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The Great One
09-29-2012, 12:24 AM
Is it just me or is it very common for Fe users to use what I like to call, "Fe put-downs". Now what I define as an Fe put-down, is basically a put-down that undermines the character of another person for doing something out of the ordinary, or something that is considered socially strange, or awkward. I've noticed that this is VERY common amongst the ESTP types more than any other types. I've also noticed that a lot of ESFJs do this as well, and even some ENTP's and ENFJs. What I have noticed though, is that it seems to be an Fe user thing. For instance, I don't ever see many Fi users doing it, except on some occasions I may see ESFP's doing it. I have never seen one ENFP or an INTJ do this in my entire life.

Now to be more clear as to what Fe put downs are, I will give you a couple of scenarios where Fe put downs might be used. For instance, let's say a man is wearing a very loud and flamboyant shirt like one that may have been worn by Will Smith in "Fresh Prince of Bel-Air". I've noticed that it's very common for Fe users to say stuff like, "Who wears those kinds of shirts anymore?" and "The 90's called, and they want their shirt back". Another example of this may involve a situation where you have a man who gets manicures from nail salons. I've noticed that it's not uncommon for Fe users to say stuff like, "What the hell? What kind of man gets his nails done? What are you gay or something?" The final scenario that I will use is like a woman who decides to go into the field of construction (a field mostly dominated by men). It would be common for Fe users to say things like, "What are you gonna be a construction worker for? That's a man's job."

Now you may be thinking to yourself, "What the hell are you talking about? Those are just typical insults. Everyone uses insults and you are just a dumb ass for writing a thread like this one." However, the key difference between regular put-downs, and Fe put-downs is that it involves a lack of the following of certain social standards that Fe presents in an individual. Fi users on the other hand tend to be so much more individualistic and kind of do their own thing in life, and say, "To hell with social standards". Anyway these are the patterns that I have noticed. Do you agree with my theory or am I incorrect?

stalemate
09-29-2012, 03:03 AM
I work with the most ESFJ woman I can imagine existing, and she has done things like this to me several times. The one that comes to mind immediately is one day she looked at my feet while we were working and cracked up laughing and she was then like "oh sorry, i was distracted by those shoes" and just kept kind of halfway trying to work and halfway laughing at me.

She is actually someone that I generally like quite a lot, but man, those kind of "you will be ridiculed for not fitting into the box that society has built for you" moments are irritating.

Giggly
09-29-2012, 03:17 AM
A lot of those things sound like something that people who subscribe to traditional gender roles and stereotypes say, which is not a type thing or cognitive function thing.

acronach
09-29-2012, 03:21 AM
by default, i probably drive most of this kind of people away by just being myself. not enough conformity for their taste

Giggly
09-29-2012, 03:28 AM
When someone says stuff like that to you just say "DON'T JUDGE ME!"

:D

Grublet
09-29-2012, 06:45 AM
Never in my life have I said anything like that. :(

highlander
09-29-2012, 07:14 AM
VERY good topic. Nice thread. There are much better examples actually than what you provide.

These situations actually can make me angry...

Fe types are utterly oblivious to this by the way.


.

AntiheroComplex
09-29-2012, 07:28 AM
Unless I was playfully teasing a friend with whom I know I can safely joke around, I can't imagine why I'd say anything like the examples above. I don't think I even have those thoughts to begin with. A few of my uncles and cousins derive great amusement from people-watching and laughing at anything they find unusual, but this bothers me a lot. I'm sure that if they didn't know me, they'd be making fun of me, too.

I do work with an ESFJ woman who has made snarky comments about my clothing and my boyfriend, which I find odd (as she claims to adore everything subversive and strange). However, I don't think this has to do with her personality type as much as it does her insecurity.

21%
09-29-2012, 09:02 AM
VERY good topic. Nice thread. There are much better examples actually than what you provide.

These situations actually can make me angry...

Fe types are utterly oblivious to this by the way.

Could you give better examples of this? I'm really interested. The examples in the OP, to me, just sound like "people being mean" (in a playful way to disguise their insecurity). Are these deemed "Fe" only because they are judging from the 'social norm'?

Amargith
09-29-2012, 10:42 AM
I wonder if it isn't...I dunno, a form of humour? That gets experienced as a slight? I can imagine that Fe-users would find it very amusing to notice those things that are outside the realm of what is generally considered the norm in society. Granted, if it makes them feel uncomfortable, it will likely be a projection of their uncomfortableness...but Ive seen Fe-users who are comfortable in their own skin just be amused by the Fe-irony present in whatever it is the other person is doing that is outside the social norm.

If the other person however is an Fe-tard, or less focused on the Fe-perspective, they might not really realise that they are being unintentionally humorous for those with an Fe-perspective. Miscommunication is likely to ensue.

Kind of like how T-types insult each other to express affection, or pick at each others slips and use it as 'proof' that the other isnt T or isnt intelligent, while their intelligence is clear to anyone around?

phobik
09-29-2012, 12:08 PM
Why would anyone start such a thread? Everyone knows Fe corrupts ppl into being self rigtheous condescending bigots.

Southern Kross
09-29-2012, 12:29 PM
I don't know if it's Fe related. Just last night I was watching two ESTJs trade insults over several hours over what each were wearing. Although in this context it was meant as friendly ribbing and no real offence was meant.

Eric B
09-29-2012, 12:38 PM
The OP's examples remind me more of the ISTJ's I grew up around, so if that is Fe at all (since the FJ's don't seem to be identifying with it), then it might be Trickster, which would try to double bind the person they are criticizing, with the prospect of being weird, or "gay", which from a traditional homophobic perspective is a kind of "weird".
Si figures in this as well, and the offending behavior likely somehow threatens their vulnerable tertiary Fi sense of ethics. (And for an ESFP, it would be Witch, which would be a critical attack for when the "parental" authority of their aux. Fi is negated, but I don't think they would really bother with the types of examples the OP gave).

INTJ and ENFP would work just like ISTJ and ESFP, respectively (Fe in the same archetypal position), but I think with them, it is being N that allows them to accept things being out of the norm more, so that's probably why you never heard them doing it.

If not, then this might not always be something connected with type or functions.

Ginkgo
09-29-2012, 01:16 PM
The best insults are made indirectly for the insulted to unravel in their own special way.

fia
09-29-2012, 01:29 PM
A lot of those things sound like something that people who subscribe to traditional gender roles and stereotypes say, which is not a type thing or cognitive function thing.Well said, Giggly. I actually think anyone is capable of doing that. For my own self I don't care if the put-down is because of maintaining a tradition or cultural behavior or if it is to maintain a personal ego or viewpoint, it hurts the same.

I think the most horrible put-down is to have someone judge you with assumptions that are made up in their head. This is especially upsetting if there is a serious situation involved. When someone does this you know communication has been halted because they are using you as a proxy for something else which is why they have such a large set of assumptions. I once had a man getting uncomfortable fixated on me at work trying to get my home number, showing a lack of emotional regulation in his interactions, and having sexual overtones in his words and body language. I reported some of the incidents and one of the secretaries took me aside and verbally attacked me. She has smiled and seemed friendly since, but I don't forgive her because she hasn't apologized. People online have sometimes judged me with false assumptions and I remember that as well.

If people want to use Sensors as the stereotype of maintaining tradition and putting people down who fall outside the norm, then iNuitives who think they "just know" shit about you because of magical insight are also capable of quite unpleasant put-downs.

highlander
09-29-2012, 02:37 PM
On this Fe put down thing - It's a subtle put down that you are not acting in an "appropriate" way. They apply judgment to your behaviors and make you feel like you are an idiot for being the way you are. Why aren't you like other people? It can be quite undermining. Who says the social norms or what is in their head is right? That's the problem because frequently they are not right. It's a failure to appreciate individuality.

Z Buck McFate
09-29-2012, 03:17 PM
I actually had been thinking of starting a thread like this, asking for specific examples. What spurred it (for me) is getting annoyed at Te’ers, mostly Te doms, and wondering what exactly the Fe correlate looks like.

This doesn't even begin to be a problem for all, or probably even most, Te types- but there’s an inclination to respond to things with some incredibly obtuse dismissal (some variation of the word ‘stupid’ or ‘idiot’ is often involved) and there’s a bizarre smugness about it. I can remember my eNTJ ex doing this all the time- making some comment and his body language suggested he thought he was coming up with some clever remark when it was something incredibly obvious/dull and he was just coming off like a dim-witted caveman instead. I imagine the forcefulness comes from frustration, to vent- but where it’s blatant, it’s stunning. The more forcefully they call things ‘stupid’ or ‘idiotic’, the less capable they seem of being able to use their own reasoning to come to their own conclusions. It’s incredibly counterproductive because they effectively discredit themselves. And I know there must be some Fe correlate, but I’d like to hear some specific examples. Mostly for the selfish reason of wanting to make sure I'm keeping it in check myself.



On this Fe put down thing - It's a subtle put down that you are not acting in an "appropriate" way. They apply judgment to your behaviors and make you feel like you are an idiot for being the way you are. Why aren't you like other people? It can be quite undermining. Who says the social norms or what is in their head is right? That's the problem because frequently they are not right. It's a failure to appreciate individuality.

I do think it’s interesting how Te ‘direction’ doesn’t seem to bother Fi/Te types and Fe 'direction' doesn’t seem as grating to Ti/Fe types. I mean it does get grating, but it tends not to be as wholly offensive. As Orobas has touched on a few times here and there, there’s a tendency to project something into the other type which makes it seem more offensive than it’s intended to be. One of the reasons function theory makes sense to me is because I have noticed there being a strong tendency for people to find those with their own extraverted judgment to be tolerable (even if annoying) while having a visceral reaction to the extraverted counterpart of their introverted judging preference. I find Fe ‘nudges’ to be trivial and thoughtless, but don’t have anywhere near the same reaction to them as when someone goes full on Te caveman around me.

Giggly
09-29-2012, 03:27 PM
Why would anyone start such a thread? Everyone knows Fe corrupts ppl into being self rigtheous condescending bigots.

Duh!

highlander
09-29-2012, 03:31 PM
This doesn't even begin to be a problem for all, or probably even most, Te types- but there’s an inclination to respond to things with some incredibly obtuse dismissal (some variation of the word ‘stupid’ or ‘idiot’ is often involved) and there’s a bizarre smugness about it. I can remember my eNTJ ex doing this all the time- making some comment and his body language suggested he thought he was coming up with some clever remark when it was something incredibly obvious/dull and he was just coming off like a dim-witted caveman instead. I imagine the forcefulness comes from frustration, to vent- but where it’s blatant, it’s stunning. The more forcefully they call things ‘stupid’ or ‘idiotic’, the less capable they seem of being able to use their own reasoning to come to their own conclusions. It’s incredibly counterproductive because they effectively discredit themselves. And I know there must be some Fe correlate, but I’d like to hear some specific examples. Mostly for the selfish reason of wanting to make sure I'm keeping it in check myself.


