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Zarathustra
11-08-2011, 09:18 PM
You may have noticed that I have a tendency to defend astrology. I have never claimed to be a believer in astrology, but I am willing to defend its pragmatic value and potential truth. Some express surprise that an INTJ would be willing to do so, but, in my opinion, I can't imagine a type -- other than maybe an INFJ -- who is more suited to finding value and potential truth in astrology. The NiJi dominant loop of both INJs can produce a willingness to perceive and judge phenomena from a highly subjective viewpoint, which is conducive to finding meaning and value in astrology, and an INTJ's Te and Se can actually gain a good deal of exercise and satisfaction when it comes to the technical details, as well as many other aspects, of astrology (in fact, in my opinion, it's highly likely that many, if not most, of the developers of astrology probably were INTJs -- remember, astrology and astronomy did not used to be separate fields, and the astrologers/astronomers of the past were rather impressive in their ability to observe and make predictions about the movement of planetary bodies in the sky, considering their level of technological development -- astrological observation, in fact, was a very significant step in our species' intellectual development -- on the road to where we are now, at one time we were monkeys, and at a later time we had developed into beings that were looking to the skies and predicting when and where various planetary bodies would appear, disappear, and return -- in this sense, the rise of astrology would seem to be a pretty momentous occasion in our history).

So, anyway, I've got a lot of ideas as to what I'm gunna do with this thread, but I figured I might as well start it off with an original post. Later on, I'll be willing to defend the philosophical tenets of astrology, help people figure out the major aspects of their natal, synastral, or composite charts, or answer questions such as why I defend astrology, why it is I don't ever say that I "believe in" astrology, or how a supposedly tough-minded INTJ could go about supporting something that only wishy washy F-types are supposed to be foolish enough to believe in, among other things.

So, with that being said, Zarathustra's Astrology Thread is officially open for business.

:wizfreak:

AphroditeGoneAwry
11-08-2011, 09:18 PM
lol

AgentF
11-08-2011, 09:20 PM
i ran my birth chart based on a recent conversation with one of you.

the results made my head hurt. :cry:

KDude
11-08-2011, 09:21 PM
I think it's type related. I think Ni doms are said to be interested in focal devices. Astrology just happens to be a (somewhat fleshed out) one. I bet you could have also picked a toy dinosaur or a coin from the reign of Emperor Constantine and gotten something from it.

Qlip
11-08-2011, 09:25 PM
I'm interested in what you're going to say here... I figured even as a kind of focus, Astrology would the most rigid of systems, and maybe less useful. But, I don't really know much about it.

Zarathustra
11-08-2011, 09:33 PM
i ran my birth chart based on a recent conversation with one of you.

the results made my head hurt. :cry:

Yeah, they can be pretty intense.

Every six months or so I go back to various versions of mine, and each time I'm blown away by what I read.

In a lot of ways, it reveals more impressively accurate and detailed stuff about me than do MBTI or enneagram profiles.

In fact, Jung would actually study his patients' natal charts if he ran into a block to which he couldn't find an answer.


I think it's type related. I think Ni doms are said to be interested in focal devices. Astrology just happens to be a (somewhat fleshed out) one. I bet you could have also picked a toy dinosaur or a coin from the reign of Emperor Constantine and gotten something from it.

Yeah, as I said in my OP, I think INJs are most suited to finding meaning, value, and potential truth in it, and I agree that one of the central aspects of it is that it's a useful focal point, but I don't really get your point about toy dinosaur or a coin from the reign of Emperor Constantine. The coin, at least, I'm sure I could focus on and have all kinds of interesting thoughts about, but the toy dinosaur...? And I don't think focusing on either one of them would help me discover much about myself.


I'm interested in what you're going to say here... I figured even as a kind of focus, Astrology would the most rigid of systems, and maybe less useful. But, I don't really know much about it.

I suspect this will become a wide-ranging discussion.

I'm not quite sure what you think would make it rigid.

Are you talking about the fact that each person's natal chart is based on the positions of the planetary bodies at the time of their birth?

PeaceBaby
11-08-2011, 09:33 PM
My head hurts from the sense of deja vu ... look forward to replaying history though! :D

AgentF
11-08-2011, 09:38 PM
2 questions:

1 - what does astrology have to say about interhuman compatibility?

2 - here is an excerpt from my birth chart "result". the intro, if you will. and it is just the kind of language that makes some of us giggle. what, the fuck, does it mean?

"You will not get the best out of your birth chart unless you become a go-between worthy of relaying the best. Concentrate first on construction and creativity, and use astrology to define the possibilities as you go along. In the fractal logic of astrology, each planet, sign and house is a self-similar unity complete with its own rewards."

i am open to learning more, but this makes as much sense as a screendoor on a battleship.





i'm bored. who wants to go on a picnic?

KDude
11-08-2011, 09:38 PM
Yeah, as I said in my OP, I think INJs are most suited to finding meaning, value, and potential truth in it, and I agree that one of the central aspects of it is that it's a useful focal point, but I don't really get your point about toy dinosaur or a coin from the reign of Emperor Constantine. The coin, at least, I'm sure I could focus on and have all kinds of interesting thoughts about, but the toy dinosaur...? And I don't think focusing on either one of them would help me discover much about myself.

lol don't mind the specifics. toy dinosaur is just some random thing that came off the top of my head. the point is that the symbol could be that vague to an outsider and only personal to you. like for some people who keep around certain items from their past or heirlooms. it brings some clarity to their thoughts. for a ni dom though, i think the personal significance might not be so obvious as an heirloom.

Zarathustra
11-08-2011, 09:40 PM
My head hurts from the sense of deja vu ... look forward to replaying history though! :D

Well, if that thread hadn't been mangled by one of our moderators, who then has refused to put it back despite all the participating members who have told her that it was absolutely ridiculous what she did, then I might not have wanted to do this one at all. Funnily enough, the botch job is the top link at the bottom of the page.

Peguy
11-08-2011, 09:40 PM
As a Ni-dom, I can say that while I don't actually believe in astrology, nevertheless I have found the subject rather fascinating in a way. Same goes with many other paranormal-related stuff.

Jaguar
11-08-2011, 09:43 PM
My head hurts from the sense of deja vu ... look forward to replaying history though! :D

Wait, we need Sim and Victor. Lol.

Nicodemus
11-08-2011, 09:46 PM
I can draw interesting insights from a dog taking a dump on the street. That, however, says much more about me than about the dog. Are you going to defend astrology or Zarathustra's Ni?

Zarathustra
11-08-2011, 09:51 PM
what does astrology have to say about interhuman compatibility?

There are three main kinds of astrological charts: natal, synastral, and composite.

Natal charts are for one person, based on the positions of the astrological bodies in the sky at the time and location of their birth.

Synastral charts are for two (and possibly more?) people, based on the interaction between each of their natal charts.

Composite charts are for two (and possibly more?) people, based on combining their birth data into one unique natal chart, as if, as a couple, they had their own unique, independent existence.


here is an excerpt from my birth chart "result". the intro, if you will. and it is just the kind of language that makes some of us giggle. what, the fuck, does it mean?

"You will not get the best out of your birth chart unless you become a go-between worthy of relaying the best. Concentrate first on construction and creativity, and use astrology to define the possibilities as you go along. In the fractal logic of astrology, each planet, sign and house is a self-similar unity complete with its own rewards."

i am open to learning more, but this makes as much sense as a screendoor on a battleship.


Frankly, I don't like the language there.

About four to five times they enter into gobbledegookland.

It's basically saying, "when you read this, you need to be open-minded to how it might be true".

That way, as opposed to, a priori, trying to find fault's in everything, you might try to consider how what it's saying is true.

Anything you get on the internet is just a spit-out from a computer, so you need to try to get the essence of the message, as it's not being tailored to you as an individual.

Saturned
11-08-2011, 09:51 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhX_nXTF0Ec

Sorry, I could not resist.

senza tema
11-08-2011, 09:56 PM
How did you come to take an interest in astrology?

Qlip
11-08-2011, 09:58 PM
I'm not quite sure what you think would make it rigid.

Are you talking about the fact that each person's natal chart is based on the positions of the planetary bodies at the time of their birth?

By rigid, I mean less room for interpretation. I just assumed it would be more rigid because of the intensely calculative nature of it. Anyway, open ears here.

jixmixfix
11-08-2011, 09:59 PM
astrology is B.S /end thread.

Halla74
11-08-2011, 10:00 PM
Awesome! :yesss:

Oh great and wise Zarathustra, please help me with the following.:

I know my birthdate, and approximate time of birth, but not the "official' hour/minute/second level of granularity.
I was checking out an astrology research service online about a year ago and it asked for my birth date and time.
Since I didn't know it exactly I did not order anything, because I didn't want to get shite results via bad input of birth time info.

QUESTIONS:
(1) That being said, what is my best option for getting a good astrology report with the information I have at this time?
(2) Is there any other info I need to get a good report?
(3) What resource (paid or free) do you think is best to get a thorough analysis of my astrological info.

Years ago a cousin of mine let me borrow one of Linda Goodman's books.
It was a great read.
I'm very interested to see what other info is out there with regard to astrology.

Thanks for your time and any information you are willing to share.

Regards,

:solidarity:

-Alex

AgentF
11-08-2011, 10:01 PM
Synastral charts are for two (and possibly more?) people, based on the interaction between each of their natal charts.


would you stop dating someone because your synastral chart told you to?

and is this why that couple inviting me into a threeple asked me for my place, DOB and panty size?

Zarathustra
11-08-2011, 10:01 PM
lol don't mind the specifics. toy dinosaur is just some random thing that came off the top of my head. the point is that the symbol could be that vague to an outsider and only personal to you. like for some people who keep around certain items from their past or heirlooms. it brings some clarity to their thoughts. for a ni dom though, i think the personal significance might not be so obvious as an heirloom.

Hmm...

Well, these symbols are pretty specific...

I mean, they're right there on your chart...

Not too random...

http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-bin/graphic/daisy24?dformat=2&date=1983/10/17&time=7.46&lat=33.44&long=117.52&adjust=7.00&lang=en&x=480&y=640

I haven't done combinatorial mathematics in a long time, so I just ran into a wall trying to do a back of the envelop calculation of all the possible permutations of astrological aspects there could possibly be, but, based on the wall I ran into, it would seem to run well into the billions.


As a Ni-dom, I can say that while I don't actually believe in astrology, nevertheless I have found the subject rather fascinating in a way.

That's basically the position I take.


Are you going to defend astrology or Zarathustra's Ni?

Are you asking me this question?


[stupid INTP "debunks" astrology {i.e., gives his opinion on something he knows literally nothing about}]

:)

Nicodemus
11-08-2011, 10:06 PM
Are you asking me this question?
Yes.

Zarathustra
11-08-2011, 10:07 PM
How did you come to take an interest in astrology?

From the previous thread PeaceBaby and Jag have made reference to:


I used to be a major skeptic about astrology. I thought it was mere delusional child's play. Of course, when I felt this way, I really didn't know much about astrology or how it supposedly works.

I continued with this skepticism until one day just a little over a year ago when something crazy happened to me.

I was returning a pair of jeans that I'd bought at a store three months before.

When I'd originally bought the jeans, I was helped by a tall, very attractive, sandy blond Lebanese girl who'd grown up in Switzerland. I was trying on some jeans in the dressing room, and she and I were talking, when all of a sudden she says to me, "You're a Libra."

I'm standing there in the dressing room, putting on a pair of jeans, and just freeze.

I was born October 17th.

I stopped for a moment, thinking to myself, and finally said, "How did you know that?"

She said, Libras are always very picky in their aesthetic tastes...

I paused again.

"Seriously? You really just guessed I was a Libra based on that?"

She said, "I've studied a lot of astrology. And I see different people all day long. I've gotten pretty good at typing them."

Needless to say, I was rather impressed.

Still, there was a 1/12 chance she would guess it right, so I felt comfortable writing it off as chance.

But then, fast forward three months to the present time (March 2009):

I'm returning the same pair of jeans to the same store.

Unfortunately, the same attendant was not working at the time, but another attractive foreign female attendant (Israeli, this one) came up to me and asked me what I was looking for. I told her I was looking to return the jeans, and potentially buy something else. She and I start chatting, she brings me some shirts and jeans, and right as I'm putting on another pair, she stops and says to me, "You're a Libra."

No fucking joke.

For some reason, two different girls, same store, both just happen to tell an astrology skeptic that he's a Libra, when he's changing in the exact same dressing room.

If you take this as mere random chance: that's a 1/144 chance that they both get it right.

I've never had anyone else my entire life even venture a guess as to what my sun sign is.

But for some reason, the only two times I ever come into the same store, these two girls happen to ask, and they just happen to be right.

It was odd.

After this, I opened my mind a bit more to astrology.

Spurgeon
11-08-2011, 10:07 PM
Yeah, it doesn't surprise me in the least that INTJs would be interested in (while not necessarily "believing" in) astrology.

Introverted Intuition is all about the esoteric, the obscure, the mysterious, the uncanny, and the coincidental synchronistic.

Zarathustra
11-08-2011, 10:15 PM
By rigid, I mean less room for interpretation. I just assumed it would be more rigid because of the intensely calculative nature of it. Anyway, open ears here.

There's that Te. :)

Yeah, honestly, that's what ends up being so cool about it -- it really is highly calculative.

The more charts you look at, the more you realize, "holy shit, people's charts are completely different from one another."

I've looked at probably 15-20 different charts, and not one has been like another.

Zarathustra
11-08-2011, 10:16 PM
Introverted Intuition is all about... the coincidental.

Or the synchronistic.

Spurgeon
11-08-2011, 10:18 PM
Or the synchronistic.

Right. That's the word I was searching for.

Nicodemus
11-08-2011, 10:24 PM
For some reason, two different girls, same store, both just happen to tell an astrology skeptic that he's a Libra, when he's changing in the exact same dressing room.
Same store? The reason may be a business trick. Libras are produced around Christmas and New Year, so they may be among the most common zodiac signs.

Saturned
11-08-2011, 10:26 PM
Ok. Do my chart. And I will see how "accurate" it is.

Spurgeon
11-08-2011, 10:29 PM
http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-bin/graphic/daisy24?dformat=2&date=1983/10/17&time=7.46&lat=33.44&long=117.52&adjust=7.00&lang=en&x=480&y=640



Wow! That chart is a thing of beauty! :)

Zarathustra
11-08-2011, 10:29 PM
I know my birthdate, and approximate time of birth, but not the "official' hour/minute/second level of granularity.
I was checking out an astrology research service online about a year ago and it asked for my birth date and time.
Since I didn't know it exactly I did not order anything, because I didn't want to get shite results via bad input of birth time info.


How approximately do you know your time of birth?

There are many facets to astrology, and there is one primarily (the houses) that will change most because of a change of time.

Many of the other facets, however, will not change to significantly based on a change of an hour or three.



QUESTIONS:
(1) That being said, what is my best option for getting a good astrology report with the information I have at this time?


You could either input the approximate time, or you could input it with no time.

If you're approximate time is relatively close (like, within an hour), I'd go with that.

If you have any further questions on this, feel free to ask (I have some more I could say).



(2) Is there any other info I need to get a good report?


Your birth location.



(3) What resource (paid or free) do you think is best to get a thorough analysis of my astrological info.


http://astro.cafeastrology.com/

For their free natal chart, you need to input birth time, though.

If you have a decent approximation, I would just put it in (and be more wary of the house stuff).

If you want help interpreting it, I can make it all much more understandable.

Just let me know.

We could do it via pm, or right here in this thread.

Whichever you prefer.



Years ago a cousin of mine let me borrow one of Linda Goodman's books.
It was a great read.
I'm very interested to see what other info is out there with regard to astrology.


The book where I found a surprisingly strong philosophical defense of astrology was 'Cosmos and Psyche (http://www.amazon.com/Cosmos-Psyche-Intimations-World-View/dp/0670032921)'.

The book's website is here (LINK) (http://www.cosmosandpsyche.com/).

There used to be an amazing hour-long, streaming interview with the author here (LINK (http://www.cosmosandpsyche.com/pages/interviews/)), but the CBC has taken it down from their site, so you have to download it now in RealPlayer. If you're at all interested, I highly recommend checking it out. The guy is extremely intelligent (A.B. cum laude from Harvard, where he studied Western intellectual and cultural history and depth psychology) and knowledgeable; his previous book 'Passion of the Western Mind (http://www.amazon.com/Passion-Western-Mind-Understanding-Shaped/dp/0345368096)' is an excellent survey of the history of Western intellectual thought; I'm almost certain he's an INFJ.



Thanks for your time and any information you are willing to share.

:solidarity:


No problem.

Happy to share.

