs here ever had to deal with anything similar and if so howed you go about it? And what are your thoughts on my lack of contact with my son and how it might affect our relationship in the future when hes older?

heart

10-18-2008, 02:48 AM

^ Sorry I don't have children so never had the same type of thing happen.

I just wanted to post and say I'm getting a *&&^%$$ headache!

Hexis

10-18-2008, 02:51 AM

No problem was mostly just ranting anyhow. But I have no advice for headaches either, I never get them and if I do its a clear indicator that im sick, which almost never happens either.

Silently Honest

10-18-2008, 02:52 AM

New topic; Headaches suck, agree or disagree?

disregard

10-18-2008, 02:53 AM

SillySapienne

10-18-2008, 03:06 AM

New topic; Headaches suck, agree or disagree?
Pfff, so disagree!!

:rolli:

HEADACHES ARE AWESOME!!!

:wubbie:

:wubbie:

:wubbie:

But they are not nearly as awesome as having root canals, no, no, not in the least. :wubbie:

heart

10-18-2008, 03:08 AM

^ Okay...transferring *awesome* headache to CC!

But you know, given by a skilled dentist, a root canal can be relaxing. It's so methodical and numb.

heart

10-18-2008, 03:10 AM

No problem was mostly just ranting anyhow. .

Yes, life can be so frustrating and sux. :hug:

Hexis

10-18-2008, 03:12 AM

Hexis, with parenting, it's not all or nothing. Show up when you can... When I was young, I saw my mom once every 2 weeks and she and I are very, very close. Things will get better and you'll get into a routine with your ex. Just try to do something special to express your respect for your ex next time you visit your son. Show up right on time with a fun plan (I don't know how old your son is, so maybe plans aren't possible).

Thanks alot Dis, its just when my family sees me they give me these looks like I should feel bad for the way im liveing my life, so once again thanks.

And as for the new topic the dentist is AWESOME! Those chairs are so comfy and my last nurse was hot! Hell I think im gona make an appointment for next week! (jokeing i dont have insurance for that lol)

Anja

10-18-2008, 03:13 AM

I have good news!

You know living with an ISTJ can be trying. I'm am often trying to find situations where he can relate to the INFP experience. And I had a great opportunity tonight.

We were watching a film with Peter Fonda in it. And he made the comment that Fonda wasn't a very good actor, that he just lacked that "spark."

Whoa! NF talk coming from him?

"Yeah, that's what I'm talking about when say I sense someone's spirit!" I said.

I could see him thinking about this. Yes, he really did. And I think he had a glimmer of understanding. Whoopee!

I think I've got ten/twenty more years to widen this little crack in the awareness of difference. Oh boy!

heart

10-18-2008, 03:14 AM

Those chairs are so comfy and my last nurse was hot! Hell I think im gona make an appointment for next week! (jokeing i dont have insurance for that lol)

Dentists are usually good lookin!

Silently Honest

10-18-2008, 03:16 AM

Pfff, so disagree!!

:rolli:

HEADACHES ARE AWESOME!!!

:wubbie:

:wubbie:

:wubbie:

But they are not nearly as awesome as having root canals, no, no, not in the least. :wubbie:

Well I hope for your dentists sake you remember to tip. :huh:

disregard

10-18-2008, 03:17 AM

Thanks alot Dis, its just when my family sees me they give me these looks like I should feel bad for the way im liveing my life, so once again thanks.

When my dad was still a young man, he was "the loser" of the family, and now he's sittin pretty, king of his castle with the respect of everyone.

Just takes time and "blood, sweat, and tears".

kyuuei

10-18-2008, 03:30 AM

I'd respond Hex, but it'd be silly since I COULD say my views in person!!

My dentist in Iraq was frikken smokin'. I think he was actually flirting with me a bit too, which rocked!! Too bad a few words spoken and one time follow up was it for it all! u-u!! I wish my REAL dentist was that hawt! I have an old dude. I'm with heart though, ya'll can keep headaches. I only get them on medication and when I'm really sick... or hung over.

Anja, I lol'd at that! "See?! It's the same thing for this!!" '..Hm. I can almost attempt to think about seeing what you mean on that. Further analysis would determine whether or not I will use this information to further enlighten myself--' "ugh!! :rolli:"

nolla

10-18-2008, 03:32 AM

And what are your thoughts on my lack of contact with my son and how it might affect our relationship in the future when hes older?

I don't have kids but I do come from a divorce family, so I can tell you that the amount of time you spend with your kid isn't the only thing. How old is he? I think the younger they are the more it is about spending actual time. The older they get, it is mostly about the quality of the time you spend with him. At least that's how it worked for me. I grew up with my dad, but mom and I were always more tight, since my father isn't really the kind of guy who likes to talk about things or show emotions or anything like that...

But still, my heart goes out to the marriages I feel would be legit if it weren't for the suffering of the laws. I can't imagine the world crumbling from letting something beautiful happen like marriage, but dark people do rather enjoy abusing people kindness as a weakness. Always a huge pet peeve of mine.

I don't think the question really is about the law. I can see that church has basically good reasons for not approving gay marriages, and I don't think the church should be made to approve this if it is against their morals or teaching. It is about traditions and faith for them and if they don't believe that gays should marry, then that's it. BUT, legally it should be all good for gays to get married and have all the same benefits and obligations as a hetero couple. It is only fair that there is legally the same rights for all people, but, the church is a different thing... If I want to go to a catholic church and drag a statue of buddha there, they would object it for the same reason.

And, I don't think for a moment that giving gays the right to marry would send pedophiles marching on the streets claiming their rights. I mean, they must on some level realize that what they do is wrong...

nolla

10-18-2008, 03:37 AM

We were watching a film with Peter Fonda in it. And he made the comment that Fonda wasn't a very good actor, that he just lacked that "spark."

Whoa! NF talk coming from him?

"Yeah, that's what I'm talking about when say I sense someone's spirit!" I said.

It's really frustrating for me to watch movies because of this. I always see when the act is fake and the actor isn't really feeling the feeling he's supposed to be feeling. I can't enjoy most of the movies the way "normal" population does...

heart

10-18-2008, 03:37 AM

And, I don't think for a moment that giving gays the right to marry would send pedophiles marching on the streets claiming their rights. I mean, they must on some level realize that what they do is wrong...

I don't think the slipperly slope arguement is a good reason to block same sex marriage but it is true that other groups will try to use it as leverage for their preferences and it will be up to society to prevent it. Many pedophiles do not tend to think that what they do is wrong. They have a mental/emotional immaturity that prevents them from having proper perspective, otherwise they would fixate their sexual drives on adults and leave children alone to begin with.

There have been some recent studies put out by pro-pedophile PHds that try to claim that intergenerational sex isn't harmful to children. Google and I am sure they'll come up. They'd like to convince the rest of us of this as well.

nolla

10-18-2008, 03:40 AM

If they are human enough to see what they do to the child, they should have regrets... I don't know, maybe they are not.

kyuuei

10-18-2008, 03:42 AM

Hm. I hadn't even put the church into this at all.. since I feel the EXACT same way. You can't make any religion that isn't doing anything illegal violate their beliefs. I had meant legal marriages, like through the Justice of the Peace and such.. not a church marriage.. that'll always be impossible.

With pedophiles, I DON'T think they believe they're doing anything wrong. If they did, why would they do it? It's a heavy thing to go through an act so typically seen as wrong and such.. but with organizations such as NAMBLA existing, I can't think that they believe it's wrong.

That out of the way.. To base one law on sexual preference.. wouldn't that be the push organizations like NAMBLA would need to start trying to amend laws to allow themselves to go through with what THEY prefer sexually? .. I don't think that's totally baseless. In my head, you'd just put "Only gays kthnx" on the law and it'd be fine.. but really, once one major law is pushed through, it makes way for several other things as well doesn't it?

.. I wonder what Jack Flak would have to say on all this >.o Oh well! His fault not being an NF.

kyuuei

10-18-2008, 03:44 AM

If they are human enough to see what they do to the child, they should have regrets... I don't know, maybe they are not.

That's like saying that robbers should have regrets about stealing. Unfortunately, usually the only thing they ever regret is if they get caught.

(YES I KNOW SOME REGRET IT LATER KTHNX.. But I also know a LOT of them never do.)

heart

10-18-2008, 03:55 AM

If they are human enough to see what they do to the child, they should have regrets... I don't know, maybe they are not.

They weren't gelled right, part of them remains hung up in childhood themselves, hasn't reached proper perspective. Without the right perspective to see their own actions they cannot reach the state of having regrets.

kyuuei

10-18-2008, 03:56 AM

Right. It seems there's little as dangerous as an adult with the mind of a child.

nolla

10-18-2008, 04:00 AM

I had meant legal marriages, like through the Justice of the Peace and such.. not a church marriage.. that'll always be impossible.

They have big argument in Lutheran church here over this issue. It seems like they will approve church marriage for gays. There might be some "sect" of the church starting as an opposition to this. But, yeah, maybe catholic church is a different case...

With pedophiles, I DON'T think they believe they're doing anything wrong. If they did, why would they do it?

They have urges they cant fight? It's a bit hard for me to imagine how they might see it. Is it the same for them as jaywalking is for me? "Nobody's watching so why not?"

GZA

10-18-2008, 04:02 AM

Natural and Positive law? Necrophilia?! NAMBLA?!?! :shocking: When I saw "General Discussion" I thought it would be about this year's Superbowl halftime show or something. Evidently I was wrong...

Personally I don't see how there is any comparison between mutual homosexual relationships and pedophilia or necrophilia or what have you. I just don't get it. It seems more like an excuse to not let gays marry than an actual plausible social concern.

heart

10-18-2008, 04:05 AM

They have urges they cant fight? It's a bit hard for me to imagine how they might see it. Is it the same for them as jaywalking is for me? "Nobody's watching so why not?"

Reading about what is known about it, it is their own immature sexuality that causes the urges to begin with. It feels normal and natural to them, hence they have a hard time seeing anything wrong with it. They think they are showing affection and positive attention to the child. They really have a distorted view of what's natural.

nolla

10-18-2008, 04:07 AM

.. I wonder what Jack Flak would have to say on all this >.o Oh well! His fault not being an NF.

Yeah, I love NFs since they are so fluffy; their general discussion turned to child abuse in an instant.

:devil:As usual, I faked that quote...

nolla

10-18-2008, 04:09 AM

Personally I don't see how there is any comparison between mutual homosexual relationships and pedophilia or necrophilia or what have you. I just don't get it. It seems more like an excuse to not let gays marry than an actual plausible social concern.

Yes, this is exactly what I should have said. (You know, when sometimes the IDEA of what you want to say is obvious to you, but you don't find the way to say it)

heart

10-18-2008, 04:11 AM

nolla

10-18-2008, 04:16 AM

So it is about society having fear that society doesn't know where to set the limit?

heart

10-18-2008, 04:20 AM

So it is about society having fear that society doesn't know where to set the limit?