I have only recently started noticing the potential connection between Te and this type of behavior. Interesting observation.



I do think it’s interesting how Te ‘direction’ doesn’t seem to bother Fi/Te types and Fe 'direction' doesn’t seem as grating to Ti/Fe types. I mean it does get grating, but it tends not to be as wholly offensive. As Orobas has touched on a few times here and there, there’s a tendency to project something into the other type which makes it seem more offensive than it’s intended to be. One of the reasons function theory makes sense to me is because I have noticed there being a strong tendency for people to find those with their own extraverted judgment to be tolerable (even if annoying) while having a visceral reaction to the extraverted counterpart of their introverted judging preference. I find Fe ‘nudges’ to be trivial and thoughtless, but don’t have anywhere near the same reaction to them as when someone goes full on Te caveman around me.

Also good points. The bolded - is it true? Maybe it is.

Z Buck McFate
09-29-2012, 04:23 PM
The bolded - is it true? Maybe it is.

Well it seems to me a lot of times, when it comes up, Fe’ers kinda react like “But it’s only clearly that person’s opinion” when Fe ‘direction’ is pointed out. The menacing aspect of it tends to evade us (maybe not completely, but generally moreso). When I sense a Fe’er getting wound up (irl) my experience is usually to think something “Whatever. To each, his own.” And I’m not saying this is universal, I’m just saying I’ve noticed a trend in Fe’ers having a more indifferent reaction. It’s not like the ‘direction’ sways me in one direction or another, but it’s kind of neither here nor there to me. I think Fi’ers get offended on some deeper level by it though.

eta, to clarify:

If someone were to tell me, “You should wear (some specific thing) to (some specific event) because it’s an important event to those attending, and it’s selfish and rude break that rule.” My reaction would be to consider whether there’s any valid point in what they’re saying- I’ll take the value into consideration and think “Pfft. Whatever.” to the rest of it. It seems to me like Fi’ers get so offended by the ‘selfish and rude’ part that it makes the whole comment too distracting to consider whether or not there’s any value/use in it.

I imagine it sounds like trying to exert control over others through insults? Because that’s what Te cavemen sound like to me. Rather than ideas commanding respect through their own merit, it’s like they throw insults to attempt to command that respect. It’s an amazing fail. And it's so distracting it's hard not to dismiss everything they say. [More eta: 'logically' I've come to realize they're probably throwing insults to vent frustration rather than as an attempt to MAKE me 'think something which is clearly imperfect'.....but I still find it too distracting to interact with well.]

Zarathustra
09-29-2012, 04:38 PM
A lot of those things sound like something that people who subscribe to traditional gender roles and stereotypes say, which is not a type thing or cognitive function thing.

Not sure if I agree...

I think heavy Si users (SJs) tend to subscribe to traditional gender roles and stereotypes more readily...

I actually think Si and Fe probably have the strongest "behavior-conformity" bents, and, as such, ESFJs are the type most prone to making "behavior-conforming" judgments (my mom is an ESFJ, and she's totally like this -- it shocks me whenever she does it [I can't believe she can honestly have that sentiment and not find it absurd]; my ex's mom is an ESFJ, and she was totally like this; and this pretty much fits the general ESFJ description).


I don't know if it's Fe related. Just last night I was watching two ESTJs trade insults over several hours over what each were wearing. Although in this context it was meant as friendly ribbing and no real offence was meant.

...which brings me to this point, which I largely agree with, as I've seen many people that believe, and I've seen it firsthand myself, that ESTJs often have a very strong "behavior-conformity" bent (and find it odd, since ESTJs aren't regular Fe-users). I would, as I pointed to above, though, say it has to do with Si beliefs about what is appropriate/proper/acceptable and what is not. They're also inferior Fi, so it's not like they have as strong/conscious an inclination as FPs (and even many INTJs [because of dominant Si, ISTJs tend to have a more similar "behavior-conformity" vibe]) to react strongly against behaviors that offend/attempt to suppress the individual (Fi) nature of a human being.


On this Fe put down thing - It's a subtle put down that you are not acting in an "appropriate" way. They apply judgment to your behaviors and make you feel like you are an idiot for being the way you are. Why aren't you like other people? It can be quite undermining. Who says the social norms or what is in their head is right? That's the problem because frequently they are not right. It's a failure to appreciate individuality.

Fixed.

That's what they try to do.

But they can go fuck themselves.

highlander
09-29-2012, 04:43 PM
One example I can come up with is that you say something in a conversation and afterwards the Fe'er criticizes you for saying what you said - this one little thing - the apparent social atrocity. You're like - I was just making conversation and it was an offhand comment - what's the big deal? The Fe'er then expands this single instance into a broader overall criticism of your social skills or how you act in a broader way.

Another example is to judge a person in a negative light because that person is not like other people. There is a failure to recognize what is unique and special about that person and to appreciate those things. All that is noticed is how they are different and it is wrong.

Amargith
09-29-2012, 04:53 PM
:D Damn, tertiary Fi is on a roll these days :ninja:

Saturned
09-29-2012, 04:57 PM
One example I can come up with is that you say something in a conversation and afterwards the Fe'er criticizes you for saying what you said - this one little thing - the apparent social atrocity. You're like - I was just making conversation and it was an offhand comment - what's the big deal? The Fe'er then expands this single instance into a broader overall criticism of your social skills or how you act in a broader way.

Another example is to judge a person in a negative light because that person is not like other people. There is a failure to recognize what is unique and special about that person and to appreciate those things. All that is noticed is how they are different and it is wrong.

:sipsteadelicately:

Zarathustra
09-29-2012, 05:10 PM
I wonder if it isn't...I dunno, a form of humour? That gets experienced as a slight? I can imagine that Fe-users would find it very amusing to notice those things that are outside the realm of what is generally considered the norm in society. Granted, if it makes them feel uncomfortable, it will likely be a projection of their uncomfortableness...but Ive seen Fe-users who are comfortable in their own skin just be amused by the Fe-irony present in whatever it is the other person is doing that is outside the social norm.

:sick:


One example I can come up with is that you say something in a conversation and afterwards the Fe'er criticizes you for saying what you said - this one little thing - the apparent social atrocity. You're like - I was just making conversation and it was an offhand comment - what's the big deal? The Fe'er then expands this single instance into a broader overall criticism of your social skills or how you act in a broader way.

Yes.

You should see the fucking ENTPs in vent.

:rolleyes:


Another example is to judge a person in a negative light because that person is not like other people. There is a failure to recognize what is unique and special about that person and to appreciate those things. All that is noticed is how they are different and it is wrong.

+1 for this, and +1 for the above.


:D Damn, tertiary Fi is on a roll these days :ninja:

It's the deluxe version, my dear.

We're not all afraid of our tertiary.

:wink:

Amargith
09-29-2012, 05:20 PM
Clearly. Is there an upgrade still? :alttongue:

Zarathustra
09-29-2012, 05:21 PM
:laugh:

We're working on it.

the state i am in
09-29-2012, 05:35 PM
Fe is just working with layers and layers of preference structure. the good/bad balancing act that's attached to meanings rather than effects. meanings are ideas that circulate among us, that bind our communication despite its invisibleness, the general knowledge that we're always connected to because it's always happening all around us that helps us guess what the likely meaning of the actual is in a way that is, again, socially binding. sharing conditions of perception and identifying with the perceiver's goal rather than with the effects of the direct observable experience from our own perspective.

how is this similar to Te? Te treats the meanings as if they're real things. it tries to more precisely measure the ideas. it thinks the ideas can be objectified and treated statistically, defined within proper ranges, and that thusly it is less important to rely on listening to how those meanings are performed and what they feel like when you wear them in various social spaces. again, a subtle distinction between what they feel like when you wear them in various social spaces and what YOU feel like when you wear them in various social spaces. Fe/Fi. with Fi, you're staying with your experience rather than watching how meanings territorialize that experience.

Je is about prediction, about intention, that's simply based on previous experience in a way that is learned through performing it but not through analyzing the effects of the particular situation and your contribution to it. you learn it like you learn grammar. you're constantly mirroring and performing it, like ghost notes, even when you're not. it habituates without a reflexive process where a person might consider other ways of acting and reformulate stories to organize how emotional experiences and personal values interact.

either way, we're the grammar police. Ni is a little different than Si in this regard in that it's maybe less immediately prescriptive, because we're more interested in seeing how a change aggregates more globally, which means we'd like a variety of interrelated contexts of the same class to blend together to see what kind of conceptual predictive model we can make (aka typology in general).

Amargith
09-29-2012, 05:40 PM
:laugh:

We're working on it.


...I think I'll stick with the beta for now.

highlander
09-29-2012, 06:06 PM
+1 for this, and +1 for the above.


They can also get disproportionately upset and defensive if you make observations about them doing something insensitive or rude.

Venom
09-29-2012, 06:40 PM
This entire thread seems ridiculous at worst and misguided at best... It's a bunch of INTJs complaining about how their ESFJ mothers forced them to wear their Sunday best to grandpas when they didn't want to, or how mom got mad they didn't say please and thank you... Oh the horror of your horribly unique situation growing up! Peoples mothers never try to control their children! Smart socially slow kids are always geniuses and their mothers are rule following idiots... Yep :P (sarcasta bowl!).

Now full disclosure: my mother is ESFJ, and growing up our nuclear family was ISTP, INFJ, ISFP. So I totally understand how crazy ESFJs can come across with "tyrant Fe". But that's ridiculous because we all know STJs do this too and we all know NFJs don't do this as much. So what I've taken this entire post to say is that this isn't about the Fe function at all. It's about SJs. Fe in my mind is a vibe-o-meter that picks up external cues of how everyone and thing feels. It INCLUDES value judgments, but it isn't the ONLY thing! Fe's definitely then have the ability to influence others feelings and value judgments, but it isn't always an overt tyrannical attempt at shoving rules down your throat. The desire to then force these things onto others must be slightly something else...

highlander
09-29-2012, 07:02 PM
This entire thread seems ridiculous at worst and misguided at best... It's a bunch of INTJs complaining about how their ESFJ mothers forced them to wear their Sunday best to grandpas when they didn't want to, or how mom got mad they didn't say please and thank you... Oh the horror of your horribly unique situation growing up! Peoples mothers never try to control their children! Smart socially slow kids are always geniuses and their mothers are rule following idiots... Yep :P (sarcasta bowl!).