:solidarity:

Zarathustra
11-08-2011, 10:31 PM
Ok. Do my chart. And I will see how "accurate" it is.

I'd need your birth date, time, and location.

You can rep or pm it to me, if you don't feel like sharing in the thread.

:)

HelenOfTroy
11-08-2011, 10:51 PM
I have a beautifully hand drawn birth chart made around the time i was born.
(Yes ancient Egyptions were doing them erm)
It has lots of gold and, originally, vibrant colour. It is very pretty.
I do like astrology, i find it a romantic notion.

chana
11-08-2011, 10:59 PM
part of me is skeptical about astrology but then a much bigger part of me has done the birth chart of every guy i've had a crush on since i was 12. i actually redid my chart by hand the other day because i was bored.

http://alabe.com/cgi-bin/chart/pics/2455874104616.gif

Zarathustra
11-09-2011, 12:04 AM
Are you going to defend astrology or Zarathustra's Ni?
Are you asking me this question?Yes.

Well, considering I will be defending my understanding of astrology, it would seem that, because my Ni helped develop that understanding, the two would be too closely related to answer your question as an either/or.


By rigid, I mean less room for interpretation. I just assumed it would be more rigid because of the intensely calculative nature of it. Anyway, open ears here.

Well, that's the interesting thing: the more I've studied it, the more I've realized it's less open for interpretation than I thought.

The calculative nature of it (i.e., the locations of the planetary bodies at the time of your birth, how they aspect one another, etc.) is very rigid.

The interpretive nature (i.e., what do these various planets aspecting each other mean?) is certainly less rigid, but even it has its own rigidity.

Each planetary body (sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, saturn, uranus, neptune, pluto, midheaven, et al) is its own archetype.

And the various aspects (conjunction, opposition, trine, square, sextile, et al) each have their own meaning.

So there are somewhat rigid limits to the interpretive aspect as well.

And, since the interpretive aspect follows directly from the completely rigid calculative aspect, well, yes, I guess you are right, there is a certain rigidity to it.

There is an openness, though, too, to the interpretive part.


would you stop dating someone because your synastral chart told you to?

Only if what the chart told me rang true to me in the first place, and seemed like something that should cause me to stop dating the person.


and is this why that couple inviting me into a threeple asked me for my place, DOB and panty size?

:shock:


Right. That's the word I was searching for.

:)


Same store? The reason may be a business trick. Libras are produced around Christmas and New Year, so they may be among the most common zodiac signs.

I'm not sure I follow...

Libras are mostly in October...

Not sure if I'm missing a joke here or something...

I'm not quite sure how it could be a business trick...

As I explained in the other thread, I had my wallet with me in the changing area...


Wow! That chart is a thing of beauty! :)

Yeah, I do find them to be rather beautiful.

Some more than others, too.

It's interesting.

Zarathustra
11-09-2011, 12:28 AM
Ok. Do my chart. And I will see how "accurate" it is.

http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-bin/graphic/daisy24?dformat=2&date=1978/3/5&time=0.7&lat=34.44&long=92.17&adjust=6.00&lang=en&x=480&y=640


Whoa...

Pretty chart...

Looks like diamonds...

*shoves baby SFP back in box*

Rasofy
11-09-2011, 01:39 AM
or how a supposedly tough-minded INTJ could go about supporting something that only wishy washy F-types are supposed to be foolish enough to believe in, among other things.
http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/10/11022/11286844.jpg


Isn't it just about cold reading? What did I miss?

Zarathustra
11-09-2011, 01:55 AM
Isn't it just about cold reading?

That would be one interpretation.

There are others.

Zarathustra
11-09-2011, 01:57 AM
So, Saturned, here are the aspects from your natal chart:



Aspects

The following table shows the planetary aspects in your natal chart. Short interpretations are found below.

Planet Aspect Planet Orb/Value
Sun Conjunction Mercury 5.32 225
Sun Trine Uranus 2.00 97
Sun Square Neptune 3.57 -41
Sun Opposition Midheaven 3.42 -118
Moon Sextile Mercury 3.02 41
Moon Sextile Venus 1.36 174
Moon Opposition Mars 0.33 -99
Mercury Conjunction Venus 4.38 293
Mercury Trine Mars 2.29 34
Mercury Trine Uranus 3.32 43
Mercury Square Neptune 1.36 -51
Venus Trine Mars 2.09 62
Venus Square Jupiter 1.52 -75
Venus Trine Ascendant 5.08 33
Mars Trine Uranus 6.01 11
Mars Trine Ascendant 7.18 3
Jupiter Sextile Saturn 0.35 75
Jupiter Opposition Neptune 8.06 -10
Saturn Trine Neptune 7.31 3
Saturn Square Ascendant 3.51 -10
Neptune Sextile Pluto 2.06 29


I've got to go to yoga, but I'll go through the rest when I get back.

Zarathustra
11-09-2011, 01:58 AM
Ah, fuck it, here's the most important one:


293 Conjunction Mercury - Venus

She looks on the bright side of life: she is gay, agreeable, optimistic, sociable. She likes to speak and write, and does both with charm and artistry. Her intellectual pleasures are influenced by her feelings. She is amorous and sensual. She likes beauty, the Arts but also travelling.

Seems rather accurate, if you ask me...

I'll find some more detailed descriptions and post them when I get back.

I'll post your next few most important aspects as well.

Rasofy
11-09-2011, 01:59 AM
That would be one interpretation.

There are others.
You are talking like an INTP! :dont:

Rasofy
11-09-2011, 02:02 AM
I will be reading your posts here, who knows, maybe I can learn something new.

Mole
11-09-2011, 02:56 AM
Wait, we need Sim and Victor. Lol.

I was talking to Sim the other day and he said I shouldn't have put Jaguar on Ignore. Talk to him as an equal, said Sim, the same way you talk to me.

Oo! Oo! I dunno, I said.

Just talk to him nicely about astrology, said Sim.

Astrology! Astrology!, I said. Yes, astrology, said Sim, just do your best.

Well, astrology is the ur-religion. Astrology is the mother of all religions. All religions are based on astrology. And by showing respect for astrology, we are showing respect for our mother.

In fact, I went on to say, to understand religion, it is necessary to understand astrology first.

What a wonderful slogan, said Sim, "Astrology First".

And you see, said Sim, it's not that hard, is it Victor?

Jaguar
11-09-2011, 03:29 AM
Just talk to him nicely about astrology, said Sim.
Astrology! Astrology!, I said. Yes, astrology, said Sim, just do your best.


Sim doesn't even talk like that, Victor. Man, you're a character. Lol.

Mole
11-09-2011, 03:35 AM
Sim doesn't even talk like that, Victor. Man, you're a character. Lol.

I am miffed you would describe me as a character, Jaguar. And anyway, Sim has taken me as a role model and he is even starting to talk like me.

I took his advice and spoke to you as an equal, but I can't help feeling I have made a mistake. But I don't blame you, I blame Sim.

Jaguar
11-09-2011, 03:37 AM
I am miffed you would describe me as a character, Jaguar. And anyway, Sim has taken me as a role model and he is even starting to talk like me.

I took his advice and spoke to you as an equal, but I can't help feeling I have made a mistake. But I don't blame you, I blame Sim.

Victor, I could say you smell like coffee and you'd find a way to be "miffed."

senza tema
11-09-2011, 03:59 AM
My family loves astrology and had my birth chart done when I was a baby. After they got a hold of the results, they promptly put the horoscope away and refused to tell me a word about it, which makes me believe that I am, in fact, the Second Coming.

What do you think? Should I be thinking about rapturing away God's elect any time soon? *

http://i.imgur.com/CU4P7.png

http://i.imgur.com/baowv.png

http://i.imgur.com/G7tAb.png

---
* I really hope I don't go to hell for this.

Zarathustra
11-09-2011, 04:16 AM
What do you think?
http://i.imgur.com/CU4P7.png

http://i.imgur.com/baowv.png

http://i.imgur.com/G7tAb.png


You do have a very positive birth chart.

The second most positive I've seen.

I noticed it just by looking at the picture (birth/natal wheel, or something like that).

You've got this large system of trines and conjunctions (the blue lines), which are the two most positive aspects.

You have Mars conjunct Jupiter, which is in trine with Venus conjunct Pluto.

Oh, and look, I didn't even look at your specific aspect values, but Mars conjunct Jupiter is your most positive one.

In fact, it might be the most positive aspect I've seen of any chart I've looked at (which doesn't surprise me).

These are two major planets, and if you understand their archetypes, and what it means to have them in conjunction...

Two planets in conjunction (the most positive aspect in astrology) means those two planets work, well, in conjunction, with one another...

A conjunction exists when, at the moment of your birth, two planets were right next to each other in the sky.

You can imagine why this would seem rather significant to our ancient ancestors.

Mars is an archetype of energy and vitality; Jupiter is an archetype of expansivesness and success (and a little immaturity -- like mythical Zeus).

Here's what happens when you put the two together in a conjunction:



Mars conjunct Jupiter

Harmonious Mars/Jupiter aspects are a marker of worldly comfort and financial success. The conjunction indicates a person who is energetic, resourceful, frank, outspoken, pioneering, and adventurous. There is often executive ability and an entrepreneurial attitude toward business ventures. You stand up for your beliefs and would be a formidable opponent in any kind of battle or competition. The energy of Mars combines with the expansiveness of Jupiter to increase your enthusiasm, liveliness, and optimism. You probably enjoy travel, flying, the outdoors, competitive sports, vigorous exercise, and other Jupiter-ruled pursuits. Often there is an interest in philosophical, legal, religious, scientific, or political matters.

You enjoy learning about something and then spreading the word to others. This can lead to success in broadcasting, teaching, the travel industry, promoting, propaganda, publicity, advertising, or Internet related businesses. You like to display your talent before others. There may also be talent for Mars-ruled occupations that require courage, energy and risk-taking (e.g., police, military, etc.), or that involve the use of fire, explosives, weapons, or instruments that penetrate the body (e.g., surgery, acupuncture, etc.). If this conjunction forms stressful aspects, there may be problems with impulsive or addictive behavior.

Alternate, short interpretations: You have a positive, "can-do" attitude and tackle life's challenges with relish. You are self-confident and have a strong will to succeed, to see how much you can do and how far you can go. No matter what you accomplish, you do not rest on your laurels. You want to keep on going, to do even bigger things. You are forward-looking, enterprising, and enthusiastic about new projects. You are not happy in situations that do not offer you challenges and the potential for growth and expansion in the future - no matter how secure or satisfactory they may be in other respects. You enjoy competition, but you compete mostly with yourself, to see how much of your vision and potential you can really achieve. You make a good leader, inspiring courage and confidence in others. You usually enjoy good health and high vitality.


If you were to give me your actual birth info or send me your profile, I could paste the actual description from your profile; this is a more generic one from the same website.

Sometimes the descriptions in the actual profiles have a quick summary at the end, that sums everything up nicely.

(I don't want to be invasive, though, if you don't want me to have that info.)

Zarathustra
11-09-2011, 04:28 AM
Oh, you know what, I just noticed a little more from your chart.

So that Mars conjunct Jupiter is not only in trine (the second most positive aspect) with Venus conjunct Pluto.

It's also square (the second most negative aspect) with a large system: Saturn conjunct Midheaven conjunct Mercury.

That yields a number of negative (i.e., challenging) aspects in your profile, but they are still rather small.

Your more negative aspects come from Sun opposition Moon, and Uranus opposition Moon.

I'll get back to your (and Saturned's) chart in a little while.

mmhmm
11-09-2011, 05:38 AM
omg i ran so many astrology reports on jock and i.
compatibility, soul mates, and all sorts of other creepy
stuff. so much fun to read! i want to go buy more now.

http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-bin/graphic/two2?dformat=2&date=1980/11/7&lat=13.45&long=-100.31&adjust=-7.00&date2=1986/10/7&time2=4.44&lang=en


mmhmm Aspect jock Orb/Value
Sun Conjunction Venus 4.11 186
Sun Trine Jupiter 0.17 132
Moon Conjunction Mercury 2.46 231
Moon Conjunction Pluto 1.09 118
Mercury Conjunction Mercury 1.53 87
Mercury Conjunction Pluto 0.16 120
Venus Conjunction Sun 4.26 178
Mars Conjunction Uranus 0.12 121
Mars Square Ascendant 1.53 -100
Jupiter Sextile Moon 0.53 94
Jupiter Trine Mars 2.57 55
Jupiter Square Neptune 1.07 -87
Saturn Sextile Saturn 0.24 62
Saturn Square Neptune 2.20 -61
Neptune Conjunction Uranus 2.02 75
1459 -248 1211

Critical Hit
11-09-2011, 12:02 PM
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7007/chartbg.gif

Give it to me straight doc. What is wrong with me?

Spaceskye
11-09-2011, 04:47 PM
All this astrology makes me curious, care to read mine :D?

http://alabe.com/cgi-bin/chart/pics/2455875357889.gif

Another..

http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-bin/graphic/daisy24?dformat=2&date=1998/8/20&time=12.0&lat=38.50&long=104.49&adjust=6.00&lang=en&x=480&y=640&nohouses=true

Saturned
11-09-2011, 05:44 PM
http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-bin/graphic/daisy24?dformat=2&date=1978/3/5&time=0.7&lat=34.44&long=92.17&adjust=6.00&lang=en&x=480&y=640


Whoa...

Pretty chart...

Looks like diamonds...

*shoves baby SFP back in box*

It IS pretty :D


So, Saturned, here are the aspects from your natal chart:



I've got to go to yoga, but I'll go through the rest when I get back.


Ah, fuck it, here's the most important one:



Seems rather accurate, if you ask me...

I'll find some more detailed descriptions and post them when I get back.

I'll post your next few most important aspects as well.

Ok, but what do the other ones say? And why is this one the most important?

Saturned
11-09-2011, 05:45 PM
P.S. I would think that the Saturn aspects would be the most important.

:cheese:

Vasilisa
11-16-2011, 10:29 PM
Here is a look at mine for now.
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6982

And here is all (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32431&p=1224063&viewfull=1#post1224063) that (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36805&p=1382878&viewfull=1#post1382878) good stuff (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37132&p=1394391#post1394391).
http://i.imgur.com/K1nXu.png

Evan
11-16-2011, 11:01 PM
So Zara, you're saying you believe in astrology, and it's because of something that had a 1/144 chance of happening?

Um, so I have a question -- why would star movements affect brain development? More importantly, even if brain development were magically affected, why would high-level personality traits conform so specifically to archetypes based on arbitrary time periods (months)?

Why has no one mentioned the Forer Effect?

I really just don't see any value to the system whatsoever. Personality types are not chosen based on personality data, so they are essentially randomly assigned. And now with random type assignments, we assign specific personality characteristics that are no more likely than chance to be descriptively valid. How could it be anything but hand-waving and unscientific vagueness?

Zarathustra
11-16-2011, 11:51 PM
So Zara, you're saying you believe in astrology, and it's because of something that had a 1/144 chance of happening?

No, if you read closely, you'd see that I repeatedly said that I don't necessarily believe in astrology (in the sense of it being representationally/correspondentially true). Also, because of the 1/144 chance event, I didn't start believing in astrology, or even finding value in it (the latter of which, I now do): it simply prodded me to look into it more.

Once I looked into it, I read a very intelligent book that I'd already been given by my ex-girlfriend's best friend (an INFP).

I found the author to be highly intelligent, and his argument to be internally consistent.

I think I already mentioned him before: his name is Richard Tarnas.

I'm pretty sure he's an INFJ, much like yourself.

This is him:

http://www.scottlondon.com/images/rick_tarnas.jpg

And these are his books:

http://www.wasiwaska.org/images/board/RichardTarnas1.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Passion-Western-Mind-Understanding-Shaped/dp/0345368096) http://www.wasiwaska.org/images/board/RichardTarnas2.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/Cosmos-Psyche-Intimations-World-View/dp/0452288592/ref=pd_sim_b_1)

Praise for 'The Passion of the Western Mind':

"The most lucid and concise presentation I have read of the grand lines of what every student should know about the history of Western thought." - Joseph Campbell

"No other such overview provides, in equal compass, as clear and cogent a survey. Its scholarship is impeccable....For its length it is the best intellectual history of the West I have ever seen." - Huston Smith


Um, so I have a question -- why would star movements affect brain development?

They don't.

That's not the idea.

You're working from a materialist paradigm.

From that paradigm, astrology makes no sense.

The point is that that paradigm is not the only one, and that, from others, it can make sense.

Materialism is the dominant paradigm of our age, but it is not the only paradigm we've had in our history.

Astrology only makes sense (in the sense that it is representationally/correspondentially true) under the assumption/paradigm/cosmological view that we do not live in a (solely) material universe.

