Mistyped TypeCentral Members

[Orangey]

I do not see how you can successfuly seperate functions from 'directions of functions'. In order to reject the clause of 'directions of functions' you must abrogate the distinction between Introversion and Extroversion.

Why?

[entropie]

Maybe BW's intuition is more reserved. And when he speaks, he has already made up his mind.

I would not call this the best of approaches to a problem, but I can clearly see that he is open to discussion.

And my ISTJ pal is only open to diskussion, if you break him

[Jack Flak]

I do not see how you can successfuly seperate functions from 'directions of functions'. In order to reject the clause of 'directions of functions' you must abrogate the distinction between Introversion and Extroversion.

This you have not done.
You are correct. I thought I would be going too far, and also rehashing old ground by defining the difference between introversion and extroversion and how it relates to function use.

For the time being, I think it's acceptable to stack the traits. Person X is Introverted, and is Thinking/Sensing. Person Y is Extroverted, and is Intuition/Thinking, etcetera. To define a specific correlation is taking a very large step, and I hesitate because that's the kind of thing I was trying to get away from.

And my ISTJ pal is only open to diskussion, if you break him
Now you're defining ISTJs based on one person? Shame on you, entropie!

[entropie]

That makes no sense does it ?

I wanted to say, maybe BW tries to project an aura of definiteness, to shed some security onto the topic. And that projection hides connections he has drawn beforehand.

That would be a noble cause and we will go to hell for picking him

[locke]

Maybe BW's intuition is more reserved. And when he speaks, he has already made up his mind.

I believe this would make him INTJ (using MBTI, not JFTI).

[SolitaryWalker]

Why?

If you say I am a Thinking type and also I am an Introvert, it means that you use Thinking primarily in the realm of Introversion.

Introvert/Extrovert distinction is primarily concerned with showing how we derive energy. In the case of the Introvert, it is through solitary contemplation, in the case of the Extrovert, it is through interaction with the external world.

Thus, if we have the concept of a Thinker and an Introvert, we maintain that the Thinker in question is most easily inspired to think when he/she is alone. When we maintain that one is an Extroverted Thinker, we claim that one is most easily inspired to Think in activities which involve interaction with the external world.

Clearly, the concept of Introversion and Extroversion specifies direction of the functions. In order to claim that functions lack directions, this concept must be abrogated.

[SolitaryWalker]

I believe this would make him INTJ (using MBTI, not JFTI).

In MBTI notation, INTJ is Ni-Te.

Their dominant function is Intuition, the Intuition is not reserved at all in this case.

In socionics (and Jack's system) INTJ is the notation for Ti-Ne, where Intuition is reserved because it is a secondary function.

[entropie]

I believe this would make him INTJ (using MBTI, not JFTI).

true.

I am just not sure, if we know him personally enough to judge him

at least I dont

[Jack Flak]

I wanted to say, maybe BW tries to project an aura of definiteness, to shed some security onto the topic. And that projection hides connections he has drawn beforehand.
This is the nature of an intelligent Thinking Primary. It's related to both of these things independently, for the record.

I believe this would make him INTJ (using MBTI, not JFTI).
Or ISTJ.

If you say I am a Thinking type and also I am an Introvert, it means that you use Thinking primarily in the realm of Introversion.
I would say that's likely, but it's hard to define. And I'm Intuition Primary, yet also an Introvert, but Intuition is a Perceiving function, and related to input from the outside world. My typical state is one of quiet observation and contemplation.

[locke]

In MBTI notation, INTJ is Ni-Te.

Their dominant function is Intuition, the Intuition is not reserved at all in this case.

In socionics (and Jack's system) INTJ is the notation for Ti-Ne, where Intuition is reserved because it is a secondary function.

I think entropie meant that the expression of the intuition was reserved. You spend much of the time using your intuition introvertedly, but then once you come to a conclusion you express it with your extroverted judgement. This is the jist of MBTI, is it not?

[entropie]

yeah that would be another possibility, invent a new system.

See that's why I hate this shit, physics is linear, psychology sucks.

I have come to develop an understanding of how Ni works within my special one and it really fits some sort of system.

But if you portray it onto you BW in this case Ni - Te makes absolutely no sense.

But maybe it does and we do underestimate the power of this connection. Your books and texts are at least well structured and organized to be read. Maybe Te has more abilities than a Ti user would be willing to admit.

[Jack Flak]

But if you portray it onto you BW in this case Ni - Te makes absolutely no sense.
Ni-Te never makes sense, unless it's simply defined as "How INTJs' brains work." That's why I scrapped it and made a new system. ;)

[entropie]

It is a hard thing yes.

But I wouldnt rule out the possibility that such things do no work.

My special one has Ni-Fe primary and she is a judgemental character. But you wont trust your eyes, how fast you can open her mind for new things, if you know better on things. And you wont trust your eyes also, how often that does not work :D

[Jack Flak]

It is a hard thing yes.

But I wouldnt rule out the possibility that such things do no work.

My special one has Ni-Fe primary and she is a judgemental character. But you wont trust your eyes, how fast you can open her mind for new things, if you know better on things. And you wont trust your eyes also, how often that does not work :D
Yes, INFJ. You admit she has a Judging nature. I propose that the "Ni" you see is moderate intuition input being constantly processed by dominant Feeling.

[entropie]

not really and that's the thing. If I for example want to convince a dominant rational of a thing he sees as being dumb, it can take me years and I never succeed.

With her it can be the same thing or it can be not. Sometimes we talk like we were two entps and sometimes we dont. I cant pinpoint down what makes her tick that way.

The thing is, she can be totally judgemental in times. And then again she can be totally different.

And this whole thing changes haphazardly.

[Jack Flak]

not really and that's the thing. If I for example want to convince a dominant rational of a thing he sees as being dumb, it can take me years and I never succeed.

With her it can be the same thing or it can be not. Sometimes we talk like we were two entps and sometimes we dont. I cant pinpoint down what makes her tick that way.

The thing is, she can be totally judgemental in times. And then again she can be totally different.

And this whole thing changes haphazardly.
I propose that this is called being Human. Additionally, Feeling Primaries may (or may not) concede logical arguments because they trust the rationality of the person they are interacting with, and realize it is not their greatest strength.

[Haphazard]

And this whole thing changes haphazardly.

And now you know where I got my name.

[Orangey]

If you say I am a Thinking type and also I am an Introvert, it means that you use Thinking primarily in the realm of Introversion.

Introvert/Extrovert distinction is primarily concerned with showing how we derive energy. In the case of the Introvert, it is through solitary contemplation, in the case of the Extrovert, it is through interaction with the external world.

Thus, if we have the concept of a Thinker and an Introvert, we maintain that the Thinker in question is most easily inspired to think when he/she is alone. When we maintain that one is an Extroverted Thinker, we claim that one is most easily inspired to Think in activities which involve interaction with the external world.

Clearly, the concept of Introversion and Extroversion specifies direction of the functions. In order to claim that functions lack directions, this concept must be abrogated.

Speaking to the bolded part: does this necessarily change the nature of the function itself? Does the mechanism of thinking change because of its direction? And if so, how? Which ways of thinking are extroverted, and which are introverted?

It seems to me that the only time the distinction can be clearly made is when, say, an INTJ uses logic and people call it Te because MBTI says that it is so. But when an INTP uses logic (and it could be the exact same 'logic'...there are not seperate 'logics' for Ti and Te, and those who claim that there are fail to define exactly what the difference is), people call it Ti because that's what the MBTI function theory says it is.

I think even you, BW, have experienced this confusion when people started calling you INTJ because your logic was somehow more "linear" than the supposedly mystical Ti logic.

[entropie]

I propose that this is called being Human. Additionally, Feeling Primaries may (or may not) concede logical arguments because they trust the rationality of the person they are interacting with, and realize it is not their greatest strength.

I dont think that this can be explained that way.

[Jack Flak]

I dont think that this can be explained that way.
CAN TOO! CAN TOO! lol.

[entropie]

God, I was searching for a lighter for my cigarette for half an hour now and then I found it. 4 matches in a package that must be a hundred years old.

That was BW demistyfied :D

[SolitaryWalker]

Speaking to the bolded part: does this necessarily change the nature of the function itself? Does the mechanism of thinking change because of its direction? And if so, how? Which ways of thinking are extroverted, and which are introverted?

It seems to me that the only time the distinction can be clearly made is when, say, an INTJ uses logic and people call it Te because MBTI says that it is so. But when an INTP uses logic (and it could be the exact same 'logic'...there are not seperate 'logics' for Ti and Te, and those who claim that there are fail to define exactly what the difference is), people call it Ti because that's what the MBTI function theory says it is. .

I think even you, BW, have experienced this confusion when people started calling you INTJ because your logic was somehow more "linear" than the supposedly mystical Ti logic.


The essence of a function does not change. Thinking remains Thinking, it never gets mystical, however it may appear mystical to others.

I never argued that the essence of a function changes by its direction. Direction is an additional component to the function. What this means is Introverted Thinking is most easily stimulated by ideas that are abstract in nature (such as mathematics and philosophy), yet Extroverted Thinking is more easily stimulated by problems that are ostensible in the external world.

I think even you, BW, have experienced this confusion when people started calling you INTJ because your logic was somehow more "linear" than the supposedly mystical Ti logic.

Mystical logic is an oxymoron. Logic is completely objective. All of its procedures are always clearly outlined and are linear. As we have established earlier, Ti and Te are the same piece, therefore there is no reason to call Ti logic mystical.

The difference between me and other Ti doms is simply that I am more comfortable voicing my thoughts than they are. Ti logic is deemed mystical by others because Tis often do not voice their thoughts in public as explicitly as Te doms.

The salient difference between an extroverted mindset and an introverted mindset is that the former adapts to external environments and therefore becomes comfortable in them. An introverted mindset instead sticks to his modus operandi and does not become comfortable until the environment is more accomodating to him.

We voice our thoughts in environments we are most comfortable in. Extroverted Thinker is comfortable in almost all environments because he adapts to them. Thus he consistently voices his thoughts.

The Introverted Thinker does not in most cases. I do because the subjects I discuss here are those that I am comfortable with.

An important note: Ti-Ne and Te-Ni at the essence are the same type, however, the way they relate to the external world is obviously different quite simply because they have different approaches to the external world.

2 questions.

1)What the hell is mystical logic?
2) How did you figure I maintained that the essence of a function is changed by direction?

[SolitaryWalker]

I think entropie meant that the expression of the intuition was reserved. You spend much of the time using your intuition introvertedly, but then once you come to a conclusion you express it with your extroverted judgement. This is the jist of MBTI, is it not?

My ideas are not a result of Intuition, they are a result of careful analysis.

Analysis always held primacy over intuition in my thought. The Ni-Te mindset gravitates towards holding the two in reverse order.

[Jack Flak]

Jen: ESFJ, certainty: moderate to high. xSFJ, certainty: very high.