Now full disclosure: my mother is ESFJ, and growing up our nuclear family was ISTP, INFJ, ISFP. So I totally understand how crazy ESFJs can come across with "tyrant Fe". But that's ridiculous because we all know STJs do this too and we all know NFJs don't do this as much. So what I've taken this entire post to say is that this isn't about the Fe function at all. It's about SJs. Fe in my mind is a vibe-o-meter that picks up external cues of how everyone and thing feels. It INCLUDES value judgments, but it isn't the ONLY thing! Fe's definitely then have the ability to influence others feelings and value judgments, but it isn't always an overt tyrannical attempt at shoving rules down your throat. The desire to then force these things onto others must be slightly something else...

My mom was an NF and about the furthest you could get from an SJ as humanly possible. I also don't think this has anything to do with tyrannical rules or judgments. I would however say that the biggest flaw in SFJ parenting relates to this exact thing because it involves at a deep level not accepting the child for who they are.

superunknown
09-29-2012, 07:10 PM
I highly doubt it is Fe that causes this.


But maybe, in a roundabout nineteen-different-conditions type thing, as is most of MBTI.

Elfboy
09-29-2012, 07:11 PM
This entire thread seems ridiculous at worst and misguided at best... It's a bunch of INTJs complaining about how their ESFJ mothers forced them to wear their Sunday best to grandpas when they didn't want to, or how mom got mad they didn't say please and thank you... Oh the horror of your horribly unique situation growing up! Peoples mothers never try to control their children! Smart socially slow kids are always geniuses and their mothers are rule following idiots... Yep :P (sarcasta bowl!).
Now full disclosure: my mother is ESFJ, and growing up our nuclear family was ISTP, INFJ, ISFP. So I totally understand how crazy ESFJs can come across with "tyrant Fe". But that's ridiculous because we all know STJs do this too and we all know NFJs don't do this as much. So what I've taken this entire post to say is that this isn't about the Fe function at all. It's about SJs. Fe in my mind is a vibe-o-meter that picks up external cues of how everyone and thing feels. It INCLUDES value judgments, but it isn't the ONLY thing! Fe's definitely then have the ability to influence others feelings and value judgments, but it isn't always an overt tyrannical attempt at shoving rules down your throat. The desire to then force these things onto others must be slightly something else...

actually, ENFJs and ESTPs are the main culprits in my opinion (extrovert directing Fe types are the worst at it)
oh, and STJs do not do this. they can enforce objective rules tyrannically, but they don't do this so much with social conventions. an STJ is more likely to think 'huh? he's weird. whatever' but then go back to whatever they were doing without feeling compelled to say anything.

Ginkgo
09-29-2012, 07:45 PM
I went through this realization that acting, at its heart, is the ability to manipulate your own emotions. That's what Fe is all about.
~Scarlett Johansson

AffirmitiveAnxiety
09-29-2012, 07:55 PM
On this Fe put down thing - It's a subtle put down that you are not acting in an "appropriate" way. They apply judgment to your behaviors and make you feel like you are an idiot for being the way you are. Why aren't you like other people? It can be quite undermining. Who says the social norms or what is in their head is right? That's the problem because frequently they are not right. It's a failure to appreciate individuality.

Dammit why do you have to be such a round peg....give up....join us.....join the squares!

Oddly enough if I were to say anything Fe related that was stated in this thread; it is often out of jest or irony and anyone who knows me fairly well understands this.

If I meet people who genuinely subscribe to this particular.....'standard' im generally appalled and amused in equal measure....mainly at the idea that someone could actually be serious about such unimportant shite or that they think it is their duty to supress anything out of the ordinary, whatever that means...

Of course im also a notorious hypocrete what with my whole honesty complex whereby I talk behind a person's back about their idiosyncracies that bother me...but then I let them know anyhow, usually in jest, because being bothered by such small habits is both hilarious and stupid of me.

Going by the amount of people who call me weird, mad and on one occasion, 'downright insane', at my clubs I frequent, im not really that bothered most of the time. If anything I enjoy the fact that people around me are comfortable enough in my prescence that they can be straight with me about such things.

I believe throughout my life very few people ever hid problems they had with me, which I find occasionally upsetting but usually refreshing and useful.

The Great One
09-29-2012, 08:01 PM
VERY good topic. Nice thread. There are much better examples actually than what you provide.

These situations actually can make me angry...

Fe types are utterly oblivious to this by the way.


.

Yes, the situations piss me off as well. I'm glad to see that someone else has made this correlation as well.


Unless I was playfully teasing a friend with whom I know I can safely joke around, I can't imagine why I'd say anything like the examples above. I don't think I even have those thoughts to begin with. A few of my uncles and cousins derive great amusement from people-watching and laughing at anything they find unusual, but this bothers me a lot. I'm sure that if they didn't know me, they'd be making fun of me, too.

I do work with an ESFJ woman who has made snarky comments about my clothing and my boyfriend, which I find odd (as she claims to adore everything subversive and strange). However, I don't think this has to do with her personality type as much as it does her insecurity.


Could you give better examples of this? I'm really interested. The examples in the OP, to me, just sound like "people being mean" (in a playful way to disguise their insecurity). Are these deemed "Fe" only because they are judging from the 'social norm'?

It's more of bitch more that a lot of the Fe users make. They mostly do it when they are upset. I've also noticed that Fe put downs are especially common in the types that have a strong 3w2 fix.


The OP's examples remind me more of the ISTJ's I grew up around, so if that is Fe at all (since the FJ's don't seem to be identifying with it), then it might be Trickster, which would try to double bind the person they are criticizing, with the prospect of being weird, or "gay", which from a traditional homophobic perspective is a kind of "weird".
Si figures in this as well, and the offending behavior likely somehow threatens their vulnerable tertiary Fi sense of ethics. (And for an ESFP, it would be Witch, which would be a critical attack for when the "parental" authority of their aux. Fi is negated, but I don't think they would really bother with the types of examples the OP gave).

INTJ and ENFP would work just like ISTJ and ESFP, respectively (Fe in the same archetypal position), but I think with them, it is being N that allows them to accept things being out of the norm more, so that's probably why you never heard them doing it.

If not, then this might not always be something connected with type or functions.

There is some kind of connection here, and I'm going to find out what it is.


On this Fe put down thing - It's a subtle put down that you are not acting in an "appropriate" way. They apply judgment to your behaviors and make you feel like you are an idiot for being the way you are. Why aren't you like other people? It can be quite undermining. Who says the social norms or what is in their head is right? That's the problem because frequently they are not right. It's a failure to appreciate individuality.

Thank you sir. I could not have said it better myself.


actually, ENFJs and ESTPs are the main culprits in my opinion (extrovert directing Fe types are the worst at it)
oh, and STJs do not do this. they can enforce objective rules tyrannically, but they don't do this so much with social conventions. an STJ is more likely to think 'huh? he's weird. whatever' but then go back to whatever they were doing without feeling compelled to say anything.

I've noticed that it's surprisingly not that common in the INFJ though.

jixmixfix
09-29-2012, 08:36 PM
I laughed at a girl once because she travels and hour and half to go to indigo. That sounds more like a te put down maybe? I just couldent believe someone who would trvael that far to go to a bookstore. Sjs in general or even js always like to throw their worldview at you thinking its what you should be doing.

ms.behaving
09-29-2012, 10:22 PM
I work with the most ESFJ woman I can imagine existing, and she has done things like this to me several times. The one that comes to mind immediately is one day she looked at my feet while we were working and cracked up laughing and she was then like "oh sorry, i was distracted by those shoes" and just kept kind of halfway trying to work and halfway laughing at me.

She is actually someone that I generally like quite a lot, but man, those kind of "you will be ridiculed for not fitting into the box that society has built for you" moments are irritating.

Come now, where's your sense of humor?

AffirmitiveAnxiety
09-30-2012, 12:35 AM
I find Fe can be like a butcher cleaver used to chop off a gangrenous limb.

Better to not be the limb, or else it will slay you where you stand; to be discarded without remorse.

Ive always thought there was a cold and calculating side to Fe that most dont talk about, but I recognise it in myself from time to time, it's the part of me that would, (in a crisis), evaluate who was worth saving and why and which course of action would benefit the majority.

ms.behaving
09-30-2012, 12:43 AM
I find Fe can be like a butcher cleaver used to chop off a gangrenous limb.

Better to not be the limb, or else it will slay you to be discarded without remorse.

Ive always thought there was a cold and calculating side to Fe that most dont talk about, but I recognise it in myself from time to time, it's the part of me that would, (in a crisis), evaluate who was worth saving and why and which course of action would benefit the majority.
Doesn't that describe humanity in its darkest hour?

Rail Tracer
09-30-2012, 01:13 AM
Am I the only one who think The Great One is referring to Si? O.o

Istbkleta
09-30-2012, 01:51 AM
When someone says stuff like that to you just say "DON'T JUDGE ME!"

:D

When I say this it has no effect. Many people LOVE judging others, ESFJs on the top of the list.

Such Irony
09-30-2012, 01:58 AM
VERY good topic. Nice thread. There are much better examples actually than what you provide.

These situations actually can make me angry...

Fe types are utterly oblivious to this by the way.


.

These situations would also make me very angry.

I'm wondering if position of Fe matters. I'm an Fe user but its in my 4th position.

Or maybe it's not entirely related to Fe.

Elfboy
09-30-2012, 02:07 AM
Am I the only one who think The Great One is referring to Si? O.o

he isn't. Si doesn't deal with social conventions

Trunks
09-30-2012, 02:13 AM
When making decision, I put my Fe down, only logic comes in my mind.

ms.behaving
09-30-2012, 02:15 AM
When I say this it has no effect. Many people LOVE judging others, ESFJs on the top of the list.

ESFJ's also LOVE people and when you're sick and dying, will likely be the first one at your bedside holding your hand through the night and seeing to it that you are comfortable and properly treated.

Giggly
09-30-2012, 02:21 AM
I have some plants that all you cry babies can water. ;)

Rail Tracer
09-30-2012, 02:23 AM
he isn't. Si doesn't deal with social conventions

Well, he IS talking about people comparing and contrasting. As in, comparing social situations or wearing out-of-style clothing.

An ISTJ friend of mine always talks about how strange or awkward people are, and such and why are people doing "X." Which is basically comparing and contrasting social situations to his social situations.

Istbkleta
09-30-2012, 02:40 AM
ESFJ's also LOVE people and when you're sick and dying, will likely be the first one at your bedside holding your hand through the night and seeing to it that you are comfortable and properly treated.

Unless they've judged me as a "non-standard issue of a human". In which case they'll hand me the cyanide to make the world a better, more predictable place full of conformity :D Inferior Ti doesn't make them exactly warmer :)

UniqueMixture
09-30-2012, 02:46 AM
I think this is more of a ExFx thing personally. I think the ExTx version is more about questioning Se.

ms.behaving
09-30-2012, 02:55 AM
There's a lot of ALL CAPS emphasis going on in here. Are we passionate or what?

Istbkleta: *laugh* that's why I keep friends close and my enemies even closer.