It is a persuasion tact. If they can get someone to admit that it is logical that other groups with nefarious agendas might use same sex marriage as a springboard for their own agendas, then people will say "well, then this same sex marriage is a bad idea because it gives an opening to these other groups."

Then a person either has to deny the possibility that these groups would use the issue or they have to say okay no same sex marriage.

But these are not the only two choices yet people allow the media to frame the questions of every single debate that faces us and allow their minds to be trained to focus in on "It's A or B" type choices.

GZA

10-18-2008, 04:28 AM

I see it different. It is plausible that other groups will try to use the passage of same sex marriage to promote their agendas with, but it is up to society to set limits on this. It's a valid concern but not a valid reason to deny gay marriage.

We're trained to think in such either or terms and sometimes life just isn't either or.

It's a valid concern that the groups will try to use it as leverage, yes, but it is not a concern that they will be able to come up with any reasonable and comparable arguments to make any real political or social progress. I also can't imagine that enough of the general population would support, for example, a group like NAMBLA and it's agenda in the greater sense of the law... it's just way too much of a niche. I don't think it is a real issue at all, and as you said, certainly not enough to deny gay marriage.

nolla

10-18-2008, 04:31 AM

But these are not the only two choices yet people allow the media to frame the questions of every single debate that faces us and allow their minds to be trained to focus in on "It's A or B" type choices.

Well, it is always best for the people with majority support to use this strategy.

heart

10-18-2008, 04:36 AM

It's a valid concern that the groups will try to use it as leverage, yes, but it is not a concern that they will be able to come up with any reasonable and comparable arguments to make any real political or social progress. I also can't imagine that enough of the general population would support, for example, a group like NAMBLA and it's agenda in the greater sense of the law... it's just way too much of a niche. I don't think it is a real issue at all, and as you said, certainly not enough to deny gay marriage.

Many people can be massively swayed through TV and fiction to let go of that which previously was considered taboo, it takes time though.
Many people will also listen to what anyone considered to be an expert says. That which is unreasonable can be accepted by many people if one is able to sandwich it convincingly in between two layers of reasonbility. They grasp the truth and cannot let go of the chafe in between.

nolla

10-18-2008, 04:40 AM

...And this is the only reason we go to school for so long time. To not let the Man get us.

violaine

10-18-2008, 04:45 AM

Many people can be massively swayed through TV and fiction to let go of that which previously was considered taboo, it takes time though.
Many people will also listen to what anyone considered to be an expert says. That which is unreasonable can be accepted by many people if one is able to sandwich it convincingly in between two layers of reasonbility. They grasp the truth and cannot let go of the chafe in between.

^Eh, not that far though. I rarely speak in absolutes but this would never gain a foothold. The protective instinct most people have with regard to children would not be so easily eroded.

heart

10-18-2008, 04:48 AM

heart

10-18-2008, 04:49 AM

^Eh, not that far though. I rarely speak in absolutes but this would never gain a foothold. The protective instinct most people have with regard to children would not be so easily eroded.

We'll see, that much is for certain. In the past, people would throw their children into fires for favor from the "gods." People sold their children into slavery and later sent them into workhouses. Did the human race suddenly develop stronger child protection genes?

Even now people are trying to turn progress back in the name of "teen rights" the right for adults to be sexual with teens.

nolla

10-18-2008, 04:51 AM

Public education in the USA at least was set up mostly to train workers for factory work and to be ritualized in behavior, busy work, etc. It does not really focus on critical thought. It trains people in dialectical thinking.

Oh. In here it is very different then. I would expect that at least everyone who went to high school has some critical thinking...

nolla

10-18-2008, 04:52 AM

Even now people are trying to turn progress back in the name of "teen rights" the right for adults to be sexual with teens.

? :shock: Really?

violaine

10-18-2008, 04:54 AM

We'll see, that much is for certain. In the past, people would throw their children into fires for favor from the "gods." People sold their children into slavery and later sent them into workhouses. Did the human race suddenly develop stronger child protection genes?

Even now people are trying to turn progress back in the name of "teen rights" the right for adults to be sexual with teens.

Of course, because they labored under superstitions that we do not. Honestly, it's such a hot-button issue that so many people are aware of and incensed about, unless society really regresses the general pop is not going to be swayed like that. Teen rights is another matter as those teens are advocating for themselves. In that area it conceivably could become murky.

heart

10-18-2008, 05:05 AM

Of course, because they labored under superstitions that we do not. Honestly, it's such a hot-button issue that so many people are aware of and incensed about, unless society really regresses the general pop is not going to be swayed like that. Teen rights is another matter as those teens are advocating for themselves. In that area it conceivably could become murky.

I am not convinced that the area of teen rights is totally promoted only by teens. Corporations, politicians, any one who would like to able to exploit teens, they all have an interest in erroding legal protections on minors and teens.

If you believe that people have left behind magical thinking and supersition, you can't have taken a very close look around you. Many people get so outraged about child abuse because the media tells them to. Society can regress at any time. We're still the same human race. People are still capable of taking on a might makes right mentality.

nolla

10-18-2008, 05:07 AM

People are still capable of taking on a might makes right mentality.

I think it would take about a year of anarchy and you have another dark age for morals.

heart

10-18-2008, 05:09 AM

I think it would take about a year of anarchy and you have another dark age for morals.

Colema had a funny cartoon about that. :D

violaine

10-18-2008, 05:12 AM

I am not convinced that the area of teen rights is totally promoted only by teens. Corporations, politicians, any one who would like to able to exploit teens, they all have an interest in erroding legal protections on minors and teens.

If you believe that people have left behind magical thinking and supersition, you can't have taken a very close look around you. Many people get so outraged about child abuse because the media tells them to. Society can regress at any time. We're still the same human race. People are still capable of taking on a might makes right mentality.

We might have to agree to disagree here. They sacrificed their children because of their beliefs, I didn't say magical thinking doesn't exist today - but wholesale child sacrifice in western society certainly doesn't. I mentioned teens advocating for themselves as a counterpoint to the fact that children would not advocate for themselves in order to have sexual relationships with adults. Hence, it will always be perceived as being against the child's will. I have a really hard time believing the likes of NAMBLA etc will ever be able to sway the general pop to their way of thinking.

nolla

10-18-2008, 05:21 AM

Children are often treated as if they don't have a will of their own, so it might not be that far from going into a pedophile-accepting society.

heart

10-18-2008, 05:23 AM

Looking at cases of parents who murder childrenand the sentencing, often there's an air that children are sort of "property" which is disturbing.

nolla

10-18-2008, 05:36 AM

To lift the spirit of this discussion, let me tell you a story. Story of a plum tree.

A few months ago we realized that a bush on our yard is a plum tree. It had loads of plums ripening, but as the winter was getting closer I started to think they are not going to get ripe before the first frost. They didn't, but we harvested them anyways and mashed them and try to make wine. We haven't done that before, so I don't know if we have any chances. Anyway, it seems to be working. It bubbles and everything. Has anyone tried to make wine of plums? Should they be ripe?

heart

10-18-2008, 05:39 AM

I know nothing of making fruit wines, except that one has to be careful or they have too much of a certain chemical that gives people massively bad hangovers.

nolla

10-18-2008, 05:43 AM

Oh? Well, that hasn't stopped us drinking before... :devil:

heart

10-18-2008, 05:47 AM

If it is processed improperly it develops those chemcials, something about the fruit sugar. I read it on Yahoo questions before.

nolla

10-18-2008, 05:57 AM

If it is processed improperly it develops those chemcials, something about the fruit sugar. I read it on Yahoo questions before.

Well, we boiled the plums and added some enzymes that have something to do with the sugar processing...

heart

10-18-2008, 05:58 AM

See I know nothing about it really, just rambling.....

nolla

10-18-2008, 05:59 AM

Yes, I think we need a chemist now... Unlikely in NF forum, don't you think.

heart

10-18-2008, 06:05 AM

Will the plums ripen if picked and put into paper bags?

nolla

10-18-2008, 06:10 AM

I don't know and we don't have any more left :) I guess it will make the wine a bit sour maybe..?

kyuuei

10-18-2008, 07:28 AM

They have big argument in Lutheran church here over this issue. It seems like they will approve church marriage for gays. There might be some "sect" of the church starting as an opposition to this. But, yeah, maybe catholic church is a different case...

Was Totally unaware of this XD

Natural and Positive law? Necrophilia?! NAMBLA?!?! :shocking: When I saw "General Discussion" I thought it would be about this year's Superbowl halftime show or something. Evidently I was wrong...
It seems more like an excuse to not let gays marry than an actual plausible social concern.

I'm so sorry I hadn't meant for this to turn TOTALLY serious! XD It was just conversation that came up so I threw it in here. I agree as well, on one end it could be taken the way my dad had.. but on the other, that could be all the leverage people need to prevent gay marriage entirely. If the law wants to prevent something, I believe it can and will. People find a way to do whatever they want.

Looking at cases of parents who murder childrenand the sentencing, often there's an air that children are sort of "property" which is disturbing.

There was a disturbingly annoying thread about this!!

To lift the spirit of this discussion, let me tell you a story. Story of a plum tree.

A few months ago we realized that a bush on our yard is a plum tree. It had loads of plums ripening, but as the winter was getting closer I started to think they are not going to get ripe before the first frost. They didn't, but we harvested them anyways and mashed them and try to make wine. We haven't done that before, so I don't know if we have any chances. Anyway, it seems to be working. It bubbles and everything. Has anyone tried to make wine of plums? Should they be ripe?

Damn you! We've been nursing a fig tree for 2 years now.. Fruitless! Literally and otherwise!

nolla

10-18-2008, 07:58 AM

Damn you! We've been nursing a fig tree for 2 years now.. Fruitless! Literally and otherwise!

We have loads of apples too.. :yes:

kyuuei

10-18-2008, 05:09 PM

Damn! Finland must have all the fertile soil. :ouch: .. It could also be that my dogs chew on the tree for some reason.. <GASP!!> Mayhap they eat my figs! .. Suspicion is enough to convict in my house. Brb.

So. I was looking at the "NTS!!!TYPZUH8!?!" Thread. and I was thinking.. mayhap actually I get a bit frustrated dealing with other ENFPs. I love my fellow ENFPs to death, and I couldn't imagine myself without them.. but I find it hard to grasp the concept there are people who think exactly the way I do, and my INFJ friend never fails to point out the obvious that I try so hard to overlook when I question my fellow ENFP motives.

I DO get very frustrated trying to understand ISTJs though. I get along with my very own quite well.. but just canNOT grasp some of the shit that comes out of his mouth. Like he's speaking in greek... and I'm a cat.

Anja

10-18-2008, 05:13 PM

Hahahahha!