Extreme Feeling Judgment dominance of psyche, so obviously Feeling Primary. This leaves ESFJ, ISFJ, ENFJ, and INFJ.

Intuition is sidelined...The lack of Intuition implies Sensing, and her motivation and style is like that of Sensors and SJs as a rule. Which leaves ESFJ and ISFJ.

The importance of sociability, at least in intent, implies Extroversion, which leaves us with ESFJ.

[SolitaryWalker]

You are correct. I thought I would be going too far, and also rehashing old ground by defining the difference between introversion and extroversion and how it relates to function use.

For the time being, I think it's acceptable to stack the traits. Person X is Introverted, and is Thinking/Sensing. Person Y is Extroverted, and is Intuition/Thinking, etcetera. To define a specific correlation is taking a very large step, and I hesitate because that's the kind of thing I was trying to get away from.!


I certainly agree that assigning direction to each function appears fuzzy. However, this matter warrants further consideration.

If we see that someone is clearly an Introvert, but also a clearly a Thinking type. This means that their primary modus operandi is Thinking and it operates most easily in the context of Introversion ( as we have established that Introversion represents what environment we are most easily energized in).

Thus, because the two are highly emphasized, they are inseparable from one another.

Proposition 1: Since Thinking is prevalent in the realm of Introversion, Feeling must be most supressed. (Principle of functional antithesis)

Proposition 2: Since Thinking is a judging function it is antithetical with perceiving functions (principle of functional antithesis). Therefore a perceiving function most also be heavily supressed in the realm of Introversion.

One may argue that because Thinking is the dominant function, it must be highly influential in the psyche of the Ti-Ne type.

That is true.

However, what we notice is that the Introverted Thinker is highly organized in his abstract Thinking, yet has a very low natural predilection towards organization of concrete, external entities. This means that his Thinking is not easily stimulated by the external, physical entities (therefore not akin to Te).

Te however, still mus remain very strong in the psyche of the Thinker simply becuase this is a dominant function.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Inevitably the Introverted Thinking type is forced to interact with the external environment. However, he cannot do so by means of the Thinking faculty because it is intensely focused on the inner life and is not easily responsive to external, concrete, physically oriented stimuli. Therefore the only other way the INTP may interact with the external environment is through the perceiving function.

Thus, the salient perceiving function must necessarily be Extroverted. Once the element of Extroversion is engaged in the mind of the Introverted Thinking type, all Extroverted faculties are engaged.

Once Extroverted Intuition is engaged, the very strong Extroverted Thinking could also be engaged.

A more precise way to describe this phenomenon would be to simply claim that Extroverted Intuition has drawn Thinking outwards to the extent, or has made it possible for the Introverted Thinking to be engaged through direct external stimuli.

Hence, what we have is not an inception of a new function that we may call Extroverted Thinking, but merely Thinking starting to turn outwards.

To simplify this matter, I have before argued that Te is a dormant function, and is activated in the mind of the Ti-Ne type when Ne is stimulated.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another important note is the salient perceiving function for the Introverted Thinking must be Extroverted and not Introverted (as we see Ne is the strongest perceiving function, not Ni). This is the case because the influence of perceiving functions has been supressed in the inner life of the Introverted Thinking type, and because Introverted Thinking by its nature is intensely focused on the inner life, the Introverted Thinking type is forced to deal with the external world by means of perceiving faculties.

[Jack Flak]

You are doing a decent job of describing Ti in the context of MBTI. If you would like to get to know my disagreement with these concepts, I think I've said just about everything I can in my function system thread.

One point is that the INTP is more interested in Perception than in Judging (as slightly redefined), so I think it's a mistake to call the INTP Thinking Primary.

[SolitaryWalker]

You are doing a decent job of describing Ti in the context of MBTI. If you would like to get to know my disagreement with these concepts, I think I've said just about everything I can in my function system thread.

One point is that the INTP is more interested in Perception than in Judging (as slightly redefined), so I think it's a mistake to call the INTP Thinking Primary.

I am describing Ti from the standpoint of Jungian typology. I am not even clear on what MBTI is.

What you seem to regard as the INTP is the Ni-Te type. There is no reason to call a Ti-Ne type a dominant perceiving type. The term dominant refers strictly to the primary function which is Thinking. It is a judging function, not a perceiving function.

[Orangey]

The essence of a function does not change. Thinking remains Thinking, it never gets mystical, however it may appear mystical to others.

I never argued that the essence of a function changes by its direction. Direction is an additional component to the function. What this means is Introverted Thinking is most easily stimulated by ideas that are abstract in nature (such as mathematics and philosophy), yet Extroverted Thinking is more easily stimulated by problems that are ostensible in the external world.



Mystical logic is an oxymoron. Logic is completely objective. All of its procedures are always clearly outlined and are linear. As we have established earlier, Ti and Te are the same piece, therefore there is no reason to call Ti logic mystical.

The difference between me and other Ti doms is simply that I am more comfortable voicing my thoughts than they are. Ti logic is deemed mystical by others because Tis often do not voice their thoughts in public as explicitly as Te doms.

The salient difference between an extroverted mindset and an introverted mindset is that the former adapts to external environments and therefore becomes comfortable in them. An introverted mindset instead sticks to his modus operandi and does not become comfortable until the environment is more accomodating to him.

We voice our thoughts in environments we are most comfortable in. Extroverted Thinker is comfortable in almost all environments because he adapts to them. Thus he consistently voices his thoughts.

The Introverted Thinker does not in most cases. I do because the subjects I discuss here are those that I am comfortable with.

An important note: Ti-Ne and Te-Ni at the essence are the same type, however, the way they relate to the external world is obviously different quite simply because they have different approaches to the external world.

2 questions.

1)What the hell is mystical logic?
2) How did you figure I maintained that the essence of a function is changed by direction?

1. No clue. It's just the overall impression I got (not from you) from others, and from certain function descriptions sites, when they tried to explain the difference between Te and Ti. Many seem to claim that Ti is more of a non-linear, intuitive type of logic (don't ask me to name names, I have no idea). I didn't say that you thought Ti was mystical.

I mentioned it because I believe the confusion to be relevant to the motivation for changing the theory up.

2. Well, if it isn't then we don't need to hang on to distinctions such as Ti and Te, or Ni and Ne. We need merely note that someone is either introverted or extroverted (by the E or I at the beginning of their type code) and this will tell us enough about the conditions under which the thinking or intuition function is used by that person (depending on which one is dominant). We won't need to bother ourselves over which observed behaviors count as Te, and which as Ti. Or with which subjects a Ti dom or Te dom would be most interested in. Or any other function.

To answer your question specifically, though, you're right, you never said anything to that effect. I was carrying on my own argument that if the function isn't different because of its direction, then it is confusing to label and define them separately (and often in very different operational terms). And when the theory becomes more confusing, it becomes less useful. Therefore we would do well to drop the little "e's" and "i's" that get appended to the ends of functions.

[Jack Flak]

I am describing Ti from the standpoint of Jungian typology. I am not even clear on what MBTI is.

What you seem to regard as the INTP is the Ni-Te type. There is no reason to call a Ti-Ne type a dominant perceiving type. The term dominant refers strictly to the primary function which is Thinking. It is a judging function, not a perceiving function.
Yes, I'm also referring to Jungian functions. The functions used with MBTI.

The closest thing I could come up with to describe INTP in Jungian functional terminology is: Ne-Ti, Introverted (Whereas the ENTP is Extroverted). But it takes the new system to describe it exactly as I see it.

[Eileen]

Risen, I suspect, is INFJ. I probably won't bother to substantiate that, though, 'cause it's time to go to work.

[Jen]

Jack once again you are incorrect with your assumptions. I am not social at all but you wouldn't know that since you do not know me. Getting together several times a year with a group of people (some of who are friends irl) hardly constitutes extroversion. I only have a few close friends (by choice) and when I do go out it's straight there and straight back home again. I met my husband and bff online and avoid people most of the time. What you see isn't always what you get.

If we're being honest I believe you know referring to me a sensor irritates me. It's a practically effortless way to get at me (any moron who can read knows this) and you've chosen to use it this several times now.

I am now finished with the what type is Jen conversation as Rajah was 100% correct in stating several months ago how little it really matters. I'm rarely around here much anymore and it appears you've found yourself an audience so enjoy. Also best wishes on your journey of reaching 10,000 posts by Christmas.

[booyalab]

I am now finished with the what type is Jen conversation as Rajah was 100% correct in stating several months ago how little it really matters.

haha. Yeah you've made that perfectly clear with this post. :huh:

Btw, most introverts are much better than you at hiding the fact that something upsets them.

[Jen]

haha. Yeah you've made that perfectly clear with this post. :huh:

Btw, most introverts are much better than you at hiding the fact that something upsets them.Aren't you and Jack room mates or dating? That was brought up recently but the link wasn't clear.

I am 39 years old most of which was spent feeling alone and unhappy prior to meeting my husband and getting away from my overbearing ISFJ mother so now instead of internalizing everything, I now often say like it is. To me that's not extroversion. Again there's more to most people than what's on the surface.

[MadamI'madaM]

Ha!

Before clicking, I thought, "well, at least over here it probably won't amount to people calling people they don't like sensors."

Live and learn.

[cafe]

Jen: ESFJ, certainty: moderate to high. xSFJ, certainty: very high.

Extreme Feeling Judgment dominance of psyche, so obviously Feeling Primary. This leaves ESFJ, ISFJ, ENFJ, and INFJ.

Intuition is sidelined...The lack of Intuition implies Sensing, and her motivation and style is like that of Sensors and SJs as a rule. Which leaves ESFJ and ISFJ.

The importance of sociability, at least in intent, implies Extroversion, which leaves us with ESFJ.
She doesn't lack intuition or introversion as much as she has gotten over the high-self-monitoring many IXFX women engage in. It comes from getting sick of people and their stupid judgments based on trivial things -- women, especially mothers, are subjected to a lot of that kind of thing -- and eventually you realize you're doing pretty darn well and they can take a flying leap if they don't like it. Still stings, but you aren't going to let it rule you.

You talk about her motivation -- what do you perceive her motivation to be?

[proteanmix]

She doesn't lack intuition or introversion as much as she has gotten over the high-self-monitoring many IXFX women engage in. It comes from getting sick of people and their stupid judgments based on trivial things -- women, especially mothers, are subjected to a lot of that kind of thing -- and eventually you realize you're doing pretty darn well and they can take a flying leap if they don't like it. Still stings, but you aren't going to let it rule you.

You talk about her motivation -- what do you perceive her motivation to be?

It's most definitely interesting to watch Monseigneur Flak dissect a person's psyche. The flailing and floundering are what I enjoy the most. :D

[Sytpg]

Quick, what's the type most proficient with BS?

[Haphazard]

Quick, what's the type most proficient with BS?

ENTP.

[Sytpg]

ENTP.

ENTP's a plenty, then!