The Great One
09-30-2012, 07:20 PM
Am I the only one who think The Great One is referring to Si? O.o

No Eric B. thought so too.

AntiheroComplex
10-01-2012, 07:21 AM
On this Fe put down thing - It's a subtle put down that you are not acting in an "appropriate" way. They apply judgment to your behaviors and make you feel like you are an idiot for being the way you are. Why aren't you like other people? It can be quite undermining. Who says the social norms or what is in their head is right? That's the problem because frequently they are not right. It's a failure to appreciate individuality.


Another example is to judge a person in a negative light because that person is not like other people. There is a failure to recognize what is unique and special about that person and to appreciate those things. All that is noticed is how they are different and it is wrong.

These descriptions strongly remind me of an ISFJ friend of mine. She usually means well, but she tends to big-sister me whenever I've had an adventure that she deems somehow inappropriate. Her judgments aren't disguised as jokes; she'll simply say things like, "You're old enough to make the right decision," or, "Well, maybe if you didn't dress like that..."

I'm also a slightly quirky individual, and she's always been quick to point out my idiosyncrasies ("Stop biting your lips, it looks weird!"). She's a very serious person who keeps to herself, so maybe she's worried about my quirks drawing unwanted attention to the both of us. Either way, it does make me feel bad, and sometimes it's hard for me to spend time with her at all when she's in a particularly negative rut.

Orobas
10-01-2012, 02:28 PM
I actually had been thinking of starting a thread like this, asking for specific examples. What spurred it (for me) is getting annoyed at Te’ers, mostly Te doms, and wondering what exactly the Fe correlate looks like.

This doesn't even begin to be a problem for all, or probably even most, Te types- but there’s an inclination to respond to things with some incredibly obtuse dismissal (some variation of the word ‘stupid’ or ‘idiot’ is often involved) and there’s a bizarre smugness about it. I can remember my eNTJ ex doing this all the time- making some comment and his body language suggested he thought he was coming up with some clever remark when it was something incredibly obvious/dull and he was just coming off like a dim-witted caveman instead. I imagine the forcefulness comes from frustration, to vent- but where it’s blatant, it’s stunning. The more forcefully they call things ‘stupid’ or ‘idiotic’, the less capable they seem of being able to use their own reasoning to come to their own conclusions. It’s incredibly counterproductive because they effectively discredit themselves. And I know there must be some Fe correlate, but I’d like to hear some specific examples. Mostly for the selfish reason of wanting to make sure I'm keeping it in check myself.




I do think it’s interesting how Te ‘direction’ doesn’t seem to bother Fi/Te types and Fe 'direction' doesn’t seem as grating to Ti/Fe types. I mean it does get grating, but it tends not to be as wholly offensive. As Orobas has touched on a few times here and there, there’s a tendency to project something into the other type which makes it seem more offensive than it’s intended to be. One of the reasons function theory makes sense to me is because I have noticed there being a strong tendency for people to find those with their own extraverted judgment to be tolerable (even if annoying) while having a visceral reaction to the extraverted counterpart of their introverted judging preference. I find Fe ‘nudges’ to be trivial and thoughtless, but don’t have anywhere near the same reaction to them as when someone goes full on Te caveman around me.

Is it because the Te caveman approach would be invalidating (please fill in the more precise word :) ) to a Ti user? I would hear the Te user and go "meh, bob is being a jackass again." It might even be a bit funny. When I hear the Fe user, it is much closer to heart-as though they wiped out the value I expressed as being worthless, and substituted thier own as having more value-thus invalidating the in.

A specific example (a long one, my apologies)-my little one recently started Kindergarten. as a baby INTJ, he was very overwhelmed and would just stand and cry-his little Fi was so overwhelmed and he couldnt figure out a Te action plan-he didnt know what to DO yet-he needed to watch the system a bit and get a hang of the routine.

My thought was that I could sit with him before school while he ate breakfast in the cafeteria, treat him with insulin and then walk him to class, so he could get the hang of things. His school was very Fe heavy, extremely so. It rubbed me a bit funny, but I know this is just me and I wanted him to gain perspective of different types of people, so I tried to ignore it. The first day of school I asked the cafeteria teachers if I could sit and it with him. They said "Well...., no...we really dont have enough chairs for that..." with extremely heavy Fe overtones and a huge wierd smile. I looked over and saw about ten cafeteria tables open.

This wasnt meant to be a put-down, more an attempt to control, but it still felt hurtful. The reason it was hurtful was that, without realizing it, she had dismissed my concerns for my son as being invalid.

Step 1-I love my son> Step 2-he was hurting> Step 3-I needed to give him comfort> Step 4-I tried to provide him supportive structure by eating breakfast with him, in a way that doesnt interfere with his school day > Result: My action was rebuffed, based upon her value judgement, thus inadvertantly, she rendered the expression of love for my son as being invalid. By blocking my action, it reveberated back upon the chain of value based linkages (steps) all the way to step 1.

This backwards reverberation is internally troubling, as if I accept her "replacement" judgement as being correct-it places one of my core values for my son in question....maybe that isnt the right value to hold? This is of course, ridiculous, so in the moment, I make my way back down the value chain-through each step-revalidating that the values are reasonable....then I become angry that she would be so self-centric to try make her own selfish values take precendent over what is best for my child. and become defensive.

The underlined ^^ part is the projection error on my part-it assumes she is an Fi user. Knowing what I know, I dimissed the anger, tried to evaluate the decision as a desire to provide continuity for all the children and just let it go.

We spent three days at this very heavy Fe school, seeing many examples of this same type of behavior. I tried to go with the flow, but ISTP daddy finally snapped and dropped the F-bomb on one of the cross walk ladies. He described them as being (my apologies and no offense intended) "Fucking retarded Nazis" as they just kept trying to enforce rules that were illogical to him, so he requested we move the little guy to a local charter school.

What struck me as very weird was how invalidating the Fe heavy school felt-like the individuality of the children was totally discarded. Instead of "you are a special beautiful little star and filled with potential to do anything you put your mind to, but you do need to follow the rules" (Fi validation, Te affirmation, Te rule setting), the message was "You are no more special than anyone else and dont get special treatment, but we are all in this togehter, let's all be friends together and respect each other and be civil to others by behaving in the same way" (Ti devalidation???/Fe affirmation/Fe behavioral setting)

(He ended up in the local charter school which is pretty Fi heavy. The front lobby is painted silver, kelly green, orange sherbet, off yellow, burgundy, and pink in long vertical stripes a foot wide. It is crazy and I cant pick up Fe from anyone.)

cascadeco
10-01-2012, 02:37 PM
he isn't. Si doesn't deal with social conventions

Tell that to my ISTJ mother.

I think Si can be highly relevant to social norms/behavioral norms/life norms/job norms, regardless of whether it's SFJ's or STJ's you're talking about. Si can be very tied to what's 'appropriate'/standard, whether social or other life decisions.

Edit: Generation plays into this too: todays' 'standard' is pretty different from the generation my mom is a part of, where her generation very much emphasized more of the social appropriateness, manners, etc etc.

Eric B
10-01-2012, 03:15 PM
The functions are but different perspectives of each situation. We get into reducing them to just behaviors, and that causes this sort of confusion.

Si is an irrational perception of stored tangible data (experience, learned values), and Fe is a rational function that makes decisions based on external standards such as the values of the local environment.
So both can process the same data (in this case, “social norms”, and be reflected in similar behavior). It's just that the process itself is still different from each other.

highlander
10-01-2012, 05:56 PM
My thought was that I could sit with him before school while he ate breakfast in the cafeteria, treat him with insulin and then walk him to class, so he could get the hang of things. His school was very Fe heavy, extremely so. It rubbed me a bit funny, but I know this is just me and I wanted him to gain perspective of different types of people, so I tried to ignore it. The first day of school I asked the cafeteria teachers if I could sit and it with him. They said "Well...., no...we really dont have enough chairs for that..." with extremely heavy Fe overtones and a huge wierd smile. I looked over and saw about ten cafeteria tables open.

This wasnt meant to be a put-down, more an attempt to control, but it still felt hurtful. The reason it was hurtful was that, without realizing it, she had dismissed my concerns for my son as being invalid.

Step 1-I love my son> Step 2-he was hurting> Step 3-I needed to give him comfort> Step 4-I tried to provide him supportive structure by eating breakfast with him, in a way that doesnt interfere with his school day > Result: My action was rebuffed, based upon her value judgement, thus inadvertantly, she rendered the expression of love for my son as being invalid. By blocking my action, it reveberated back upon the chain of value based linkages (steps) all the way to step 1.

This backwards reverberation is internally troubling, as if I accept her "replacement" judgement as being correct-it places one of my core values for my son in question....maybe that isnt the right value to hold? This is of course, ridiculous, so in the moment, I make my way back down the value chain-through each step-revalidating that the values are reasonable....then I become angry that she would be so self-centric to try make her own selfish values take precendent over what is best for my child. and become defensive.


Of course she was trying tro do what was best for your son and to encourage him to be more on his own and fit in with the other children. They were supporting him and you acting in a socially conforming way. The impact of the interaction can be what you describe - invalidating your feelings or your actions as being "wrong" as they are not in the best interests of the collective whole (or something like that).




What struck me as very weird was how invalidating the Fe heavy school felt-like the individuality of the children was totally discarded. Instead of "you are a special beautiful little star and filled with potential to do anything you put your mind to, but you do need to follow the rules" (Fi validation, Te affirmation, Te rule setting), the message was "You are no more special than anyone else and dont get special treatment, but we are all in this togehter, let's all be friends together and respect each other and be civil to others by behaving in the same way" (Ti devalidation???/Fe affirmation/Fe behavioral setting)

Right. I think that is exactly what can happen. The "no more special" part I think also may have something to do with a value structure that is aligned with trying to foster humility in the child. There is however a balance between humility, development of the ego, confidence and self esteem. There are also benefits however to conforming socially or in other ways however, so the thinking is not all wrong.

highlander
10-01-2012, 05:56 PM
My thought was that I could sit with him before school while he ate breakfast in the cafeteria, treat him with insulin and then walk him to class, so he could get the hang of things. His school was very Fe heavy, extremely so. It rubbed me a bit funny, but I know this is just me and I wanted him to gain perspective of different types of people, so I tried to ignore it. The first day of school I asked the cafeteria teachers if I could sit and it with him. They said "Well...., no...we really dont have enough chairs for that..." with extremely heavy Fe overtones and a huge wierd smile. I looked over and saw about ten cafeteria tables open.

This wasnt meant to be a put-down, more an attempt to control, but it still felt hurtful. The reason it was hurtful was that, without realizing it, she had dismissed my concerns for my son as being invalid.