It is internally consistent/coherent, though, and, regardless of whether or not it's representationally/correspondentially true, it can prove pragmatically true/valuable as a method of self-reflection/self-inquiry/self-analysis.


More importantly, even if brain development were magically affected, why would high-level personality traits conform so specifically to archetypes based on arbitrary time periods (months)?

Well, I think I've partially answered this question with the above: that working from a materialist paradigm, astrology will never make sense.

As for the (newer) part about arbitrary time periods (i.e., "months"): it's not based off arbitrary time periods, it's based off how the planetary bodies (sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, saturn, uranus, neptune, pluto, et al), the signs (capricorn, aquarius, pisces, aries, taurus, gemini, cancer, leo, virgo, scorpio, sagitarrius), and the houses (1-12) are aligned at the moment and location of your birth.


Why has no one mentioned the Forer Effect?

I did actually.

Did you read my first post?

This is the second thing you've said now that makes it seem like you didn't.

[Sorry, I thought I did write about the Forer effect in my OP. I certainly thought about it. Give me a sec to compose a response.]

I mean, the Forer Effect is rather obvious, no? Obviously, it could all just be the Forer effect...

But, if you go into it simply assuming that it's wrong, then you're probably gunna find that it's wrong, no?

Similarly, if you go into it simply assuming that it's right, then you're probably gunna find that it's right, right?

Well, in light of this, the only way to study the matter fairly would seem to be to go into it with an open mind, correct?

That is the method I condone: don't go into studying it thinking of it being representationally/correspondentially true.

But do go into it knowing the strongest argument in favor of its potential representational/correspondential truth.

Then, go into it with an open mind, a truly open mind, and see whether you get anything out of it.

If you don't, then who cares. It's free, easy, and doesn't take much time.

On the other hand, maybe you do get something out of it.

You can't know until you try.


I really just don't see any value to the system whatsoever. Personality types are not chosen based on personality data, so they are essentially randomly assigned. And now with random type assignments, we assign specific personality characteristics that are no more likely than chance to be descriptively valid.

As I'm sure you've gathered by now, and as is perfectly fair, considering all your writing came from the same response, the way you're looking at things is obviously through a materialist paradigm, which is why you would state that it is all "no more likely than chance". If you start from a different paradigm, it can all make perfect sense. My approach is not to have a paradigm (although, that's really a paradigm in and of itself). As such, I look foremost to see whether there's any value (in the sense of pragmatic truth) to astrology. I have found that, whether or not it is representationally/correspondentially true, there is pragmatic value to it, as has every person with whom I've gone over their natal chart.

As our first hard skeptic to pose a thoughtful question: would you like to give it a try?

<Saturned and senza_tema: I'm sorry, I know I've been holding off on you two, I'll try to get to both of you tonight.>


How could it be[...] anything but hand-waving and unscientific vagueness?

It's not scientific, and that is largely the point.

Not all kinds of knowledge are scientific.

The real question is not "how could it be...?", but "why must it not be...?".

Mole
11-17-2011, 02:07 AM
I repeatedly said that I don't necessarily believe in astrology.

There is no need to believe in astrology for it to work, for astrology is a form of group hypnosis.

And under group hypnosis our critical mind goes to sleep and we accept any suggestion made to us.

Zarathustra
11-17-2011, 02:59 AM
Ok, but what do the other ones say?

I'm gunna compile your full list of aspects right now.


And why is this one the most important?

The program that I'm using has an algorithm whereby it gives a numerical value for each aspect.

The meaning of this numerical value is essentially the "prominence" of that particular aspect in your chart.

The algorithm takes into account a number of factors: the importance of an aspect between the two planets, what kind of an aspect it is, and the size of the orb. It also might take into account what signs each planet finds itself under (each planet "belongs" to a particular sign), and/or whether you're a male or a female, but I'm not quite sure about that yet (will try to find out).

As such, when I look at any chart, for the most part, the things that stick out most to me are what end up being given higher values from this program. It's important to note, though, that you shouldn't read too much into these values -- they are relatively accurate, within the internal rules of astrology, but it's not like an aspect with a 120 value is necessarily gunna be that much more important than an aspect with a 110 value. And, on a different but related note, often times it's the lower-value aspects (circa the 30s) that offer some accurate, insightful piece of information about somebody (kinda the "cherry on top", if you know what I mean).


P.S. I would think that the Saturn aspects would be the most important. :cheese:

We will see!

Evan
11-17-2011, 03:07 AM
No, if you read closely, you'd see that I repeatedly said that I don't necessarily believe in astrology (in the sense of it being representationally/correspondentially true). Also, because of the 1/144 chance event, I didn't start believing in astrology, or even finding value in it (the latter of which, I now do): it simply prodded me to look into it more.

Yeah, I only skimmed the thread; my bad.


Once I looked into it, I read a very intelligent book that I'd already been given by my ex-girlfriend's best friend (an INFP).

I found the author to be highly intelligent, and his argument to be internally consistent.

I think I already mentioned him before: his name is Richard Tarnas.

I'm pretty sure he's an INFJ, much like yourself.

I still think he's wrong :)


They don't.

That's not the idea.

You're working from a materialist paradigm.

From that paradigm, astrology makes no sense.

The point is that that paradigm is not the only one, and that, from others, it can make sense.

Materialism is the dominant paradigm of our age, but it is not the only paradigm we've had in our history.

Astrology only makes sense (in the sense that it is representationally/correspondentially true) under the assumption/paradigm/cosmological view that we do not live in a (solely) material universe.

I can see that I guess. I must admit that I have a really hard time viewing anything outside of a materialistic framework...

The framework in which astrology would make sense would have to account for correlations between star movement and personality -- as in, it would have to postulate a causal link -- maybe a common cause? I'd like to hear an account like this that wouldn't sound really hand-wavey or convoluted.



Well, I think I've partially answered this question with the above: that working from a materialist paradigm, astrology will never make sense.

As for the (newer) part about arbitrary time periods (i.e., "months"): it's not based off arbitrary time periods, it's based off how the planetary bodies (sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, saturn, uranus, neptune, pluto, et al), the signs (capricorn, aquarius, pisces, aries, taurus, gemini, cancer, leo, virgo, scorpio, sagitarrius), and the houses (1-12) are aligned at the moment and location of your birth.

I don't really know much about astrology, but why would the difference between January 19th and 20th have more effects than the difference between December 22nd and January 19th?

Since all these planetary bodies move in different orbits, why is the pattern expressed in terms of earth months or years?


As I'm sure you've gathered by now, and as is perfectly fair, considering all your writing came from the same response, the way you're looking at things is obviously through a materialist paradigm, which is why you would state that it is all "no more likely than chance". If you start from a different paradigm, it can all make perfect sense. My approach is not to have a paradigm (although, that's really a paradigm in and of itself). As such, I look foremost to see whether there's any value (in the sense of pragmatic truth) to astrology. I have found that, whether or not it is representationally/correspondentially true, there is pragmatic value to it, as has every person with whom I've gone over their natal chart.

As our first hard skeptic to pose a thoughtful question: would you like to give it a try?

Sure, why not?


It's not scientific, and that is largely the point.

Not all kinds of knowledge are scientific.

The real question is not "how could it be...?", but "why must it not be...?".

I guess I just meant it doesn't seem consistent with current scientific theory.

But I do think knowledge (whatever that really means) should be scientific, as in, each theoretical account of a phenomenon should be compared to other possible accounts based on consistency with data and description length. So in order to raise my belief in astrology, I'd have to see a lot of data that fits better with astrology than determinism since the description length of astrology is really high (as in, you have to use more words to explain astrology than to explain materialistic determinism).

Zarathustra
11-17-2011, 04:13 AM
Yeah, I only skimmed the thread; my bad.

It happens.


I still think he's wrong :)

You read his book?


I can see that I guess. I must admit that I have a really hard time viewing anything outside of a materialistic framework...

I have noticed.


The framework in which astrology would make sense would have to account for correlations between star movement and personality -- as in, it would have to postulate a causal link -- maybe a common cause?

The way Tarnas describes it is that it is not actually causal, but it is correlational.

He actually leans heavily on Jung's idea of synchronicity.

(As you might imagine, he's very well-versed in Jung.)

The way he describes it is that it's like a clock.

The clock doesn't determine time, it merely points to it.

Same goes for astrology: it doesn't determine what is happening, it merely corresponds to what's happening.

He actually spells this all out very clearly in his interview from 2006 with the CBC that can be found on his website:
http://www.cosmosandpsyche.com/pages/interviews/


I'd like to hear an account like this that wouldn't sound really hand-wavey or convoluted.

I thought you said you read his book?

It's very clearly spelled out in the first few chapters.

In fact, I might even be able to find them on his website (LINK (http://www.cosmosandpsyche.com/))...

[will post if I find them]


I don't really know much about astrology, but why would the difference between January 19th and 20th have more effects than the difference between December 22nd and January 19th?

The location of the planets, relative to one another and relative to the astrological signs will have changed more between December 22nd and January 19th than between January 19th and 20th. Furthermore, birth time and location are also necessary, to determine the houses (of which there are 12), and thus how the planets and signs align with the houses.

I'm not 100% sure, but it sounds like you're getting tripped up by the sun sign.

That is the most common part of astrology that people are aware of: "What's your sign?"

But the sun sign is just one part of astrology, and it really isn't nearly as big a part as most people think it is.

The sun sign is like the canvas on which all the other parts of astrology are painted.

Each different stroke (as well as the canvas), combine to create a person's full astrological profile.

Many different pictures can be drawn on the same kind of canvas, and there are 12 different kinds of canvases.

(Really, there are even more, cuz, in my opinion, if you fall on the cusp of two signs, your sun sign will really be a blend of the two).


Sure, why not?

I'll need your birth date, time, and location.

If you don't want to put it in here, just rep or pm it to me.


I guess I just meant it doesn't seem consistent with current scientific theory.

It most certainly is not.

Nor is it trying to be.

And remember, as Thomas Kuhn pointed out, scientific paradigms change.


But I do think knowledge (whatever that really means) should be scientific, as in, each theoretical account of a phenomenon should be compared to other possible accounts based on consistency with data and description length.

There's a lot here to peel apart...

First off, I don't know if your account of what is scientific is indeed reflective of what makes something scientific (in the common sense).

I think the following exchange between me and Victor might be helpful in this regard:



Probably the most important thing about truth is that we are mistaken a lot of the time. Our senses deceive us. Our thoughts deceive us. Society deceives us. So we need a way to confirm or disconfirm something we perceive as true. And it is the scientific method that enable us to winnow the truth from fable, from illlusion, from delusion, from wish fulfullment, from ideology, from social imperatives, and even disinformation.

For two hundred thousand years, without the scientific method, we believed wrongly, that the Sun went round the Earth, but just recently the scientific method told us, counter-intuitively, that the Earth goes round the Sun. Who would have guessed?

And so many things the scientific method tells us are those things we could not have guessed.

Yet for two hundred thousand years we have been guessing at the truth, and now we can guess and test our guesses against evidence and reason.


And what of the things that the scientific method cannot tell us?


Seriously.


The scientific method is a way of testing guesses to see if they are false. It's called falsifiability.

We have been able to falsify the Exodus and the Mormon history of North and Cental America, because both made claims that could be falsified by archeology.

However claims that can't be falsified, such as the existence of a benevolent God, can't be tested by the scientific method.


Yes, I know this.

My question was: what of all the things that are not falsifiable?


Well, my guess is that unfalsifiable claims are ones that do not allow evidence to be gathered.

String Theory does not allow evidence to be gathered, and so is unfalsifiable, even though String Theory elegantly unites Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity.

Also experiences that are unrepeatable also seem to me to be unfalsifiable. For to gather evidence, everyone needs to be able to gather the same evidence. For instance to gather evidence of the size and charge of the electron, all of us need to gather the same evidence and apply the same reason to the evidence. So personal annecdotal experiences, not available to everyone, seem to me to be unfalsifiable.


Yes, those are both examples (one specific, one general) of things that would seem to fall into the realm of unfalsifiability. I think there are many more, too. You mentioned the one about whether there is a benevolent God. The benevolence wouldn't seem to necessarily be required, but all kinds of cosmological questions would seem to fall outside the realm of falsifiability.

Still, though (and I say this with all respect, as I appreciate that you're finally seeming to engage with me openly and honestly): you have not answered my question. While the scientific method would seem to be able to help us better understand the issues that are falsifiable, what about the ones that are not?

I ask because my impression has been that you do not regard these questions with much respect or importance.

And this has always been an issue for me with your perspective on things.

Frankly, though, I do kind of like your version, as it does seem to open itself up to narratives that would find themselves outside the realm of falsifiability, and thus, our current dominant understanding of what it means to be "scientific". In that sense, your construction would actually seem to be more scientific, in the sense that word was originally intended to mean (i.e., scientia, or knowledge).


So in order to raise my belief in astrology, I'd have to see a lot of data that fits better with astrology than determinism...

Well, first off, not all materialism need necessarily be deterministic.

And, secondly, determinism and astrology aren't necessarily incompatible.

Materialistic determinism and astrology are incompatible, but that's because of the materialistic part, not the deterministic part.


...since the description length of astrology is really high (as in, you have to use more words to explain astrology than to explain materialistic determinism).

This last part is interesting...

See, to our modern minds, I would agree, more words would have to be used to explain astrology than materialistic determinism.

But that is more a reflection of our modern cosmological view, than of the ideas of astrology and materialistic determinism themselves.

If you were to have to explain materialistic determinism to a culture where astrology were the dominant paradigm, you'd probably have to spend more words explaining materialistic determinism to them.

And, lastly, I think it's relevant to note that the primary way to gather data about astrology is to check out as many astrological charts as possible.

Just a thought.

Zarathustra
11-17-2011, 05:04 AM
The Natal Chart


http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-bin/graphic/daisy24?dformat=2&date=1978/3/5&time=0.7&lat=34.44&long=92.17&adjust=6.00&lang=en&x=480&y=640





The Aspects



Mercury Conjunction Venus 4.38 293

She looks on the bright side of life: she is gay, agreeable, optimistic, sociable. She likes to speak and write, and does both with charm and artistry. Her intellectual pleasures are influenced by her feelings. She is amorous and sensual. She likes beauty, the Arts but also travelling.

Sun Conjunction Mercury 5.32 225

Because your ego and your mind are aligned, you possess much mental energy. You are always in a position to think about what you want, and in many ways, this is an interruption of the will. You are highly intelligent with a great drive to communicate with other. You invest a lot of pride in your intellectual capacities. You may not always listen as well as you speak, however! You might be too busy thinking about what to say next. But you are very curious and although you enjoy expressing yourself, you usually don't dominate conversations completely. As far as studying or learning goes, you are better off reading the material than listening to a teacher. These traits come from a strong need to take an active role in communications. It is very hard for you to passively listen and absorb information.

Your opinions are usually strong and you are an independent thinker. You tend to be proud of your opinions and thoughts, and might easily get a bruised ego if you are not "heard", if your opinions are pushed aside or ignored, or if your opinions are criticized. You are expressive and possibly a very animated speaker. You are also very witty and others enjoy your playful and sometimes mischievous sense of humor.

Moon Sextile Venus 1.36 174

You are generally amiable and project a soft and yielding manner. You possess natural charm and you are highly imaginative and sympathetic. You can make an excellent mediator and go-between. You are keenly aware of your need for relationships and for intimacy. You have a well-developed respect for qualities typically associated with the feminine. People appreciate you for your tender heart and friendly, diplomatic disposition. You should enjoy a good measure of personal popularity and success in your life. Although generally considered "lucky" with relationships and with money, this is less about luck than it is about a certain level of inner peace and positive energy that attracts pleasant situations. At times you can be complacent, downright lazy, and over-indulgent in the "pleasures" of life. However, you are a peace-maker at heart and have an unusual ability to help and heal others. You are gracious and warm.

Sun Opposition Midheaven 3.42 -118

She struggles with finding a career that suits the personality. She does not face up to problems and her plans are often difficult or even impossible for her to realize.

Moon Opposition Mars 0.33 -99

You can be precocious, animated, and passionate. You seek emotional excitement in your life. Although you often project a brave and tough image, your skin isn't as thick as you'd have others believe. You tend to put up defenses due to your emotionally vulnerable and excitable disposition. Unrest is characteristic, as you are bored by routine and become easily frustrated when life is "too easy". There's a buzz of energy surrounding you, and you tend to meet with many conflicts in your life. With the opposition, the conflict tends to be lived through relationships. The passions are quite raw, especially in youth.