[Jack Flak]

She doesn't lack intuition or introversion as much as she has gotten over the high-self-monitoring many IXFX women engage in. It comes from getting sick of people and their stupid judgments based on trivial things -- women, especially mothers, are subjected to a lot of that kind of thing -- and eventually you realize you're doing pretty darn well and they can take a flying leap if they don't like it. Still stings, but you aren't going to let it rule you.

You talk about her motivation -- what do you perceive her motivation to be?
Her motivation, academically speaking, is similar to what I've stated. It's primarily to pass judgment based on emotional criteria working in tandem with the obvious. Picking up on intents and nuances is not a strength, so there is likely a preference for the concrete. Additionally, creating the type of social environment she prefers is very important. Very ESFJ trait (Though ISFJ to a lesser extent). Intertype dynamics are a factor here, as the INTP wants nothing to do with the "ESFJ environment." There is an almost palpaple repulsion. Slightly less so for the ISFJ environment, which is why this type is also a possibility.

However. If not xSFJ, something has gone wrong psychologically, because Intuition is functioning improperly. Hypothetically, this could explain the perverse dominance of Feeling in the psyche, to the partial exclusion of the Support function, whether it be Intution or Sensing. The Thinking function has been denied connection with a Perceiving function.

[Santtu]

Jen:
..
The importance of sociability, at least in intent, implies Extroversion, which leaves us with ESFJ.
Agreed.

Edit: with the reservation that Jen herself has another opinion, and I'll respect that.

[cafe]

Her motivation, academically speaking, is similar to what I've stated. It's primarily to pass judgment based on emotional criteria working in tandem with the obvious. Picking up on intents and nuances is not a strength, so there is likely a preference for the concrete. Additionally, creating the type of social environment she prefers is very important. Very ESFJ trait (Though ISFJ to a lesser extent). Intertype dynamics are a factor here, as the INTP wants nothing to do with the "ESFJ environment." There is an almost palpaple repulsion. Slightly less so for the ISFJ environment, which is why this type is also a possibility.

However. If not xSFJ, something has gone wrong psychologically, because Intuition is functioning improperly. Hypothetically, this could explain the perverse dominance of Feeling in the psyche, to the partial exclusion of the Support function, whether it be Intution or Sensing. The Thinking function has been denied connection with a Perceiving function.
No. I mean, I know Jen comes off as a certain way on the forums, but you're getting a pretty small slice of the whole person. She may have more of an ES persona online that a lot of other INs, but she's also a very private person, so there's a lot that you don't see here. Your data is insufficient and it is throwing off your conclusions.

[Jack Flak]

No. I mean, I know Jen comes off as a certain way on the forums, but you're getting a pretty small slice of the whole person. She may have more of an ES persona online that a lot of other INs, but she's also a very private person, so there's a lot that you don't see here. Your data is insufficient and it is throwing off your conclusions.
You are also a Feeling Primary, however you have Intuition in support. It's obvious to me already (As an Intuition Primary with Thinking in support) that your Intuition is fully engaged, just as with every other actual INFJ I can think of. Many other things are obvious to me that won't be obvious to a Judging Primary. You assume I need a closer look to see the picture, but I have a telescope.

ESFJs can be private.

[Haphazard]

*methinks the only reason the new JFTI was created was to justify even more condescension to J types*

[CaptainChick]

Her motivation, academically speaking, is similar to what I've stated. It's primarily to pass judgment based on emotional criteria working in tandem with the obvious. Picking up on intents and nuances is not a strength, so there is likely a preference for the concrete. Additionally, creating the type of social environment she prefers is very important. Very ESFJ trait (Though ISFJ to a lesser extent). Intertype dynamics are a factor here, as the INTP wants nothing to do with the "ESFJ environment." There is an almost palpaple repulsion. Slightly less so for the ISFJ environment, which is why this type is also a possibility.

However. If not xSFJ, something has gone wrong psychologically, because Intuition is functioning improperly. Hypothetically, this could explain the perverse dominance of Feeling in the psyche, to the partial exclusion of the Support function, whether it be Intution or Sensing. The Thinking function has been denied connection with a Perceiving function.
Jack, seriously, like W-T-F??!?!?

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU!!!

:huh:

Reading this post makes me want to fling poop in your general direction, preferably your face.

DO YOU EVEN KNOW JEN?!?!?

INTERACT WITH HER?!?!?

^Those are rhetorical.

Because the answer is obviously no, you neither know Jen and you hardly ever interact with her. So why the fuck are you trying to tell her who she is and why?? :huh:

You are sooooooooooo quick to put people down, and it is people like this, people like you, who ironically have the *most* apparent problems.

I don't know if everyone is being nice because they feel bad for you, or if we are all just a buttload more mature than you, but most of us, and certainly myself, for the most part, have thus far kept our opinions of you to ourselves.

It is one thing for you to throw personal insults my way but if I keep on seeing you do this to other members, you can bet your ass that I will lose my cool and HAPPILY get an infraction for telling you off.

K, schnookems?

- CC

:smooch:

[booyalab]

Aren't you and Jack room mates or dating? That was brought up recently but the link wasn't clear. we're cellmates.


I am 39 years old most of which was spent feeling alone and unhappy prior to meeting my husband and getting away from my overbearing ISFJ mother so now instead of internalizing everything, I now often say like it is. To me that's not extroversion. Again there's more to most people than what's on the surface. So when you were sad you internalized everything and now that you're happier you're more outgoing.

[cafe]

You are also a Feeling Primary, however you have Intuition in support. It's obvious to me already (As an Intuition Primary with Thinking in support) that your Intuition is fully engaged, just as with every other actual INFJ I can think of. Many other things are obvious to me that won't be obvious to a Judging Primary. You assume I need a closer look to see the picture, but I have a telescope.

ESFJs can be private.
ESFJs can indeed be private. My point is, the stuff you don't see because she is private is the data you lack. I don't think you need a closer look. I think you are holding a magnifying glass over a small portion of the big picture that reinforces your preconceived ideas about someone who happens to disagree with and annoy you.

[CaptainChick]

ESFJs can indeed be private. My point is, the stuff you don't see because she is private is the data you lack. I don't think you need a closer look. I think you are holding a magnifying glass over a small portion of the big picture that reinforces your preconceived ideas about someone who happens to disagree with and annoy you.
Yep!

[Aimahn]

This thread brings a smile to my face. So many strong emotions flooding through posts its marvelous. It almost makes me want to try my hand at eliciting them purposefully, I won't add anything personal or specific to these discussions, but I will say it is somewhat evident reading the posts themselves.

[proteanmix]

Jack, seriously, like W-T-F??!?!?

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU!!!

:huh:

Reading this post makes me want to fling poop in your general direction, preferably your face.

DO YOU EVEN KNOW JEN?!?!?

INTERACT WITH HER?!?!?

^Those are rhetorical.

Because the answer is obviously no, you neither know Jen and you hardly ever interact with her. So why the fuck are you trying to tell her who she is and why?? :huh:

You are sooooooooooo quick to put people down, and it is people like this, people like you, who ironically have the *most* apparent problems.

I don't know if everyone is being nice because they feel bad for you, or if we are all just a buttload more mature than you, but most of us, and certainly myself, for the most part, have thus far kept our opinions of you to ourselves.

It is one thing for you to throw personal insults my way but if I keep on seeing you do this to other members, you can bet your ass that I will lose my cool and HAPPILY get an infraction for telling you off.

K, schnookems?

- CC

:smooch:

I like what CC said so much that I'm going to publicly agree with her.

Jack I know you think you're the bees knees, but please sit down. Please.

[Jack Flak]

ESFJs can indeed be private. My point is, the stuff you don't see because she is private is the data you lack. I don't think you need a closer look. I think you are holding a magnifying glass over a small portion of the big picture that reinforces your preconceived ideas about someone who happens to disagree with and annoy you.
I think you fail to understand my position. I always take typing people seriously. My reasoning for typing Jen was to better understand her intent, demeanor, and style. The only way to describe these three things that I'm aware of is to define her as xSFJ, likely ESFJ.

I'm quite adept at typing from a distance. Ask around the forum.

[booyalab]

Somehow I don't think that as many people would be rushing to my defense if someone typed me as ESFJ in this thread. Is it because I don't hate ESFJs as much as Jen? Is it because I don't come across as one online?
If it's not ok to assess someone as a type they hate, maybe we should make that clear in the OP. Otherwise people might get the wrong idea that any type assessment goes, as long as they can back it up.

[Jen]

we're cellmates.

So when you were sad you internalized everything and now that you're happier you're more outgoing.I wouldn't say I was sad back then and I wouldn't call what I am now "happy", (I certainly don't walk around smiling) but I am more comfortable in my own skin. Content even. As a child I was very withdrawn and painfully shy. It took many years to pull myself out of that place.

The person who knows me better than anyone is my Husband and there's no way he'd be married to an extrovert let alone an ESFJ. Cafe also knows me very well so I am comfortable with her assessment of what type she believes me to be. We speak regularly and often discuss our future plans all the way up to us living in the same old folks home playing scrabble.

I also question whether or not I am completely J these days. I do my best to avoid obligations or reservations of my time. I am also homeschooling our son because the school system has failed us and choose a non secular homeschool group to avoid the SJ mentality. I am hardly a rigid mother but there are times when I have to work at being more structured for their own well being plus it's what society expects of me. However I can see based on my posting style, there being some confusion as to my type. I am not an easy person to pin down type wise so it's best to move on to someone else.

[Haphazard]

Jack Flak: ENTP

[Jack Flak]

...I am not an easy person to pin down type wise so it's best to move on to someone else.
This is incorrect, and also happens to be a view more common of SJs than any other Keirseyan temperament.

[Haphazard]

In an attempt to reconcile his perceived introversion with his dominant extroverted intuition, Jack Flak created a new system in which INTPs, his claimed type, were 'intuitive primaries', and therefore solved the problem.

Little did he know that many ENTPs can also behave quite introvertedly, and that his system, if used alongside MBTI, would only screw up the typing of all ENTPs after him...

[ptgatsby]

I wouldn't say I was sad back then and I wouldn't call what I am now "happy", (I certainly don't walk around smiling) but I am more comfortable in my own skin. Content even. As a child I was very withdrawn and painfully shy. It took many years to pull myself out of that place.

The person who knows me better than anyone is my Husband and there's no way he'd be married to an extrovert let alone an ESFJ. Cafe also knows me very well so I am comfortable with her assessment of what type she believes me to be. We speak regularly and often discuss our future plans all the way up to us living in the same old folks home playing scrabble.

I also question whether or not I am completely J these days. I do my best to avoid obligations or reservations of my time. I am also homeschooling our son because the school system has failed us and choose a non secular homeschool group to avoid the SJ mentality. I am hardly a rigid mother but there are times when I have to work at being more structured for their own well being plus it's what society expects of me. However I can see based on my posting style, there being some confusion as to my type. I am not an easy person to pin down type wise so it's best to move on to someone else.