Step 1-I love my son> Step 2-he was hurting> Step 3-I needed to give him comfort> Step 4-I tried to provide him supportive structure by eating breakfast with him, in a way that doesnt interfere with his school day > Result: My action was rebuffed, based upon her value judgement, thus inadvertantly, she rendered the expression of love for my son as being invalid. By blocking my action, it reveberated back upon the chain of value based linkages (steps) all the way to step 1.

This backwards reverberation is internally troubling, as if I accept her "replacement" judgement as being correct-it places one of my core values for my son in question....maybe that isnt the right value to hold? This is of course, ridiculous, so in the moment, I make my way back down the value chain-through each step-revalidating that the values are reasonable....then I become angry that she would be so self-centric to try make her own selfish values take precendent over what is best for my child. and become defensive.


Of course she was trying tro do what was best for your son and to encourage him to be more on his own and fit in with the other children. They were supporting him and you acting in a socially conforming way. The impact of the interaction can be what you describe - invalidating your feelings or your actions as being "wrong" as they are not in the best interests of the collective whole (or something like that).




What struck me as very weird was how invalidating the Fe heavy school felt-like the individuality of the children was totally discarded. Instead of "you are a special beautiful little star and filled with potential to do anything you put your mind to, but you do need to follow the rules" (Fi validation, Te affirmation, Te rule setting), the message was "You are no more special than anyone else and dont get special treatment, but we are all in this togehter, let's all be friends together and respect each other and be civil to others by behaving in the same way" (Ti devalidation???/Fe affirmation/Fe behavioral setting)

Right. I think that is exactly what can happen. The "no more special" part I think also may have something to do with a value structure that is aligned with trying to foster humility in the child. There is however a balance between humility, development of the ego, confidence and self esteem. There are also benefits to conforming socially, so some of that thinking is not all bad.

I think that the Fe types will tend to think that the Fi user's feelings are "wrong" at times. "You shouldn't feel that way or think that way and I think less of you because you do."

Qlip
10-01-2012, 06:42 PM
I know a couple inferior Fe'ers that point out things in a way that seems like and probably is dissaproval and alarm. A dismissive laugh and ramping up the offending behaviour seems like the best solution, it gets them laughting too. ISTPs are cool like that.

Poki
10-01-2012, 07:05 PM
All i got are the ones my ex likes to use, she relates them to other people but all revolve around what she deems important. Like she is projecting onto things.

I really have low hopes for her Ti. Was talking to her a while back and she made a commeent how you cant seem to grasp tone over im so we need to talk where we can hear each other. Well last night she said that her boyfriend was gonna be involved in my sons cub scout stuff as well and i said "I dont care" and even though we were at "on the phone" she misunderstood and got alll defensive like "i dont care if you care or not, i care so he is gonna remain a part". Again i replied "I dont care"and and she went on and on. The days i feel like argueing i would have flat out said...he is a good guy its you i cant stand to be around. I do hold my tongue again though. For awhile i wasnt.

ms.behaving
10-01-2012, 07:52 PM
Real friends stab you in the front.

Esoteric Wench
10-01-2012, 09:35 PM
On this Fe put down thing - It's a subtle put down that you are not acting in an "appropriate" way. They apply judgment to your behaviors and make you feel like you are an idiot for being the way you are. Why aren't you like other people? It can be quite undermining. Who says the social norms or what is in their head is right? That's the problem because frequently they are not right. It's a failure to appreciate individuality.


I actually had been thinking of starting a thread like this, asking for specific examples. What spurred it (for me) is getting annoyed at Te’ers, mostly Te doms, and wondering what exactly the Fe correlate looks like.

The thing that I think Te and Fe have in common is that Te and Fe tend to have this attitude that the truth is self-evident. Thus, all the Te/Fe user thinks they need to do is nudge you in an oblique manner and you, too, will pick up on your own transgressions because you must have the same values as the Te/Fe user. Because their values are Right (with a capital R).

This is maddening to me when Fe users do it... but if I'm completely honest with myself, I've done this, too, when I've exercised my Te.

Based on what I've learned in this forum, I now try to remind myself that what seems so clearly and self-evidently true to my Te is not the only truth out there; and I shouldn't assume that my truth is self-evident to other people if only they thought about things a little harder. There is a certain arrogance in this position that I've worked hard to give up. I think I've somewhat succeeded, but during times of stress, I can regress.

It would be my hope that Fe-users will read this post and this thread and realize that what seems self-evident to you is not self-evident to everyone else. And if people disagree with your self-evident truths it's not necessarily because they are <insert pejorative word here>. It might be because they have different values that lead them in different directions.

skylights
10-01-2012, 11:12 PM
My ENFJ 3w4 friend will do this. She's very judgmental and very clearly critical to someone's face when she doesn't like something. My ENFJ 2w3 coworker, on the other hand, will say things like "SOME people ________" very pointedly if he's pissed off - he's usually very positive otherwise and holds individual negative assessments back, though he will agree with you if you're talking negatively about someone else and he agrees. My ESFJ 2w1 mom is generally quieter about everything and will only make a remark, to private company, if someone is really rough. ISTP brother does it to people he feels comfortable with. I've asked him why he feels okay with it, and he basically makes the point that EW did above, which is that the truth is self-evident. He says that he'd rather you know and have the option to change it than you not realizing.

Chiharu
10-02-2012, 12:00 AM
My ENTP brother does this a lot, with varying degrees of hilarity and assholeness.

Orobas
10-02-2012, 02:10 PM
Of course she was trying tro do what was best for your son and to encourage him to be more on his own and fit in with the other children. They were supporting him and you acting in a socially conforming way. The impact of the interaction can be what you describe - invalidating your feelings or your actions as being "wrong" as they are not in the best interests of the collective whole (or something like that).



Right. I think that is exactly what can happen. The "no more special" part I think also may have something to do with a value structure that is aligned with trying to foster humility in the child. There is however a balance between humility, development of the ego, confidence and self esteem. There are also benefits to conforming socially, so some of that thinking is not all bad.

I think that the Fe types will tend to think that the Fi user's feelings are "wrong" at times. "You shouldn't feel that way or think that way and I think less of you because you do."

But there is an arrogance in assuming that one knows what is in the best interest of the collective whole or even my individual child.

It made an assumption that she understood more about my son and his needs than I did and that I needed to step down and allow her to take charge. Something I think that is often ignored is that this Fe nudge is an attempt at social dominance, albeit in a "sweet" way. It is just as much a power play as an overbearing Te dom who is bullying people.

That was the weird part-it FELT like a bunch of power hungry women who didnt have enough power to dominate adults in the real world, so they had instead found a place in which they could exert power over others. They used this as a way to get to treat other adults as though the adults were children. I think this is what made the ISTP very quickly explode and go bonkers on them-he innately had a better feel for the game they are playing than I did.

It also felt as though they were seeking to exclude parents from the educational environment of the children. This was very odd, given the mandate of parental involvement to help kids suceed.. The first day of school, they started discussing what a "good friend" does and how to be "respectful" of others, rather than focusing on teaching content...On one hand this was okay, as I know the little INTJ will memorize this stuff and turn into Te social rules, but it does bring validity to the notion of school not being all about "teaching" but having just a bit of "indoctrination" thrown in...

In retrospect, the school reminded me of the world Madeline L'Engle describes in a Wrinkle in Time, where the giant brain "IT" beats out a similar metrenome time that everyone must follow...it felt oppressive and soulless in spite of having a superifcial appearance of "ideal"and "accepting".

Oddly, the placed a huge emphasis on "diversity", yet all the kids were while middle class kids....it was like they played pretend at being open minded and embracing equality as an idealistic goal, but never had to come face to face with what that really means. It was the talk of platitudes.

At the new school, there is a constant "bubbling" and "boiling" for lack of a better term as you see the intermittant Fi flares, sorting of bouncing off of one another. It "feels" open and accepting- They dont even bother discussing diversity as the student population is 89% minority-they live diversity and the teachers are all biligual. About ten of the other parents routinelly eat with thier kids everyday in the morning-for the little guy, I quickly realized unconscious Se doesnt deal well with a loud lunchroom, so we sit together every morning outside of school and eat breakfast and read books or talk about science together.

We do something different-and it it is okay and not something to be ashamed of-that is what I wish the social norms crowd understood more clearly. We are happy and healthy and dont need to feel the same way as they do, to be happy and healthy.

We accept them, but I wish they would give us the same respect in turn.

Sorry, I am blabbering a bit today :)

Poki
10-02-2012, 02:15 PM
My ENFJ 3w4 friend will do this. She's very judgmental and very clearly critical to someone's face when she doesn't like something. My ENFJ 2w3 coworker, on the other hand, will say things like "SOME people ________" very pointedly if he's pissed off - he's usually very positive otherwise and holds individual negative assessments back, though he will agree with you if you're talking negatively about someone else and he agrees. My ESFJ 2w1 mom is generally quieter about everything and will only make a remark, to private company, if someone is really rough. ISTP brother does it to people he feels comfortable with. I've asked him why he feels okay with it, and he basically makes the point that EW did above, which is that the truth is self-evident. He says that he'd rather you know and have the option to change it than you not realizing.

I am only like this when I am tired of someone and have tried to get away, but for some reason they wont let me. I dont do this on an everyday basis. My goal is to "LEAVE ME THE F ALONE!!!!" I dont deal with people I dont want to.

Orobas
10-02-2012, 02:18 PM
Real friends stab you in the front.

Is that was happens when an ENFJ goes totally bonkers and posts 15 flaming posts on your facebook wall in ten minutes because they dont agree with your political values? She had always been very nice in the past and I adore her and family-but the things she said were so inflammatory and venemous....they were such personal attacks just out of the blue. I figured it meant she must hate me now to say such things.

Poki
10-02-2012, 02:44 PM
Is that was happens when an ENFJ goes totally bonkers and posts 15 flaming posts on your facebook wall in ten minutes because they dont agree with your political values? She had always been very nice in the past and I adore her and family-but the things she said were so inflammatory and venemous....they were such personal attacks just out of the blue. I figured it meant she must hate me now to say such things.

From my experience they dont think they hate you...they want you to change so they can accept. EJs have a way they want you to be and they will push it on you projecting there opinion and view onto you.

Z Buck McFate
10-02-2012, 04:22 PM
Is it because the Te caveman approach would be invalidating (please fill in the more precise word :) ) to a Ti user? I would hear the Te user and go "meh, bob is being a jackass again." It might even be a bit funny. When I hear the Fe user, it is much closer to heart-as though they wiped out the value I expressed as being worthless, and substituted thier own as having more value-thus invalidating the in.

A specific example (a long one, my apologies)-my little one recently started Kindergarten. as a baby INTJ, he was very overwhelmed and would just stand and cry-his little Fi was so overwhelmed and he couldnt figure out a Te action plan-he didnt know what to DO yet-he needed to watch the system a bit and get a hang of the routine.