I hear that!

I just had a helpful little household hint to pass on. (It's a secret that only INFPs are allowed to know, I think.)

If you have a piece of fruit that you want to ripen quickly, put it in a bag with a couple of green bananas.

They spray the nanners with something to ripen them and it apparently is still on the skin. I use this method to ripen avocados all the time.

kyuuei

10-18-2008, 05:15 PM

:O !! I had no idea that existed!! I didn't even know the sprayed bananas! ;o; Is it toxic? What if you eat the peels?

Anja

10-18-2008, 05:37 PM

If you eat the peels your mouth puckers up!

Probably what made all your parents so goofy - smokin' banana peels. Heh.

I dunno. . .

kyuuei

10-20-2008, 04:15 AM

Dun'it just make you a weeeeee mad when ENTJ's storm into something, tell everyone in there that they're wrong/stupid/senseless/boring, then proceed to make their claim of brilliance, following thereafter replies that may be seen as astonished that people aren't entirely completely convinced to rethink their ideals based on their clearly laid-out evidence of awesome?!

Hexis

10-20-2008, 04:16 AM

My nose freakn' hurts and im hungry!!!

Ok so im off the next two days, yeah kick ass!

*leaves*

Edit: It makes me madder when someone trys calming me down by calling me sweets!

:angry:

:whistling:

Anja

10-20-2008, 04:21 AM

Anja

10-20-2008, 04:22 AM

Isn't that what it's supposed to do Hexis?

Anja

10-20-2008, 04:23 AM

What are you doing tonight, kyuuei?

kyuuei

10-20-2008, 04:33 AM

What are you doing tonight, kyuuei?

Drinking strawberry milk, watching an allergy commercial, saving the world, and talking on AIM. ... One of those might me made up.

Clownmaster

10-20-2008, 04:41 AM

One of those might me made up.

Bitch, you don't have strawberry milk!

;)

kyuuei

10-20-2008, 04:46 AM

Lol!!

Anja

10-20-2008, 03:13 PM

You guys are funny.

Here's part of a note I dropped to someone today regarding a recent experience I had this week where I was double-timed by a couple of folks stuck on Tee.

Analogy:

You go to Paris. You have a good tiime. You want to tell them what it's like so they can go and enjoy it too.

They say, "Where's the pictures?"

You say, "I didn't take any."

They say, "Aw, there's no such place as Paris. Annnnnd even if there was, you didn't go there."

They miss Paris.

(And you start to think that, for thinkers, some people are stoopid!)

nolla

10-20-2008, 05:06 PM

I prefer holiday stories to photos.... Anyone with me?

Rachelinpa

10-20-2008, 07:17 PM

Here is my gripe... not worth creating a thread for...

I'm supposed to go to this huge party on Saturday and I don't know if I want to because I only know (of) about 10 people going and they are all ESs. I often love parties where I don't know everyone, but it's a gamble every time. Will it be fun, won't it be fun? Will I make a connection? Will I feel included? Ahhhhhhhhh stressful.

Plus, then the next day, it's like dealing with split personalities. Love 'em drunk, hate 'em sober.

It's like false intimacy. It feels like I have so many friends, but I know not one on the level I want to. I know it's a lie! Boooo.

And, they all think I'm the same as them. But, I know not one N in the group. I'm not like them and I'm so dissatisfied without knowing I have a base of what I would consider real relationships. I want to not care so much about making deep connections in large social settings! It's ridiculous!

disregard

10-20-2008, 07:21 PM

Are they cool kids or are they lamers?

I've usually like parties. I never really feel "at home" at a party, but I enjoy the thrill of all of the socialising and craziness.

Rachelinpa

10-20-2008, 07:33 PM

They are cool in a wild sort of way. Party people. Thing is, I do love parties and I know it will probably be fun, but also kind of fruitless...

I mean, I'm reasonably new to Philly, I want to make actual friends... not just FEEL like I have friends. And, I find that after the party, if nothing stems from it, that I usually feel worse than if I had not gone at all. Mostly because it doesn't feel like it was real.

disregard

10-20-2008, 07:38 PM

Eh, I only like parties if the people there are people I know and are cool according to moi. I feel very alienated and annoyed at parties or "kickbacks" with people that I don't find reasonably mature or interesting.

Rachelinpa

10-20-2008, 07:39 PM

Buuuut, what if you're in this phase of trying to meet new people because you do not have any close friends in the area? It's a gamble you sort of have to take if you want relationships! Or at least, that is what I am finding...

Yeah, I'll probably be annoyed.

kyuuei

10-20-2008, 09:24 PM

If my group isn't there, I'm generally not either. I like socializing and all with new people, but I roll with a crew now a days >.o so even if it wouldn't have been fun, hanging out with my friends owns all.

nolla

10-20-2008, 10:14 PM

I'm supposed to go to this huge party on Saturday and I don't know if I want to because I only know (of) about 10 people going and they are all ESs. I often love parties where I don't know everyone, but it's a gamble every time. Will it be fun, won't it be fun? Will I make a connection? Will I feel included? Ahhhhhhhhh stressful.

And, they all think I'm the same as them. But, I know not one N in the group. I'm not like them and I'm so dissatisfied without knowing I have a base of what I would consider real relationships. I want to not care so much about making deep connections in large social settings! It's ridiculous!

This is stressing for me too. Lately I have only hung out with people I know well. It feels very different than the kind of situation you are going to. I don't like facades so I prefer it this way. On the other hand if you don't go, you wont find your kind of people, so.. I think you should go and play along.

Buuuut, what if you're in this phase of trying to meet new people because you do not have any close friends in the area? It's a gamble you sort of have to take if you want relationships! Or at least, that is what I am finding...

It's not a gamble. You go and you find some folks you like, or you go and you don't find them. You don't lose anything. Not exactly win-win but neither a gamble.

Rachelinpa

10-21-2008, 01:17 AM

You do lose sometimes though. Certain people sap the life out of me, so it would feel like a wasted evening. I don't usually subject myself to situations where I am not sure I will enjoy myself. I don't know. I think someone might give me a ride, which would be a definite bonus. I hate going to parties by myself when I don't really know anyone (at all) and don't know if I can trust the people I'm with.

Yeah, I will play...

I have to go in costume. haha.

nolla

10-21-2008, 01:18 AM

Well, yeah, some people do that, but still, you can always leave, right?

disregard

10-30-2008, 03:53 AM

NFs get under my skin when they are moral finger-pointers.

Silently Honest

10-30-2008, 03:55 AM

NFs get under my skin when they're feeling whiney and chatty at the same time.

GZA

10-30-2008, 11:45 PM

NFs get under my skin when they are moral finger-pointers.
Moral finger pointers bother me in general. I mean people who believe in a moral, try to force it on you, and don't consider the possiblity that it is a bad moral or that it doesn't apply to some people.

heart

10-30-2008, 11:50 PM

When NF want to deny or excuse evil for the sake of harmony, ugh.

SillySapienne

10-31-2008, 12:00 AM

When NF want to deny or excuse evil for the sake of harmony, ugh.
:yes:

And when did this become an NF bashing thread, wtf?!?!?! :steam:

I don't know, I hate people who excuse every act with some sort of relativist-it is-all-gray excuse.

I do view myself as a reasonably compassionate and understanding person. But, c'mon, infringing upon other people's inherent rights is wrong, hurting innocent people for self-gain is wrong, no ifs ands or buts.

Silently Honest

10-31-2008, 12:09 AM

:yes:
And when did this become an NF bashing thread, wtf?!?!?! :steam:

Meh, I prefer to think of it as a.... a...

An NF bashing thread yeah, but at the very least we can admit our flaws, that's half of the battle.

heart

10-31-2008, 01:49 AM

:yes:

And when did this become an NF bashing thread, wtf?!?!?! :steam:

I don't know, I hate people who excuse every act with some sort of relativist-it is-all-gray excuse.

I do view myself as a reasonably compassionate and understanding person. But, c'mon, infringing upon other people's inherent rights is wrong, hurting innocent people for self-gain is wrong, no ifs ands or buts.

Yeah, exactly. :nice:

SillySapienne

11-01-2008, 09:56 PM

Ugh!!!

Who here is ever tired of being the "bigger" person.

I just find it sometimes aggravating, being considerate of people whom I deem as insecure.

I think this is an NF thing, or perhaps just a mature quality, to fight fairly. But sometimes, ugh, I just want to unleash some mean, you know!?!??

I rarely, if ever, feel comfortable providing my psychoanalysis about someone to them, even if they ask.

I can't even recall all of the arguments/fights I have gotten into where the other person started going berserk because of their *own* issues.

Another thing, being emotionally intelligent, and mindful are incredibly important things.

Checking in with yourself, identifying your feelings, and understanding why you feel the way that you do.

Do you guys ever hate your instinct to be kind, sometimes I want to be a reckless, careless bitch, because it seems like it would feel good, momentarily, at least.

Gah!!!

:azdaja:

Anja

11-01-2008, 10:04 PM

Chick? You called me out?

Dang. I work on this all the time because I'm happier with myself when I don't "stoop." But once in a blue moon a little imp gives me a poke in the spleen and I think, "Hey! When's it my turn to be the asshole?"

Want a little abuse, you stoopid kid? :devil:

Anja

11-01-2008, 10:05 PM

Oh thit.

(Now I feel bad. . .) :doh:

SillySapienne

11-01-2008, 10:07 PM

Yes, I sometimes want to stoop to someone's level regardless of what my disapproving values say.

Gah, 'tis very, very frustrating.

:yes:

SillySapienne

11-01-2008, 10:10 PM

*deep breaths*

*deep breaths*

*mantra*

*deep breaths*

disregard

11-01-2008, 10:12 PM

It may be aggravating to be the bigger person, but it feels great in the long run.

Meanwhile, they get their pleasure now, but it's ultimately empty and unsatisfying.

It's sort of like the stock market!

Anja

11-01-2008, 10:24 PM

*Evil self-satisfied giggle* ;)

GZA

11-01-2008, 10:28 PM

Going apeshit on someone is never a good idea cause it's really all projection.

I can't even recall all of the arguments/fights I have gotten into where the other person started going berserk because of their *own* issues.

Why else would you need to go berserk other than insecruity? Whenever people talk shit about other people it always reflects on them way more than the person they're talking about. I was thinking about this today, I kind of think anything you say, even when talking about other people, speaks only for yourself. Other people are who they are and nothing you say or think about them can change what they really are. You probably don't even know that person well enough to understand them, so you're outlashing is probably completely unfounded and wrong anyway. They're just projecting their own suck onto you. And everyone sucks a little bit, right?

How many times have people said things about you that really don't describe you at all? For me, a ton of times, but none of those change who I am, so I never feel the need to unleash at someone. I used to go fucking apeshit at people, I was a really angry kid, but I just don't care any more, and boy is it rewarding.