Jen, just ignore them. This is a left over from personal conflict and has no bearing on your type. Everything you have described is accurate - if it represents you, it represents your type... just as I have known several ESFJs in my life and gotten to know them very well, nothing in your attitude or posts suggests it, and your description of yourself confirms it.

You are the best judge of your type. Shrug off amateur at-a-distance online typers who you have a recent history with.

[Jennifer]

...I'm quite adept at typing from a distance. Ask around the forum.

You are?

Okay: What does everyone think of Jack's ability to type people at distance? (Or should I start a new thread?)

I also question whether or not I am completely J these days.

No one is completely one or the other. But I would say that you're definitely more Je than most people I meet, and I think any issues I might have had earlier with you almost always involved your Je and my Pe not getting along. But it doesn't really matter, I don't need to know type in order to relate to you.

Somehow I don't think that as many people would be rushing to my defense if someone typed me as ESFJ in this thread. Is it because I don't hate ESFJs as much as Jen? Is it because I don't come across as one online?

Well, you're not ESFJ, so much so it's just not even worth arguing with someone about it if they actually would think that.

You also haven't been as active here as Jen has, so perhaps people skip over you.

And sure, the less you protest, the less anyone cares. Protesting tends to polarize the issue and draw out opinions; we know that just from watching the ongoing elections. There is no argument unless two people are arguing.

If it's not ok to assess someone as a type they hate, maybe we should make that clear in the OP. Otherwise people might get the wrong idea that any type assessment goes, as long as they can back it up.

Decency on both ends is nice. If someone's have a hard time, as a community member I'd want to back off, since the thread is supposed to be informative, not caustic or demoralizing; if they can't deal, I don't see a point in rubbing their noses in it. However, I'd also want to watch myself and just choose to accept some people will have a different opinion of my type and just leave the discussion myself if it got too much for me. I know that can be hard, sometimes, though; I've been working at stuff like that for awhile.

[Jack Flak]

In an attempt to reconcile his perceived introversion with his dominant extroverted intuition, Jack Flak created a new system in which INTPs, his claimed type, were 'intuitive primaries', and therefore solved the problem.

Little did he know that many ENTPs can also behave quite introvertedly, and that his system, if used alongside MBTI, would only screw up the typing of all ENTPs after him...
I understand why you may think that, as others have, but I'm not irritated because I know my type. It's not relevant to me how others type me.

Jen, just ignore them. This is a left over from personal conflict and has no bearing on your type. Everything you have describe is accurate - if it represents you, it represents your type... just as I have known several ESFJs in my life and gotten to know them very well, nothing in your attitude or posts suggests it, and your description of yourself confirms it.

You are the best judge of your type. Shrug off amateur at-a-distance online typers who you have a recent history with.
You are typed accurately. Being a Sensor implies lack of Intuition use, which leads you to believe others aren't more perceptive.

I don't type based on vendettas. Types can explain vendettas, that is all.

[InaF3157]

Jen, just ignore them. This is a left over from personal conflict and has no bearing on your type. Everything you have describe is accurate - if it represents you, it represents your type... just as I have known several ESFJs in my life and gotten to know them very well, nothing in your attitude or posts suggests it, and your description of yourself confirms it.

You are the best judge of your type. Shrug off amateur at-a-distance online typers who you have a recent history with.

She knows her self best - at bottom, it's always up to people to know what fits them best, after all the wishful thinking/hatred of types is done. That said, this thread exists for a reason, and from pretty early on, it was clear that anyone that typed her as the dreaded SJ was cast as someone who hates her.

Well, I don't, and yet I'd tend to agree with them. Call it "SJ on MBTIc only" if that is more palatable, but intuition appears out to lunch. If she is an NF it's pretty well hidden.

[Aimahn]

In an attempt to reconcile his perceived introversion with his dominant extroverted intuition, Jack Flak created a new system in which INTPs, his claimed type, were 'intuitive primaries', and therefore solved the problem.

Little did he know that many ENTPs can also behave quite introvertedly, and that his system, if used alongside MBTI, would only screw up the typing of all ENTPs after him...

I haven't studied his personal system extensively enough to argue on its merits and faults, barely glanced at it to be truthful. I would say though that I feel as if my intuition is something that I rely on and utilize much more frequently than my thinking and there is almost no way I would consider my self extraverted.

[Haphazard]

I don't type based on vendettas. Types can explain vendettas, that is all.

It is a fatal flaw to believe one is so objective.

[Haphazard]

I haven't studied his personal system extensively enough to argue on its merits and faults, barely glanced at it to be truthful. I would say that I feel as if my intuition is something that I rely on and utilize much more frequently than my thinking and there is almost no way I would consider my self extraverted.

But how do you define extraversion?

[InaF3157]

I don't type based on vendettas. Types can explain vendettas, that is all.

QFT! It's almost always the same 2 or 3 types that irritate or baffle me.

[Jack Flak]

...at bottom, it's always up to people to know what fits them best...
Yes and no. It's well accepted that there are "MBTI enthusiasts" out and about who self-deny their type.

Well, I don't, and yet I'd tend to agree with them. Call it "SJ on MBTIc only" if that is more palatable, but intuition appears out to lunch. If she is an NF it's pretty well hidden.
I, for one, appreciate your courage.

[CaptainChick]

You are typed accurately. Being a Sensor implies lack of Intuition use, which leads you to believe others aren't more perceptive.
PFFT!!!

I've just gotten to know pt recently and from what I have gathered from his posts thus far, compared to yours, is that he is VASTLY more perceptive than you are, or will ever be.

:yes:

I don't type based on vendettas. Types can explain vendettas, that is all.You might not type based on vendettas, but what you certainly do do is make derogatory, mean-spirited, offensive posts about and towards people who happen to not want to indulge you and your bull shit.

[InaF3157]

Yes and no. It's well accepted that there are "MBTI enthusiasts" out and about who self-deny their type.
Hence the "after all the wishful thinking/hatred of types is done". ;)

[Jack Flak]

It is a fatal flaw to believe one is so objective.
Note that it remains the Judging Primaries who deny the ability to be objective. This is all explained, in other terminology, here:

Jack Flak's Function System Adventure (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-enneagram-other-personality-matrices/10345-jack-flak-s-function-system-adventure.html)

PFFT!!!

I've just gotten to know pt recently and from what I have gathered from his posts thus far, compared to yours, is that he is VASTLY more perceptive than you are, or will ever be.

You might not type based on vendettas, but what you certainly do do is make derogatory, mean-spirited, offensive posts about and towards people who happen to not want to indulge you and your bull shit.
I would much appreciate it if you wouldn't antagonize me here, CC, because we have conflicting, how shall I say, "debate styles," and it would get very mean very quickly. I don't want to do that.

[Aimahn]

But how do you define extraversion?

To me it is something that is much more all encompassing so I don't necessarily think it can be confined to just social relations, or any similar aspects for that matter. I even hesitate to define it more rigourously, I feel as if I would be adding personal value judgements based solely on my own inclinations that would unnecsarily restrict rather than elaborate.

I would need to retreat and contemplate to give you a more thorough answer.

[CaptainChick]

It is a fatal flaw to believe one is so objective.
:yes:

Note that it remains the Judging Primaries who deny the ability to be objective. This is all explained, in other terminology, here:

Jack Flak's Function System Adventure (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-enneagram-other-personality-matrices/10345-jack-flak-s-function-system-adventure.html)
LOL!!!

I would much appreciate it if you wouldn't antagonize me here, CC, because we have conflicting, how shall I say, "debate styles," and it would get very mean very quickly. I don't want to do that.
Quit being a [super-silly guy] and I will quit "antagonizing" you, as you say. K?

[InaF3157]

Interesting - I just checked the rest of the thread and it appears some of the very people decrying the concept of typing other people counter to what the typee typed himself/herself felt no qualms about engaging in a bit of it themselves. :coffee:

[Jack Flak]

:yes:

LOL!!!

Quit being a complete and utter jackass and I will quit "antagonizing" you, as you say. K?
Technically, you're being a little impolite. Do you see the error in your diplomatic strategy?

[Aimahn]

:yes:


LOL!!!


Quit being a complete and utter jackass and I will quit "antagonizing" you, as you say. K?

another little interjection.

I find it rather amusing that any conflict, argument, or debate that you engage in requires the opposing individual to be a "jackass" or other similar personal terms. In the end it always seems as if you are the one who cries foul the most though when you sense even a hint of personal involvment.

[ptgatsby]

You are typed accurately. Being a Sensor implies lack of Intuition use, which leads you to believe others aren't more perceptive.

I'll be sure to let the professionals here know right away. They will be relieved that some amateur on a forum who doesn't know me at all was able to derive my type with such accuracy after I stated it next to every post I make, despite following up with a nonsensical comment on Ss, despite their uncertainty after interviewing me and giving me the formal test. They will no doubt be contacting you shortly to roll your new innovative gut-feeling at-a-distance system into the new curriculum. I assume they will also be doing away with the self-typing mechanism in the ethics part, given that it is no longer required, given the high accuracy of the above system. :rolli:

[CaptainChick]

Technically, you're being a little impolite. Do you see the error in your diplomatic strategy?
With you, I am no longer trying to be diplomatic, you insulted ptgatsby, along with all sensors stating this, "Being a Sensor implies lack of Intuition use, which leads you to believe others aren't more perceptive."

And then you inadvertently insulted hap and all judging primaries (according your system) stating, "Note that it remains the Judging Primaries who deny the ability to be objective."

I don't have a diplomatic strategy, I treat most people with respect, you however, have lost my respect.

I like you when you are being fluffy and funny, (it's what you do best), but when you attempt to get serious, for some reason you tend to become an [eager, wide-eyed puppy dog].

:)

[Jack Flak]

May I have permission to speak to CC the way she speaks to me? This is not a serious question. Believe it or not, I don't want to make her cry.

Sometimes it's very hard to suppress my unreal ability to be mean, CC. Be grateful.

ptgatsby: While we may disagree, I appreciate your proficiency with sarcasm. CC could learn something from you.

[Aimahn]

With you, I am no longer trying to be diplomatic, you insulted ptgatsby, along with all sensors stating this, "Being a Sensor implies lack of Intuition use, which leads you to believe others aren't more perceptive."

And then you inadvertently insulted hap and all judging primaries (according your system) stating, "Note that it remains the Judging Primaries who deny the ability to be objective."

I don't have a diplomatic strategy, I treat most people with respect, you however, have lost my respect.

I like you when you are being fluffy and funny, (it's what you do best), but when you attempt to get serious, for some reason you tend to become an emotionally hyper-sensitive, asshole.

:)

This post is VERY funny.

That is all I have to say.

[Jennifer]

With you, I am no longer trying to be diplomatic, you insulted ptgatsby, along with all sensors stating this, "Being a Sensor implies lack of Intuition use, which leads you to believe others aren't more perceptive."

And then you inadvertently insulted hap and all judging primaries (according your system) stating, "Note that it remains the Judging Primaries who deny the ability to be objective."

