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View Full Version : Was Leonardo da Vinci an ISTP or INTP?



RaptorWizard
04-04-2012, 11:38 PM
I have commonly seen him typed as both on various threads throughout the internet. Which one is he?

da Vinci quotes:
“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.”
“Life is pretty simple: You do some stuff. Most fails. Some works. You do more of what works. If it works big, others quickly copy it. Then you do something else. The trick is the doing something else.”
“The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions.”
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.”
“I have been impressed with the urgency of doing. Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Being willing is not enough; we must do.”
“The knowledge of all things is possible”
“All sciences are vain and full of errors that are not born of Experience, the mother of all Knowledge.”
“Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.”
“Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!”

lauranna
04-09-2012, 11:15 AM
OK, so I am no expert on this, but is it really possible to accurately type people who have been dead for years and nobody actually knows them or has met them? Even when typing celebrities based on interviews and public persona i still wonder how accurate it can be?

KDude
04-10-2012, 11:44 AM
OK, so I am no expert on this, but is it really possible to accurately type people who have been dead for years and nobody actually knows them or has met them? Even when typing celebrities based on interviews and public persona i still wonder how accurate it can be?

I agree, it's not that clear. You can tell sometimes by the method of reasoning they consistently use though. Like Steven Hawking jumps out to me as Ne and Ti (and I think he's ENTP, not INTP.. despite being immobilized and in a wheelchair. He refers to his reasoning indirectly and focuses consistently on outside objects and possibilities, and presents a lot situational "thought experiments" to make his point, not walking you through the reasoning itself.. like Descartes or Kant would do). Don't know much about Da Vinci though. At first glance, I would have thought introverted perception.

Extroverted functions, being extroverted, are easier to see as well. If you single out which one it is, then you might be able limit what other corresponding ones are working with it. But sometimes, it's easy to mistake behaviors in isolated instances as typical of the person as a whole. You would see Se in ENJs, for example, but it could be broken down further.

alcea rosea
04-10-2012, 04:59 PM
Based on a book (based on his diaries) that I read, I'd definitely say he was a primary Ne user, so ENTP.

RaptorWizard
04-10-2012, 06:56 PM
Based on a book (based on his diaries) that I read, I'd definitely say he was a primary Ne user, so ENTP.

Does an ENTP write, observe, draw, and paint in extremely elaborate detail? An INTP or ISTP would. If he was dominant intuition, he wouldn't be focusing on these experience based phenomena. Ti might.

KDude
04-10-2012, 07:05 PM
Does an ENTP write, observe, draw, and paint in extremely elaborate detail? An INTP or ISTP would. If he was dominant intuition, he wouldn't be focusing on these experience based phenomena. Ti might.

Of course they can do that. Types aren't behaviors. The reasoning and impetus behind the behaviors is the difference. And N isn't so removed from observation as to be blind. All perceptive functions see and experience things. That's why it's Perceiving. Like I said, I don't know enough about him to say ENTJ, INTP, or ESTJ or whatever, but I know that types don't work that way. Think about it for a second. Those behavioral descriptions on the net are just beyond stupid. Like ISFPs are "artists" and ISTPs are mechanics. Nothing is that simple.

Anew Leaf
04-10-2012, 07:11 PM
Of course they can do that. Types aren't behaviors. The reasoning and impetus behind the behaviors is the difference. And N isn't so removed from observation as to be blind. All perceptive functions see and experience things. That's why it's Perceiving. Like I said, I don't know enough about him to say ENTJ, INTP, or ESTJ or whatever, but I know that types don't work that way. Think about it for a second. Those behavioral descriptions on the net are just beyond stupid. Like ISFPs are "artists" and ISTPs are mechanics. Nothing is that simple.

I agree with this here.

I will admit that my guess would be that he is an ENTP based on what I studied of him during my tenure as an art major in college.

However, threads like these are the ultimate time wasting Italian roundabouts to nowhere.

RaptorWizard
04-10-2012, 07:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPveWqSSMDU&list=FL9cUbZXvnnM0PrttUHAngcg&index=68&feature=plpp_video

Behold the marriage of the physical with the imagination... both S and N lol

alcea rosea
04-11-2012, 09:52 AM
Does an ENTP write, observe, draw, and paint in extremely elaborate detail? An INTP or ISTP would. If he was dominant intuition, he wouldn't be focusing on these experience based phenomena. Ti might.