SillySapienne

11-01-2008, 10:35 PM

Going apeshit on someone is never a good idea cause it's really all projection.
SOOOOOOO TRUE!!!!

People's propensity to project has been a haunting reoccurring theme that I have picked up on in my life, to the point where I view it to be a tenet of human behavior.

Why else would you need to go berserk other than insecruity? Whenever people talk shit about other people it always reflects on them way more than the person they're talking about. I was thinking about this today, I kind of think anything you say, even when talking about other people, speaks only for yourself. Other people are who they are and nothing you say or think about them can change what they really are. You probably don't even know that person well enough to understand them, so you're outlashing is probably completely unfounded and wrong anyway. They're just projecting their own suck onto you. And everyone sucks a little bit, right?
Wow, yessss!!!

Everything you say is really a reflection and projection of yourself, period!!!

:hug:

Are you sure you are only 16?!?!? :thinking:

How many times have people said things about you that really don't describe you at all? For me, a ton of times, but none of those change who I am, so I never feel the need to unleash at someone. I used to go fucking apeshit at people, I was a really angry kid, but I just don't care any more, and boy is it rewarding.Lol, apathy does have its perks, doesn't it. ;)

I care, unfortunately, and if I don't reason with it, or let it out somehow, I have a tendency to get implosive, which is berry, berry, baaaaaddddd!!!!

:yes:

Anja

11-01-2008, 10:35 PM

I agree with the projection stuff, GZA. Doesn't it crack you up when someone goes on and on about something that bothers them and it's all stuff they do themselves? I can hardly keep from gettin' all righteous about it. Heh.

Some folks don't seem to have a lot of introspection.

I was just thinking today about that blanket statement people sometimes make around here about INFPs going to any lengths to preserve the peace and asking myself under what circumstances I will do that and which ones I won't.

Lady X

11-01-2008, 10:50 PM

do you ever wish you would just shut the hell up?
everybody doesn't need to know how you really feel all the damn time!!

oh...just to clarify...haha...i am talking about me...none of you...sorry just read that and it sounded like it...hahaa

disregard

11-01-2008, 10:52 PM

LOL

That is the best part of the ENFP though. Their effusive self-expression. It's beautiful and very endearing.

Lady X

11-01-2008, 10:56 PM

is it an e thing?
most of it's lovely and sweet...because you know...we see things like that...but sometimes it's not...and it's not so great...i surprise myself daily by the lack of control over what comes out of my mouth!! i'm actually quite embarrassed for myself!

SillySapienne

11-01-2008, 11:00 PM

Silently Honest

11-01-2008, 11:02 PM

Girl, try some shamelessness, I highly recommend it. :)

Seconded.

GZA

11-01-2008, 11:03 PM

It could be an extraverted thing, because I'm introverted and I'm a closed book. I'm only expressive through creative things.

What exactly did you say?

And I agree with the shamelessness part -if thats how you naturally are, then so be it.

Lady X

11-01-2008, 11:04 PM

hmmm...yes...pour me a B I G cup...i need it...haha

disregard

11-01-2008, 11:05 PM

*pours erin some from her Costco size carton of Shamelessness*

Lady X

11-01-2008, 11:10 PM

thanks...does that mean i can go back to havin fun :D

Peguy

11-02-2008, 01:59 AM

Anja

11-02-2008, 01:01 AM

I used duct tape last night in my shoes. Halloween costume.

End of night - tights stuck to shoes!

Husband said Red Green would have been proud of me.

Peguy

11-02-2008, 01:03 AM

Husband said Red Green would have been proud of me.

I loved that show.

Anja

11-02-2008, 01:03 AM

I just had a thought -

How many intellectuals think that it's duck tape?

Peguy

11-02-2008, 01:05 AM

I just had a thought -

How many intellectuals think that it's duck tape?

Ahh yes......ground up Duck carcasses, special ingredient for that special kind of glue!

Anja

11-02-2008, 01:06 AM

So do you subscribe to

"I'm a man.
I can change.
If I have to.
I guess"?

Peguy

11-02-2008, 01:11 AM

So do you subscribe to

"I'm a man.
I can change.
If I have to.
I guess"?

Care to explain it a bit more. :confused:

StoryOfMyLife

11-02-2008, 04:02 AM

I just had a thought -

How many intellectuals think that it's duck tape?

*lol*

Isn't that a brand of duct tape, though?? :yes:

cafe

11-02-2008, 04:51 AM

Care to explain it a bit more. :confused:
The Man's Prayer from the Red Green show. :jesus:

nolla

11-02-2008, 09:15 AM

I just got my plum wine ready yesterday... It tastes like raw plumes. Damn it. It does get you quite drunk, though, so it's not a complete failure. Mental note: Wine tastes a lot like its ingredients...

Peguy

11-02-2008, 05:06 PM

The Man's Prayer from the Red Green show. :jesus:

No shit, really? Damn, I really have fallen behind on my TV shows. :(

Never had plum wine before. I rarely drink these days, and if I do it's usually good old vodka. What can I say - I'm Polish! :D

JivinJeffJones

11-02-2008, 05:18 PM

I was watching Californication yesterday and Dave Duchovny uses the term "broner" which is evidently "an unintentional male inspired boner". Is this an actual phenomenon among heterosexual men? I've never experienced one. Is it a fictional creation? Has anyone here experienced one?

JivinJeffJones

11-02-2008, 05:36 PM

I can feel the NTs wanting to respond to that Californication reference. But they can't. :newwink: It feels pretty good.

Peguy

11-02-2008, 06:03 PM

Has anyone here experienced one?
Can't say that I have. I only get boners for hot chicks.

Perhaps this is but one element of the general tendecy towards effeminacy we commonly see in many men these days. Just like those ads targeted at men for underwear or fragrances - those disturb me to no end. :wtf:

Anja

11-02-2008, 11:18 PM

Ack. "Broners" Never had one. Sad to miss out.

In spite of the possibility of disturbing any delicate sensitivities, I'll offer that I've experienced a wide-on or two.

Such a typically abrupt shift in focus. Those sexual references certainly can be distracting and compelling. . .

Yeah, THE MAN'S PRAYER. I was trying to remember what that was called. It's sovery appropos. ;)

Anja

11-04-2008, 07:27 PM

Had to drop in and see if my little faux pas remained hanging out all by its lonesome. Heh.

It's hard to know what to say when a woman of a certain age says something like that, isn't it?

I listen all day to young people referencing their sexual parts. It's common conversation these days.

Certainly sounds different when I share in the TMI, doesn't it? ;)

SillySapienne

11-04-2008, 10:04 PM

Nah, I don't think so.

Human beings are sexual creatures and I believe, when possible, people continue to have sex until they die.

Interestingly enough, I think it is funny how often men can and do casually mention getting hard-ons, boners <--- silly word, what have you, but when a girl alludes to something along the lines of her "getting wet" ..... :ohmy:

Clownmaster

11-04-2008, 10:18 PM

There's such a happier connotation to hearing "getting wet" than "getting a boner"
That, or, I'm just your typical male human

wedekit

11-04-2008, 10:48 PM

Has anyone else ever noticed that slang for sex usually has a violent connotation?

F*ck (which, according to my English professor, is derived from the Anglo-Saxxon word: to bludgeon)
Screw
Bang
etc.

It makes me feel kind of odd about subconscious perspective of sex. Though I am quite annoyed when I hear people say "make love" in a situation where there is obviously no true form of love involved (e.g. one night stands).

SillySapienne

11-04-2008, 10:52 PM

Penetration can be painful, and I am sure in our sexual past there has been plenty of rape.

Also, imagine a child, hypothetically looking at two individuals having sex, it does, and would kind of look violent, unless of course the individuals were making sweet wuuubbbb!!! :D

Silently Honest

11-04-2008, 10:57 PM

Ugh have you ever had to look at someone you're related to after they've had sex, and they're trying to hide it, but deep in your heart you know they just did it.

God it's an akward feeling..

GZA

11-05-2008, 12:58 AM

Ugh have you ever had to look at someone you're related to after they've had sex, and they're trying to hide it, but deep in your heart you know they just did it.

God it's an akward feeling.. Especially when their girlfriend is there, too, and they're still a little flushed...

I definitely try to make it more awkward by making as many blatant innuendos as possible, but only if it's my brother. Thats happened a couple of times and we just laugh it off cause thats how we are. If it was my sister, I'd probably leave the room and do something extremely distracting untill I forgot about it.

Silently Honest

11-05-2008, 01:06 AM

See I couldn't do that, I'm usually to busy wondering why the girl would allow that animal that I happen to be related to touch her with it's penis. Let alone put it inside her.

Ugh. I'm way past grossed out.

Anja

11-05-2008, 01:24 AM

Gross out? Wanna hear gross-out?

Wedekit talks about the inherent violence in our street slang which most find acceptable without a second thought.

I have a girlfriend who lectures on healthy sexuality. She starts out by asking the room for street phrases for sexual body parts and everybody has a lot of fun. Then she gets really down and dirty by rephrasing everything in clinically correct terms.

I swear she can have a whole room full of tough guys staring at their hoes in embarrasment before she's done.

THEN she gets to the heart of the matter. . .

It's a riot.

(Hey! Lookit my Freudian. Heh. I'l let it stand. Meant to type "shoes.")

__________________________________________________ _______________

I once went to a workshop on sexuality at the U of MN and one speaker said this. Here's the mixed messages we get about sex when young in this society:

1. Sex is beautiful. But don't do it!

2. Sex is dirty. Save it for the one you love.

__________________________________________________ __________

And the imp in me wants to start describing my body in graphic detail the next time I read anything about hard nipples! Think that would be a thread killer? Yeah. Maybe. Hee.

Silently Honest

11-05-2008, 02:10 AM

No, I'm pretty sure a relative in the room next to yours is still grosser.

heart

11-05-2008, 02:55 AM

I said I wasn't going to look at election coverage until midnight...I just looked! :blush:

Mondo

11-05-2008, 02:56 AM

I crave romance but instead of looking for it, I'm just going to write a novel about it! :D

Silently Honest

11-05-2008, 02:59 AM

I crave romance but instead of looking for it, I'm just going to write a novel about it! :D
Yeah. I believe it.

Anja

11-05-2008, 03:43 AM

No, I'm pretty sure a relative in the room next to yours is still grosser.

True. 'scuse my goofy exuberance. ;)

I can't imagine. Don't think I'd be comfortable with it if I could hear it.

I grew up oblivious to the fact that my parents were sexual beings. Maybe they weren't!

I know my adult kids aren't comfortable talking about any family member's sexuality and they were raised with what I think were open attitudes.

Must be the incest taboo. It's nearly inherent in this culture, I guess.

SillySapienne

11-06-2008, 12:22 AM

Sorry guys, need to vent..