I don't have a diplomatic strategy, I treat most people with respect, you however, have lost my respect.

I like you when you are being fluffy and funny, (it's what you do best), but when you attempt to get serious, for some reason you tend to become an emotionally hyper-sensitive, mean asshole.

:)

Smiley? Why, might I ask?
If you didn't mean all this, then don't say it.
Don't say it and then smiley it.


May I have permission to speak to CC the way she speaks to me? This is not a serious question. Believe it or not, I don't want to make her cry.

Sometimes it's very hard to suppress my unreal ability to be mean, CC. Be grateful.

Do you both need a thread of your own to make up?
Considering how clumsy I've been recently with new threads, it could take awhile... so don't make me do it, for your own sanity. :D

*still debating on what should get moved NOW*

[CaptainChick]

May I have permission to speak to CC the way she speaks to me? This is not a serious question. Believe it or not, I don't want to make her cry.

Sometimes it's very hard to suppress my unreal ability to be mean, CC. Be grateful.
Darling, please, I implore you...

BRING IT ON!!!

There is absolutely NOTHING you can say that would make me cry, because only people I actually *respect* have the ability to do that, k? :smooch:

[CaptainChick]

Smiley? Why, might I ask?
If you didn't mean all this, then don't say it.
Don't say it and then smiley it.
I meant all of it.

Noticed how I used :) instead if :D, though, in retrospect, I probably should have used, :rolli:

[ptgatsby]

ptgatsby: While we may disagree, I appreciate your proficiency with sarcasm. CC could learn something from you.

Sorry Jack, but given the nature of this thread and your general attitude to using type a way of putting people down indirectly, rather than to their face, I'm going to have to qualify "disagree" to something stronger. I don't "disagree" with you.

Any ability you have, which I consider minimal at best, is then directed against any ethical use of type. You use it as a weapon, put down others with it, and otherwise make a mockery of the underlying premise that it is meant to help others understand each other. I can't even give you the benefit of the doubt that you are simply socially ignorant and stuck using stereotypes. You actively hit sore spots, you aim to get attention doing it and you enjoy the impact.

Disagree doesn't even begin to describe my position on what you do.

[Nocap]

BRING IT ON!!!


CC...

Like... do you think your life is a movie?

[Falcarius]

Do you both need a thread of your own to make up out?


Fixed.:devil:

[Ivy]

Insults and attacks end now. Don't bring it on. It would really, really suck to have to ban anyone because their last chance was spent on a dumb argument like this.

That is all.

[Aimahn]

CC...

Like... do you think your life is a movie?

I think you're taking it WAY to serious. Its obviously comedy, just not very funny or insightful.

[Jennifer]

I meant all of it. Noticed how I used :) instead if :D, though, in retrospect, I probably should have used, :rolli:

The latter was better.

Although, as you've seen, your taking things to this level with Jack opened you up to a snide remark from Aimahn.... and the snowball keeps rolling until now someone has to intervene. You're aware of all that, correct?

Like Ivy said, we're done now.

[Jack Flak]

*sigh* Just when I'm taken to the edge is it "done now." I could have gone onnnn and onnnn for hourrrrs and hourrrrs. Oh well! :)

[Ivy]

Yeah, it seems like everything civil that can be said, has been said. And then some.

I have to go get my kid at preschool, try not to burn down the forum while I'm gone, 'kay guys? :D

[Uberfuhrer]

Anyone got a lighter?

[Nocap]

Anyone got a lighter?

Mine's all out of fuel.
You can have the shell though.

[Uberfuhrer]

Mine's all out of fuel.
You can have the shell though.

That will suffice.

[Eric B]

The essence of a function does not change. Thinking remains Thinking, it never gets mystical, however it may appear mystical to others.

I never argued that the essence of a function changes by its direction. Direction is an additional component to the function. What this means is Introverted Thinking is most easily stimulated by ideas that are abstract in nature (such as mathematics and philosophy), yet Extroverted Thinking is more easily stimulated by problems that are ostensible in the external world.

Mystical logic is an oxymoron. Logic is completely objective. All of its procedures are always clearly outlined and are linear. As we have established earlier, Ti and Te are the same piece, therefore there is no reason to call Ti logic mystical.

The difference between me and other Ti doms is simply that I am more comfortable voicing my thoughts than they are. Ti logic is deemed mystical by others because Tis often do not voice their thoughts in public as explicitly as Te doms. In the Jung excerpt, he makes Fi the more "mystical" one.

[Edgar]

I think phoenix13 is an FJ of sorts, even though she has herself listed as an ENFP.

[Jack Flak]

I think phoenix13 is an FJ of sorts, even though she has herself listed as an ENFP.
phoenix13 is ENFP, though unwise compared to the average thirty year old ENFP. Which I don't believe she is, as yet.

[Edgar]

Since this is kind of relevant to the topic, I think the most common self mistyping is an introvert reporting as an extravert, and a feeler reporting as a thinker.

Oh yeah, and as I mentioned in a previous thread, Uber is not an extravert.

[Edgar]

phoenix13 is ENFP, though unwise compared to the average thirty year old ENFP. Which I don't believe she is, as yet.

Phoenix13's reactions to my posts are very indicative of an FJ.
Perhaps her P function is very soft or something.

[Jack Flak]

Phoenix13's reactions to my posts are very indicative of an FJ.
Perhaps her P function is very soft or something.
She's far easier to deal with than CC, who is also ENFP.

[Edgar]

She's far easier to deal with than CC, who is also ENFP.

I don't think it's a matter of who is easier to deal with. I was just commenting on reactions, which are indicative of a certain thought process.

[Jack Flak]

I don't think it's a matter of who is easier to deal with. I was just commenting on reactions, which are indicative of a certain thought process.
IT IS my assessment that the ENFJ will not even engage when confronted with such conflict as they have been, and have engaged.

[Edgar]

IT IS my assessment that the ENFJ will not even engage when confronted with such conflict as they have been, and have engaged.

Alas, I haven't been witness to the conflict's in question, therefore I cannot comment.

(edit: are you speaking in hypothetical or are you referencing previously occurred event?)

[Jack Flak]

Alas, I haven't been witness to the conflict's in question, therefore I cannot comment.
I refer you to the "Short rant on NFs" thread.

[Lateralus]

Phoenix13's reactions to my posts are very indicative of an FJ.
Perhaps her P function is very soft or something.
I'm pretty sure she's ENFP. I'm not seeing the FJ. I see strong Fi.

[Edgar]

I refer you to the "Short rant on NFs" thread.

Just looked at it, and I must say, I disagree.

She seems to start her arguments from conclusions like most Js do. She likes to make lists when she makes a point.

And I'm not sure what infer by your previous post - that ENFJs balk away from arguments?

[Edgar]

I'm pretty sure she's ENFP. I'm not seeing the FJ. I see strong Fi.

I can't argue using "cognitive functions" because I do not find them an accurate assessment of personalities. I prefer Keirsian typology SJ NF SP NT, and informative vs directive. Those to me seem a lot more definitive and exact.

[Lateralus]

I can't argue using "cognitive functions" because I do not find them an accurate assessment of personalities. I prefer Keirsian typology SJ NF SP NT, and informative vs directive. Those to me seem a lot more definitive and exact.
Well, you're incorrect with your conclusion that she's more directive than informative. But that's due to a lack of data.

[Edgar]

Well, you're incorrect with your conclusion that she's more directive than informative. But that's due to a lack of data.

You know what, I take back what I said about her being directive. There are informative FJs (such as ISFJ and ESFJ). But she does give me an impression of being an FJ

(previous post has been edited)

[phoenix13]

Phoenix13's reactions to my posts are very indicative of an FJ.
Perhaps her P function is very soft or something.

Right, and by "reactions", you're refering to the only reaction I've ever given you: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/9351-what-do-enfps-find-attractive-other-people-3.html#post402785

and your post reaked of arrogance, something at odds with my value system (Fi), so I called it out. Fe might be more inclined to let it slide, or at least be tactful. I'm not.

[Edgar]

Right, and by reactions, you're refering to the only reaction I've ever given you: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/9351-what-do-enfps-find-attractive-other-people-3.html#post402785

and your post reaked of arrogance, something at odds with my value system (Fi), so I called it out. Fe might be more inclined to let it slide, or at least be tactful. I'm not.

Don't forget your curt retort "wrong" to my post at http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/relationships/10047-enfp-intp-relationship-2.html#post378491

By the way, your "moral indignation" can be construed as arrogance as well.

(edit: also, in the same thread as you have referenced, another ENFP states her attraction to arrogance. So there goes your cognitive function argument)

[phoenix13]

Don't forget your curt retort "wrong" to my post at http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/relationships/10047-enfp-intp-relationship-2.html#post378491

By the way, your "moral indignation" can be construed as arrogance as well.

(edit: also, in the same thread as you have referenced, another ENFP states her attraction to arrogance. So there goes your cognitive function argument)

My retort was an impulsive response to what I considered an ill-considered statement. Very P-ish.

I said your arrogance conflicted with my value system... I'm not indignant of you.

In response to your edit: cognitive processes are thinking processes, not thoughts or values in themselves... there's no contradiction there.

[CaptainChick]

phoenix13 is sooooooooooo fucking ENFP that I'm lol-ing at these accusations.


If she isn't ENFP, neither am I.

[Eric B]

You know what, I take back what I said about her being directive. There are informative FJs (such as ISFJ and ESFJ). But she does give me an impression of being an FJ

(previous post has been edited)
If a J is not directive, then they are Structure-focused, whhich may have similar traits (more serious, etc); so that could be another possibility. (And TJ is both. structure vs motive is basically the "mirror" of directive vs informative; what one is on the S side, the other is on the N side; and vice versa). FP on the other hand would always be both informative and motive oriented. I have not really seen enough of phoenix's posts to help out with that one, but even informing+motive people will have angry or annoyed reactions to things that may seem critical or "directive" at times.

[Jen]

One thing I didn't take into consideration in the OP was issues most of us have. I would imagine the majority of people on a psychology forum do have one if not more things they are dealing with. Some things to consider...

ADD, Social Anxiety Disorder, Autism BiPolar Disorder, OCD, Depression and so on. I believe these things can easily alter a persons type. I pretty sure I have ADD and S.A.D.

[Jack Flak]

One thing I didn't take into consideration in the OP was issues most of us have. I would imagine the majority of people on a psychology forum do have one if not more things they are dealing with. Some things to consider...

ADD, Social Anxiety Disorder, Autism BiPolar Disorder, OCD, Depression and so on. I believe these things can easily alter a persons type. I pretty sure I have ADD and S.A.D.

Also: ESFJ. Certainty 9/10.

[Night]

INFJ for Jen.

[Jen]

Also: ESFJ. Certainty 9/10.I respectfully disagree.INFJ for Jen.You are one of the few members who I've let into my world and I value your judgments on this issue and 99% of all others.

[Jack Flak]

I respectfully disagree.
Your analysis is irrelevant to me.

[Night]

Your analysis is irrelevant to me.