My thought was that I could sit with him before school while he ate breakfast in the cafeteria, treat him with insulin and then walk him to class, so he could get the hang of things. His school was very Fe heavy, extremely so. It rubbed me a bit funny, but I know this is just me and I wanted him to gain perspective of different types of people, so I tried to ignore it. The first day of school I asked the cafeteria teachers if I could sit and it with him. They said "Well...., no...we really dont have enough chairs for that..." with extremely heavy Fe overtones and a huge wierd smile. I looked over and saw about ten cafeteria tables open.

This wasnt meant to be a put-down, more an attempt to control, but it still felt hurtful. The reason it was hurtful was that, without realizing it, she had dismissed my concerns for my son as being invalid.

Step 1-I love my son> Step 2-he was hurting> Step 3-I needed to give him comfort> Step 4-I tried to provide him supportive structure by eating breakfast with him, in a way that doesnt interfere with his school day > Result: My action was rebuffed, based upon her value judgement, thus inadvertantly, she rendered the expression of love for my son as being invalid. By blocking my action, it reveberated back upon the chain of value based linkages (steps) all the way to step 1.

This backwards reverberation is internally troubling, as if I accept her "replacement" judgement as being correct-it places one of my core values for my son in question....maybe that isnt the right value to hold? This is of course, ridiculous, so in the moment, I make my way back down the value chain-through each step-revalidating that the values are reasonable....then I become angry that she would be so self-centric to try make her own selfish values take precendent over what is best for my child. and become defensive.

The underlined ^^ part is the projection error on my part-it assumes she is an Fi user. Knowing what I know, I dimissed the anger, tried to evaluate the decision as a desire to provide continuity for all the children and just let it go.

We spent three days at this very heavy Fe school, seeing many examples of this same type of behavior. I tried to go with the flow, but ISTP daddy finally snapped and dropped the F-bomb on one of the cross walk ladies. He described them as being (my apologies and no offense intended) "Fucking retarded Nazis" as they just kept trying to enforce rules that were illogical to him, so he requested we move the little guy to a local charter school.

What struck me as very weird was how invalidating the Fe heavy school felt-like the individuality of the children was totally discarded. Instead of "you are a special beautiful little star and filled with potential to do anything you put your mind to, but you do need to follow the rules" (Fi validation, Te affirmation, Te rule setting), the message was "You are no more special than anyone else and dont get special treatment, but we are all in this togehter, let's all be friends together and respect each other and be civil to others by behaving in the same way" (Ti devalidation???/Fe affirmation/Fe behavioral setting)

(He ended up in the local charter school which is pretty Fi heavy. The front lobby is painted silver, kelly green, orange sherbet, off yellow, burgundy, and pink in long vertical stripes a foot wide. It is crazy and I cant pick up Fe from anyone.)


That was the weird part-it FELT like a bunch of power hungry women who didnt have enough power to dominate adults in the real world, so they had instead found a place in which they could exert power over others. They used this as a way to get to treat other adults as though the adults were children. I think this is what made the ISTP very quickly explode and go bonkers on them-he innately had a better feel for the game they are playing than I did.


In retrospect, the school reminded me of the world Madeline L'Engle describes in a Wrinkle in Time, where the giant brain "IT" beats out a similar metrenome time that everyone must follow...it felt oppressive and soulless in spite of having a superifcial appearance of "ideal"and "accepting".





I think most schools are typically just insanely Je heavy. There’s a really (really) stifling one-size-fits-all mentality that trickles down from the top and drowns out any amount of thinking or feeling on an individual level (no one is special! :borg: ). It’s a whole other topic, but in short, I think most schools are a perfect place to find examples of Je gone wrong.

I’m going to guess the woman didn’t even really hear the question as “Can I sit with my son?” so much as she heard “Is it okay for parents to sit with their children while their children eat?” I’m not sure how you asked- whether or not you included something like “because it’s the first day of school, he’s feeling overwhelmed and I think it’s really important for his first impression of school experience to be a positive one- I think that sitting with him while he eats will go a long way in helping him feel less overwhelmed, and the faster we can achieve him feeling secure in this environment the better”- but immediate variables aren’t really as obvious to Je’ers as they are to Ji’ers. The details that immediately come up for Je are more long-term variables; she may have felt like she was being asked if it’s okay to set a precedent of parents being able to sit with their children while they’re children eat (and so- even though there were empty tables there- it’s possible the first ‘detail’ she accessed was having previously had the problem of there not being enough seats because of parents staying with their children, and to stop that from happening again her focus was on making sure parents don’t do it in the first place). Though I do agree that a large part of the problem is a messed up hierarchy of ‘authority’ and bizarre little power games (I agree with what you said, and I’ve long used L’Engle’s stories to describe what I hate most about public education myself), part of it also is being oblivious to immediate details because the focus is on preventing problems experienced before.

In general, a big problem I’ve had with schools is that any amount of that^ kind of explaining (if they even let you say that much in the first place without cutting you off) goes nowhere- like you just get a blank expression, and they repeat what they said in the first place. And the problem often extends beyond the single person, like the people enforcing certain rules are rarely the ones who get any say in deciding what they are. With the example in the quote above (from yesterday), in that situation I can see myself trying to explain (in the way I just mentioned) and if that doesn’t work then I’d be put off but it wouldn’t really hurt my feelings; I’d just think she was a mindless drone and be secretly annoyed my child had to treat this woman like ‘authority’ [though if she looked stressed- instead of giving me a big weird (subtext:fake) smile- I wouldn’t assume it’s thoughtlessness so much as she just can’t handle taking immediate variables into account at the moment because there’s too much pressure for her to get things done a certain way and I’d feel some compassion for her…. but I’d also feel contempt for the system that doesn’t allow for any individuality of any kind].

I’m not really sure how to describe what happens when dealing with Te’ers. It’s not exactly feeling invalidated. Hopefully I’ll find time today to get back to that. [And thanks for that explanation of what it feels like to react to Fe!]


eta: forgot to mention! I bolded "please fill in the precise word" because I thought it was funny. *high fives for effective cross type communication* (and successfully appealing to Ti.)

more eta:
I think that the projection error I tend to make myself with Te’ers is that to dismiss someone else’s pov outright- without putting much thought into what parts could be true and/or why certain aspects of what they said don’t work for me- I’d have to have absolutely no regard for that person’s judgment. In Z Buck’s universe, the extent to which someone tries to understand where another person is coming from is the extent to which they respect the other person’s judgment. So it’s like they might as well flat out be saying “You’re ideas don’t even BEGIN to be important as mine, and not even because of their inherent strength but because I am just inherently more important! Anything I say (no matter how stupid it is) should be given more weight! EVERYONE SHOULD BOW DOWN TO ME! All I need to do to prove this is to act like a caveman and get aggressive with insults!” And I wouldn’t say it hurts my feelings, but rather feels like a blow-horn going off inches from my face and makes it difficult to think. When Fe gets out of control in someone, it *sorta* has the same affect- but I can roll my eyes at it and dismiss it as thoughtlessness. It really is like “Pfft. Whatever.” But with Te, it’s overwhelming. And utterly confounding/stunning because I need things to make sense. It’s like watching someone running over the finish line last and then jumping up and down in excitement because they won- and it seems like the only reason others go along with it is because they get angry and abusive with language when you try to explain how they didn’t actually win. [In case it needs mentioning- that’s Te at its worst, and I do realize it’s coming from the pov of someone who doesn’t ‘get’ Te goals.]

I can deal with the blank expression- when the immediate details I’m trying to point out don’t seem to apply to the situation (because they’re focus on long-term details, which is why it seems to me like they’re just repeating the same thing over and over)- because then it’s just a matter of figuring out how to marry the two extremes for the sake of coming up with the best resolution (and really- I think this is often ideal, as Ti’ers can lose sight of long term details as easily as Te’ers can lose sight of immediate details, so a marriage of the two can give the most well rounded solution). I’m fairly certain I must draw the equivalent blank Fe expression at not understanding how Fi details are supposed to be relevant, at times. But when a Te’er aggressively refuses any immediate details, the position they’re pushing is full of obvious flaws but they refuse to listen to anything and they’re getting so angry at someone else even trying to have a say that they mindlessly throw insults- that’s when it starts feeling like a blow-horn going off inches from my face and it gets difficult to think. I could always tell when my eNTJ was getting near this point. Sometimes he was really good about being patient and listening- but as soon as he started turning pale and furrowing his eyebrows I knew I was getting into Te caveman territory and I’d have to back off or he’d just start throwing insults.

I was really hoping to hear more specific example in this thread of the Fe equivalent. The explanation highlander gave was helpful- but the problem is that it’s vague and I could come up with specific examples on both ends of the spectrum which seem to fit that description (where a Fi’er perceives it that way because they aren’t willing to meet halfway- but also I can see it applying to a Fe’er being a jerk….I’d need to hear a specific dialogue example).

The examples in the op almost seem more like playfulness being taken the wrong way (‘the eighties called and they want their pink polo shirt back’), but it really depends on the context. Sometimes Fe’ers say mean things to vent and deny that’s what’s going on (I think ENTPs are the worst at this, but anyway).

Poki
10-02-2012, 06:16 PM
What struck me as very weird was how invalidating the Fe heavy school felt-like the individuality of the children was totally discarded. Instead of "you are a special beautiful little star and filled with potential to do anything you put your mind to, but you do need to follow the rules" (Fi validation, Te affirmation, Te rule setting), "

To me this comes across as blah, blah, blah...I am trying to be protected and this is nothing more then "fluff". "You need to follow the rules" isnt Te rule setting. But again, I am not Fi so while I see that this stuff bothers Fi and this is how you comfort Fi, it comes across completely different for me. So for me this would be worded differently and "beautiful little star" wouldnt ever come out of my mouth.


the message was "You are no more special than anyone else and dont get special treatment, but we are all in this togehter, let's all be friends together and respect each other and be civil to others by behaving in the same way" (Ti devalidation???/Fe affirmation/Fe behavioral setting)

the "lets all be friends" crap rubs me the wrong way as well. "Lets be civil and respect each other". is good. This isnt Fe. Fe says this is how things are done and lays it out. Lets be civil and respectful isnt telling you what you actually need to do.


For me everything starts out with what happend, followed by a discussion of the situation and then for things like school..."you need to follow the rules" or people.."you need to respect other people" Rules apply to everyone, respect is individual.


I am gonna stay out of Fi validation and Ti devaluation because both Fi and Ti do the same thing, just in different ways. Fi is blind to what it does and calls it "being who you are and your individual star" when it comes to devaluation. Just as Ti can be.