Why are some people so disappointing?

:sad:

Ugh, ugh, ugh!!!

Let people live the lives they want to live, quit infringing on an adult's right to make a decision concerning his own life, let consenting adults DO AS THEY FUCKING PLEASE!!!

If you don't like it? Then don't engage in the behavior, but why would you ever impose *your* preferences and personal beliefs on someone else.

And...

USE YOUR FUCKING BRAINS!!!

Education, thinking, critical thinking, these are all such beautiful and *necessary* things.

GAHHHHHH!!!

Ignorance facilitates "evil".

:sad:

:sad:

Lady X

11-06-2008, 12:25 AM

^^^ awww...you okay??

heart

11-06-2008, 12:33 AM

Most people can't think critically, these links explain why!

Mack White (http://mackwhite.com)

The Century of the Self - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

A form of science would be used on the public shortly, of which they would be oblivious, that would control their minds, their thoughts eventually they will have no opinions of their own. All they will be able to do is repeat and parrot what they've heard on the previous nights news, because they would then expect the media to actually exist to do their reasoning for them."

Zbigniew Brzezinski
Between Two Ages: America's Role in the Technetronic Era, 1970

"Shortly the public will be under the influence of a form of mind control which they'll be totally unaware of."

Lord Bertrand Russell
The Impact of Science on Society

kyuuei

11-06-2008, 03:21 AM

I don't think it's my responsibility to judge anyone, think for anyone, or tell them what I feel is right and wrong in response to their personal lives and decisions.

I do, however, feel it my duty to speak up when I see someone I care about making a decision I believe is bad for them. I may sometimes seem as if I am pushing my agenda onto them, for it is out of love that I mention it at all.. but ultimately, I will support them and their choices almost anyway I can than to ever let them think that my morals are above our friendship. Exceptions to every rule exist.. however, for the most part, this is how I think.

Clownmaster

11-06-2008, 05:44 AM

I do, however, feel it my duty to speak up when I see someone I care about making a decision I believe is bad for them.

From experience, doing that can result in ruined friendships, but that's the price to pay to listen to your gut says sometimes huh?

SillySapienne

11-06-2008, 09:36 AM

BerberElla

11-06-2008, 10:11 AM

BerberElla

11-06-2008, 10:12 AM

I love kindness, and kind-hearted people.

Whenever I meet a kind person I feel overwhelmed with :wub:

One genuinely kind person excuses, or negates the existences of 100 assholes, I swear.

So, to all you kind folk out there, I am so so appreciative that you exist.

:hug:

That's so true, I am always so touched when I come across a kind soul. They make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside and rekindle hope.

Not just that but they always seem to appear in those moments when you most need it, just as if the cosmos knows that you are in need of some goodness.

Lady X

11-06-2008, 01:47 PM

http://www.2ni2.com/emoticon/amor/grupo_amistad.gif awww...group hug haha

Anja

11-06-2008, 03:10 PM

Yeah, angels. I think we might be angels. Hee.

Damn! It's a tough life for angels flying too close to the ground.;)

Auntie Anja gives CC a motherly hug and says, "Go back out there, Girl."

Lady X

11-06-2008, 03:33 PM

i am bored to tears!!! i cannot wait to move back home!!!
ughhh...

GZA

11-06-2008, 08:58 PM

I feel like shit cause I really havn't been as kind a person as I want to be/have been in the past for a while now.

Strange that what would be therapuetic right now would be healing someone else :doh:

I'm rooting for you, CC, I always am.

Wild horses

11-06-2008, 09:20 PM

Where is home Erina??

Silently Honest

11-06-2008, 10:46 PM

I feel like shit cause I really havn't been as kind a person as I want to be/have been in the past for a while now.

Being kind is overrated. :hug:

wedekit

11-07-2008, 12:45 AM

Most people can't think critically, these links explain why!

The Century of the Self - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self)

I had to read "The Triumph of the Therapeutic: Uses of Faith After Freud" (by Philip Rieff) for my Philosophy of History & Culture class. I'm so surprised that no psychology class I have taken has gone over this concept; of course it could be because psychologists are probably reluctant to admit that their moral neutrality is questionable.

The reason we had to read this for a philosophy class on culture was because of how it is destroying the foundations of culture. Though culture is an extremely hard concept to define, there is general consensus that it is the one thing that unifies the people of a population. This "Century of Self" (or what Rieff calls "the psychological man") puts a gap between us and others because we are now encouraged to not be "repressed" by culture, religion, or society. For example: A man who wishes to have sex with donkeys believes that he should be able to, and he desires not to be "repressed" by those who believe he shouldn't.

I did not read the entire book but only the sections that were assigned, so I would blame my own failure at conveying a proper summary before dismissing the theory altogether. I just thought the argument was interesting.

heart

11-07-2008, 12:49 AM

The Century of Self was more about how Frued's ideas and psychological knowldege are used to maniulate and drive public opinion and individual thoughts.

Anja

11-07-2008, 01:00 AM

Peguy

11-07-2008, 03:07 AM

I had to read "The Triumph of the Therapeutic: Uses of Faith After Freud" (by Philip Rieff) for my Philosophy of History & Culture class. I'm so surprised that no psychology class I have taken has gone over this concept; of course it could be because psychologists are probably reluctant to admit that their moral neutrality is questionable.

The reason we had to read this for a philosophy class on culture was because of how it is destroying the foundations of culture. Though culture is an extremely hard concept to define, there is general consensus that it is the one thing that unifies the people of a population. This "Century of Self" (or what Rieff calls "the psychological man") puts a gap between us and others because we are now encouraged to not be "repressed" by culture, religion, or society. For example: A man who wishes to have sex with donkeys believes that he should be able to, and he desires not to be "repressed" by those who believe he shouldn't.

I did not read the entire book but only the sections that were assigned, so I would blame my own failure at conveying a proper summary before dismissing the theory altogether. I just thought the argument was interesting.

Haven't read this particular book, but another that deals with this issue to a great extent is Christopher Lasch's The Culture of Narcissism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Narcissism)

wedekit

11-07-2008, 04:13 AM

Aw, wedekit. I think it's just that, with all this prosperity, we have become a very self-centered, me-first culture.

And the idea of "personal rights" has followed right along.

(And how does the donkey feel about all this?) ;)

It's odd how in most other cultures your family is your foundation and comes first. In my experience, it's more common for Americans to be willing to abandon their families in order to be who they want to be, or do what they want to do. I admit to having this kind of mindset during some parts of my life.

I also think that the American idea of freedom has transformed from its original meaning. I see the American revolution being based on a "freedom from..." Now people use it as a "freedom to..."

And YEAH! Poor donkeys! =(

Haven't read this particular book, but another that deals with this issue to a great extent is Christopher Lasch's The Culture of Narcissism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Narcissism)

Thanks for the link. Interesting stuff.

Peguy

11-07-2008, 04:40 AM

I also think that the American idea of freedom has transformed from its original meaning. I see the American revolution being based on a "freedom from..." Now people use it as a "freedom to..."

I think you have it backwards. The original context for American concepts of "freedom" was based the concept of "positive freedom"; wheras the common notion we have now is "negative freedom"(freedom from....).

Originally America was governed by the concept of Civic Republicanism, which meant that freedom was based upon the shared parcipitation in the community to help ensure the freedom of that community. Of course in order to achieve that, certain virtues had to taught to the people in order to cultivate the ability to implement self-government.

Of course that concept has been discarded over the past 40 years or so(actually longer, but it really takes off in this time frame).

In the 1920's, Carl Schmitt for one noted many of the flaws of the Liberal concept(which has replaced the Republican one). For one, as he noted, the long-term survival of any legitimate political system depends on its ability to call its citizens to self-sacrifice in times of need. This notion, however, violates the individualism of Liberal thought. You cannot force a person to fight unless he actually wants to. This in effect leaves the system dangerously exposed to danger and may ultimately lead to it being defenseless.

And Schmitt warned about the ultimate consequences of such:
"It would be ludicrous to believe that a defenseless people has nothing but friends, and it would be a deranged calculation to suppose that the enemy could perhaps be touched by the absence of a resistance. No one thinks it possible that the world could, for example, be transformed into a condition of pure morality by the renunciation of every aesthetic or economic productivity. Even less can a people hope to bring about a purely moral or purely economic condition of humanity by evading every political decision. If a people no longer possesses the energy or the will to maintain itself in the sphere of politics, the latter will not thereby vanish from the world. Only a weak people will disappear."
--Concept of the Political

wedekit

11-07-2008, 04:45 AM

Woops. I did have it backwards.

Peguy

11-07-2008, 05:10 AM

I must say I got a real laugh reading this (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nt-private-forum/10538-what-those-bitches-nf-private-forum-whining-about-now.html) over at the NT private forum.

Apparently they think they're so badass to rip on us NFs under the cover of their private forum, where we can't get them. Ohhhh dear, how fucking awful. :rolli:

Silently Honest

11-07-2008, 12:22 PM

Meh, shit happens. It's there forum, let them talk about what they want.

SuperFob

11-07-2008, 03:22 PM

"NF General Discussion Thread," eh? What's there to say about us except that we're awesome (besides the fact that we're > those pesky NT's)?

Anja

11-07-2008, 04:05 PM

Smiling, smiling.

You know, I can see it presented both ways, wedekit and Peguy. Works for me either way and I think the end result we're dissatisfied with looks the same.

Yeah, damn, Super. Ain't we?

It's funny that you use the word "pesky" cuz sometimes when one of those guys is ripping on me for "logic" and "facts" the mental picture I get in my head is of a swarm of gnats. And I want to get a newspaper and go, "Shoo! You guys are annoying!"

That focus on debate as a method of social interaction seems an attempt to control the conversation.

And from my persective all the human qualities go down the toilet because they aren't "scientific." Don't count.

It's frustrating.

It feels to me like:

Me: Please come into my world and tell me who you are.

Tees: Either get into my world and follow my rules or go away.

Yeah, that's how I sometimes feel with that style of interaction.

kyuuei

11-07-2008, 04:36 PM

LOL! Very well said?!! :heart: Anja.

LOL I had the awesome pirivilage of my first debate like that being with BlueWing. It was such a stalemate!

BW: Theoretically this makes perfect sense.
Me: The reality is human nature prevents this from working.
BW: Feelings aren't involved in this conversation!
Me: Well grr!!

It's all a bit funny looking back at it now. Infact, the argument I had last night was the male instinct V.S. The emotional instincts of a woman in a situation of fighting. The fight ended up as a stalemate of course.. But the logical "This is a more functional way of doing things.." majorly clashed with the "but it's morally right to do things this way..". I'm still not sure which side I agree with more.. I'm bias and have to think the way I do, but I very much so see the other point.