Haha.

Reaffirmed: Jen - not ESFJ.

[Jack Flak]

Haha.

Reaffirmed: Jen - not ESFJ.
Reaffirmed by whom? What is the basis for your analysis? Comparison? Functional analysis?

[Silently Honest]

I'll have to third that. Jen - INFJ

[Night]

Ha - much more complex. Interpretation of implicit motivation.

[Jack Flak]

Ha - much more complex. Interpretation of implicit motivation.
These are my methods as well. I refer you to my argument for ESFJ, which you may or may not have read.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/what-s-my-type/6961-mistyped-mbtic-members-26.html#post395287

[Night]

These are my methods as well. I refer you to my argument for ESFJ, which you may or may not have read.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/what-s-my-type/6961-mistyped-mbtic-members-26.html#post395287

I have.

You're good - I voted favorably towards your skill in the recent Jack Flak 3.75 offshoot thread.

I'm having fun with your motive. Not your method. :)

[Jack Flak]

I have.

You're good - I voted favorably towards your skill in the recent Jack Flak 3.75 offshoot thread.

I'm having fun with your motive. Not your method. :)
I see. You doubt my objectivity, and I have no way to prove said objectivity, but it is my assessment that I have the ability to disengage myself from emotional matters and apply logical analysis almost at will, and have done so in this case.

[Night]

I see. You doubt my objectivity, and I have no way to prove said objectivity, but it is my assessment that I have the ability to disengage myself from emotional matters and apply logical analysis almost at will, and have done so in this case.

Well, I trust your judgment. You're well informed.

This might just be an instance where our reticules misalign. It happens.

To this end, how might you analyze my apparent type, Jack? I've never been able to aptly pin it down.
Any thoughts?

[Jack Flak]

Well, I trust your judgment. You're well informed.

This might just be an instance where our reticules misalign. It happens.

To this end, how might you analyze my apparent type, Jack? I've never been able to aptly pin it down.
Any thoughts?
Thinking/Intuition Introvert. INTJ. Certainty 4/5.

[Night]

Thinking/Intuition Introvert. INTJ. Certainty 4/5.

Nice.

I'll take it to the bank.

[Jeffster]

One thing I didn't take into consideration in the OP was issues most of us have. I would imagine the majority of people on a psychology forum do have one if not more things they are dealing with. Some things to consider...

ADD, Social Anxiety Disorder, Autism BiPolar Disorder, OCD, Depression and so on. I believe these things can easily alter a persons type. I pretty sure I have ADD and S.A.D.

And meanwhile I think most of that stuff is crap, and is made up to make normal human behavior something to medicate into submission.

[Jeffster]

I think Victor is an STP. Like I've said before, E/I is almost impossible to evaluate from an internet forum, but the rest is not so difficult when you read enough posts. Victor types these long spews but if you really read them, they are usually very specific and fact-based (even if his facts are way off) and he doesn't accept the notion of people inventing their own morality or abstract reality. Furthermore, he had admitted he doesn't plan his posts at all but just posts them, and his general intent is to make an impact and rile people up. Also, he loves attention like telling people to get on Skype to talk to him.

xSTP. The Jeffster has spoken.

[Haight]

And meanwhile I think most of that stuff is crap, and is made up to make normal human behavior something to medicate into submission.While you may dispute the remedy for "that stuff," the reality is that they are classifications for behavior and conditions that do exist.

[Uberfuhrer]

I think Victor is an STP.

So is he motor oil or a Stone Temple Pilot?

And I also think that a lot of INxJs use the Internet to act out the bad-ass side of them that they can't do well in real life because of underdeveloped Se.

[Jeffster]

While you may dispute the remedy for "that stuff," the reality is that they are classifications for behavior and conditions that do exist.

I don't dispute that the behavior exists, otherwise I wouldn't have called it "normal human behavior." ;)

[Jeffster]

So is he motor oil or a Stone Temple Pilot?
.

Oh, motor oil definitely. He greases gears quite effectively on this forum.

[Haight]

I don't dispute that the behavior exists, otherwise I wouldn't have called it "normal human behavior." ;)You disputed the classifications, which was my point.

The classifications exist. However, what to do, if anything, is what your statement was disputing.

[Jeffster]

You disputed the classifications, which was my point.

The classifications exist. However, what to do, if anything, is what your statement was disputing.

Why are we talking in circles? :D Of course they EXIST, otherwise there would be no CRAP for me to object to.

[Haight]

Why are we talking in circles? We're not.

You made this statement:
And meanwhile I think most of that stuff is crap, and is made up to make normal human behavior something to medicate into submission.

And now you are making this statement:

:D Of course they EXIST, otherwise there would be no CRAP for me to object to.

Therefore, for me, the circle is now complete.

[Haphazard]

And I also think that a lot of INxJs use the Internet to act out the bad-ass side of them that they can't do well in real life because of underdeveloped Se.

Hum. Perhaps.

So you don't do this, Uber?






I'm going to have to go with Jeffster, though.

[Uberfuhrer]

Hum. Perhaps.

So you don't do this, Uber?






I'm going to have to go with Jeffster, though.

I figured most people won't remember that post for it to make a difference.

[Nocap]

Also: ESFJ. Certainty 9/10.

Agree.

And as many of you know, my judgement is the bedrock of absolution.


There will be no more questions concerning this matter.

[Nocap]

Uber and Señor Flak:

ENTP

[Edgar]

One thing I didn't take into consideration in the OP was issues most of us have. I would imagine the majority of people on a psychology forum do have one if not more things they are dealing with. Some things to consider...

ADD, Social Anxiety Disorder, Autism BiPolar Disorder, OCD, Depression and so on. I believe these things can easily alter a persons type. I pretty sure I have ADD and S.A.D.

I don't think mental disorders alter somebody's type. They *do* add another layer to person's behavior that can throw off accurate typing. The only people that I've met who I had trouble classifying after knowing them personally for more than a month were either bipolar, sociopaths, or had some other "white noise" issue such as repressed homosexuality. But if you look past their erratic behavior caused by mental afflictions, they were quite consistent with their types.

As always though, there are degrees to everything. If somebody is completely fucked up off their rocker and need to wear a straight jacket, then yeah, MBTI won't be of much use.

[kelric]

INFJ for Jen.

I'll have to third that. Jen - INFJ

Same... Jen = INFJ.

[Blackmail!]

Uber and Señor Flak:

ENTP

Uber? why not. A very special one, but hey, there's no "ordinary" ENTPs. ENTPs often are extreme narcissists like Uber is, but they usually have a subtler or lighter way to show it because they focus it externally. Ne-Dom are often more scatterbrained than our beloved Uber, but again, who knows?

But I disagree on Flak. I distinctively smell the foul stench of INTP's putridness in most of his writings. :sick:

[Usehername]

And meanwhile I think most of that stuff is crap, and is made up to make normal human behavior something to medicate into submission.

:huh:

You probably think this is crap because a lot of doctors find it easier to medicate than to find the true root of the problem (and thus, there are a high number of people on medication that don't actually have a physiological problem).

However, denying that these physiological issues exist is like denying that there are any creatures that exist in the ocean because you can't see the overwhelming majority with your eyes above the water. You can't see the aquatic life below the sea; you also can't see the molecular physiology of the inside of someone's brain.
But there are pieces of equipment that allow people to examine such things, and they've proven they exist. (100% proven. There is absolutely no dispute.) It's a physiological reality that there are incorrect levels of neurochemicals flowing around in some people. This is what causes problems in some people. (Some. Not everyone who is taking the medication. Because, again, it's easier to medicate someone than to go through the effort of finding the cause.)

[Anonymous]

Jack Flak: INTJ

MacGuffin, Rajah, and Edahn: xNTP (x denoting ambivert)

Uberfuhrer: ISTJ

Ivy: Destroyer of MBTI

[Bella]

heh

[Blackmail!]

MacGuffin, Rajah, and Edahn: xNTP (x denoting ambivert)



Not ambivert: it varies according to the amount of alcohol currently flowing in their veins.
That's the x-factor. :cheers:

[Nocap]

But I disagree on Flak. I distinctively smell the foul stench of INTP's putridness in most of his writings. :sick:

When you have a higher post count, you may comment on Jack's writing.
Until then, it is to be assumed that you're not on the forum often enough to make a clear analysis -- at least given Señor Flak's recent sign on.

[Edgar]

Jack Flak: INTJ

MacGuffin, Rajah, and Edahn: xNTP (x denoting ambivert)

Uberfuhrer: ISTJ

Ivy: Destroyer of MBTI

If Uber is not an INTJ, then I will my own hat... and then shit out a better hat.

[Blackmail!]

Until then, it is to be assumed that you're not on the forum often enough to make a clear analysis -- at least given Señor Flak's recent sign on.

You really think I genuinely tried to make "a clear analysis"? :D

----

Anyway, concerning our dear beloved Uber, as far as I remember, he often complained to be a control-freak, I mean: to be obsessed by power and the desire to lead and/or control people. That's definitely NOT an ENTP trait. But maybe I'm wrong?

[Nocap]

ENTPs do what they want.

It's a human kind of thing to desire power. If the human happens to be ENTP...

[Blackmail!]

ENTPs do what they want.

It's a human kind of thing to desire power. If the human happens to be ENTP...

Almost every ENTPs I've known enjoy their freedom far too much to bother controlling other people.
There was a thread about this that showed that very distinctive trait.

ENTPs often are dubbed as manipulative, and that's true. But they do not like to lead, it's not "natural" for those anarchists at heart. They often respect power, but they also despise it in the same time.

[Jeffster]

However, denying that these physiological issues exist is like denying that there are any creatures that exist in the ocean because you can't see the overwhelming majority with your eyes above the water. You can't see the aquatic life below the sea; you also can't see the molecular physiology of the inside of someone's brain.
But there are pieces of equipment that allow people to examine such things, and they've proven they exist. (100% proven. There is absolutely no dispute.) It's a physiological reality that there are incorrect levels of neurochemicals flowing around in some people. This is what causes problems in some people. (Some. Not everyone who is taking the medication. Because, again, it's easier to medicate someone than to go through the effort of finding the cause.)

That's where my buzzer went off. What do you mean by "incorrect"?

[Jennifer]

That's where my buzzer went off. What do you mean by "incorrect"?

Probably simply the same as saying, "You need more oil in your car because the quantity/proportion of what you have in there now is not sufficient to make it run smoothly as it was designed to do."

That's all.

Nothing nefarious.

[Jeffster]

Probably simply the same as saying, "You need more oil in your car because the quantity/proportion of what you have in there now is not sufficient to make it run smoothly as it was designed to do."


Human beings aren't cars.

But if I swallow your metaphor anyway, then I will assert that "running smoothly" may not always be what someone wants a car to do. ;)

[Nocap]

There was a thread about this that showed that very distinctive trait.
I stand corrected.

My I presume on our relationship by asking what you're correcting me for?

[Nocap]

Human beings aren't cars.
No, but allegory often provides insight.