Poki
10-02-2012, 06:23 PM
Fe put down....My ex made the comment..."I didnt ask to be your mom". My comeback..."or your dads mom, or your friends mom...you know what...no one asks you to be there mom, you just have this need to tell people how they should run there life. Thats why your dad doesnt even tell when he buys something, because he is tired of your lip"

Z Buck McFate
10-02-2012, 06:41 PM
To me this comes across as blah, blah, blah...I am trying to be protected and this is nothing more then "fluff". "You need to follow the rules" isnt Te rule setting. But again, I am not Fi so while I see that this stuff bothers F and this is how you comfort Fi, it comes across completely different for me. So for me this would be worded differently and "beautiful little star" wouldnt ever come out of my mouth.

Yeah, I agree with this in that 'beautiful little star' is (unfortunately) likely going to go in one ear and out the other. I agree with the premise of the 'beautiful little star' precept- that ideally education SHOULD make kids tap into their inner beautiful little star- but it's put in a language that isn't palatable to the Fe school system borg. I'd word it differently to make things more palatable, to try to explain how what I immediately want IS in fact part of the 'education' goal that benefits everyone.

Poki
10-02-2012, 07:07 PM
Fe put down....My ex made the comment..."I didnt ask to be your mom". My comeback..."or your dads mom, or your friends mom...you know what...no one asks you to be there mom, you just have this need to tell people how they should run there life. Thats why your dad doesnt even tell when he buys something, because he is tired of your lip"

and when it got bad my next response would have been..."thats one of the reasons I divorced your ass, I wasnt looking for a mom." Those are Ti put downs.

garbage
10-02-2012, 08:32 PM
What I have noticed though, is that it seems to be an Fe user thing. For instance, I don't ever see many Fi users doing it, except on some occasions I may see ESFP's doing it. I have never seen one ENFP or an INTJ do this in my entire life.
Please explain the anomaly here.

ms.behaving
10-02-2012, 09:04 PM
Is that was happens when an ENFJ goes totally bonkers and posts 15 flaming posts on your facebook wall in ten minutes because they dont agree with your political values? She had always been very nice in the past and I adore her and family-but the things she said were so inflammatory and venemous....they were such personal attacks just out of the blue. I figured it meant she must hate me now to say such things.

I'd like to believe Fe has a little more self-control and discretion than that. And frankly, I don't want to be the one to throw Fe in a box, or throw it to the wind, or feed it to the wolves. I personally do not do the "cause a scene" public attacks on people. If we are in a more private setting, I can get pretty passionate, it's true. I have a strict personal policy of not stabbing friends or family in the back. I will confront them.

Esoteric Wench
10-02-2012, 10:23 PM
I'd like to believe Fe has a little more self-control and discretion than that. And frankly, I don't want to be the one to throw Fe in a box, or throw it to the wind, or feed it to the wolves. I personally do not do the "cause a scene" public attacks on people. If we are in a more private setting, I can get pretty passionate, it's true. I have a strict personal policy of not stabbing friends or family in the back. I will confront them.

I'm not saying you have, but I've known other ENFJs to do exactly this: they will "cause a scene" in public to get their point across by namely trying to shame the other person. I've always considered this an extreme example of Fe gone awry. Not every Fe user does this, but the one's who do have gone to the dark side with it.

Within
10-02-2012, 10:58 PM
Personally I only have one major experience with what you refer to as a 'Fe put-down' it basically consists of a ENFP guy that consciously made straw-man arguments as well as circulars ones against me in order to please the crowd, quite humiliating. Interruptions is another tool of this particular flavor of asinine.

One or two years later when I found myself located in a position to replay the favor. I committed to it fully, and relentlessly.

Having a near to perfect memory regarding such events can be both a curse and a blessing, insects trapped in amber.

In this particular case I made myself into god inside this sphere of a perfect moment. Orgasmically I felt a surge of Dumas-esque energy surge through my spine as I witnessed the utter destruction of my enemy.

Other events can not possibly equal to that one, as is why better referred to as attempted 'Fe put-downs', most of which are as easily flipped on themselves as a contorting spastic limb.

This tug of war has no winners, well it does but it's by marginal. The judge being the drooling troglodyte audience observing amber harden.

That says enough about the actual context of the issue at hand, it's no bigger issue than your pride makes it out to be.

Lexicon
10-02-2012, 11:19 PM
I'm not saying you have, but I've known other ENFJs to do exactly this: they will "cause a scene" in public to get their point across by namely trying to shame the other person. I've always considered this an extreme example of Fe gone awry. Not every Fe user does this, but the one's who do have gone to the dark side with it.

I've experienced a VERY unhealthy ENFJ doing this^ very thing-- to me, as well as his friends, & his enemies. It's breaking a person down through sensationalized, excessive shame.. it's.. well, pathetic & retarded. Unfortunately, if it's done to someone in such a way that it plays on that individual's deepest insecurities- AND it happens to be someone that the person has placed a lot of emotional trust in- then it can be quite damaging. It's an ugly thing to watch, and really consider, especially as a fellow Fe user. I could never do that to someone. It sickens me.

ms.behaving
10-02-2012, 11:58 PM
I'm not saying you have, but I've known other ENFJs to do exactly this: they will "cause a scene" in public to get their point across by namely trying to shame the other person. I've always considered this an extreme example of Fe gone awry. Not every Fe user does this, but the one's who do have gone to the dark side with it.

I know stress isn't pretty on Fe. I've learned when Fe becomes a maniac, it would mean a lot if you would just say, "I'm sorry." Or say something that indicates you care about what happened.

AntiheroComplex
10-03-2012, 05:47 AM
Real friends stab you in the front.

Real friends don't stab you at all.

You
10-03-2012, 08:51 PM
it depends on what you are stabbing the friend with.

Qlip
10-03-2012, 08:52 PM
Real friends let you stab them.

Saturned
10-03-2012, 08:52 PM
Real friends let you stab them.

True friends stab you in the front. -Oscar Wilde-

Qlip
10-03-2012, 08:54 PM
Real friends stab you in the front.


True friends stab you in the front. -Oscar Wilde-

We came around to a full stabby circle. :wubbie:

Saturned
10-03-2012, 08:56 PM
We came around to a full stabby circle. :wubbie:

I didn't even see the other post, :laugh:. I just saw yours pop up in ispy and my brain decreed that I must post responding to you.

skylights
10-03-2012, 08:58 PM
I'm not saying you have, but I've known other ENFJs to do exactly this: they will "cause a scene" in public to get their point across by namely trying to shame the other person. I've always considered this an extreme example of Fe gone awry. Not every Fe user does this, but the one's who do have gone to the dark side with it.

Yeah, my coworker did this once when he got really mad. He wouldn't shut up about it the entire day. Given, someone else really had been really insensitive, but I don't think she meant to, she was actually trying to protect him. I guess to my Te it was really frustrating though, I was like can we just please address this issue or drop it... I don't care which, but choose one and stop making us all miserable...


Real friends don't stab you at all.

Or, at least, the best friends try to help you see your blind spots while not harming you in the process...

I do think this is something Fe doms are very good at. They help people change their destructive behavior.

ms.behaving
10-03-2012, 10:28 PM
We came around to a full stabby circle. :wubbie:

Indeed! This is proof that not only do brilliant Fe and Fi minds think alike, they share the same reference material as well.

Poki
10-04-2012, 04:26 AM
Indeed! This is proof that not only do brilliant Fe and Fi minds think alike, they share the same reference material as well.

Thats a scary thought...nothing against you, just scary with the Fe I know.

Kalach
10-04-2012, 06:24 AM
"Your momma so fat, she must be a really great cook."

The Great One
10-04-2012, 08:26 PM
Please explain the anomaly here.

That's what I am trying to figure out as well. Maybe it's also in relation to an enneagram type thing with people that are social first in their instinct variant stacking?

Edgar
10-06-2012, 12:02 AM
I'm not saying you have, but I've known other ENFJs to do exactly this: they will "cause a scene" in public to get their point across by namely trying to shame the other person. I've always considered this an extreme example of Fe gone awry. Not every Fe user does this, but the one's who do have gone to the dark side with it.

Here's a good example of "shit side of Fe"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVFv6BAH0yM

ceecee
10-06-2012, 12:37 AM
I know stress isn't pretty on Fe. I've learned when Fe becomes a maniac, it would mean a lot if you would just say, "I'm sorry." Or say something that indicates you care about what happened.

Once someones' "caring" is questioned, nothing they could ever do or say could be enough to convince the ENFJ that they do care.

ms.behaving
10-06-2012, 05:27 PM
Once someones' "caring" is questioned, nothing they could ever do or say could be enough to convince the ENFJ that they do care.
Earlier in the week, Fidelia wrote a great post explaining Fe and similar misperceptions. It's in the Fe vs Fi thread. I hope you'll read it. :)

garbage
10-06-2012, 05:43 PM
Here's a good example of "shit side of Fe"
Oh. Oh, God. What an overreaction on his part. :doh:

But perhaps it was also Fe that rectified the situation, too (http://www.slate.com/blogs/trending/2012/07/19/nerdcore_rapper_mc_chris_incurs_internet_wrath_aft er_kicking_twitter_heckler_out_of_show_.html). Y'all can be the judge.

Ah, it solved a problem that it itself caused. Fantastic.

Earlier in the week, Fidelia wrote a great post explaining Fe and similar misperceptions. It's in the Fe vs Fi thread. I hope you'll read it. :)
If anyone can find this, please link it. Or, I will if I'm not too lazy.

ms.behaving
10-06-2012, 05:57 PM
If anyone can find this, please link it. Or, I will if I'm not too lazy.
Here's one of the quotes. Everything Fidelia said in the thread was excellent.


I don't think you are hating on Fe. I find these kind of threads really interesting because I like to know what things look like from an outsider's perspective. If it's any comfort, one thing I've found is that the more the person is willing to take responsibility for their part in what went wrong, the more comfort that the Fe person is prepared to offer. Their lecturing is not an attempt to make you feel even more terrible than you already do, but rather is them being afraid that you don't understand where things went off the rails. Once they know that you know that, then they are going to focus on how to make you feel better. Again, it's not so much a matter of attributing blame (which to me seems kind of pointless after the fact), but rather trying to change the outcome for next time by figuring out where things fell apart and how it could be changed for next time.

I realized as I was reading through here that both 21% and I feel much better (and more closure) when we have a problem with someone if we can both agree on what happened and why and then come up with a course of action to avoid it the next time. Then the uncomfortable feelings dissipate on their own. Without doing this, it feels like the situation is just left hanging and unresolved and the same thing could blow up again without warning. What I'm hearing from the Fi side is that their sense of closure is provided by being able to explore the feeling side of things first (in a safe environment) or have time to work it out on their own and then the course of action to take naturally becomes apparent. Maybe Fe and Fi start with the opposite ends of the problem.

In the same way, Te wants to take action first and then discuss from there, while Ti wants the whole system figured out before embarking on any course of action. In that case, I don't like embarking on a course of action until I can see where it is going to end up and if it makes sense as a whole, rather than improvising as I go. Is there a correlate from a Fe/Fi perspective?