If you can channel your excitable energy into sports or some other competitive field, all the better. Although you can be a decidedly amiable and interesting person, others always seem to sense your boundaries. Something is bound to get you worked up, and it's not always clear what that something will be. Your bluntness can be both appreciated and considered offensive, depending on your audience! You are eager to make a personal impact on those around you. It is possible that you are too eager in this sense, and you come across as self-absorbed and difficult to stomach. Patience is definitely not your strong point! Your responses are quick, and your are a passionate person who is usually quite courageous although your energy is sporadic and sometimes wasted. You are sexually responsive.

Short description: She is very emotional and is driven to do things by her emotions. She does not think things over or through in a given situation. She is irascible and easily angered or fired up. Marital disputes are very likely, and a heated domestic atmosphere.

Sun Trine Uranus 2.00 97

It is natural for you to question tradition. You are, above all things, an individualist. You naturally rebel against that which is established. It doesn't mean that you consistently break all the rules, but you definitely do question some of the rules, especially those that simply don't make much sense. You possess a huge distaste for routine. You work best when you have some say as to when and how you get things done. You possess much self-integrity. You avoid labeling people and are most offended when others attempt to label or stereotype you.

You easily embrace new ways of doing things, you stick up for the underdog, and you express yourself in unique and inspiring ways. You don't have to try to stand out as unique--you are original, creative, and progressive without trying. You are far from pretentious. You value honesty and truth, and you avoid putting on airs. You believe in the equality of people, and easily relate to people from all walks of life. You possess an unmistakable enthusiasm about life, and generally your life is interesting because you invite unusual or adventurous experiences into your life. You are generally appreciated by others because you are open-minded, fair, and not judgmental. Nothing really seems to faze you! You take things in stride, and are rarely shocked or taken aback by human behavior.

Jupiter Sextile Saturn 0.35 75

She is serious, patient, honest, hard-working, orderly. Her judgment is good and she thinks things over. She pursues her objectives to the bitter end, usually knowing when to choose the right moment. She is upright and respects the law.

Venus Square Jupiter 1.52 -75

She is nonchalant, pretentious, full of self-importance. She likes what is beautiful and sometimes ostentatious, and spends lots of money for the sake of appearances. She likes to please and has numerous amorous adventures. She is unfaithful and undergoes tribulations in love.

Venus Trine Mars 2.09 62

She is amorous, not a peaceful and calm lover but a passionate one with a strong temperament. She is demonstrative in love, and likes healthy pleasures. She enjoys life to the full.

Mercury Square Neptune 1.36 -51

She makes errors of judgement, and lacks sincerity. She lets things happen, and is happy in her dreamworld. Confronted by reality, she is hesitant, incapable of being tested and falls back into her imaginary world. She might become a drug-taker.

Mercury Trine Uranus 3.32 43

She is perspicacious, ingenious: she binds intelligence and originality together with genius. She likes literature, especially fiction. She is spontaneous in her friendships and knows how to take advantage of the situations that arise.

Moon Sextile Mercury 3.02 41

You can be quite expressive and animated in your speech. You have an outstanding memory and tend to pick up a lot of information from your environment. You love to chat and to exchange ideas. Even if you are shy, once you're friends, you love to talk about pretty much anything under the sun, and you enjoy sharing stories from your past! For the most part, you are focused on day-to-day activities in your communications rather than on grander philosophies. You are naturally curious and interested, and others find you very easy to talk to. You are accommodating and curious, but you are not as well equipped to handle heavy emotional demands. You thrive on change and variety. You might be a little addicted to gossip! More probably, however, you are simply very curious about others. There is a twinkle in your eyes, and you are never short on humor. You are playful and versatile--you make a fun companion and an interesting friend. You listen! Yes, you do talk and occasionally interrupt in your excitement, but you are a curious person who does want to hear what others have to say, and that is a real pleasure. In fact, you are more able than most people to get others talking, simply because you are very receptive and sympathetic. You pick up others' feelings and body language readily.

Sun Square Neptune 3.57 -41

You have a desire to be something special or to experience something more than the ordinary. You are a day-dreamer and idealist. It is easy for you to trust others, even (and perhaps especially) people who might seem from the outside looking in as unsavory types. You are looking to identify with something beyond what is normally expected of people. You may have had a childhood that didn't help you direct or define your life. Perhaps the early family life was lacking in supervision or clearly defined rules. A father figure may have been absent or distant and ineffective. You may have a glorified image of your father. Whether the image is very positive or very negative (or if it swings between these extremes), the image is not very clear or rational. Whatever the case may be, you struggle with defining who you are. You might gravitate towards the "wrong people", or get in with the "wrong crowd" in an attempt to define who you are. You might be susceptible to being taken advantage of by others, especially by men or authority figures. You may be easily led astray by peculiar desires or self-destructive habits. In order to add a greater-than-ordinary dimension of experience to your life that helps you to feel special and important, you might be attracted to Neptune-ruled behaviors, such as secret affairs, drugs, or other escapist behaviors. In some way, you may feel a strong urge to glamorize your role in the world. There can be some confusion about the past (such as remembering childhood experiences in ways that are far removed from reality), and a tendency to daydream about being someone more "important" than you feel you are. You may struggle with early conditioning that made you feel tossed aside or neglected in some way, and certainly not directed or supported. You are very sensitive, especially with regards to any real or imagined blows to your ego. If the natal chart shows a strong sense of reality and a robust mind (Mercury and Saturn well-placed, for example), the negative interpretations of this aspect are less extreme. Still, you are likely to recognize at some point in your life that you have a tendency to engage in escapist and self-destructive fantasies and/or habits. It is useful to be able to connect these behaviors with their probable source, which is likely to be a weakly-defined ego and identity in childhood.

Mercury Trine Mars 2.29 34

She likes to discuss, likes polemic. She has good judgment and is determined. She is a worker and has lots of energy. She has a lively intelligence and goes to the heart of things. She is enthusiastic, incisive, and energetic in thought and speech.

Venus Trine Ascendant 5.08 33

She likes everything beautiful, the Arts, balance and harmony. She is amiable and sociable. She likes entertainment and has a loving nature.

Neptune Sextile Pluto 2.06 29

[this is a multi-generational, not a personal, aspect, as both of the planets are outer planets]

Mars Trine Uranus 6.01 11

She possesses exceptional energy. She is impulsive but bold. She takes on risky enterprises for the good of the community, with all the energy she possesses. She has a great need of her independence, likes her freedom of action.

Jupiter Opposition Neptune 8.06 -10

She is easily influenced. She is a dreamer, who lets herself be seduced by fine words, which are not always sincere. She does not see wickedness and is often fooled by people.

Saturn Square Ascendant 3.51 -10

Her life is difficult and cramped. She is a worker, but success takes time in coming. She has problems in being open. She accepts solitude, rather than looks for it. Family problems.

Mars Trine Ascendant 7.18 3

[no description provided]

Saturn Trine Neptune 7.31 3

Her plans are realized in a methodical fashion, she works hard to achieve success.

Saturned

Evan
11-17-2011, 05:27 AM
It happens.

:)


You read his book?

No, but I'm pretty certain I disagree.


The way Tarnas describes it is that it is not actually causal, but it is correlational.

He actually leans heavily on Jung's idea of synchronicity.

(As you might imagine, he's very well-versed in Jung.)

The way he describes it is that it's like a clock.

The clock doesn't determine time, it merely points to it.

Same goes for astrology: it doesn't determine what is happening, it merely corresponds to what's happening.

He actually spells this all out very clearly in his interview from 2006 with the CBC that can be found on his website:
http://www.cosmosandpsyche.com/pages/interviews/

A clock doesn't determine what's happening, but it is causally related. The clock's position is a function of time.

I want to know how personality and star movement are linked... are they functions of the same thing? Is one a function of the other?


The location of the planets, relative to one another and relative to the astrological signs will have changed more between December 22nd and January 19th than between January 19th and 20th. Furthermore, birth time and location are also necessary, to determine the houses (of which there are 12), and thus how the planets and signs align with the houses.

I'm not 100% sure, but it sounds like you're getting tripped up by the sun sign.

That is the most common part of astrology that people are aware of: "What's your sign?"

But the sun sign is just one part of astrology, and it really isn't nearly as big a part as most people think it is.

The sun sign is like the canvas on which all the other parts of astrology are painted. Each different stroke (as well as the canvas), combine to create a person's full astrological profile.

Many different pictures can be drawn on the same kind of canvas, and there are 12 different kinds of canvases.

(Really, there are even more, cuz, in my opinion, if you fall on the cusp of two signs, your sun sign will really be a blend of the two).

Even if the sun sign isn't all of astrology, if it's a relevant variable at all my argument stands.


It most certainly is not.

Nor is it trying to be.

And remember, as Thomas Kuhn pointed out, scientific paradigms change.

Yeah, that point of mine wasn't very good.


There's a lot here to peel apart...

First off, I don't know if your account of what is scientific is indeed reflective of what makes something scientific (in the common sense).

I think the following exchange between me and Victor might be helpful in this regard:



Frankly, though, I do kind of like your version, as it does seem to open itself up to narratives that would find themselves outside the realm of falsifiability, and thus, our current dominant understanding of what it means to be "scientific". In that sense, your construction would actually seem to be more scientific, in the sense that word was originally intended to mean (i.e., scientia, or knowledge).

I guess I wasn't using "scientific" in the accepted sense.


Well, first off, not all materialism need necessarily be deterministic.

And, secondly, determinism and astrology aren't necessarily incompatible.

Materialistic determinism and astrology are incompatible, but that's because of the materialistic part, not the deterministic part.

I probably shouldn't have used the two terms interchangeably. But it's kinda irrelevant.

In fact, I don't even think materialistic determinism is incompatible with astrology. You just have to come up with a causal account (in physics terms) for the correlation between personality and star positions, which is basically the same problem you face if you create a framework outside of materialistic determinism.


This last part is interesting...

See, to our modern minds, I would agree, more words would have to be used to explain astrology than materialistic determinism.

But that is more a reflection of our modern cosmological view, than of the ideas of astrology and materialistic determinism themselves.

If you were to have to explain materialistic determinism to a culture where astrology were the dominant paradigm, you'd probably have to spend more words explaining materialistic determinism to them.

Okay, so it's true that minimum description length is language dependent. You can always come up with a hypothetical language in which the term you want to use is one word. But we can also say that some languages are more useful than others in terms of communication. I was assuming that our language is specialized towards expressing simple propositions about reality. Given the knowledge at our disposal, it seems much more simple to say "each state of the universe is a function of the previous state" (hypothesis 1) than "each state of the universe is a function of a hidden cause which randomly chooses variables in the universe and makes them correlated to one another through invisible means" (hypothesis 2). [edit: okay, this might be a bit of a strawman.]

If I'm choosing a belief about reality, even in the face of no data at all, I'll favor the first hypothesis because it's more simple. So if I were to change my belief to hypothesis 2, I would need data that hypothesis 2 would account for better than hypothesis 1. Enough of that data and I'll switch my belief.



And, lastly, I think it's relevant to note that the primary way to gather data about astrology is to check out as many astrological charts as possible.

Just a thought.

What I mean by data is "data that would distinguish the disbelief of astrology from the belief of astrology". I don't know if charts would help there. I want to see some scientific studies.

Ginkgo
11-17-2011, 07:58 PM
lol

+1

Zarathustra
11-17-2011, 11:23 PM
+1

Can you expand on that?

:truthy:

Ginkgo
11-17-2011, 11:32 PM
Can you expand on that?

:truthy:

P-L-U-S O-N-E

Jaguar
11-17-2011, 11:33 PM
P-L-U-S O-N-E

+1

Zarathustra
11-17-2011, 11:55 PM
P-L-U-S O-N-E


+1

Cowards

crack
11-18-2011, 12:35 AM
I have found that, whether or not it is representationally/correspondentially true, there is pragmatic value to it, as has every person with whom I've gone over their natal chart.So, basically, your interest in Astrology is solely because it aids self-discovery/reflection - NOT because what it says is true or not, but because it provokes self-reflection regardless?

If my understanding is correct: Are you only using Astrology because it's the most comprehensive* self-reflection-provoking tool out there?
*Astrology says a lot more than MBTI, for example, so it is going to produce more self-reflective thought than MBTI because with Astrology you have to go "wait, does this apply to me/is it really true for me?" many more times than with, for example, MBTI.

I find the reason "I'm only interested in Astrology as a self-reflection-provoking tool, idk and I'm not saying it's true or not, idc about that" utterly ridiculous because defense of a system that is all about being correct, if it is indeed incorrect, perpetuates a system that should be abolished (it is wrong, invalid, false, etc.). If everyone knew that Astrology's purpose was JUST to provoke self-reflection, then your interest would be all right... but since pro-Astrology folks claim that Astrology is about being right, that's what Astrology is about.

Zarathustra
11-18-2011, 01:00 AM
I have found that, whether or not it is representationally/correspondentially true, there is pragmatic value to it, as has every person with whom I've gone over their natal chart.So, basically, your interest in Astrology is solely because it aids self-discovery/reflection - NOT because what it says is true or not, but because it provokes self-reflection regardless?

No.

You go wrong when you say "basically", "solely", and "NOT".

I consider the pragmatic value of astrology to be a baseline that, regardless of whether astrology is representionally/correspondentially true or not, will always be there. A sort of bottom-line, or floor if you will.

Whether it is actually more than that (i.e., whether it is representationally/correspondentially true) is beyond our capability to know, in the sense of being able to scientifically verify or falsify it.

As such, I leave that question open.


If my understanding is correct: Are you only using Astrology because it's the most comprehensive* self-reflection-provoking tool out there?

You go wrong when you say "only".


*Astrology says a lot more than MBTI, for example, so it is going to produce more self-reflective thought than MBTI because with Astrology you have to go "wait, does this apply to me/is it really true for me?" many more times than with, for example, MBTI.

Agreed.


I find the reason "I'm only interested in Astrology as a self-reflection-provoking tool, idk and I'm not saying it's true or not, idc about that" utterly ridiculous because defense of a system that is all about being correct, if it is indeed incorrect, perpetuates a system that should be abolished (it is wrong, invalid, false, etc.).

@bolded: the issue is that astrology is unfalsifiable, so this can never be determined in a conclusive scientific manner.


If everyone knew that Astrology's purpose was JUST to provoke self-reflection, then your interest would be all right...

You go wrong with "JUST".

You seem to want to be reductionistic, to close off possibilities when there is no scientific proof that they should be closed off to.

I am NOT saying that's ALL astrology is: I'm saying that its representational truth is scientifically unverifiable and unfalsifiable.

As such, the only rational position is to be agnostic on the matter.

After that understanding is achieved, then you can see whether there's any pragmatic use to astrology.

(There is actually more, but this is Lesson 1. Once this comes to be properly understood, we can move on to Lesson 2.)


...but since pro-Astrology folks claim that Astrology is about being right, that's what Astrology is about.

Am I a "pro-Astrology folk"?

Is that what I'm claiming?

Magic Poriferan
11-18-2011, 01:19 AM
Whether it is actually more than that (i.e., whether it is representationally/correspondentially true) is beyond our capability to know, in the sense of being able to scientifically verify or falsify it.

As such, I leave that question open.

...........................

@bolded: the issue is that it is unfalsifiable, so this can never be determined in a conclusive scientific manner.

Yes, and the very nature of unfalsifiability makes something unscientific and generally leaves it dead in the water.
But science can approach some things that are important about astrology. We can use the scientific method to find that there's no meaningful correlation between a person's zodiac sign and personality traits. We can also grasp a sense of proportion about how trivially small any known force produced by these celestial bodies would be upon individual people. The concept of astrology requires one to conjecture a force that either contradicts or escapes extremely reliable principles of physics.

I guess I'm saying that if I should be agnostic about astrology, I should also be agnostic about evolution and diluvial continental formation.

crack
11-18-2011, 01:22 AM
Pro-Astro: I was not saying you are a pro-Astro person. I was saying what Astrology is for is determined by them.

I get what you're saying with everything else, but I think your stance is wrong because it ignores the important matter. If Astrology is not true, no one is going to care about it. It doesn't matter how neat and comprehensive a system it is, i.e. how great and unmatched a self-reflection-provoking tool it is; the current system of Astrology is set up to "tell you" you are a certain way, which in turn sparks self-reflection, but if it is a fact that Astro is untrue, the descriptions then are completely meaningless and random, and no one is going to desire to sit and read 1, 000, 000 personality characteristics or what-have-you just so they can decide if those 1, 000, 000 dimensions of personality (nice, mean? cold-hearted, selfless? intense, laid-back? enjoy peace, need action? etc.) are true for them or not.

The way I've handled the question of Astro's validity is this: It is possible we just do not yet understand how it works, so I then go on to testing Astrologically out statistically.