[Aimahn]

Human beings aren't cars.

But if I swallow your metaphor anyway, then I will assert that "running smoothly" may not always be what someone wants a car to do. ;)

Funnily enough those people often end up at the auto shop to get "modifcations, repairs, or upgrades"

[Jack Flak]

Jack Flak: INTJ

MacGuffin, Rajah, and Edahn: xNTP (x denoting ambivert)

Uberfuhrer: ISTJ

Ivy: Destroyer of MBTI
Flak: INTP

MacGuffin: INTP

Uberfuhrer: INTJ

Ivy: INFJ (Certainty 3/4)

Rajah: Unknown, likely NT (Too unfamiliar atm)

Edahn: ENTP (Certainty 2/3)

[Uberfuhrer]

Flak: INTP

MacGuffin: INTP

Uberfuhrer: INTJ

Ivy: INFJ (Certainty 3/4)

Rajah: Unknown, likely NT (Too unfamiliar atm)

Edahn: ENTP (Certainty 2/3)

Are you using the MBTI or the JFTI?

[Jack Flak]

Are you using the MBTI or the JFTI?
The types are the same, because the preferences are the same (N vs. S for example). The "JFTI," as you call it, is cleaner, less prone to mistype.

[Nocap]

The MBTI is more of a crock than the JTdilly, but...
JTFdilly is still a flawed mechanism.

[Jack Flak]

The MBTI is more of a crock than the JTdilly, but...
JTFdilly is still a flawed mechanism.
Tough to get around that. My next goal is to create a test which is accurate more than 3/4 of the time, and doesn't confuse the shit out of half the novices. I'll ponder this for the next year or two.

[Aimahn]

How would you seperate or define the usability or "function" of jacks system verse MBTI

1. The average ill informed novice
2. The average intermediate
3. The average well informed "typologist"

Because I think fundamentally that is what really distinguishes the validity of these things. If you're good your good no matter what method you use as Jack alluded to in one of his posts.

[Nocap]

I await the advent.
I can't wait to trounce that bullery as well.

[Jack Flak]

Because I think fundamentally that is what really distinguishes the validity of these things. If you're good your good no matter what method you use as Jack alluded to in one of his posts.
Note: I think people are often good in spite of MBTT functions. They unconsciously redefine the terms in order to have them fit their analyses.* This isn't to say everyone who uses MBTT functions is good. Very few are.

*BlueWing actually described the INTP's "Fi" as some kind of odd Ti+Fe marriage, and this is the perfect example. It doesn't need to be like that.

[Nocap]

1. The average ill informed novice
2. The average intermediate


Almost all people -- especially those participants in this disabler of a thread -- are in these two levels.

[Nocap]

*BlueWing actually described the INTP's "Fi" as some kind of odd Ti+Fe marriage, and this is the perfect example. It doesn't need to be like that.

BlueWing is dead.


:)

[Usehername]

That's where my buzzer went off. What do you mean by "incorrect"?

I'll preface my response by saying thumbs up to the level-headed discussion we're having in this iffy thread. :)

It means when you go through the effort of truly separating out behaviour (i.e. a kid with ADD with abnormal levels of neurochemicals vs. a kid who is attention starved due to parents, or going through a bratty phase because kids do that) the kids with genuine attention deficit can go through a fMRI and the scan will show different levels of neurochemicals that distinctly depart from the norm.

It's analogous to cancer, Jeffster: Every one of us has cancerous activity in our body; you do, I do, we all do. Some of it is natural due to aging, some of it is natural due to mutation happening once in a while, everyone has free radicalization of their molecular structures (aka cancer). We differentiate between any random person who has free radicalization and people who "have cancer" because there are physical differences that, after a point, the distinct departure from the norm in one's body becomes abnormal. I'm sure you can see just as easily as I do that with cancer, there are physical challenges that come after a point of not dealing with things.

With neurochemicals, these things happen in the brain; the brain is the control room for all behavioural activity. In the brain, also, there are challenges that come after a point of not dealing with things. This body location is the only difference.

We don't send every person who potentially has <insert neurochemical abnormality here> under the fMRI magnet because that's simply too costly. Way cheaper, way faster, way less effort to medicate people who are borderline. (I am not arguing in favour of medicating every kid that comes in one's path, I'm just stating reality--it's simply easier to medicate.)

(I'm not asserting that intervention like one-on-one helping a kid develop techniques to deal with their behavioural problem isn't beneficial--studies show it is helpful to a degree, and any help is better than no help. But if there's a significant physiological deviation from the norm, medicating an individual can throw their neurochemical balance into a healthy range that a) shows up healthy under the magnet under testing in studies (but, again, is simply too costly to do for non-life-threatening problems for the everyday IRL case) and b) helps their behaviour.)

The biggest problem with a term like "depression" is that everyone gets down in the dumps once in a while. We've all felt "depressed." Not all of us have had, excuse my language, really fucked up brain chemistry that leads to DSM-IV qualification of the term and had to deal with this. I can imagine what it's like to have a broken leg and have everyone tell you to "walk it off" and how invalidated I'd feel because I can't control the fact that my leg is broken and not properly functional. Then imagine that your brain chemistry is equally as incapicated, except not only are people telling you to "deal with it" but they don't even acknowledge that this physiological problem exists (because they can't see it physically). And the added bonus is that this invalidation is in your brain and it makes your mood even worse because you don't feel acknowledged and because your physiological brain makes up your thoughts and feelings. Telling a person who is DSM-IV certifiably depressed that they should "be happy" and "stop feeling so down" is like stepping on someone's broken leg.

[whatever]

Jen?

INFJ

why bother arguing it?? :huh:

[Jack Flak]

Jen?

INFJ

why bother arguing it?? :huh:
Is that a serious question? If it is, my response is another question. "Why do we care about MBTI, any of us?"

[whatever]

just saying that you're banging your head against a brick wall- there's better wastes of energy out there! :)

[Jack Flak]

just saying that you're banging your head against a brick wall- there's better wastes of energy out there! :)
Do you have a detailed readout of my intentions and levels of satisfaction gained from all of my pursuits? I don't remember a USB cable dangling from the back of my skull at any point. What I mean to say is: I've done my job.

[whatever]

MY mindscan instruments don't need cables... we're in the wireless age now you dinosaur! :tongue:


.... cables.... pfft!

:devil:

[Jack Flak]

Whatever: ENFP. Intuition/Feeling/Extrovert. Certainty 2/3.

[digesthisickness]

haha.

do me, jack?

[Jack Flak]

haha.

do me, jack?
digesthisickness: xNTP. Intuition/Thinking. I/E Undefined online.

[digesthisickness]

digesthisickness: xNTP. Intuition/Thinking. I/E Undefined online.

thanky.

[whatever]

jack flack- intj... quite certain

and not an ENFP... that lacking the whole Fi thing kind of rules that out

[ajblaise]

I don't remember a USB cable dangling from the back of my skull at any point.

That's because you have a giant floppy disk slot in your mouth.

[Jack Flak]

jack flack- intj... quite certain

and not an ENFP... that lacking the whole Fi thing kind of rules that out
I don't believe in Fi, you know. My typing of you was/is mainly a comparison classification, based on behavior. If it makes you feel any better, ENTP is the alternate for you.

If you really, really think I'm INTJ, you have some studying up to do.

[whatever]

those who know me in real life wouldn't doubt the ENTP classification

[Orangey]

Eh, I think Whatever is ENTP.

[Jack Flak]

those who know me in real life wouldn't doubt the ENTP classification
Should we trust them? In any case, being that this wasn't a strong typing of mine, I shant argue it too much. If I've not convinced myself, why should I try to convince others? ;)

[whatever]

I learned to be more personality ambiguous as I've aged... mellowed out a bit may I say. Learned F in a way, though only to my own advantage ;)

[Jack Flak]

I learned to be more personality ambiguous as I've aged... mellowed out a bit may I say. Learned F in a way, though only to my own advantage ;)
Ah yes, and I have as well. Though I'm not sure if anyone at all has gained from it...

[whatever]

it's more of a benefit if you've got tits! :D

[Jack Flak]

it's more of a benefit if you've got tits! :D
Define "got." j/k I know what you mean. :D

[Jack Flak]

Oh, I think ajblaise is INTP now. I thought INFP a long time ago. Maybe he's doing less drugs these days.

[Uberfuhrer]

Whatever: ENFP. Intuition/Feeling/Extrovert. Certainty 2/3.

Pwned!

[whatever]

que Uber?

[Uberfuhrer]

que Uber?

You said I was an NF (of some sort). And John Flan threw it back at you! :D

[Didums]

Yea I don't get it either lol

Edit: oic

[ajblaise]

Maybe he's doing less drugs these days.

:sombrero:

[Jack Flak]

Yea I don't get it either lol

Edit: oic
Didums: Naive. Certainty 9/10.

[whatever]

You said I was an NF (of some sort). And John Flan threw it back at you! :D

no- I've just concluded that you're merely an overcompensating narcissist who reaches out to others merely in an attempt to make yourself feel more important :cool:

[Didums]

Didums: Naive. Certainty 9/10.

Some days, other days I think it is just my retardation.

[Uberfuhrer]

no- I've just concluded that you're merely an overcompensating narcissist who reaches out to others merely in an attempt to make yourself feel more important :cool:

And interested in understanding women the way Ted Bundy was? (I put your Bitch Slap for Edahn in Jen's member quotes thread!)

[Edgar]

And interested in understanding women the way Ted Bundy was? (I put your Bitch Slap for Edahn in Jen's member quotes thread!)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y202/woogieboogee/Psycho/normanbates.jpg

Don't yell. You'll wake up mother.

[Uberfuhrer]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y202/woogieboogee/Psycho/normanbates.jpg

Don't yell. You'll wake up mother.

Now all I can think of is you lying on your Barbie bed.

Is Barbie your mother?

[Jack Flak]

I'm interested in understanding women, after all I am a gynechiatrist. But not in the way Ted Bundy was, for Christ's sake. lol.

[white]

I'm interested in understanding women, after all I am a gynechiatrist. But not in the way Ted Bundy was, for Christ's sake. lol.

An INTP seeking to understand vs. to define, interesting. :)

What'd I be then, Jack.

[Jack Flak]

An INTP seeking to understand vs. to define, interesting. :)

What'd I be then, Jack.
I'm relatively unfamiliar. For the moment, I shall trust your self-assessment.

[white]

I'm relatively unfamiliar. For the moment, I shall trust your self-assessment.

Caution, I see, the mark of an intelligent intuitive.

If you're game, I could give you three questions and/or a picture?

[Orangey]

Haven't heard your opinion on my type, yet, jack. Curious.

[Jack Flak]

Caution, I see, the mark of an intelligent intuitive.

If you're game, I could give you three questions and/or a picture?
I'm always game when it comes to my favorite hobbies.