Lady X

11-07-2008, 04:43 PM

^^^ how funny i agree with both of you as well...haha
acceptance and understanding is the only way to go...cuz no ones's gonna win that one. :D

Anja

11-07-2008, 06:54 PM

I sometimes think that people who are rigidly fixed in the "scientific" fail to notice all the obvious truths which play out in the world all around us. And being "big picture" people it seems to me that we can see both sides - the spiritual and the mental, whereas they only see the mental.

It's like some totally miss the human factor. Edit: Well, and are truly baffled by it. (Which is why they don't want to talk about it?) Puts them at a "win" disadvantage?

Anja

11-07-2008, 06:57 PM

Peguy, you're kind of interesting because it seems to me that you straddle both worlds with some balance.

Anja

11-07-2008, 06:57 PM

My new secret nickname for you - The Straddler! :wubbie:

Peguy

11-07-2008, 07:03 PM

Anja I agree with you, NTs have the bad habit of only seeing half the picture. If you bring up the other half, they often try desperately to avoid it, dismiss it, or shut down the discussion altogether.

Peguy, you're kind of interesting because it seems to me that you straddle both worlds with some balance.

Thank you. :)

kyuuei

11-07-2008, 07:09 PM

Or maybe they figure they'll just leave all that nonsense up to the people that already grasp it better and stick to what they're good at? .. I get that sort of mindset occasionally.

Anja

11-07-2008, 07:13 PM

But my question, then becomes - "So, if you love knowledge so much, why aren't you interested in finding out more about something you don't understand?"

There's so much of that intense need to prove they are "right." And discomfort with ambiguity.

Anja

11-07-2008, 07:14 PM

Well, yeah. That's how it is.

So why does that disturb me so much?

Thinking. . .

Peguy

11-07-2008, 07:15 PM

Feeling. . .

Corrected. ;)

kyuuei

11-07-2008, 07:17 PM

Honestly, I wish I were more thinking. I could easily and readily accept things for the way they are, instead of getting this idealistic glimmer in my eye. I'm the sort of person that someone says "We need to move this." and I move it without ever realizing it's 3 times my size. In the negative side of things.. When something isn't the way I want it to be, I can be rather selfish and offended by it because my emotions tell me that that isn't right... instead of merely taking a neutral stance.

In the end, I wouldn't be as fiery and upbeat with a T... but I would be more managable and easier to deal with.

Anja

11-07-2008, 07:19 PM

I've had to work quite a bit on acceptance and still have a lot of work in that area. But it does give me peace of mind.

It seems in some ways that Tees have it easier because once they decide what is correct they're home free.

Peguy

11-07-2008, 07:22 PM

That's true, you have to be willing to accept yourself. Thats a major key to life.

Heck I used to beat myself up for not being as skillful in terms of analyizing certain topics in the way that many Ts(especially INTPs) are able to. These thoughts still creep up, but now I accept the fact that I have my own unqiue INFJ way of approaching issues effecting the world.

Anja

11-07-2008, 07:24 PM

Peguy

11-07-2008, 07:32 PM

Getting back to Anja's comment; I do find it odd how often I'm able to "straddle" both worlds; or rather argue with the NTs on their own ground. I even point out the logical fallacies within their arguments.

I guess that's a result of being INFJ - who usually are the most Thinking of the NFs.

Oh well, I don't sticking up for my fellow NFs when the NTs get on your cases. :)

Peguy

11-07-2008, 07:36 PM

And others, too, Peguy. And situations.

That doesn't mean liking it or not trying to change it. But ultimately developing a sense of reality, that, in the moment, things and people are what they are. That is soothing to me.

Common parlance would put it:

Suck it up!

Just last night elsewhere I was arguing about the difference and relationship between Accepting love and Transforming love. Accepting love is about self-acceptance and Im sure you know what transforming love means as well. You need a proper balance of both, but nowadays we have an insane bias towards the latter in many respects.

As theologian William F. May noted: "Accepting love, without transforming love, slides into indulgence and finally neglect. Transforming love, without accepting love, badgers and finally rejects."

Anja

11-07-2008, 07:48 PM

Interesting thoughts.

You're leaving me in the dust with the terminology, though.

My days of studying philosophy are long past, even though I believe what I read and pondered helped me to create a comfort with myself.

And, as we are dong, people make good "books."

Peguy

11-07-2008, 08:01 PM

Oh sorry. I didn't mean to overwhelm with the terms, I just wanted to give a full perspective on the issue.

Peguy

11-08-2008, 06:01 PM

Hey Anja, thanks for the interesting coversation last night. Let's do it again! :)

Anja

11-09-2008, 06:35 PM

I'd like to see the video you offered which shows how they recorded the music with the trumpets outside of the church, Peguy.

Later today, if you aren't busy?

SillySapienne

11-09-2008, 06:47 PM

I guess that's a result of being INFJ - who usually are the most Thinking of the NFs.
Hmm, gonna have to disagree with you here, champ.

All of us have different ways in which we express our thoughts, some of us express our thoughts well, others... not so much.

It *really* isn't based on type, though.

Anja

11-09-2008, 06:57 PM

What would you say it's based on, CC?

Jae Rae

11-09-2008, 07:00 PM

I'd like to see the video you offered which shows how they recorded the music with the trumpets outside of the church, Peguy.

Later today, if you aren't busy?

Ditto.

SillySapienne

11-09-2008, 07:04 PM

It would loosely be based on: The more you think in general, including intro/outro/intraspectively thinking as well as critical thinking, and the more willing you are to ponder, juggle and at times reconcile difficult and *personally* challenging material.

In short, the more you choose or desire to actively think about things, the better thinker you will then be.

:)

Peguy

11-09-2008, 07:30 PM

I'd like to see the video you offered which shows how they recorded the music with the trumpets outside of the church, Peguy.

Well it's not the actual recording of the album. Rather a church decided to incorporate music from the album into their own Christmas service, and this is their performance of that hymn. It gives you an idea of how this was done back when it was originally performed in the 1600's.

In dulci jubilo, Michael Praetorius, CCBNY Christmas 2007

Doesn't look like they placed the trumpets outside the church, but they still followed Praetorius' instructions to have them at the back of the church.

Later today, if you aren't busy?
Maybe, although I might be busy. :)

Peguy

11-09-2008, 07:38 PM

Btw Anja, here's their performance of the other hymn from that album I showed you :) :

Vom Himmel hoch, da komm ich her

wedekit

11-09-2008, 08:40 PM

I sometimes think that people who are rigidly fixed in the "scientific" fail to notice all the obvious truths which play out in the world all around us. And being "big picture" people it seems to me that we can see both sides - the spiritual and the mental, whereas they only see the mental.

Yeah, I always found it strange that people assume that our 5 senses are able to tell us everything that is worth knowing in this universe. Seems kind of arrogant.

"I can't see, smell, feel, hear, or taste it, so how could it possibly exist!?" ¬_¬

Anja

11-10-2008, 02:16 PM

Thanks, Peguy! Beautiful music. It just totally fills the room. And as I said before, so very uplifting.

That's my ISTJ husband, wedekit, and is it ever a source of irritation for me. If I didn't see it, it didn't happen. This weekend I told him that we needed to put some dead leaves on a bed of perennials because they had winterkilled last year.

He said, "They did not!"

"Um, Dear. I had to go to the greenhouse and replace them this Spring. That's why the flower bed looks so healthy." Guess he didn't see me do that? :doh:

wedekit

11-11-2008, 06:21 AM

Anja

11-12-2008, 05:47 AM

I had a ton of Lutheran education, got fed up with organized religion and bounced around forever with ideas of atheism, agnosticism, spiritual discontent. And finally I found what works for me.

Everyone pretty much has to do that for themselves, I think. And the lucky ones are the ones who can plug into a church and find contentment there.

cherchair

11-12-2008, 07:53 AM

Peguy, you're kind of interesting because it seems to me that you straddle both worlds with some balance.

I totally agree about Peguy and try never to miss his posts, partly because balance is something I aspire to, but never seem to achieve.:doh:

wedekit

11-12-2008, 12:51 PM

Well, they say a lot INFJs mistaken themselves for INTJ.

Peguy

11-12-2008, 09:18 PM

I totally agree about Peguy and try never to miss his posts, partly because balance is something I aspire to, but never seem to achieve.:doh:

Ahhh.....you speak too highly of me. :blush:

SillySapienne

11-13-2008, 01:41 AM

So, how many of you NFs are atheists or agnostics?

I get this strong feeling that I may be one of the select few.

:unsure:

Anja

11-13-2008, 01:43 AM

None of the above for me. Deeply spiritual - uh - whatchamacallit.

wedekit

11-13-2008, 06:28 AM

So, how many of you NFs are atheists or agnostics?

I get this strong feeling that I may be one of the select few.

:unsure:

You might be able to round up some NFs that are "spiritual" but not "religious," if that will suffice. :)

Kyrielle

11-13-2008, 11:09 AM

So, how many of you NFs are atheists or agnostics?

I get this strong feeling that I may be one of the select few.

:unsure:

A few here define themselves by those terms. A wedekit said, there are many who are spiritual, but do not count themselves as atheist or agnostic or religious. I dunno, one thing I like about people here, is if they are religious, they don't shove it in other's faces like some people in real life do. :)

Anja

11-13-2008, 04:29 PM

I wouldn't feel comfortable putting someone else's idea of spirituality or non-spirituality down. It's such a private matter and no matter where a person is on the path/nonpath we are always in the state of change, either deteriorating or growing.

But I do feel like an advocate of spiritual growth.

wedekit, did I see that you had started a forum about slender men? Thought I did, but when I went back to post there yesterday I couldn't find it.

wedekit

11-13-2008, 06:12 PM

A few here define themselves by those terms. A wedekit said, there are many who are spiritual, but do not count themselves as atheist or agnostic or religious. I dunno, one thing I like about people here, is if they are religious, they don't shove it in other's faces like some people in real life do. :)

I would never shove my religion in someone's face, and I don't mind respecting their religious/spiritual beliefs as long as mine are respected. However, it seems that tolerance for the religious is low on this forum, so I choose to keep it to myself in most cases. Skimming through the Spirituality section should provide plenty of examples of why I do.

wedekit, did I see that you had started a forum about slender men? Thought I did, but when I went back to post there yesterday I couldn't find it.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/relationships/8583-skinny-guys-30.html#post412841

Anja

11-13-2008, 06:40 PM

Sending this to all my NF friends today. Just heard it on the radio and it pulled me right out of my chair.

Talk about an NF gettin' it right and havin' a good day! :hi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM89EZ_d_rw

Enjoy!

And thanks for the link, w.

Anja

11-13-2008, 06:45 PM

It's not coming up. Try

http://www.youtube.comwatch?v=BHOZgXzlkk

Edit:

Oh hell. Why do I have so much trouble on this forum with this kinda stuff?