You are actually doing the first part of what I'm doing (considering it possible), but not trying to disprove or prove what you actually can falsify. Instead you are just going: "Well, it may be true or not, can't determine.... But here, this is what Astro says is true! (with the implication that there's actual relevance to the output by Astrology)"... no?

Nicodemus
11-18-2011, 01:28 AM
What is astrology's pragmatic use and value, Zarathustra?

Zarathustra
11-18-2011, 01:29 AM
Yes, and the very nature of unfalsifiability makes something unscientific and generally leaves it dead in the water.

I'm pretty sure that's not much more than a tautology.

Plenty of people (and understandably so) do not consider things that are unfalsifiable or unscientific as "dead in the water".


But science can approach some things that are important about astrology. We can use the scientific method to find that there's no meaningful correlation between a person's zodiac sign and personality traits.

You don't seem to have read the part when I dealt with this earlier in the thread.


We can also grasp a sense of proportion about how trivially small any known force produced by these celestial bodies would be upon individual people. The concept of astrology requires one to conjecture a force that either contradicts or escapes extremely reliable principles of physics.

Nor did you apparently read the part when I dealt with this.

Please read the thread.

Zarathustra
11-18-2011, 01:31 AM
What is astrology's pragmatic use and value, Zarathustra?

To gain insight into oneself, others, and possibly more.

Zarathustra
11-18-2011, 01:38 AM
Pro-Astro: I was not saying you are a pro-Astro person. I was saying what Astrology is for is determined by them.

I get what you're saying with everything else, but I think your stance is wrong because it ignores the important matter. If Astrology is not true, no one is going to care about it. It doesn't matter how neat and comprehensive a system it is, i.e. how great and unmatched a self-reflection-provoking tool it is; the current system of Astrology is set up to "tell you" you are a certain way, which in turn sparks self-reflection, but if it is a fact that Astro is untrue, the descriptions then are completely meaningless and random, and no one is going to desire to sit and read 1, 000, 000 personality characteristics or what-have-you just so they can decide if those 1, 000, 000 dimensions of personality (nice, mean? cold-hearted, selfless? intense, laid-back? enjoy peace, need action? etc.) are true for them or not.

The way I've handled the question of Astro's validity is this: It is possible we just do not yet understand how it works, so I then go on to testing Astrologically out statistically.

You are actually doing the first part of what I'm doing (considering it possible), but not trying to disprove or prove what you actually can falsify. Instead you are just going: "Well, it may be true or not, can't determine.... But here, this is what Astro says is true! (with the implication that there's actual relevance to the output by Astrology)"... no?

I've got to go to yoga shortly, but I appreciate the thoughtful response.

I'll get back to you later tonight.

Magic Poriferan
11-18-2011, 01:46 AM
The only thing I can find that seemed relevant was the part about material paradigms and alternative paradigms. Is that what you meant?

Zarathustra
11-18-2011, 01:48 AM
The only thing I can find that seemed relevant was the part about material paradigms and alternative paradigms. Is that what you meant?

On the second part, yes.

On the first part, search "canvas".

The first part was also thoroughly covered b/w me and Sim in the previous astrology thread, but CzeCze mangled it.

Nicodemus
11-18-2011, 02:05 AM
To gain insight into oneself, others, and possibly more.
Insight so unique that only astrology can provide it?

Zarathustra
11-18-2011, 04:07 AM
Insight so unique that only astrology can provide it?

Not necessarily, but astrology might be a particularly useful tool for figuring it out.

And, if it seems to reflect something accurate, then, well, who knows.

:pedantic:

Saturned
11-18-2011, 04:09 AM
hey Zara :)

I haven't been on much this week. When I get a chance I will peruse what you have posted and write a reply worthy of your time investment.

:)

Saturned
11-18-2011, 05:44 AM
Ok, Zara, Sorry for the delay. I had to take a forum break for some stuff.

Question: What is your source for these descriptions?

Here is my initial response:


Mercury Conjunction Venus 4.38 293

She looks on the bright side of life: she is gay, agreeable, optimistic, sociable. She likes to speak and write, and does both with charm and artistry. Her intellectual pleasures are influenced by her feelings. She is amorous and sensual. She likes beauty, the Arts but also travelling.

Ok, I can buy this for the most part. Although it does sound hilariously ENFP ;).


Sun Conjunction Mercury 5.32 225

Because your ego and your mind are aligned, you possess much mental energy. You are always in a position to think about what you want, and in many ways, this is an interruption of the will. You are highly intelligent with a great drive to communicate with other. You invest a lot of pride in your intellectual capacities. You may not always listen as well as you speak, however! You might be too busy thinking about what to say next. But you are very curious and although you enjoy expressing yourself, you usually don't dominate conversations completely. As far as studying or learning goes, you are better off reading the material than listening to a teacher. These traits come from a strong need to take an active role in communications. It is very hard for you to passively listen and absorb information.

Your opinions are usually strong and you are an independent thinker. You tend to be proud of your opinions and thoughts, and might easily get a bruised ego if you are not "heard", if your opinions are pushed aside or ignored, or if your opinions are criticized. You are expressive and possibly a very animated speaker. You are also very witty and others enjoy your playful and sometimes mischievous sense of humor.

This sounds like me as well, and also very ENFP. ;) I have my Italian heritage to thank for being an animated (complete with gesticulating hands) speaker.


Moon Sextile Venus 1.36 174

You are generally amiable and project a soft and yielding manner. You possess natural charm and you are highly imaginative and sympathetic. You can make an excellent mediator and go-between. You are keenly aware of your need for relationships and for intimacy. You have a well-developed respect for qualities typically associated with the feminine. People appreciate you for your tender heart and friendly, diplomatic disposition. You should enjoy a good measure of personal popularity and success in your life. Although generally considered "lucky" with relationships and with money, this is less about luck than it is about a certain level of inner peace and positive energy that attracts pleasant situations. At times you can be complacent, downright lazy, and over-indulgent in the "pleasures" of life. However, you are a peace-maker at heart and have an unusual ability to help and heal others. You are gracious and warm.

@underline, I laugh because my motto in life is "I hate people."
@bold, I laugh because this is hilariously not the case.


Sun Opposition Midheaven 3.42 -118

She struggles with finding a career that suits the personality. She does not face up to problems and her plans are often difficult or even impossible for her to realize

This sounds like the casting call of every INFP... nay, every NP ;).


Moon Opposition Mars 0.33 -99

You can be precocious, animated, and passionate. You seek emotional excitement in your life. Although you often project a brave and tough image, your skin isn't as thick as you'd have others believe. You tend to put up defenses due to your emotionally vulnerable and excitable disposition. Unrest is characteristic, as you are bored by routine and become easily frustrated when life is "too easy". There's a buzz of energy surrounding you, and you tend to meet with many conflicts in your life. With the opposition, the conflict tends to be lived through relationships. The passions are quite raw, especially in youth.

If you can channel your excitable energy into sports or some other competitive field, all the better. Although you can be a decidedly amiable and interesting person, others always seem to sense your boundaries. Something is bound to get you worked up, and it's not always clear what that something will be. Your bluntness can be both appreciated and considered offensive, depending on your audience! You are eager to make a personal impact on those around you. It is possible that you are too eager in this sense, and you come across as self-absorbed and difficult to stomach. Patience is definitely not your strong point! Your responses are quick, and your are a passionate person who is usually quite courageous although your energy is sporadic and sometimes wasted. You are sexually responsive.

Short description: She is very emotional and is driven to do things by her emotions. She does not think things over or through in a given situation. She is irascible and easily angered or fired up. Marital disputes are very likely, and a heated domestic atmosphere.

@Bold, I like how random this paragraph is. You like talking with people and are couragous. Oh, and you are a lady in the kitchen and a whore in the bedroom.
@underline 1, I don't see this at all. I am pretty good at making conversations about other people and not myself.
@underline 2: yes, I am emotional and they drive me for the most part. But I don't get angry easily. In relationships, I don't get angry easily either. And when I do, it is extremely rare for me to raise my voice.


Sun Trine Uranus 2.00 97

It is natural for you to question tradition. You are, above all things, an individualist. You naturally rebel against that which is established. It doesn't mean that you consistently break all the rules, but you definitely do question some of the rules, especially those that simply don't make much sense. You possess a huge distaste for routine. You work best when you have some say as to when and how you get things done. You possess much self-integrity. You avoid labeling people and are most offended when others attempt to label or stereotype you.

You easily embrace new ways of doing things, you stick up for the underdog, and you express yourself in unique and inspiring ways. You don't have to try to stand out as unique--you are original, creative, and progressive without trying. You are far from pretentious. You value honesty and truth, and you avoid putting on airs. You believe in the equality of people, and easily relate to people from all walks of life. You possess an unmistakable enthusiasm about life, and generally your life is interesting because you invite unusual or adventurous experiences into your life. You are generally appreciated by others because you are open-minded, fair, and not judgmental. Nothing really seems to faze you! You take things in stride, and are rarely shocked or taken aback by human behavior.

I can buy most of this paragraph as well.


upiter Sextile Saturn 0.35 75

She is serious, patient, honest, hard-working, orderly. Her judgment is good and she thinks things over. She pursues her objectives to the bitter end, usually knowing when to choose the right moment. She is upright and respects the law.

Eh, not so much here. Just a few aspects above it said I wasn't patient. Which is it? I don't even understand the part about the objectives. I am actually quite bad at persuing things. I respect the law because I don't want to be someone's bitch in jail.


Venus Square Jupiter 1.52 -75

She is nonchalant, pretentious, full of self-importance. She likes what is beautiful and sometimes ostentatious, and spends lots of money for the sake of appearances. She likes to please and has numerous amorous adventures. She is unfaithful and undergoes tribulations in love.

Yeah, a giant fat NO to all of this except I do like beauty, but... most people do.


Venus Trine Mars 2.09 62

She is amorous, not a peaceful and calm lover but a passionate one with a strong temperament. She is demonstrative in love, and likes healthy pleasures. She enjoys life to the full.

No comment. :whistling:


Mercury Square Neptune 1.36 -51

She makes errors of judgement, and lacks sincerity. She lets things happen, and is happy in her dreamworld. Confronted by reality, she is hesitant, incapable of being tested and falls back into her imaginary world. She might become a drug-taker.

A few years ago, this sounds more like me in regards to a dreamworld. Now, not so much. I think reality has Confronted me and we married.


Mercury Trine Uranus 3.32 43

She is perspicacious, ingenious: she binds intelligence and originality together with genius. She likes literature, especially fiction. She is spontaneous in her friendships and knows how to take advantage of the situations that arise.

I giggled at Uranus. Um, oh right, serious face time. *frowns* Sounds like me.


Moon Sextile Mercury 3.02 41

You can be quite expressive and animated in your speech. You have an outstanding memory and tend to pick up a lot of information from your environment. You love to chat and to exchange ideas. Even if you are shy, once you're friends, you love to talk about pretty much anything under the sun, and you enjoy sharing stories from your past! For the most part, you are focused on day-to-day activities in your communications rather than on grander philosophies. You are naturally curious and interested, and others find you very easy to talk to. You are accommodating and curious, but you are not as well equipped to handle heavy emotional demands. You thrive on change and variety. You might be a little addicted to gossip! More probably, however, you are simply very curious about others. There is a twinkle in your eyes, and you are never short on humor. You are playful and versatile--you make a fun companion and an interesting friend. You listen! Yes, you do talk and occasionally interrupt in your excitement, but you are a curious person who does want to hear what others have to say, and that is a real pleasure. In fact, you are more able than most people to get others talking, simply because you are very receptive and sympathetic. You pick up others' feelings and body language readily.

@bold 1: vice versa
@bold 2: i like emotions in others unless i don't like that person and then i want them to take their emotions and ship them off to patagonia. unless by heavy emotional demands this means Fe aux and doms. then it's true.
@bold 3: i find gossip boring
@underline: only if people are interesting. and very few are.


Sun Square Neptune 3.57 -41

You have a desire to be something special or to experience something more than the ordinary. You are a day-dreamer and idealist. It is easy for you to trust others, even (and perhaps especially) people who might seem from the outside looking in as unsavory types. You are looking to identify with something beyond what is normally expected of people. You may have had a childhood that didn't help you direct or define your life. Perhaps the early family life was lacking in supervision or clearly defined rules. A father figure may have been absent or distant and ineffective. You may have a glorified image of your father. Whether the image is very positive or very negative (or if it swings between these extremes), the image is not very clear or rational. Whatever the case may be, you struggle with defining who you are. You might gravitate towards the "wrong people", or get in with the "wrong crowd" in an attempt to define who you are. You might be susceptible to being taken advantage of by others, especially by men or authority figures. You may be easily led astray by peculiar desires or self-destructive habits. In order to add a greater-than-ordinary dimension of experience to your life that helps you to feel special and important, you might be attracted to Neptune-ruled behaviors, such as secret affairs, drugs, or other escapist behaviors. In some way, you may feel a strong urge to glamorize your role in the world. There can be some confusion about the past (such as remembering childhood experiences in ways that are far removed from reality), and a tendency to daydream about being someone more "important" than you feel you are. You may struggle with early conditioning that made you feel tossed aside or neglected in some way, and certainly not directed or supported. You are very sensitive, especially with regards to any real or imagined blows to your ego. If the natal chart shows a strong sense of reality and a robust mind (Mercury and Saturn well-placed, for example), the negative interpretations of this aspect are less extreme. Still, you are likely to recognize at some point in your life that you have a tendency to engage in escapist and self-destructive fantasies and/or habits. It is useful to be able to connect these behaviors with their probable source, which is likely to be a weakly-defined ego and identity in childhood.

@bold1: No, my dad may have been INTP, but I was an only child and he was pretty involved in my life.
@bold2: No, I don't.
@bold 3: Never done drugs... because i am lazy, lol. i have enough trouble putting energy into a relationship with someone. adding an affair to the mix just seems rather... pointless and annoying. also dramatic.
@underline: outside of wanting to write some ridiculously famous novel so that i can use that money to buy my own island and get away from people... not really :)
@bold: nope.

this last paragraph was kind of weird and full of too many "maybe this or that or this or that."

Overall, I find this very interesting Zara. I appreciate your time and effort into this. :) I still don't believe in this system as an accurate portrayal of who I am, but I enjoy hearing about it.

Neff Pea :hug: 2u. :)

Evan
11-18-2011, 05:47 AM
I am NOT saying that's ALL astrology is: I'm saying that its representational truth is scientifically unverifiable and unfalsifiable.

As such, the only rational position is to be agnostic on the matter.

I strongly disagree with this reasoning.

Zarathustra
11-18-2011, 07:09 AM
I strongly disagree with this reasoning.

Yes, most people don't understand this truth yet.

Feel free to critique my reasoning.

I'll show you why you're wrong.

Evan
11-18-2011, 07:34 AM
Yes, most people don't understand this truth yet.

Feel free to critique my reasoning.

I'll show you why you're wrong.

Just because a possibility is consistent with ALL data doesn't mean you should have no comment on the truth value.

It's like the flying spaghetti monster argument. Are you agnostic about the flying spaghetti monster?

Zarathustra
11-18-2011, 07:56 AM
Just because a possibility is consistent with ALL data doesn't mean you should have no comment on the truth value.

Could you expand on this a bit.


It's like the flying spaghetti monster argument. Are you agnostic about the flying spaghetti monster?

No.

I am agnostic however about whether there is a God.

As I am agnostic about whether we live in an inherently meaningful universe (i.e., meaning outside of what we give to it).

As I am agnostic about whether astrology is representationally true.

And I see all three of these as being highly related ideas.

I do not see the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a highly related idea, though.

I know that it was an intentional creation to try and prove a point.

ygolo
11-18-2011, 10:31 AM
What type of agnosticism are we talking about here? Is it possible to be agnostic about a particular issue, but at the same time think it is a waste of time to think about it too much? Because that is the position I have regarding the flying spaghetti monster, astrology, and many other un-testable ideas.

I generally only think about such things in passing, but when the topic turns to "the only rational position is agnosticism" my interest increases. In a way, I agree with you. Statements that are un-testable have no way of being proven true, and no way of being proven false. So agnosticism seems natural. However, my agnosticism is also accompanied by the attitude that "there are more valuable ideas to ponder."

Riva
11-18-2011, 12:57 PM
I believe in Astrology (Indian version of it).
This being said I should mention that I am south Asian, so I am heavily influenced by it.

Indian Astrology is so very complicated and differs from the Western one.
And it is old, very very old.
Older than Buddhism by many a thousand years.

Prince King Śuddhodana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Auddhodana) consulted astrologers when his son was born.
His son's name was Prince Siddhartha (Also known as Buddha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhartha_Gautama).)
(Which was and is done to this by Hindus and Buddhist when a child is born.)