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58869&p=1970678&viewfull=1#post1970678

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58869&p=1970702&viewfull=1#post1970702

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58869&p=1970722&viewfull=1#post1970722

Riva
10-06-2012, 07:09 PM
Yes.You should see the fucking ENTPs in vent. :rolleyes:any examples that cross your mind?
:D Damn, tertiary Fi is on a roll these days :ninja:Cute isn't it?

Amargith
10-06-2012, 07:16 PM
Cute isn't it?

:wubbie:

Don't get me wrong though, it often needs to be properly housebroken :dry:

Zarathustra
10-06-2012, 07:39 PM
any examples that cross your mind?

Yes.

Two or three.

phobik
10-06-2012, 08:27 PM
Here's a good example of "shit side of Fe"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVFv6BAH0yM

That's not Fe, that's just retarded self-righteous narcissism. His castle, and the loyal subjects subscribe to the doctrine, so that's their prerogative.

Poki
10-06-2012, 11:21 PM
I wonder if it isn't...I dunno, a form of humour? That gets experienced as a slight? I can imagine that Fe-users would find it very amusing to notice those things that are outside the realm of what is generally considered the norm in society. Granted, if it makes them feel uncomfortable, it will likely be a projection of their uncomfortableness...but Ive seen Fe-users who are comfortable in their own skin just be amused by the Fe-irony present in whatever it is the other person is doing that is outside the social norm.

If the other person however is an Fe-tard, or less focused on the Fe-perspective, they might not really realise that they are being unintentionally humorous for those with an Fe-perspective. Miscommunication is likely to ensue.

Kind of like how T-types insult each other to express affection, or pick at each others slips and use it as 'proof' that the other isnt T or isnt intelligent, while their intelligence is clear to anyone around?

I just noticed this. I dont see that in Fe. Fe would care to much about image to find it humerous. I get a kick out of it when people do things like that and I may even joke or play with it. I dont usually care much about image so I guess I assume others dont care as much either :unsure: If they respond strongly to the joking I will stop.

Being dominant T I like to joke about stuff and be a smart ass. I have no desire to prove someone isnt intelligent, nor do I think that because you dont know one thing in a certain area that you are stupid or less intelligent. I just like to poke at slip ups and people can feel free to poke at mine. The TP types I know dont express affection in that manner, but the TJ types I know do.

Orobas
10-13-2012, 11:54 PM
Yeah, I agree with this in that 'beautiful little star' is (unfortunately) likely going to go in one ear and out the other. I agree with the premise of the 'beautiful little star' precept- that ideally education SHOULD make kids tap into their inner beautiful little star- but it's put in a language that isn't palatable to the Fe school system borg. I'd word it differently to make things more palatable, to try to explain how what I immediately want IS in fact part of the 'education' goal that benefits everyone.


To me this comes across as blah, blah, blah...I am trying to be protected and this is nothing more then "fluff". "You need to follow the rules" isnt Te rule setting. But again, I am not Fi so while I see that this stuff bothers Fi and this is how you comfort Fi, it comes across completely different for me. So for me this would be worded differently and "beautiful little star" wouldnt ever come out of my mouth.

^^I think this may be something very important to note as a point of difference. It sounds corny and silly, but the notion of another possessing an amazing, internal beauty is very important in how I perceive and understand others.

When I moved little INTJ to the second school, his teacher, an esfp, gave me a homework assignment. "In a million words or less, in english or spanish, tell me all the wonderful things about your child. Tell me what they like and how I can help them learn". By understanding all the things the children value and things we value in the children, she is really expressing acceptance of those values. The message is that even though you like different things from me and we wont always agree, I accept you as being of worth and value-by asking and acknowledging the individual Fi values you hold.

I think maybe the parallel occurs in Fe/Ti, but perhaps is phrased as what do you think about this, what are your ideas about this?


I think most schools are typically just insanely Je heavy. There’s a really (really) stifling one-size-fits-all mentality that trickles down from the top and drowns out any amount of thinking or feeling on an individual level (no one is special! :borg: ). It’s a whole other topic, but in short, I think most schools are a perfect place to find examples of Je gone wrong.

I’m going to guess the woman didn’t even really hear the question as “Can I sit with my son?” so much as she heard “Is it okay for parents to sit with their children while their children eat?” I’m not sure how you asked- whether or not you included something like “because it’s the first day of school, he’s feeling overwhelmed and I think it’s really important for his first impression of school experience to be a positive one- I think that sitting with him while he eats will go a long way in helping him feel less overwhelmed, and the faster we can achieve him feeling secure in this environment the better”- but immediate variables aren’t really as obvious to Je’ers as they are to Ji’ers. The details that immediately come up for Je are more long-term variables; she may have felt like she was being asked if it’s okay to set a precedent of parents being able to sit with their children while they’re children eat (and so- even though there were empty tables there- it’s possible the first ‘detail’ she accessed was having previously had the problem of there not being enough seats because of parents staying with their children, and to stop that from happening again her focus was on making sure parents don’t do it in the first place). Though I do agree that a large part of the problem is a messed up hierarchy of ‘authority’ and bizarre little power games (I agree with what you said, and I’ve long used L’Engle’s stories to describe what I hate most about public education myself), part of it also is being oblivious to immediate details because the focus is on preventing problems experienced before.

In general, a big problem I’ve had with schools is that any amount of that^ kind of explaining (if they even let you say that much in the first place without cutting you off) goes nowhere- like you just get a blank expression, and they repeat what they said in the first place. And the problem often extends beyond the single person, like the people enforcing certain rules are rarely the ones who get any say in deciding what they are. With the example in the quote above (from yesterday), in that situation I can see myself trying to explain (in the way I just mentioned) and if that doesn’t work then I’d be put off but it wouldn’t really hurt my feelings; I’d just think she was a mindless drone and be secretly annoyed my child had to treat this woman like ‘authority’ [though if she looked stressed- instead of giving me a big weird (subtext:fake) smile- I wouldn’t assume it’s thoughtlessness so much as she just can’t handle taking immediate variables into account at the moment because there’s too much pressure for her to get things done a certain way and I’d feel some compassion for her…. but I’d also feel contempt for the system that doesn’t allow for any individuality of any kind].

Orobas-^^This is extremely helpful to understand!!! Especially the part about the immediate variable. very helpful and helps me understand her perspective/B]

I’m not really sure how to describe what happens when dealing with Te’ers. It’s not exactly feeling invalidated. Hopefully I’ll find time today to get back to that. [And thanks for that explanation of what it feels like to react to Fe!]


eta: forgot to mention! I bolded "please fill in the precise word" because I thought it was funny. *high fives for effective cross type communication* (and successfully appealing to Ti.)

[B]Orboas- :)

more eta:
I think that the projection error I tend to make myself with Te’ers is that to dismiss someone else’s pov outright- without putting much thought into what parts could be true and/or why certain aspects of what they said don’t work for me- I’d have to have absolutely no regard for that person’s judgment. In Z Buck’s universe, the extent to which someone tries to understand where another person is coming from is the extent to which they respect the other person’s judgment.

Orobas-how would an individual have an answer refined to be particular to them? This may be a weird way to ask...do all answers NEED to be particular to an individual-or should the answer provided just be expressed in a way that allows room for people to request/implement/customize/modify to fit their particular needs? I think Fi may feel the same sort of projection with Fe-mostly we dont disagree, but we respect the right of individuals to differ. so it leaves no more for that indidivual adaptation.

So it’s like they might as well flat out be saying “You’re ideas don’t even BEGIN to be important as mine, and not even because of their inherent strength but because I am just inherently more important! Anything I say (no matter how stupid it is) should be given more weight! EVERYONE SHOULD BOW DOWN TO ME! All I need to do to prove this is to act like a caveman and get aggressive with insults!”

Orobas-I am having issues understanding how respect and ideas interrelate-what does respect mean to you, how does it relate to how you perceive yourself? In a more global system of people...how does respect tie into concepts of self-esteem and how does respecting others help them integrate into the social system? (sort of a tangent, but a very blind spot for me :) )

And I wouldn’t say it hurts my feelings, but rather feels like a blow-horn going off inches from my face and makes it difficult to think. When Fe gets out of control in someone, it *sorta* has the same affect- but I can roll my eyes at it and dismiss it as thoughtlessness. It really is like “Pfft. Whatever.” But with Te, it’s overwhelming. And utterly confounding/stunning because I need things to make sense. It’s like watching someone running over the finish line last and then jumping up and down in excitement because they won- and it seems like the only reason others go along with it is because they get angry and abusive with language when you try to explain how they didn’t actually win. [In case it needs mentioning- that’s Te at its worst, and I do realize it’s coming from the pov of someone who doesn’t ‘get’ Te goals.]

I can deal with the blank expression- when the immediate details I’m trying to point out don’t seem to apply to the situation (because they’re focus on long-term details, which is why it seems to me like they’re just repeating the same thing over and over)- because then it’s just a matter of figuring out how to marry the two extremes for the sake of coming up with the best resolution (and really- I think this is often ideal, as Ti’ers can lose sight of long term details as easily as Te’ers can lose sight of immediate details, so a marriage of the two can give the most well rounded solution). I’m fairly certain I must draw the equivalent blank Fe expression at not understanding how Fi details are supposed to be relevant, at times. But when a Te’er aggressively refuses any immediate details, the position they’re pushing is full of obvious flaws but they refuse to listen to anything and they’re getting so angry at someone else even trying to have a say that they mindlessly throw insults- that’s when it starts feeling like a blow-horn going off inches from my face and it gets difficult to think. I could always tell when my eNTJ was getting near this point. Sometimes he was really good about being patient and listening- but as soon as he started turning pale and furrowing his eyebrows I knew I was getting into Te caveman territory and I’d have to back off or he’d just start throwing insults.

I was really hoping to hear more specific example in this thread of the Fe equivalent. The explanation highlander gave was helpful- but the problem is that it’s vague and I could come up with specific examples on both ends of the spectrum which seem to fit that description (where a Fi’er perceives it that way because they aren’t willing to meet halfway- but also I can see it applying to a Fe’er being a jerk….I’d need to hear a specific dialogue example).

The examples in the op almost seem more like playfulness being taken the wrong way (‘the eighties called and they want their pink polo shirt back’), but it really depends on the context. Sometimes Fe’ers say mean things to vent and deny that’s what’s going on (I think ENTPs are the worst at this, but anyway).


I know stress isn't pretty on Fe. I've learned when Fe becomes a maniac, it would mean a lot if you would just say, "I'm sorry." Or say something that indicates you care about what happened.

From here how do you then reframe the issue in a way that isnt offense to the enfj but does allow the conversation to continue to find a resolution?