Haven't heard your opinion on my type, yet, jack. Curious.
Thinking/Intuition Introvert. INTJ. Certainty 2/3. Alternate: INTP. E/I is also relatively unclear at this point, but I lean toward I.

That's my assessment which is completely separate from yours, however. I would definitely defer if you know your type.

[white]

I'm always game when it comes to my favorite hobbies.

Sure, let's have your questions three, or do you prefer the picture first?

[Jack Flak]

Sure, let's have your questions three, or do you prefer the picture first?
Oh, I thought you were going to ask me questions. *oblivious*

Pic.

[white]

Oh, I thought you were going to ask me questions. *oblivious*

Pic.

Why'd me asking you questions type me?

[Jack Flak]

Why'd me asking you questions type me?


I'm not great with ethnicities other than my own, and I think most people operate similarly. But I don't see a problem with ENTP or ENFP here. Either would potentially fit.

Regarding asking questions: That's what people tend to do in the OP of "What's my Type" threads, and the kind of questions asked can lead to my perceiving personality traits.

[SolitaryWalker]

Note: I think people are often good in spite of MBTT functions. They unconsciously redefine the terms in order to have them fit their analyses.* This isn't to say everyone who uses MBTT functions is good. Very few are.

*BlueWing actually described the INTP's "Fi" as some kind of odd Ti+Fe marriage, and this is the perfect example. It doesn't need to be like that.

No, BlueWing maintains that the Fe of the INTP may look like Fi for this reason, but the genuine essence of Introverted Feeling is close to non-existent because this function is the most supressed as it is in direct antithesis with the primary function which is the Introverted Thinking.

[Jack Flak]

No, BlueWing maintains that the Fe of the INTP may look like Fi for this reason, but the genuine essence of Introverted Feeling is close to non-existent because this function is the most supressed as it is in direct antithesis with the primary function which is the Introverted Thinking.
I put "Fi" in quotes, because you said it wasn't Fi itself. And I fail to see how this is not an "odd marriage" between Ti and Fe, exactly how I described it.

[white]

I'm not great with ethnicities other than my own, and I think most people operate similarly. But I don't see a problem with ENTP or ENFP here. Either would potentially fit.

Regarding asking questions: That's what people tend to do in the OP of "What's my Type" threads, and the kind of questions asked can lead to my perceiving personality traits.

Personalities transcend ethnicities, don't they.

I'm curious... Why do you type yourself INTP, incidentally?

[SolitaryWalker]

Personalities transcend ethnicities, don't they.

I'm curious... Why do you type yourself INTP, incidentally?

Interesting note in regard to this.

Personality: A set of our habits concerning behavior.

Temperament: A set of solidified unconscious tendencies of thought.

Example distinguishing the two: An INTP in China will behave differently from an INTP in North America, but what they both will have in common is the tendency towards dispassionate contemplation.

[Jack Flak]

Personalities transcend ethnicities, don't they.

I'm curious... Why do you type yourself INTP, incidentally?
Because I am one. Do you have any idea how introverted I am? Very. And it's not some half invented shite like Social Anxiety Disorder either.

Re: ethnicity: Visual Identification only.

[whatever]

Haven't heard your opinion on my type, yet, jack. Curious.

I'd say that you're an INTP with softer edges

[white]

Interesting note in regard to this.

Personality: A set of our habits concerning behavior.

Temperament: A set of solidified unconscious tendencies of thought.

Example distinguishing the two: An INTP in China will behave differently from an INTP in North America, but what they both will have in common is the tendency towards dispassionate contemplation.

I take your point, bluewing, but I was more referring to visual identification like how Jack is doing currently.

Because I am one. Do you have any idea how introverted I am? Very. And it's not some half invented shite like Social Anxiety Disorder either.

Re: ethnicity: Visual Identification only.

I wouldn't know how introverted you are, and I would not mix the introversion of the MBTI with the social/psychological introversion like SAD either. :) I guess I can observe you.

[Jack Flak]

aelan: Intuition/Thinking Extrovert. ENTP. Certainty 3/4. Alternate: ENFP.

[SolitaryWalker]

I put "Fi" in quotes, because you said it wasn't Fi itself. And I fail to see how this is not an "odd marriage" between Ti and Fe, exactly how I described it.

Let me paraphrase what you stated.

BlueWing describes the Introverted Feeling of the INTP as a synthesis of Introverted Thinking and Feeling.

That is incorrect.

What I said was the following, when an INTP feels, his Feelings are often directed at his inner life. For example, the INTP may find beauty in a mathematical equation, or some abstract idea. This is very similar to Fi, as for example we notice NFPs display an intense emotional reaction to an abstract idea. We find many examples for this phenomenon in the writings of Kierkegaard and Augustine.

But what actually happens is the Extroverted Feeling is directed towards the inner life and not the Introverted Feeling itself.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me clarify further;

Introverted function: Interposes an internal subjective mindset between the experience and itself.


Extroverted function: Interacts directly with the external world.

Introverted Feeling: Imposes a subtle unconscious agenda of valuation between the object and the psyche itself.

Extroverted Feeling: Emotes directly in relation to the object.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

As I have explained in my ENFJ profile, the Extroverted Feeler often collects the emotion expressed by others, as Jung says, an Extroverted Feeler may call a painting good or beautiful not because it directly pleases his or her aesthetical judgment, but because the present company feels the painting was good or beautiful.

In the case of the INTP, the emotive judgment interacts directly with the object, in my example it is the mathematical equation. If the INTP thinks that the equation is beautiful, the emotional reaction will follow. In the case of an Fi type, Feeling has a mind of its own. The emotive agenda is not directly prescribed by an agent foreign to feeling, it operates by virtue of the aforementioned mystical agenda of unconscious emotive valuation of its own.

Because the INTP does not employ such an agenda, this type is not an Introverted Feeling type.

You stated that I was describing the Introverted Feeling of the INTP, this was not so. I was describing how the faculties of cognition of the INTP resemble Introverted Feeling, but they are not of Introverted Feeling.

[Jack Flak]

tl;dr

[Trinity]

I'm bored 'n crap, do me Jack :jew:

[whatever]

*gasp*

In front of all of us?

[white]

aelan: Intuition/Thinking Extrovert. ENTP. Certainty 3/4. Alternate: ENFP.

I get a certainty ratio higher than whatever, awww.

If it's any help, I've tested ENTP, ENFJ, INTP, ISFJ. I'm curious why'd you say ENFP actually.

Trinity, there's my showgirl! :D

[Jack Flak]

I'm bored 'n crap, do me Jack :jew:
You're a tough nut to crack, Trinity. I should revert to my "I don't do requests" policy, lol.

Intuition/Feeling Introvert. INFP. Certainty: None.

[Trinity]

*gasp*

In front of all of us?

Trinity, there's my showgirl! :D

Sure, why not?

*gropes you both*

You're a tough nut to crack, Trinity. I should revert to my "I don't do requests" policy, lol.

Intuition/Feeling Introvert. INFP. Certainty: None.

Teeheee.

Interesting but... "Certainty: None" <-- good call ;)

[whatever]

*moans*

do it again Trinity! :holy:



yes- perplexed at the fact that aelan got seen as higher T, lower F than me ;)

[Jack Flak]

yes- perplexed at the fact that aelan got seen as higher T, lower F than me ;)
She's meaner.

[Orangey]

I'd say that you're an INTP with softer edges

Does any T who's not a total asshole = soft edged?

[whatever]

to be mean takes more F

I don't care enough to be mean most of the time :sleeping:

[Jack Flak]

to be mean takes more F

I don't care enough to be mean most of the time :sleeping:
Nah, meaner in that ENTP "I don't give a fuck" way.

[whatever]

Does any T who's not a total asshole = soft edged?

no- sorry- I work with wine too much :doh:

sharp edge versus soft edge... not an insult at all- it's like saying that someone works with a soft touch :)

[Orangey]

no- sorry- I work with wine too much :doh:

sharp edge versus soft edge... not an insult at all- it's like saying that someone works with a soft touch :)

Oh, no, not offended...just wondering :).

[whatever]

Nah, meaner in that ENTP "I don't give a fuck" way.

reading posts more carefully could reveal more than you could imagine...

[white]

Sure, why not?

*gropes you both*

Teeheee.

Interesting but... "Certainty: None" <-- good call ;)

:wubbie:



yes- perplexed at the fact that aelan got seen as higher T, lower F than me ;)


She's meaner.

He don't like me! He's more afraid of me than you, whatever. :cry:

Does any T who's not a total asshole = soft edged?

Not really, there's a difference between intelligence and wisdom; in more mature Ts, it doesn't always manifest itself as assholism.

[whatever]

Oh, no, not offended...just wondering :).

just be glad that I didn't describe you as more fruit forward as opposed to blatantly tannic :D

[Jack Flak]

reading posts more carefully could reveal more than you could imagine...
I read posts with reckless abandon and a sense of Adventure. Sue me.

[Orangey]

just be glad that I didn't describe you as more fruit forward as opposed to blatantly tannic :D

Is this wine jargon?

[whatever]

to jack-hmmm... how much are you worth?

to orangey- yeah- describing the difference between dry reds! :laugh:

[Jack Flak]

hmmm... how much are you worth?
Like a thousand dollars.

[whatever]

He don't like me! He's more afraid of me than you, whatever. :cry:


*points* :laugh:

asshole!

[white]

Is this wine jargon?

Yes, she means you're more drinkable, feminine, though not any less strong - think grenache-syrah aged 7 years vs. shiraz 2 years. ;)

*points* :laugh:

asshole!

Oh *woe* My self monitoring hasn't kicked in!

[Orangey]

Yes, she means you're more drinkable, feminine, though not any less strong - think grenache-syrah aged 7 years vs. shiraz 2 years. ;)

Greek to me ;). Get the gist, though. LOL

[whatever]

Like a thousand dollars.

that's more than I've got- it may pay part of the lawyer costs of sueing you! :D

... or perhaps I could ROB you! $1,000 would more than cover gas prices to drive there and back!

[whatever]

Oh *woe* My self monitoring hasn't kicked in!

mine's all too developed thanks to having to succeed in the field of sales in order to eat and pay rent :doh:

[white]

Greek to me ;). Get the gist, though. LOL

No worries. Perhaps to simplify it, not all Ts are assholes, some do grow up and like you, develop a lovely intelligence; accessible but no less complex.

[Jack Flak]

that's more than I've got- it may pay part of the lawyer costs of sueing you! :D

... or perhaps I could ROB you! $1,000 would more than cover gas prices to drive there and back!
You'd have to sell me first.

[Orangey]

No worries. Perhaps to simplify it, not all Ts are assholes, some do grow up and like you, develop a lovely intelligence; accessible but no less complex.

I meant the wine part...

[whatever]

as a cadaver or slave? :huh:

[Jack Flak]

as a cadaver or slave? :huh:
What's the going rate on cadavers, like $200? Good luck with that.

[whatever]

*note- sell cadaver to really f***ed up person, possibly a necrophiliac*

[Nocap]

Flak : ENTP