I don't mean detail and all that stuff. I mean how he writes in his diaries about his thought process, his behavior, being interested in everything, doing everything, changing of his inspiration in a second, and his enthusiasm and his skills in brainstorming and developing new, being able to came up with new ways of doing things and the enthusiasm of all things. I would say quite definitely that what he writes in his diaries is a pretty sharp description of Ne in use. But he isn't too much of considering other people and so on, so I would say rather ENTP than any F-type. His secondary function would then be Ti which would of course be quite logical for "Leonardo the generalist". ;)

RaptorWizard
04-11-2012, 05:34 PM
http://www.celebritytypes.com/intp.php

The above website has da Vinci listed as INTP.

http://forums.intpcentral.com/archive/index.php/t-1657.html

On the above forum they make cases for ISTP, INTP, and ENTP, but INTP seems more likely since that is the balancing point between those 3 types.

IceBlock
04-17-2012, 02:17 AM
Well, he is a Perceiver for sure, I guess no one can disagree on that. I guess he's a Thinker too. Introverted Thinker I'd say.
But his information-gathering function is so balanced between Extroverted iNtuition and Extroverted Sensation that I guess he's one of that persons that have a almost perfect measure between those. Also, he was so talented in areas where N is better used (such as math, physics) and S is better used (such as painting, sculpting) that makes me think again he had both very well developed.

But I can't see the ESTP feel coming out of him. So, we have:

ENTP
INTP
ISTP

So I guess these three is well accepted. But if I had to choose one, It'd be ENTP 5w?

Anew Leaf
04-17-2012, 02:48 AM
Clearly he was an INFP because we are awesome and he was awesome and ERGO he is INFP.

/thread

RaptorWizard
04-17-2012, 02:54 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqb29AyYlYs&list=FL9cUbZXvnnM0PrttUHAngcg&index=2&feature=plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBHSc2RblE&feature=BFa&list=FL9cUbZXvnnM0PrttUHAngcg&lf=plpp_video

IceBlock
04-17-2012, 11:13 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqb29AyYlYs&list=FL9cUbZXvnnM0PrttUHAngcg&index=2&feature=plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBBHSc2RblE&feature=BFa&list=FL9cUbZXvnnM0PrttUHAngcg&lf=plpp_video

I've seen both. And wow. I've always been obsessed with Leonardo's many talents and the fact he didn't fully explore just one. I like how he started many projects, and fininshed few - something I relate to. Anyway, I've seen through the entire video and pointed out important parts which may relate to Leonardo's personality.


First Video

2:34 - The first of many Leonardo's signs he likes to observate, feel the environment. Se behavior.

3:03 - Leonardo was apparently reserved. Clear introversion sign.

3:14 - Talks about his curiosity about the natural world, examining and studying everything. Yet another great Se sign.

13:36 - Leonardo didn't like violence. Yet he develops deadly war machines. Don't know if you think so, but this seems to me like a lack of Fi, since he doesn't show any value system.

15:15 - Leonardo was impatient. He wanted to create master-pieces right away. In other words, he was impatient with the process of learning and doing, and wanted to move to the hard things right away. This seems pretty SP for me, for the impulsiveness.

17:23 - The deciding of painting in oil instead shows on him some inovative and creative mind. This makes even less likely for him being a SJ, or simply a J, i guess.

21:07 - "If there's no love... what then?". Feeling traces? Nah, I guess not.

23:39 - Again, an introversion trace. Reservation and unwilling to reveal what he's up to.

23:50 - Leonardo's trying to convince the ruler with militar weaponry and things related to destruction and death even though he's not adept to wars. I can't see any strong value system there, if you ask. So no Fi, maybe?

26:48 and on - Leonardo wondered and made observations related to Se, Ne and even Ni. Oh wow.

33:07 - Leonardy seems to defies what is seemingly absurd to the time. Not only about the horse, about another already accepted cientific discoveries he denied, studied, and then came up to a new conclusion. Again, Leonardo is absurdly curious, does not accept what is strangely absolute. This may be a NT trace, but I'm not sure.

34:26 - Again, he supposedly does not like violence, but keep inventing war machines. No value system involved at all.

44:07 - Does anyone here still thinks he is a judger?

45:00 - Once again, his observations skills. No, more than that: he had a need for observating, so everything stayed perfect, the way nature is.


Second Video


5:21 - A vision worth of a general, a captain, I must say. He perceived the obvious, but in that time this was absurd, and once again defied and proposed an idea that would give a strong advantage for the Venetians.