It's Natasha Bedingfield singing "Unwritten." Awesome INFP song. Shows the kind of joy and sense of connection that we feel when we've got our heads on straight. Kewl song.

Anja

11-13-2008, 07:05 PM

Deleted post.

SillySapienne

11-13-2008, 07:20 PM

Hmm, of all religions and philosophies I've encountered, I do identify the most with Taoism and I am definitely a naturalist and strongly believe that *everything* is cyclical and connected, but would/does that make me spiritual?

Usually, when I hear people describe themselves as being "spiritual", truth be told, I cringe.

I have definitely had a few experiences that have left me feeling a bit bewildered, but other than that, having also witnessed/observed/studied all the needless suffering, torture, pain, and tragedy inherent to life, from a moral standpoint, I cannot and refuse to believe there is a benevolent force behind, responsible for and or coursing through life.

How do you NFs morally justify the existence of a benevolent force, or god?

:)

Kyrielle

11-13-2008, 10:06 PM

Hmm, of all religions and philosophies I've encountered, I do identify the most with Taoism and I am definitely a naturalist and strongly believe that *everything* is cyclical and connected, but would/does that make me spiritual?

I think so, yes. I believe similar things. I think the trouble is the word spiritual is not always defined clearly.

Hmm. To begin, since the dictionary is a good place to begin defining things:

Spiritual

1. of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal.
2. of or pertaining to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature: a spiritual approach to life.
3. closely akin in interests, attitude, outlook, etc.: the professor's spiritual heir in linguistics.
4. of or pertaining to spirits or to spiritualists; supernatural or spiritualistic.
5. characterized by or suggesting predominance of the spirit; ethereal or delicately refined: She is more of a spiritual type than her rowdy brother.
6. of or pertaining to the spirit as the seat of the moral or religious nature.
7. of or pertaining to sacred things or matters; religious; devotional; sacred.
8. of or belonging to the church; ecclesiastical: lords spiritual and temporal.
9. of or relating to the mind or intellect.

I think on the whole we could agree that the term "spiritual" describes "that which is intangible". Since "spirit" primarily concerns the immaterial, be it mythological, religious, or what-have-you. The immaterial in this case can indeed be dieties, ghosts, the soul, consciousness, thought, etc. We could even consider emotions to fall under that category.

I think you might be associating the term with a lot of New Age beliefs or slightly over-the-top believers of things, and I can understand that. But, I do think Taoists and Buddhists are intensely spiritual people in that they are constantly attempting to understand, and accept the intangible--which is to say their minds, their desires, and all that exists around them.

As for your question:

I do not think whatever runs the universe is benevolent or malevolent. It just is. It acts of its own accord, but is impartial and impersonal. That is what I believe, but I don't even believe that strongly. I don't think I could ever comprehend such a force if it were to present itself to me in a tangible way.

I'm particularly fond of Epicurus' thoughts, which is why I have a famous quote of his in my sig. Epicurus - brought to you by Wiki. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus#Teachings)

For the lazy, this about sums up what I was trying to say, "The gods do not punish the bad and reward the good as the common man believes. The opinion of the crowd is, Epicurus claims, that the gods "send great evils to the wicked and great blessings to the righteous who model themselves after the gods," when in reality Epicurus believes the gods do not concern themselves at all with human beings."

Keep in mind, though, these are just my thoughts on the issue. Others will, undoubtedly, surprise me with their completely different answers. :)

wedekit

11-13-2008, 11:42 PM

I have definitely had a few experiences that have left me feeling a bit bewildered, but other than that, having also witnessed/observed/studied all the needless suffering, torture, pain, and tragedy inherent to life, from a moral standpoint, I cannot and refuse to believe there is a benevolent force behind, responsible for and or coursing through life.

How do you NFs morally justify the existence of a benevolent force, or god?

:)

Yes, the presence of evil in the world is one big obstacle that stood between me and religious belief, and it is something that is a problem for a lot of people. It's a justified objection. Six million Jews dead because of the leadership of one German man? How could God allow a man such as Hitler to exist? However, if Hitler was prevented from doing the things he did by God, what could we say about our existence? Would you say that Hitler had free will? In my opinion, he wouldn't, and chances our none of us would. A higher being that did not allow us to be capable of evil would negate the possibility of free will.

I'm not sure what you mean by "morally justify," or I would attempt to answer it. I'm not even sure how true morals could exist without the existence of a higher being.

Theology isn't as underdeveloped as some seem to believe. There is a wealth of knowledge to be found in it. Catholic Theology isn't all "lovey dovey" and warm feelings, to be honest. That kind of stuff is something you do on your own time, or in some other denomination. I don't think I have met an educated Catholic that actually thinks Hell is a place with fire and little demons running around, or that the Book of Revelations actually predicts the end of the world. I actually couldn't bring myself to believe in God until I had gone through a lot of Theology and Philosophy classes. In these classes I found logic in believing in God, and the answers to some of the questions that prevented me from believing.

The final thing I want to add is that anyone who says that they have never doubted the existence of God is a liar. A priest told me that once.

I'm sure Peguy can put together a much better post than I have in regards to why it isn't unreasonable to have belief. ;)

I feel much more comfortable posting about such personal matters on an NF-only area. I'm sure most of you understand how hurtful it can be to have someone take one of your personal values and say "that's retarded," and then walk away. That's why I normally keep this kind of stuff to myself.

I'll post again if I can think of any other reasons that allow me to believe.

kyuuei

11-14-2008, 02:32 AM

To try and continue a bit. I've had bad things happen.. Seen a lot for someone my age. I'm not going as far to say I've lived in the projects, or even a terrible neighborhood, I had a good upbringing.. but I've had my fair share of stumbles.

My beliefs are that all things require balance.. Just as beautiful, good moral people need to exist, so too do the demonic-minded, selfish assholes that roam this earth. Balance is the biggest, crucial issue centered for me, from everything to why people believe in different gods/beliefs/the lack thereof, to why some people never prosper and people get sick.

You can't breed all good. Nothing comes without a price, in order to maintain balance, which is the security of life as far as I believe. When a good little girl is born that will grow up to do well and live morally, so too will a girl thats destructive to herself and society. No one ever wins, it's just a constant struggle between those trying to survive in their worlds and truths, and that constant struggle creates the value of life we seek and gives us enough that we need to live and survive. It is up to us to create our lives how we see fit, and anything we need and want we are given the power to do so. If we were meant to be rich, we have the power to create that.. just as we have the ability to deprive society of our capabilities.

... Though, I'm not exactly Christian.. so I can't speak for everyone. Those are my personal views.

Peguy

11-14-2008, 02:44 AM

I'm sure Peguy can put together a much better post than I have in regards to why it isn't unreasonable to have belief. ;)

Sorry, I'm not repeating myself for the Xth time and certainly not for this one.

You're better off going about this alone.

Anja

11-14-2008, 05:27 AM

I don't know what you mean by "morally," either, CC. That idea of morality is what caused me to leave organized religion.

Your first paragraph explaines it for me. There is no "morality" in the natural world. It just is. In a circle. Birth, growth, decay, death, rebirth. Just like the Bible teaches. Primitive man figured that out just by taking a look around. That's why I think of the Universe as my bible.

I have total faith that there is a Power which watches over the cycles.

Our job is to be here now and I think, for me, to operate and focus on the growth and life part. And, miracle of miracles, when I do that my life is improved!

Ah, dang, Peguy. You're laffin' at my simplicity. 'fess up. I know you are! ;)

And when I finally found that simplicity in the mystery, I found my faith.

It is what it is. Sounds a lot like "I am that I am" doesn't it?

Peguy

11-14-2008, 05:35 AM

Ah, dang, Peguy. You're laffin' at my simplicity. 'fess up. I know you are! ;)

Yes I must admit I am laughing, but not out of malice. I laugh because your simplicity is so beautiful, I can't help but smile at its insights. :D

Your simplicity reminds me of that of St Thérèse of Lisieux "the Little Flower" (http://www.ewtn.com/therese/therese.htm) - a woman of simple but profound faith.

Anja

11-14-2008, 04:58 PM

Thank you! I am aware of St Therese. By the way, knockout keyboard you've got there.

It's delightful irony that all that organized religion got me to where I am now. I doubt that without it I could have found peace. Or perhaps my curiousity would have driven me down another path.

I once talked to a Lutheran minister at the college and told him I felt awful about my nagging doubts and he responded that "A questioning faith is a living faith." That was the first time I had heard of that concept.

It was such a relief, though didn't soothe me much. Growing up I had been taught to never question; never doubt.

CS Lewis figures in all this somewhere. . . Think it was The Screwtape Lettersthat kickstarted my long journey.

_____________________________________________

wedekit, I went to the thread and realized that it wasn't yours so decided not to post since it wasn't particularly necessary. Just wanted to support a fellow INFP! :smile:

Peguy

11-14-2008, 08:57 PM

Well yes questions actually can be a clear sign of a living faith. If anything it shows that one has the need to know and understand God better, which is what God wants from us all. Nothing is more pathetic than a complacent sense of faith. As Charles Peguy once stated, tragic is the man who never questions his beliefs.

And I can relate very much to your statement about how much organized religion has helped you, since it has helped me as well. During my last years as an atheist, I came to admire and respect many aspects of religion and looked to its teachers for guidance on many of the profound issues in life and the world.

But my embrace of faith does not mean I embrace the stale lifeless form of religion that we see too often in churches. Rather my sense of faith is more vigourous, active, and heroic.

Anyways....I'll stop my incoherent rant here. :redface:

runvardh

11-14-2008, 09:14 PM

Peguy

11-14-2008, 09:44 PM

I find it entertaining that stewardship is not taught as much in it's complete sense as it should be in church. God puts us in charge here and we mock him by wasting it. Actually, what really bothered me during one preaching was the concept that we should not worry about what we've done to the world because God will take care of it. It says in the Bible that he told us to. Anyway, kitty backing off for now. :blush:

LOL....oh don't worry, you made an interesting point here. :)

Yes I agree that the proper Christian attitude towards nature is not emphasized enough these days. Too many Christians actually agree with Ann Coulter's interpretation of: "God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"

This is often taken by others as meaning that Christians are against nature. nothing could be further from the truth. Just look at the story of Noah, where God gave him the responsibility of gathering up all the animals so they're not killed in the flood.

Jesus makes positive references to nature in the Sermon on the Mount: "Behold the birds of the air, for they neither sow, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns: and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not you of much more value than they?" (Matthew 6:26)

Even the Jewish philosopher Martin Buber noted that the I-Thou relationship exists on three levels: Man-nature, Man-Man, Man-God. So while Man technically is superior to nature, that doesn't mean Man is without geniune kinship with nature.