500 astrologers there were, of which 499 said that he would either become a great emperor or
leave the inheritance to the throne and find the path to total liberation (Nirvana).
1 Said he would definitely find the path to total liberation.

King Śuddhodana tried to prevent his son from leaving the kingdom and becoming a hermit searching for Nirvana.
Gave his son everything he needed. (The king he was and gave him palaces, food, luxury and women.)
(A harem I believe.)

His son still left, ran away infact.
(INFJ he must have been.)
Attained Nirvana 6 years later.

So that one astrologer was correct.
But Buddha discouraged the people who listened to him from following astrology.
He warned them of the bad influences Astrology sometimes brings.

But the followers 2600 years later still follows astrology despite Buddha's warning.

Nicodemus
11-18-2011, 01:06 PM
A professor of religious studies taught me that Buddha was not a prince but simply the son of a 'noble' family.

Riva
11-18-2011, 01:12 PM
A professor of religious studies taught me that Buddha was not a prince but simply the son of a 'noble' family.

It is his opinion.
What matters is that he was not a son of a king but that he taught the four noble truths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths).

His father was the leader of the Shakya people.
It could be interpreted as King or maybe a noble family.

Ps -
What proof did he give to support this?
I am interested as to how he arrived at this.


Edit -
His father was the leader of the Shakya people. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakya)
It could be interpreted as King or maybe a noble family.

Nicodemus
11-18-2011, 01:18 PM
It is his opinion.
I reckon it was more than a guess.


What proof did he give to support this?
I am interested as to how he arrived at this.
It was a public lecture and his life was not the main topic, so she did not provide any proof. It was more an aside, similar to the way neuroscientists like tell you that Descartes' 'cogito ergo sum' is wrong.

Riva
11-18-2011, 01:30 PM
It was a public lecture and his life was not the main topic, so she did not provide any proof. It was more an aside, similar to the way neuroscientists like tell you that Descartes' 'cogito ergo sum' is wrong.

I believe I am so cute, therefore I am.
Is Descartes an ENTP? (I believe so, I have to.)
:laugh:


I reckon it was more than a guess.

Many interpretations and interpreters of history there are.

But,

Well, to Buddhist who follow Buddhism what is and should be important is the core message he brought -
the four noble truths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths)
the noble eightfold path (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path)
(Vipassanā) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipassan%C4%81)

*Turns in to a Vulcan*

Edit -
Vulcan philosophy and Buddhism difference incredibly.
I was only making a joke.

Orobas
11-18-2011, 02:50 PM
what is going on is this thread??? Hmmmm??? :)

One time, another INTJ I know, also with a lot of interest in astrology, told me my very detailed astrological reading. I was so pissed off that I , well, got pretty pissed off, as it was distrubingly accurate.

Nicodemus
11-18-2011, 03:01 PM
what is going on is this thread??? Hmmmm??? :)
Zarathustra defends his Ni.

Orobas
11-18-2011, 03:24 PM
]
Zarathustra defends his Ni.


http://www.dailyllama.com/news/2003/images/knight_of_ni_figure.jpg

yenom
11-18-2011, 03:50 PM
Used to believe it. Then met some people who are completely different from the sign they are born under. Starts to have doubts. I am not going to discredit it though.
The archetypes are still useful to classify people and understand human traits.
I give astrology more credit than the enneagram, which I think is more BS.
If you think astrology is BS, you should think the enneagram is BS as well.

I am an aries, and it fits quite well for me. Reading the scorpio description also seems to be looking in the mirror for me, which is like an introverted aries.

Critical Hit
11-18-2011, 04:31 PM
http://i43.tinypic.com/1zv31jc.png

Updated chart with time of day, as was requested.

Samsara
11-18-2011, 10:15 PM
Zarathustra .. Have you ever read Astrology, Psychology and the four elements by Stephen Arroyo?

It's a very interesting read.

The below is pasted from Amazon ..
In the first part, Mr. Arroyo compares the works of various psychologists (such C. G. Jung, Sigmund Freud and O. Hobart Mowrer), physicians (such as Alexander Ruperti), philosophers (such as L. L. White, Hans Stossel, Irving F. Laucks and Pascal), biologists (such as Père Tielhard de Chardin) and writers (such as Goethe) with various astrologers (such as Dane Rudhyar, David Hamblin and Marc E. Jones), mythological experts (such as Joseph Campbell) and people claiming clairvoyant abilities (such as Edgar Cayce). From these (and many others whom I have not named), Mr. Arroyo creates a synthesis to describe a more humanistic and holistic approach to both psychology and astrology, and encourages psychological counselors interested in astrology to utilize tools from astrology to assist in understand their patients. He also lays the foundation for viewing the zodiacal signs with regard to the seasons of the year in which they fall with their corresponding psychological meanings.

Evan
11-18-2011, 10:30 PM
If you think astrology is BS, you should think the enneagram is BS as well.

Why? Enneagram types are just adjectives -- you describe someone by using a type because they behave in ways consistent with the typing. Astrology types are assigned without taking into account any personality characteristics or behavior.

Zarathustra
11-18-2011, 10:38 PM
Have you ever read Astrology, Psychology and the four elements by Stephen Arroyo?

No, but thank you for bringing it to my attention.

It sounds interesting. I'll put it in my book list.

Zarathustra
11-18-2011, 10:40 PM
Zarathustra defends his Ni.

Says the faithful materialist.

Zarathustra
11-18-2011, 10:48 PM
One time, another INTJ I know, also with a lot of interest in astrology, told me my very detailed astrological reading. I was so pissed off that I , well, got pretty pissed off, as it was distrubingly accurate.

Yeah, it can be like that.

There's some stuff in mine that is rather bothersome.

I would prefer for these things not to be true, but all signs point to them being true.

Btw, Oro, I have not mentioned yet, but your experiment with your colleagues intrigued me.

I definitely want to do something similar with my group of friends (~8-10 people) who have known each other for 20-25 years.

I've done it with just the quick descriptions (sun sign, rising sign, moon sign) of a number of my friends, and they're so obvious it's ridiculous.

Evan
11-19-2011, 12:52 AM
If it's so accurate, why aren't there good correlational studies out there?

Also, you should do my reading thing; I'm curious.

Zarathustra
11-19-2011, 01:01 AM
If it's so accurate, why aren't there good correlational studies out there?

Such studies would be impossible.

I covered this with Sim in the other thread.

Unfortunately, it was mangled by CzeCze.

Zarathustra
11-19-2011, 01:04 AM
There are some "star twins" studies that supposedly falsify it, but they are so easy to explain away, they are more-or-less irrelevant.

One study I have actually heard of, by a mathematician, showed that there was a statistically significantly higher presence of Mars in the natal charts of the world's best athletes, but I don't know the details of the study well enough to give it enough credence.

Not that I would be closed off to an intelligently-designed study on the matter, but I think the possibility of one is highly unlikely, and largely antithetical to the entire purpose of astrology.

Evan
11-19-2011, 01:08 AM
I don't understand why they would be impossible. Seems relatively easy actually.

Zarathustra
11-19-2011, 01:10 AM
That's cuz you don't understand astrology.

Evan
11-19-2011, 03:31 AM
That's cuz you don't understand astrology.

Explain to me why you couldn't do a survey based study -- people read a bunch of profiles and pick the one they think matches them. See if they have a better than chance probability of guessing their own.

Zarathustra
11-19-2011, 03:57 AM
Explain to me why you couldn't do a survey based study -- people read a bunch of profiles and pick the one they think matches them. See if they have a better than chance probability of guessing their own.

Interesting idea, actually.

Somewhat similar to the one I've thought of.

I still suspect there'd be a lot of problems, though.

I have not let this cat out of the bag yet, but, what I posted for Saturned, that's only part of a natal profile.

I've decided to separate a natal profile into three parts (aspects, signs, and houses), and post just one at a time.

A full natal profile is really long, and to get someone to read through many of them, and actually do a good job, is a little bit specious.

You could break it down into smaller pieces (like I said: sun, moon, and rising signs only), and see what happens.

If you were gunna try to do this, that would make it the most manageable way.

It would still not be perfect, but you could see what happens.

I suppose if it's better than chance, that means something.

*

My idea is similar, but smaller.

I just want to get my group of friends, most of whom have known each other for most of our lives, and print out the same three things (none of which were included in the stuff I posted for Saturned), and see if we can figure out amongst ourselves which one belongs to whom. Imagine if 8-10 people working together were able to actually assign each one correctly to each individual.

That would be meaningful in my opinion.

*

One other issue I haven't mentioned yet with your construction, that wouldn't be as much of a problem with my group one, is that yours would depend, to an extent, on each individual having an accurate understanding of themselves, which, well, often times tends not to be the case. This would certainly seem to detract from the "scientific" nature of the study.

Also, I think that one needs to understand how to read an astrological chart to begin with, in order to do a good job, so the people would have to be trained in that regard, but, at the same time, would have to not already know what their chart is like -- cuz someone who's studied astrology is already gunna know how to identify on a piece of paper which one has their actual sun, moon, and rising signs (among other things, possibly), and you don't want this to skew the results to the positive. There's sort of an inherent conflict there, cuz you want the people to know how to read an astrological chart, but, you might say, one doesn't know how to read an astrological chart until one has actually had the experience of reading their own astrological chart. It's an odd rub.

(I'd never thought of this experiment before, so I'm kinda just coming up with issues as I go.)

Still, I think you present an interesting idea.

Evan
11-20-2011, 08:03 PM
My idea is similar, but smaller.

I just want to get my group of friends, most of whom have known each other for most of our lives, and print out the same three things (none of which were included in the stuff I posted for Saturned), and see if we can figure out amongst ourselves which one belongs to whom. Imagine if 8-10 people working together were able to actually assign each one correctly to each individual.

That would be meaningful in my opinion.

It might be meaningful, but it wouldn't be statistically valid. Also, you should have each person guess the profiles of everyone else without referring to each other. Then you have a sample size of 8-10 instead of 1.


One other issue I haven't mentioned yet with your construction, that wouldn't be as much of a problem with my group one, is that yours would depend, to an extent, on each individual having an accurate understanding of themselves, which, well, often times tends not to be the case. This would certainly seem to detract from the "scientific" nature of the study.

It's definitely true that people don't have entirely accurate understandings of themselves. We're already in a bit of a hand-wavey framework when we're talking about personality theories...

Luckily, it doesn't matter here as long as we assume that people have a better than chance understanding of themselves. The study would be correlational anyway. (It would make the correlation less pronounced, but it couldn't reduce it to chance.)


Also, I think that one needs to understand how to read an astrological chart to begin with, in order to do a good job, so the people would have to be trained in that regard, but, at the same time, would have to not already know what their chart is like -- cuz someone who's studied astrology is already gunna know how to identify on a piece of paper which one has their actual sun, moon, and rising signs (among other things, possibly), and you don't want this to skew the results to the positive. There's sort of an inherent conflict there, cuz you want the people to know how to read an astrological chart, but, you might say, one doesn't know how to read an astrological chart until one has actually had the experience of reading their own astrological chart. It's an odd rub.

Is there really no way to format the chart so it's written out in paragraph form?

Anyway, I didn't think too seriously about the scientific test thing and I came up with one... I'm sure many people out there have come up with way better tests than that. So why haven't we seen this kind of data yet? I'm gonna bet it's because people can't do better than chance.

Zarathustra
11-20-2011, 08:38 PM
It might be meaningful, but it wouldn't be statistically valid.

Yeah, I just don't really care.

In fact, and I will expand upon this later, a large part of all this is a wholesale rejection of the scientific method's approach to the truth.

I don't give a fuck if "science" wouldn't see the results of my experiment as a "valid" conclusion; if I were to do it, and we got all of the profiles right, that's fucking saying something, regardless of how "science" feels about it.


Also, you should have each person guess the profiles of everyone else without referring to each other. Then you have a sample size of 8-10 instead of 1.

I understand that you could do it that way, but that's not how I'm interested in doing it.

A large part of the reason is that I don't think many people understand how to interpret these things (I would bet that, of all my friends, I'm probably the only one who does). Furthermore, different people have different views of others, often largely based on their highly subjective interpretations; I think by working in a group, these factors could be mitigated to some degree.



It's definitely true that people don't have entirely accurate understandings of themselves. We're already in a bit of a hand-wavey framework when we're talking about personality theories...

Luckily, it doesn't matter here as long as we assume that people have a better than chance understanding of themselves. The study would be correlational anyway. (It would make the correlation less pronounced, but it couldn't reduce it to chance.)

Agreed.


Is there really no way to format the chart so it's written out in paragraph form?

You could, but then you'd be sacrificing the integrity of the study.

A rising sign has a very specific meaning. Therefore, one needs to understand what a rising sign means, in order to understand how their rising sign will play itself out in their life. Same goes for the sun sign. Same goes for the moon sign. Same goes for all of the planets and the signs they fall under. Same goes for all of the signs. Same goes for the ways in which the various planets aspect one another. You need to have an understanding of things, and be told what you're reading, in order to interpret it correctly.

To be completely honest, just writing down the stuff I did for Saturned, for example, doesn't really provide Saturned with that much understanding. It's just words on a page to her. Not until you understand why the person wrote those words, which can only come from understanding how astrology works, do those words really start to make much sense, to become meaningful.

This is why it's difficult to conduct any of these kinds of experiments: the people who are interpreting them must know how to interpret them in the first place, and this only really comes from having taken up astrology and given it the benefit of the doubt, to some degree, enough times and over an extended-enough period, so as to actually develop an accurate understanding of how astrology works from the inside.


Anyway, I didn't think too seriously about the scientific test thing and I came up with one...

See how many others you can come up with.

We can discuss the pro's and con's of them here.


I'm sure many people out there have come up with way better tests than that. So why haven't we seen this kind of data yet? I'm gonna bet it's because people can't do better than chance.

I would suggest some alternate possibilities:


People who understand astrology from the inside might not be all that interested in these kinds of tests. They might not be good at devising them, they might not have the funding/resources to put them together, and, quite frankly, they might just not even care. Just being real, these people probably often times aren't the scientific type. Of people with an interest in astrology, I'm assuming I'm a bit more on the scientific side than most. And, even then, I have philosophical and practical reasons as to why I don't think trying to scientifically test astrology will be that effective or meaningful.


People who don't understand astrology from the inside will usually: 1) have a poor understanding of how astrology actually works, and thus have a poor understanding of the ways in which the setups for the experiments are dffecting the results in potentially damaging ways; and 2) will often tend to be astrology skeptics who really don't care about getting to the truth of the matter, and thus putting together the best experiments possible, but who really just want to "disprove astrology once and for all". I'm sure these studies exist, and you can find them, but I would bet my money that I would readily find problems with most of them.

Evan
11-20-2011, 09:52 PM
Yeah, I just don't really care.

In fact, and I will expand upon this later, a large part of all this is a wholesale rejection of the scientific method's approach to the truth.

I don't give a fuck if "science" wouldn't see the results of my experiment as a "valid" conclusion; if I were to do it, and we got all of the profiles right, that's fucking saying something, regardless of how "science" feels about it.

This mentality is a pretty huge mistake IMO. A positive result can either be chance or your hypothesis being correct. You can't distinguish between these possibilities without using statistics -- the idea of confidence intervals is incredibly important here.

Rejecting statistics detracts from your credibility. It's math! Why would you argue with math?


I understand that you could do it that way, but that's not how I'm interested in doing it.

A large part of the reason is that I don't think many people understand how to interpret these things (I would bet that, of all my friends, I'm probably the only one who does). Furthermore, different people have different views of others, often largely based on their highly subjective interpretations; I think by working in a group, these factors could be mitigated to some degree.

They would also be mitigated by analyzing 8-10 samples instead of 1. But I hear ya... The only problem here is the one I mentioned above...

How would you know if you got your results by chance or because your hypothesis is correct? (You need a bigger sample size.)


You could, but then you'd be sacrificing the integrity of the study.

A rising sign has a very specific meaning. Therefore, one needs to understand what a rising sign means, in order to understand how their rising sign will play itself out in their life. Same goes for the sun sign. Same goes for the moon sign. Same goes for all of the planets and the signs they fall under. Same goes for all of the signs. Same goes for the ways in which the various planets aspect one another. You need to have an understanding of things, and be told what you're reading, in order to interpret it correctly.

Why can't you just include what a rising sun means in sentence form? If it's understandable, it can be written...


To be completely honest, just writing down the stuff I did for Saturned, for example, doesn't really provide Saturned with that much understanding. It's just words on a page to her. Not until you understand why the person wrote those words, which can only come from understanding how astrology works, do those words really start to make much sense, to become meaningful.