17:29 - Pragmatic. Another SP characteristic.

17:39 - Another P characteristic. Even though he needed money, he didn't finished some of those unwanted jobs.

21:55 - Variety of obsessions, interests. Strong Ne sign.

22:16 - Uncanny love for birds, and the nature itself. Fi may not be that low after all.

32:22 - Inconstant. iNtuitive Perceiver signal for sure.

34:59 - Leonardo was willing to break laws in order to know more. No principles, no system value. He only want to know more and more.

42:56 - Still thinks he's a judger, anyone?


Conclusion

Well, above anything, Leonardo was curious. Absurdly curious. Some stuff he would observe, others he would imagine in his head with accuracy. The fact is that he is an example os perfect Se and Ne balance: he'd observe things so he understands the true nature of that, and'd imagine endless possibilites for anything in his life. Actually, the human life itself is too short for Leonardo completing everything he studied and got interested in. Regarding that, he got this Extraverted iNtuition Perceiving feel going around, because he imagined infinite possibilities, enthusiastically started them, but occasionaly lost interest and went to another, yet still always willing on going back to the first one someday. I know that because I'm Ne dom and a Perceiver. In the other hand, he didn't only speculated crazy theories in his head; he went out there and observed whatever needed to be observed.
It didn't become clear to me his decision-making function, but the most likely is Ti, since he had this need for understanding how things work.
He's probably an introvert. The way he managed his life made this impression on me, but I'm not sure...
He's a perceiver, also.

This way, I'm only down to INTP, ISTP, ENTP, ESTP, again. But now, if I had to choose one, it'd be INTP.

One thing is right though... he is by far the most talented human being that ever existed, and it's hard to imagine a human mind as developed as his.

pinkgraffiti
04-19-2012, 12:16 AM
lol just to add to the confusion of this thread, i have a friend that is ENTP and he's always been great at drawing. so i don't think the two exclude. (i read something about...i think in the socionics website - about Ne dom people being really good at one particular sensing activity (and not caring about it). so painting could be his).
i think he's definitely an enneagram 7 right? what mbti types are associated with that?
i'm going to narrow this down to ENTP vs INTP girl
ps: total lolz to infp protest bellow yours (i can't double quote)


Well, he is a Perceiver for sure, I guess no one can disagree on that. I guess he's a Thinker too. Introverted Thinker I'd say.
But his information-gathering function is so balanced between Extroverted iNtuition and Extroverted Sensation that I guess he's one of that persons that have a almost perfect measure between those. Also, he was so talented in areas where N is better used (such as math, physics) and S is better used (such as painting, sculpting) that makes me think again he had both very well developed.

But I can't see the ESTP feel coming out of him. So, we have:

ENTP
INTP
ISTP

So I guess these three is well accepted. But if I had to choose one, It'd be ENTP 5w?

RaptorWizard
04-19-2012, 01:21 AM
lol just to add to the confusion of this thread, i have a friend that is ENTP and he's always been great at drawing. so i don't think the two exclude. (i read something about...i think in the socionics website - about Ne dom people being really good at one particular sensing activity (and not caring about it). so painting could be his).
i think he's definitely an enneagram 7 right? what mbti types are associated with that?
i'm going to narrow this down to ENTP vs INTP girl
ps: total lolz to infp protest bellow yours (i can't double quote)

I would say 7 may be his second, but 5 would have to be his first because he was, after all, the man who wanted to know everything, the clear sign of an investigater.

RaptorWizard
04-25-2012, 06:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU1iDOxbajY&list=FL9cUbZXvnnM0PrttUHAngcg&index=2&feature=plpp_video

RaptorWizard
04-25-2012, 06:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExtaJEIVnuI&list=FL9cUbZXvnnM0PrttUHAngcg&index=121&feature=plpp_video

Turtledove
04-25-2012, 06:29 PM
I wouldn't have never questioned his type being other than INTP because his extravagant ideas of machinary were so outside the norm, and I always viewed him as an outcast which I view ISTPs to not be. I might be getting him mixed up with Michelangelo, but wasn't he born out of wedlock and that was like a big deal back in those days? So, he was given like a "scarlet letter" in his early years.