And from a more specifically Catholic position I can offer the example of St. Francis of Assisi, who's renowned for his deep love for nature.

http://lemurianabbey.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/stfrancisinterior__2_.jpg

And on that note, GK Chesterton made this wonderful point:

"The main point of Christianity was this: that Nature is not our mother: Nature is our sister. We can be proud of her beauty, since we have the same father, but she has no authority over us; we have to admire, but not to imitate. This gives to the typically Christian pleasure in this earth a strange touch that is almost frivolity... Nature is not solemn to Francis of Assisi or George Herbert. To St. Francis, Nature is a sister and even a younger sister: a little, dancing sister, to be laughed at as well as loved."
-Orthodoxy, pg. 120

So yes, as Christians let's love our beloved younger sister. :)

runvardh

11-14-2008, 09:54 PM

Eh, older actually, by a few days. :nerd:

I just think if it along the lines of when one is given charge of something they also must be responsable for it.

Anja

11-14-2008, 10:01 PM

Amen, Brothers and Sisters!

*Watching CC cringe.*

But I'll bet you agree, Girl. ;)

So. A question. What exactly is it about acknowledging the spiritual part of your nature that makes you cringe, CC?

You don't buy the wholistic idea of body, mind and spirit? Or is it that you are uncomfortable with hearing what others have to say about theirs? Where's the stumbling block?

Anja

11-14-2008, 10:03 PM

Geez. I've been, crudely put, AWing here all afternoon. Maybe I'll stop being so focussed for a while and play a bit.

SillySapienne

11-14-2008, 10:08 PM

Peguy

11-14-2008, 10:09 PM

Geez. I've been, crudely put, AWing here all afternoon. Maybe I'll stop being so focussed for a while and play a bit.

Maybe you just need to log into MSN. ;)

Anja

11-14-2008, 10:25 PM

Already belong to one of those groups. It's a pain in the pocket. Too many XSTJs. Old ones besides. Heh.

These guys are gonna mentor me into senility? Probably not.

I'm probably going to have to gracefully bow out before I drop into the rut never to scintillate again.

I can't wait to hear what The Chick has to say but I gotta run out and attend to RL for a little while.

Other NFs? Join us.

Peguy

11-14-2008, 10:29 PM

Was that post addressed to me Anja? :confused:

Anja

11-15-2008, 05:52 AM

Was that post addressed to me Anja? :confused:

Both your comment about MSN and to CC.

Looks like no one came back tonight anyway. I went out and ran into some friends and had a good time. Only just got back a little while ago.

Jen sent me a note about Ventrillo and I haven't opened it yet. Putting it off.

These kinds of things are difficult for me. Once I "get it" I'll be okay but it's like facing down the boogey-man to learn anything electronic.

So when I get on you may all assume that I have slain the dragon with considerable blood, sweat and tears.

Gee, that sounds kind of histrionic doesn't it? Wonder if I should call a shrink. . .

I wish someone would start a fun word game or two. Another forum I belonged to for a while had some really bright and funny people and they'd invent amusing and tricky word games.

One we played was "Which Doesn't Belong?" and some could come up with pretty cagey clues. Four of them. Maybe three would be women and one would be a man, three nonAmerican and one American. Various intricate patterns which made guessing fun and sent me to google repeatedly.

Another we played was "Letters From Famous People." And we'd make up funny letters that they may have written.

Maybe some day I'll get motivated to do it myself. Do you think, anyone that others would be interesting in something a little more challeging than word association?

Hah. The MN forum of oldsters I'm with plays "Let's Name a Movie!" That's it. No conversation. Just each post naming a movie. BUT - there is one challenging rule: Only one movie per post. Strictly. So I have to wait twenty-four hours before my turn again. It's excruciating.

Senility may be just around the corner. ;)

Anja

11-15-2008, 05:54 AM

I was lookin' at my new avatar a while ago. Hadn't noticed that red thing in the background until I put it up. I sure hope it's a school bus and not a Portapotty.

Kyrielle

11-15-2008, 06:16 PM

I was lookin' at my new avatar a while ago. Hadn't noticed that red thing in the background until I put it up. I sure hope it's a school bus and not a Portapotty.

I think it's a telephone booth. You know, one of those stereotypically British ones. Like this:

http://z.about.com/d/cruises/1/0/B/z/1/london007.jpg

If it were blue and a little more squarish, I might freak out and wonder if Dr. Who had turned into a cat! :shock:

sade

11-15-2008, 07:01 PM

It is a phonebooth, isn't it?
What is it doing there...? Hmm.

Anja

11-16-2008, 04:53 AM

Yeah. That's really weird. A cat and a phone booth? Not very bucolic is it?

CC? Donde esta's? Musta been one hella cafe con leche.

Your answer doesn't need to be logical or well thought out, ya know. . . :D

SillySapienne

11-16-2008, 05:15 AM

Hahahaa, I have to be in the right mood to talk about this stuff.

Well, to talk about this stuff without getting frustrated, melancholy or angry.

Just waiting for that mood to come.

:)

Anja

11-16-2008, 09:38 PM

K. I get that.

Hey! A new you.

nolla

11-16-2008, 10:42 PM

I feel like ranting now... So, just going to rant here. Excuse me.

I got this job couple of weeks ago. Or more like a project, but for real money and all that. I needed to edit a bunch of tv adds. It's like the first "real" my kind of job I have managed to get. The job was in another city, but I was promised to get a ride there every day, so I figured it isn't a problem. The days were long because all the traveling.

Anyways, my editing was coming along just fine, and I was hoping to finish the job next week. But, last week the guy who I drove there with was sick, and I had to go by train, which cost me like a sixty euros a day, plus the travel time went up to five hours per day, so by thursday I didn't have any money left and I told the producer that I wont make it to work on friday. This night I get a call from another producer that I have been replaced with someone else. He also said he isn't happy for me not to being "up to the responsibility".

What the hell??? I have basically sacrificed myself to get there on time every day. Eight hours of work, five traveling! All my money is gone, I will barely survive till the paycheck comes in. And I am not up to the responsibility... And what's more, he hasn't even seen if my work was good or not. Now it might be that the next guy takes credit for my ideas. It also eats me that the project was left messy because I thought I could clean it all up on monday, so the next guy will be in deep shit with it anyways.

Last week I was so stressed all the time and even now I feel the adrenaline. Is it really worth it? Why don't I just go to a factory or something? I work my ass off and get no credit, I spend all of my money, and I feel like shit when I get home. I don't even remember the last time I've been this stressed over anything. (But I can't say they didn't warn me. There was funny rumors about this company... and it's athmosphere)

SillySapienne

11-16-2008, 10:45 PM

nolla

11-16-2008, 10:51 PM

Life can be so fucked up and unfair sometimes, it just makes you want to go :angry:

Oh, I have been very :angry: ... Friday I was so full of their shit (there was shit before they fired me) that I was actually getting angry at commercials while watching tv.

"If you could have this state-of-the-art plasma tv, would you?"

"NO!" :steam:

Luckily I saw some of the good people that evening and felt better.

Anja

11-17-2008, 03:44 AM

Hah. I make smart comments at the TV and radio when I'm really steaming.

Good to see you.

I see you've still got your horns. Not to worry. They look pretty cute on you and will probably fall off when you get older. . .

Anja

11-17-2008, 02:39 PM

Nolla, if you check back, please look at my thread "Say what you need to say?" in The Bonfire and give your perspective? I'm curious about something from my childhood being Scandinavian in origin.

nolla

11-17-2008, 04:15 PM

Hah. I make smart comments at the TV and radio when I'm really steaming.

The news readers are great. They always tell me to have a nice day.

I see you've still got your horns. Not to worry. They look pretty cute on you and will probably fall off when you get older. . .

I think they been growing the last couple of weeks...

Nolla, if you check back, please look at my thread "Say what you need to say?" in The Bonfire and give your perspective? I'm curious about something from my childhood being Scandinavian in origin.

Will do.

Anja

11-17-2008, 05:07 PM

Am I the only NF who talks to himself - uh - when they're angry enough to dump on someone else?

My cats look up in alarm! :steam:

Silently Honest

11-17-2008, 05:08 PM

No.

Anja

11-17-2008, 05:13 PM

There you go runnin' off at the mouth again SH!

I used to have a high-stress job and sometimes on the drive home I'd scream to relieve tension. One day after work I looked in my rearview mirror and saw the woman behind me, a very self-contained, quiet and efficient social worker had her mouth wide open in an apparent bellow.

nolla

11-17-2008, 05:17 PM

Am I the only NF who talks to himself - uh - when they're angry enough to dump on someone else?

I talk a lot to myself when I'm angry. I also go through discussions that have made me mad and think about how I should have done or said. Or I might imagine the next discussion with the annoying person and think up the best ways to get my point across (or insult them).

Silently Honest

11-17-2008, 05:18 PM

She couldv'e been yawning.

Anja

11-17-2008, 05:19 PM

Yeah, she coulda been. . .

nolla

11-17-2008, 05:21 PM

She couldv'e been yawning.

And from her perspective, Anja could have been singing:

Cannibal Corpse

Anja

11-18-2008, 07:11 AM

Hee. Now that I think about it, that's probably what I was doing, after all. Singing. Yeah. Singing.

I was reading in a couple of debate threads tonight and wondering why they strike me as stilted. And it came to me:

When I was in college taking classes to teach me how to be a teacher (which, by the way don't help much in the long run. Learning by doing is better, for me.) Anyway. I remember thinking that people who spend a lot of time telling people what they shouldn't believe are as tiresome to me as people who collar me on the street and tell me what I should believe.

Walk into a classroom full of kids and presenting yourself as the ultimate authority and that you are going to prove to them why they are misguided (read dumb) is a good way to close every ear in the room pronto. And probably also to have a tough time maintaining any semblance of learning atmosphere.

People, and as I remember students usually fit into that category, like to present their ideas and have them considered with respect. So do teachers, by the way. So how does anybody learn anything by being told they are wrong? As I remember, they usually don't.

That's what bums me out about debate. It's an interesting art form and some do it very well, probably to keep their brains well exercised and limber, but I doubt that anyone is ever converted, pro or con, by attempts to prove superiority over them.

Anja

11-19-2008, 03:33 AM

Nolla, I just came back to watch the whole video.

No, that wasn't what my decompressing looked like. That was what the job looked like!

nolla

11-19-2008, 10:23 AM

That's what bums me out about debate. It's an interesting art form and some do it very well, probably to keep their brains well exercised and limber, but I doubt that anyone is ever converted, pro or con, by attempts to prove superiority over them.

Reasoning as a way to prove yourself superior. I guess I haven't thought about it like that. I know I do it myself sometimes. I value some of my own ideas enough to make them part of me. Then it will be like I was defending myself and not my ideas. It helps when you think about how improbable it is you could have a unique idea...

Nolla, I just came back to watch the whole video.

No, that wasn't what my decompressing looked like. That was what the job looked like!

You watched the whole video?! I guess I'll have to watch it too...