This is why it's difficult to conduct any of these kinds of experiments: the people who are interpreting them must know how to interpret them in the first place, and this only really comes from having taken up astrology and given it the benefit of the doubt, to some degree, enough times and over an extended-enough period, so as to actually develop an accurate understanding of how astrology works from the inside.

I don't really understand. Astrologers give readings, yes? Why not have them write the readings instead of saying them out loud. They'll do a bunch of 'em, then have subjects read a few each (with their own included). If they are right more than the percentage that their profile takes up in the set of profiles they see, points go to astrology. If astrology can gain points with a positive expected value over a statistically valid sample, that would mean something.


I would suggest some alternate possibilities:

People who understand astrology from the inside might not be all that interested in these kinds of tests. They might not be good at devising them, they might not have the funding/resources to put them together, and, quite frankly, they might just not even care. Just being real, these people probably often times aren't the scientific type. Of people with an interest in astrology, I'm assuming I'm a bit more on the scientific side than most. And, even then, I have philosophical and practical reasons as to why I don't think trying to scientifically test astrology will be that effective or meaningful.

I find it impossible to believe that no one with a rudimentary understanding of scientific testing also understands astrology. There are millions of astrology enthusiasts out there. Some of them must've cared enough and understood enough to try out some tests.


People who don't understand astrology from the inside will usually: 1) have a poor understanding of how astrology actually works, and thus have a poor understanding of the ways in which the setups for the experiments are dffecting the results in potentially damaging ways; and 2) will often tend to be astrology skeptics who really don't care about getting to the truth of the matter, and thus putting together the best experiments possible, but who really just want to "disprove astrology once and for all". I'm sure these studies exist, and you can find them, but I would bet my money that I would readily find problems with most of them.


Don't you think you're basically doing the same thing? You're defending astrology and trying to figure out ways to invalidate testing techniques that could provide counter-evidence. It seems like you're complaining about the bias of these skeptics by just being biased in the same way.

Magic Poriferan
11-20-2011, 10:18 PM
Anything that can be learned can be explained in a way that others can understand. If you can understand something, you can explain it. This is how we learn anything at all.

Furthermore, would should never be required to believe something before they can understand it. You should understand something before you should believe it.

I think Zarathustra's responses here are lacking on these requirements and subsequently I find them suspiciously evasive.

Tiltyred
11-21-2011, 01:07 AM
This thread is making me happy. Zarathustra preaching Tarnas. It's better than Christmas. Rock on!

MacGuffin
11-21-2011, 03:25 AM
...and the INTPs regain the upper hand.

AphroditeGoneAwry
11-21-2011, 03:27 AM
I think it's more NFs.....(infp, infjs....etc) ;)

MacGuffin
11-21-2011, 03:31 AM
I think it's more NFs.....(infp, infjs....etc) ;)

lol no

Zarathustra
11-21-2011, 05:56 AM
...and the INTPs regain the upper hand.

lol no

(just wait)

Evan
11-22-2011, 02:30 AM
I think it's more NFs.....(infp, infjs....etc) ;)

yeah we've been rocking it :)

chana
11-22-2011, 03:41 AM
http://i.imgur.com/IsrnP.gif

anyone good at synastry?

Zarathustra
11-22-2011, 05:07 AM
anyone good at synastry?

Nah, but I'm pretty decent at arithmetic, and your homeboy's violating the divide by 2, plus 7 rule...

Not a favorable sign...

chana
11-22-2011, 05:13 AM
Nah, but I'm pretty decent at arithmetic, and your homeboy's violating the divide by 2, plus 7 rule...

Not a favorable sign...

:laugh: i know, but only by half a year so i made an exception. plus his birthday's the day after mine! how could i pass that up?

Zarathustra
11-22-2011, 05:14 AM
:laugh: i know, but only by half a year so i made an exception. plus his birthday's the day after mine! how could i pass that up?

You NEVER violate the divide by 2, plus 7 rule!

You must wait two years, no sex involved, before dating this man.

Zarathustra
11-22-2011, 05:22 AM
The Synastry Chart


http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-bin/graphic/two2?dformat=2&date=1991/4/4&lat=42.29&long=83.08&adjust=5.00&date2=1983/4/5&time2=7.9&lang=en


Inter-planetary aspects

The following aspects between planets concern the possible relationships between two charts: especially the emotional and romantic relationship, but also aspects on social, intellectual and spiritual levels.


179 Hana Conjunction Mike Mercury - Mars

Positive aspect: They stimulate each other to be more creative and expressive. They learn a great deal from each other. They understand each other, like to discuss things with each other and undertake joint initiatives. Great intellectual understanding.

152 Hana Conjunction Mike Sun - Sun

Positive aspect: It's an excellent aspect for a union because neither has to explain to the other about his or her life goals and overall personality. The two people complement each other in basic ways. Although every relationship has its struggles and conflicts, this aspect helps strengthen your relationship because there is an overall understanding and you support one another at the end of the day.

-132 Hana Square Mike Sun - Uranus

Negative aspect: Here is an aspect that speaks against any long-term understanding. At the beginning, they will appreciate each other a lot, and will have pleasure in being together but, quite quickly, this life will become unbearable with disputes, conflicts and crying replacing love.

124 Hana Conjunction Mike Moon - Neptune

Positive aspect: An almost magical bond will unite them. Perfect harmony. There is something MORE to this relationship. It inspires the imagination, and there is a magical feeling of acceptance. There is much devotion here, especially on the part of the Moon person. Spiritual tenderness and romantic warmth between them. Their relationship encourages imagination in both people. This stems from an underlying acceptance of each other, which translates into the feeling that they are free to express their spiritual, imaginative sides without fear in each other's presence. Unconditional love, which is very rare in romantic partnerships.

-121 Hana Square Mike Sun - Neptune

Negative aspect: The Sun will probably suffer in this relationship. Neptune may deceive the other, lie, will promise a fantastic future that only exists in the imagination. Neptune will not be able to live up to these dreams.

112 Hana Trine Mike Moon - Venus

Positive aspect: They get on together very well, be it on the intellectual or the emotional level. They love to be together and appreciate each other's company.

-97 Hana Square Mike Jupiter - Saturn

Negative aspect: Difficult relationship as a couple, the two being too different even to complement each other.

89 Hana Conjunction Mike Moon - Uranus

Positive aspect: They will be very attracted to each other. They will have a life together that will be far from monotonous, sometimes quite out of the ordinary, thanks to Uranus. A life certainly full of surprises and not always agreeable for one of the two.

79 Hana Conjunction Mike Venus - Venus

Positive aspect: Complete respect for each other's romantic style. They don't easily offend each other and instinctively understand what makes the other person happy. Conflicts arise, but they are generally smoothed over with ease, as there is good will between them. Very good aspect for a successful union. Love, gaiety, understanding.

78 Hana Trine Mike Mercury - Neptune

Positive aspect: Good spiritual understanding.

74 Hana Conjunction Mike Mercury - Mercury

Positive aspect: Favorable for all types of communication. It is so easy to get the ideas flowing. Great mental energy between the two. They respect each other's minds.

72 Hana Sextile Mike Mars - Mars

Positive aspect: A life together in which each will desire the other and satisfy each other's sexual needs. As neither is frustrated, the couple will develop in a pleasant atmosphere. They will do great things together.

69 Hana Trine Mike Sun - Jupiter

Positive aspect: Here is a couple you like to be with. They are charming, agreeable and know how to entertain their friends generously and warmly. They go well together, and love each other in a discrete and sincere way, and appreciate the joys of life together.

-69 Hana Opposition Mike Mercury - Pluto

Negative aspect: A tendency to want to direct the partner's thoughts and ideas. Reading too much into what is said and what is not said. The Mercury person doesn't feel free to express his or her ideas, feels stifled intellectually by the Pluto person.

67 Hana Trine Mike Mars - Saturn

Positive aspect: A life together with few problems, love will develop into friendship, they will understand each other and go well together. It can be a little routine at times, and there is some self-consciousness with each other.

An indication that they will both be faithful.

-62 Hana Opposition Mike Venus - Pluto

Negative aspect: A very strong passion but destructive, to be avoided if at all possible. Jealousy, possessiveness, and resentment are very possible. If the relationship ends, it is difficult to remain friends, as one person feels burned.

-56 Hana Opposition Mike Mercury - Saturn

Negative aspect: Mercury will find it difficult to tolerate Saturn because Saturn seems to be critical of Mercury's ideas. Mercury complains that Saturn is too practical and unimaginative.

-53 Hana Opposition Mike Mars - Neptune

Negative aspect: It's too easy for this relationship to end up becoming manipulative and frustrating. You may find that you have a hard time accomplishing much on a practical level when you are together, because you tend to enjoy spending leisure time together.

46 Hana Sextile Mike Moon - Pluto

Positive aspect: An uncontrollable great passion which might be a nuisance, as it sometimes lacks thought or control. Jealousy, possessiveness, absolute need of the other's presence 24 hours out of 24 can be issues. However, when trust is in place, they both will appreciate that their relationship is growth-oriented and far from a lifeless routine. Their feelings for each other evolve over time, and they learn from each other on an emotional level at every twist and turn. This fact is a treasure. The love they share is transforming in nature, so that they both feel renewed - almost like they are "new" people - through the relationship.

44 Hana Trine Mike Mars - Pluto

Positive aspect: Enormous physical passion. The sexual attraction is intense and insistent. They want to be around each other as much as possible. Their sexual relationship evolves with time, instead of dissolves.

37 Hana Trine Mike Venus - Neptune

Positive aspect: Favorable union, they have the same artistic tastes in common, their life will sometimes be full of fantasy.

SmileyMan
11-24-2011, 12:18 AM
Think of all the useful things you could have learned in the same time that you have spent reading about astrology.

Zarathustra
11-24-2011, 12:32 AM
I really didn't spend that much time on it.

And, frankly, I consider the time that I did invest as time well spent.

Tiltyred
11-24-2011, 05:25 AM
Chana, are you in that relationship or just contemplating it?

Critical Hit
11-24-2011, 07:52 PM
Bro, where is my Astrology thingy at?

chana
11-24-2011, 09:02 PM
Chana, are you in that relationship or just contemplating it?

in it, but it's not serious at this point. i've only known him a little over 2 months.

Zarathustra
03-22-2013, 10:11 PM
I just accurately guessed a celebrity's sun sign for the second time this week...

I'd never attempted to do this before...

1/144

Little_Sticks
03-29-2013, 08:49 PM
I'm a rat in Chinese Astrology.

http://deerfieldcellarrat.com/storage/post-images/Rat-Logo-post.gif?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1249003806683


a long time ago god asked his favorite animals to join him at a special banquet in which he would give each animal their own year. the rat, being as tricky as he was, fooled the cat into thinking the banquet was the day after it really was.
the next night all the 12 animals lined up to walk to the great banquet. the rat told the ox that he was to tired to walk all the way and the ox kindly let the rat ride on his back. then when they were about to reach the palace, the rat hopped off the oxes’ back and was granted the first year of the zodiac. the banquet lasted for several hours and each of the animals love it, however the cat was sleeping and dreaming of a banquet that would never happen.

Chinese astrology rules. :wink:

EEW
03-30-2013, 09:49 AM
Astrology is interesting indeed.
But not because it is an explanantion of us, humans. BUt because it is one of those hundreds attempts to identify the human personality.
One believes that astrology is THE explanation of our characters - others believe other theories.
But I think that biasing the human character on the stance of the stars, is wrong.
Humans and stars have no personal contact or whatsoever (this sounds funny - just imagine, having personal contact with a star :P) nor can stars influence our thinking (cosmic rays? Naaaw - that won't do).
So astrology is fun and intersesting but not a theory of our characters.
That's just plain out of the picture.

:D sorry Zarathustra; but I really don't believe in astrology.

Zarathustra
03-30-2013, 01:13 PM
Astrology is interesting indeed.
But not because it is an explanantion of us, humans. BUt because it is one of those hundreds attempts to identify the human personality.
One believes that astrology is THE explanation of our characters - others believe other theories.
But I think that biasing the human character on the stance of the stars, is wrong.
Humans and stars have no personal contact or whatsoever (this sounds funny - just imagine, having personal contact with a star :P) nor can stars influence our thinking (cosmic rays? Naaaw - that won't do).
So astrology is fun and intersesting but not a theory of our characters.
That's just plain out of the picture.

:D sorry Zarathustra; but I really don't believe in astrology.

Congratulations.

You have declared, "I don't believe in astrology, therefore I don't believe in astrology."

EEW
03-30-2013, 02:37 PM
Congratulations.

You have declared, "I don't believe in astrology, therefore I don't believe in astrology."

Lol, sorry. :D
I know that my declaration is somewhat running in circles. xD
Welcome to my train of thoughts :P

Zarathustra
03-30-2013, 02:45 PM
Lol, sorry. :D
I know that my declaration is somewhat running in circles. xD
Welcome to my train of thoughts :P

So long as you're willing to admit it

:cheers:

EEW
03-30-2013, 03:28 PM
So long as you're willing to admit it

:cheers:

Sure, I know that :whistling::whistling::whistling:

AffirmitiveAnxiety
03-30-2013, 09:24 PM
It was through astrology, (admittedly not an in-depth analysis of it), that I came to MBTI and Jung. Unfortunately I never looked at natal charts and the like, being as how I was in a dearth of people willing to discuss the idea. At least...that side of it, I found plenty of people who read astrology predictions in THEIR MORNING NEWSPAPER, who nonetheless were unwilling to delve in further.

Just imagine that...the morning newspaper has a better grasp on your astrology sign than someone who has made time to study the subject in detail. :doh:

Anyhow I also read a little on chinese astrology including a book I picked up working at a charity shop some time ago which attempted to combine western and eastern astrology. However, this turned out to be full of the same kind of drivel as the newspapers.

According to that book though I am a Capricorn/Dragon. My....foray into astrology is probably quite unsatisfying to those reading this, as it has been to me. However it is a subject that helped me identify my need to understand myself.

Certainly I find this thread interesting and I will keep a watch on it.

decrescendo
04-06-2013, 11:41 PM
I'd rather not look through all 14 pages of this thread, but I'm curious whether any scientific studies have suggested how the arrangement of celestial bodies at a person's birth would have an impact on their personality. Has anyone read up on this? I did a quick Google search, which was interesting (http://near-death.com/experiences/articles012.html#a04c) -- but I don't know what to make of it

I'm apparently a Leo. I don't relate to it much.

Zarathustra
04-07-2013, 03:45 AM
I'd rather not look through all 14 pages of this thread, but I'm curious whether any scientific studies have suggested how the arrangement of celestial bodies at a person's birth would have an impact on their personality. Has anyone read up on this? I did a quick Google search, which was interesting (http://near-death.com/experiences/articles012.html#a04c) -- but I don't know what to make of it

It doesn't claim to work based on mechanistic causal principles.

http://www.cosmosandpsyche.com/PDF/CosmosAndPsyche/CommonGroundTwoSuitors.pdf

decrescendo
04-07-2013, 05:42 AM
And imagine that you are being approached by two different epistemologies—two suitors, as it were, who seek to know you. To whom would you open your deepest secrets? To which approach would you be most likely to reveal your authentic nature? Would you open most deeply to the suitor—the epistemology, the way of knowing—who approached you as though you were essentially lacking in intelligence or purpose, as though you had no interior dimension to speak of, no spiritual capacity or value; who thus saw you as fundamentally inferior to himself (let us give the two suitors, not entirely arbitrarily, the traditional masculine gender); who related to you as though your existence were valuable primarily to the extent that he could develop and exploit your resources to satisfy his various needs; and whose motivation for knowing you was ultimately driven by a desire for increased intellectual mastery, predictive certainty, and efficient control over you for his own self-enhancement? Or would you, the cosmos, open yourself most deeply to that suitor who viewed you as being at least as intelligent and noble, as worthy a being, as permeated with mind and soul, as imbued with moral aspiration and purpose, as endowed with spiritual depths and mystery, as he? This suitor seeks to know you not that he might better exploit you but rather to unite with you and thereby bring forth something new, a creative synthesis emerging from both of your depths. He desires to liberate that which has been hidden by the separation between knower and known. His ultimate goal of knowledge is not increased mastery, prediction, and control but rather a more richly responsive and empowered participation in a co-creative unfolding of new realities. He seeks an intellectual fulfillment that is intimately linked with imaginative vision, moral transformation, empathic understanding,
aesthetic delight. His act of knowledge is essentially an act of love and intelligence combined, of wonder as well as discernment, of opening to a process of mutual
discovery. To whom would you be more likely to reveal your deepest truths?

Reminds me of "The gateway to the invisible must be visible." I'm open to the possibility of something transcending mechanistic causal principles, but there has to be logical proof that it does...a loophole or something. Does that make sense / is that reasonable?