RaptorWizard
04-25-2012, 06:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_5E6jyB8k4&feature=my_favorites&list=FL9cUbZXvnnM0PrttUHAngcg

RaptorWizard
04-25-2012, 06:42 PM
I wouldn't have never questioned his type being other than INTP because his extravagant ideas of machinary were so outside the norm, and I always viewed him as an outcast which I view ISTPs to not be. I might be getting him mixed up with Michelangelo, but wasn't he born out of wedlock and that was like a big deal back in those days? So, he was given like a "scarlet letter" in his early years.

Ya I don't even think he knew who his father was, but his mother was a peasant woman named caterina.

entropie
04-25-2012, 06:42 PM
Aint he dead ?

RaptorWizard
04-25-2012, 06:44 PM
Aint he dead ?

The life force of the Creator is forever sealed within his legendary paintings and his inscrutably detailed notebooks.

entropie
04-25-2012, 06:45 PM
Do you do drugs ?

RaptorWizard
04-25-2012, 06:46 PM
Do you do drugs ?

I take medicine every day... so yes lol

entropie
04-25-2012, 06:52 PM
ok then, carry on !

I have no idea regarding da Vinci. I have visited an exhibition last month where they showed some of his work rebuild by hobby model makers and by all means he was an ingenieous engineer and lateral thinker. So far we used to give him intj or entp and I tended to lean more towards entp, cause intjs are systemic thinkers and only the best of them manage to think out of the box.

Da Vinci strikes me as an older version of Evariste Galois, the french mathematician who invented imaginary number space, which enabled engineers to solve more kinematic systems than before.

RaptorWizard
05-10-2012, 01:48 AM
http://www.wagele.com/Famous.html

the above website thinks da vinci is ISTP... interesting piece of evidence

polikujm
05-10-2012, 05:22 PM
The only problem is, if we're not using Keirsey, I don't see why he has to be a P just because he's an artist and inventor.

I would think INTP seems likely though.

RaptorWizard
05-10-2012, 05:30 PM
The only problem is, if we're not using Keirsey, I don't see why he has to be a P just because he's an artist and inventor.

I would think INTP seems likely though.

I think da Vinci was notorious for not finishing the many works he began, and in his whole lifetime completed only 12 paintings, so that would point to P, but once again I may be greatly underestimating the INTJ type, and would be very interested if an argument could be made for him being INTJ.

There are times I even wonder myself if I am INTJ rather than ITP.

Anyway thanks for your input.

polikujm
05-10-2012, 05:44 PM
There's a difference between being Ne/Se and being a creative type. When you're an experimental thinker you don't finish things. I work as a soundtrack composer and don't develop 9 out of 10 projects because there's always something more I'm aiming for and find myself needing breaks from work and thinking, to approach that something better and fresher the next time. It's a true perfectionist's issue of quality over quantity, having the right mindset. (Or, to add, in my case as an Ni primary, already getting the big picture out of it and not wanting to complete a detailed art form.) Compare with Mozart, commonly typed as P but has tons and tons of completed works; he worked every day quite productively. I don't think an understanding of P and J is as fleshed out as one would easily assume with a speculation, especially with introverts where it often has no strict bearing. We just assume creative types are P because they're expressing something new and uncertain to themselves, but it's not the exact case.

However the reason I say Da Vinci as INTP is that he seems more analytical and meticulous than I would expect of an INTJ, rooted in laws and logic more than the idea and its possible application. INTJ and INTP thought simply moves backwards from one another. One reaches out to encompass logic in a selective fashion, while the other bases all their thought and understanding on it.

For further reference/help, a few INTJ characters often mistyped who come to mind are Dr. House, Brian that dog from Family Guy, and Carl Jung himself; those are Ni primaries who exhibit stereotypical creative P behaviors. When you look at all INTJs together, it's not a big difference in mental attitude, just how they're comfortable acting.

Elfboy
05-11-2012, 01:47 AM
I have commonly seen him typed as both on various threads throughout the internet. Which one is he?

da Vinci quotes:
“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.”
“Life is pretty simple: You do some stuff. Most fails. Some works. You do more of what works. If it works big, others quickly copy it. Then you do something else. The trick is the doing something else.”
“The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions.”
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.”
“I have been impressed with the urgency of doing. Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Being willing is not enough; we must do.”
“The knowledge of all things is possible”
“All sciences are vain and full of errors that are not born of Experience, the mother of all Knowledge.”
“Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.”
“Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!”

why are INTP and ISTP the only options? how about INFJ or INTJ?

RaptorWizard
05-11-2012, 01:53 AM
why are INTP and ISTP the only options? how about INFJ or INTJ?

How do you add extra options to the list?