Because it sounds like the writer of this essay is implying that when a person sees the universe as a being with spiritual capacity, they will just intuitively know that astrology is legitimate. Or have I misunderstood?


It doesn't claim to work based on mechanistic causal principles.

It seems that there are at least some people who believe it does.

Riva
04-08-2013, 11:40 AM
Zara what teachings of astrology did you learn from? Vedic or western?

Astrology goes hand in hand with previous births. The west may have issues here.

chana
04-08-2013, 12:29 PM
how important do you (royal you) consider rising signs? are they equally important as the sun sign? more important?

also a theory I've had pretty much solely based on myself but haven't been able to find anything to back up- does the ruling planet if your sun sign have any special significance? (i.e. sun sign Aries rules mars, feel as though my placement of mars in cancer has a very strong influence on me.)

Wind Up Rex
04-08-2013, 03:10 PM
how important do you (royal you) consider rising signs? are they equally important as the sun sign? more important?

also a theory I've had pretty much solely based on myself but haven't been able to find anything to back up- does the ruling planet if your sun sign have any special significance? (i.e. sun sign Aries rules mars, feel as though my placement of mars in cancer has a very strong influence on me.)

These are good questions, and I hope Zara doesn't mind if I take a stab at answering them.


How important are rising signs?

In Western astrology, there are three places that an astrologer is gonna look to get a baseline read on a chart: the ascendant (rising sign), the Sun sign, and the Moon sign. The Sun sign gives an understanding of the native's conscious self, while the Moon gives insight into the unconscious self and emotional nature, and together they create a shorthand for who the person is. The ascendant is a little bit different and can be understood in a couple of ways. The ascendant is a "mask" of sorts. It gives an indication of how the native wants to be perceived and how they present their public face. Most things in astrology work in dynamic pairs or opposites, and the rising sign is no different. Opposing the ascendant is the descending sign, which gives an indication of the traits that the individual exhibits, but may not be aware of. The descendant is also important in relationship astrology as it points to an area where the native feels they may be lacking something, and will sometimes seek those traits in their significant others.

Anyways. The point about the ascendant is that if you consider the Sun to be the basic personality, then it's sort of an added flavor. My ascendant in Capricorn, for instance, makes me come across as a lot more focused and conservative than one would expect for someone with Sun in Gemini, and you have to get to know me to see the more Gemini traits. It's not that the ascendant persona is "fake", but it's more the lens through which the other energies in the chart will typically be filtered by the native. In terms of relative importance, however, I'd say Sun=Moon>Ascendant.


What is the significance of the Sun sign's ruling planet?

This is another really good question. Despite the fact that an astrologer is going to look to the Sun-Moon-Ascendant combo as kind of a quick and dirty way to get a sense of a person, there's a lot more going on in a natal chart. Basically, as I was getting at earlier, a chart ought to be understood in terms of relationships. Not just the dynamic pairs, but also the planets relative positioning (angles), rulership, and their placement throughout the houses and signs of the chart. This business of positioning and placement dictates the power of a planet to influence not only the native, but the power it holds over the other planets in the chart.

What does that mean? Well, one of my favorite analogies is to think of the planet as a Hollywood actor, the sign its placed in as its role in the film (as signs provide motivation and the fundamental interests of the planet), and the house as the kind of movie. The better these three things jive with one another, the more naturally the planet is able to express itself, and the more powerful it is in the chart. The thing that determines a planets "comfort" in a sign is its rulership of that sign. Going back to your example, Mars rules Aries, and is naturally "happiest" expressing those energies. On the other hand, Mars is in Fall in Cancer, which means that it's at its weakest there.

The other implication of Mars being in Cancer is that its in a sign that technically belongs to another planet. In this case, the Moon, as it is the ruler of Cancer. When a planet is another planet's sign, then that planet actually "reports" to that ruling planet. That means that the placement of your Moon has a lot to say about how Mars expresses itself in addition to Mars' placement in sign and house. At the top of this chain of command is the planet (or occasionally planets) that rule your chart. This planet is the dominant energy in your chart, and can be found by way of a dispositor tree. So far I know already that part of the chain of command in your chart goes

Moon-->Mars-->Sun

Anyways, I've written a lot of words to say that your intuition about the importance of Mars in Cancer to your Sun in Aries is absolutely on point. Your particular Sun-Mars placement points to a sense of self that is independent and action oriented, but whose fundamental concerns center around asserting your emotional needs. This is probably due to the fact that your sense of self can be a bit hazy at times, and you may struggle with maintaining healthy boundaries as it is easier for you to identify the needs of others than your own. I would imagine that this combination would cause you to seek out relationships with a certain intensity, but be ambivalent about them once you found them just because you do value your independence so highly. Mars in fall and a Sun that's kind of low in the planetary pecking order would explain the kind of Piscean vibe that I've gotten from you in our interactions. I'd have to see the rest of your chart to say anything more pointed than that.

chana
04-08-2013, 03:36 PM
Wind-Up Rex
ahhh you're awesome, thank you. very well put, especially the 2nd answer.

i can relate to your sun sign/ascendant dissonance too. i'm libra rising which is opposite my sun sign and I feel that people who don't know me well think I'm much kinder and more diplomatic than I am deep down. that's probably working in my favor though :D

feel free to look at my chart (http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-bin/astro/natal?member=&recalc=&name=hana&sex=f&d1day=4&d1month=4&d1year=1991&d1hour=20&d1min=10&citylist=Royal+Oak%2C+MI+%2826%29%2C+United+States&lang=en) if you have the time. I appreciated your insight :)

Wind Up Rex
04-08-2013, 04:01 PM
I appreciated your insight :)

I appreciate it! I'm kind of a spazz when it comes to subjects that interest me, so I kind of go into info overload mode. :D

I'll PM you re: your chart. :)

Zarathustra
05-29-2013, 06:15 AM
3/3

This time it was Jennifer Lopez.

If this is entirely random, there'd be a 1/1728 chance I got all three right.

Mole
05-29-2013, 09:04 AM
It was through astrology, (admittedly not an in-depth analysis of it), that I came to MBTI and Jung.

Astrology is the ur-religion: it forms the basis of all religions. But astronomy has shown astrology to have no truth value, and so we can infer that all religions have no truth value.

Why, astrology can even bring us to the Führer lover and misogynist, Jung, and bring us to a fake personality test called mbti.

Zarathustra
05-29-2013, 01:24 PM
But astronomy has shown astrology to have no truth value, and so we can infer that all religions have no truth value.

This is patently false.



Why, astrology can even bring us to the Führer lover and misogynist, Jung, and bring us to a fake personality test called mbti.

...and, as such, the fact that you would try to pass off such horse shit as truth calls into question everything else you try to push on this forum.

Riva
05-29-2013, 03:38 PM
Astrology is the ur-religion: it forms the basis of all religions. But astronomy has shown astrology to have no truth value, and so we can infer that all religions have no truth value.

It does?

Coriolis
05-29-2013, 05:47 PM
Reminds me of "The gateway to the invisible must be visible." I'm open to the possibility of something transcending mechanistic causal principles, but there has to be logical proof that it does...a loophole or something. Does that make sense / is that reasonable?

Because it sounds like the writer of this essay is implying that when a person sees the universe as a being with spiritual capacity, they will just intuitively know that astrology is legitimate. Or have I misunderstood?
Seems reasonable to me. I would like more information about this train of thought as well.

Mole
05-30-2013, 01:56 AM
It does?

Go to Youtube and you will find an excellent video showing that astrology is our ur-religion.

And don't say I don't do anything for you, for I have looked up the very video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD9f0XU_S78

and Part 2 at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frwlyx2u8JE

and Part 3 at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovFFZ4iEFCo

So astrology is very important because it is the origin of religion.

We have the origin of species, the origin of the universe and now the origin of religion.

Mole
05-30-2013, 01:58 AM
calls into question everything else you try to push on this forum.

I want you to read everything I post on Central, Zarathustra, and question every word.

greenfairy
07-04-2013, 08:43 PM
You have Saturn in the first house conjunct the Ascendant. That's a difficult position. I have Saturn in the seventh.

Zarathustra
07-04-2013, 08:59 PM
There are definitely more difficult aspects in my natal chart.



Saturn in I

He can be self-conscious in new situations, especially when young. His manner is somewhat cautious and guarded. First reactions to new ideas or plans are cautious and somewhat negative, but these are only first reactions. Can be methodical, patient, somewhat distrustful, polite. He speaks little at first and does not waste energy unnecessarily. He has a good memory and sense of organization, likes to do things well. He is never slapdash and has a sense of responsibility.



116 Conjunction Saturn - Ascendant

He is serious, sober, thoughtful, pays attention to detail. He likes to be with older people.

Zarathustra
07-04-2013, 09:03 PM
Although, this corollary, which you did not (explicitly) mention, is one challenging part:


-32 Square Saturn - Midheaven

He must struggle a lot and work hard to achieve his aims. Although confronted by discouraging circumstances, he knows how to set off again and continue the fight.

RaptorWizard
07-05-2013, 12:19 AM
I don't chart the stars; I just blow into the bubble-branes!
http://aparanormal.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/multiverse.jpg

Paul Hackett
09-27-2013, 02:03 PM
personally,I have found astrology more useful than any enneagram or mbti results.

Nicodemus
09-27-2013, 02:31 PM
personally,I have found astrology more useful than any enneagram or mbti results.
Do you sell horoscopes?

Paul Hackett
09-27-2013, 02:34 PM
Do you sell horoscopes?

nope.

msg_v2
09-27-2013, 02:39 PM
I think astrology is probably bullshit, but part of me wonders if something like being born in a certain part of the year might have an effect on your personality.

I mean, think about how different the first experiences of someone born in the winter might be versus someone born in the summer. It's possible that it might have some kind of effect.


Same store? The reason may be a business trick. Libras are produced around Christmas and New Year, so they may be among the most common zodiac signs.

I can't remember how squicked out I was when I realized my parents must have conceived me on my dad's January 2nd birthday, or at least that time of year.

My parents had sex. EEEWWWWWW.

Nicodemus
09-27-2013, 04:00 PM
I can't remember how squicked out I was when I realized my parents must have conceived me on my dad's January 2nd birthday, or at least that time of year.

My parents had sex. EEEWWWWWW.
Now comes the weirdest twist:

Luke, that is my birthday.

msg_v2
09-27-2013, 04:01 PM
Now comes the weirdest twist:

Luke, that is my birthday.

WHAT A TWIST.

skylights
09-27-2013, 06:46 PM
I've always liked the month of June in particular. Sort of simultaneously strange and pleasing to realize that was almost definitely the month I was conceived. :mellow:

Mole
10-02-2013, 04:22 AM
personally,I have found astrology more useful than any enneagram or mbti results.

Anything can be useful, but is it true?

chana
10-02-2013, 04:58 AM
Anything can be useful, but is it true?

What's your sign, Mole?

Mole
10-02-2013, 05:03 AM
What's your sign, Mole?

The sign of Mole is the sigh of a heart in a heartless world.

Lady_X
10-02-2013, 09:45 PM
I've always liked the month of June in particular. Sort of simultaneously strange and pleasing to realize that was almost definitely the month I was conceived. :mellow:

holy shit! i never thought to think about that! and my favorite month has always been oct...like always...i even decided to get married in oct because i loved it...and just now realized that would have been the month for me too whoa wtf.

edit: and! just asked my bf and he said feb which makes sense for his too okay thats weird.

Lady_X
10-02-2013, 09:47 PM
my guess for victor is aquarius. idkw.

RaptorWizard
10-03-2013, 01:36 AM
I have a theory that prophecies of any nature, such as Astrological predictions can be averted if the right steps of action are taken.

We have free will; nothing is fixed, and everything is contingent with the choices we choose to make.

skylights
10-03-2013, 02:30 AM
holy shit! i never thought to think about that! and my favorite month has always been oct...like always...i even decided to get married in oct because i loved it...and just now realized that would have been the month for me too whoa wtf.

edit: and! just asked my bf and he said feb which makes sense for his too okay thats weird.

:laugh: Hah that is too funny!! Maybe on some subconscious level we connect with it...

senza tema
10-03-2013, 03:01 AM
my mom told me i was conceived on her birthday.

i have no particular fondness for march though. i like my own birth month better (december).

YWIR
10-03-2013, 08:10 AM
Zara, tell me what you think of a cusp.

Starry
10-03-2013, 06:12 PM
Zara :tongue10: <-what? I don't...


Zarathustra... What do you consider to be your most dynamic or unique or interesting aspect or configuration in your own chart?

And what is the most interesting thing you've personally ever seen...?

five sounds
10-03-2013, 08:58 PM
Zara, tell me what you think of a cusp.

I want to know this too. I'm a cusper and am curious about what people have to say on the subject.

Zarathustra
10-08-2013, 02:40 AM
Zara :tongue10: <-what? I don't...

How I actually know exactly what this means is astounding...

And I don't know if that's so much me talking up my own game as me talking up yours...

**************************************************

Zarathustra... What do you consider to be your most dynamic or unique or interesting aspect or configuration in your own chart?

Planet Aspect Planet Orb/Value
Sun Conjunction Mercury 9.05 33
Sun Sextile Neptune 3.14 23
Sun Conjunction Pluto 5.34 97
Sun Conjunction Ascendant 9.13 16
Moon Opposition Venus 3.33 -97
Moon Opposition Mars 5.53 -104
Moon Square Jupiter 4.36 -49
Moon Trine Saturn 0.37 120
Moon Square Uranus 1.46 -85
Moon Trine Pluto 5.45 28
Moon Trine Ascendant 2.06 66
Venus Conjunction Mars 2.20 199
Venus Square Jupiter 1.03 -74
Venus Sextile Saturn 2.56 29
Venus Square Uranus 1.47 -35
Mars Square Jupiter 1.17 -130
Mars Square Uranus 4.07 -28
Jupiter Conjunction Uranus 2.50 344
Jupiter Trine Midheaven 2.49 49
Saturn Conjunction Pluto 6.22 73
Saturn Conjunction Ascendant 2.43 116
Saturn Square Midheaven 1.10 -32
Uranus Trine Midheaven 0.01 30
Neptune Sextile Pluto 2.20 25
Pluto Conjunction Ascendant 3.39 25
-------------------------------------
Positive: 1273 Negative: -634 Total: 639


Natal Chart
http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-bin/graphic/daisy24?dformat=2&date=1983/10/17&time=7.46&lat=33.44&long=117.52&adjust=7.00&lang=en&x=480&y=640

So...

See that pink right angle?

And how that red line connects the ends of those pink lines into a triangle?

That's the dominating dynamic within my chart, and it involves 10 (of 25) major individual aspects in my chart (all 25 can be found in that little boxy triangle thing to the bottom left of my chart, as well as in the chart itself, as well as in the table of aspects I included above the chart) and accounts for 60% (1145/1907) of the absolute values of the values that CafeAstrology's program calculates for those 25 major aspects -- in other words, that single shape is a major part of my chart -- here are the components:


Conjunctions (no lines):
Venus Conjunction Mars 2.20 199
Jupiter Conjunction Uranus 2.50 344

Pink Lines (vertical):
Venus Square Jupiter 1.03 -74
Venus Square Uranus 1.47 -35
Mars Square Jupiter 1.17 -130
Mars Square Uranus 4.07 -28

Pink Lines (horizontal):
Moon Square Jupiter 4.36 -49
Moon Square Uranus 1.46 -85

Red Lines:
Moon Opposition Venus 3.33 -97
Moon Opposition Mars 5.53 -104

Now, each one of those aspects has its own meaning, and I could put those here (I probably will below, in spoiler tags), but I think in order to understand the shape as a whole, one, while interpreting each individual aspects and the meaning associated with that particular aspect, must not get bogged down on each individual aspect, but try to look at what the aspects, taken together as a group, mean.

In this case, having studied all those individual aspects, and what they mean, and having considered how they all fit together, this is what I'd say about them as a group: there are three parts to this dynamic, each represented by a corner of the triangle: 1) my romantic life (top corner; Venus & Mars); 2) my career (left corner; Jupiter & Uranus); and 3) my emotional life (bottom corner; the Moon).

These three aspects are not in harmony with one another. They are actually in serious conflict.

None of them seems to line up well with one another. In fact, they line up against one another.

The two saving graces would be the conjunctions, but even those have their issues:



199 Conjunction Venus - Mars

He is amorous, not a peaceful and calm lover but a passionate one with a strong temperament. He is demonstrative in love, and likes healthy pleasures. He enjoys life to the full.




344 Conjunction Jupiter - Uranus

He knows what's going on at a glance. He thirsts after knowledge, and is a good organizer. He is very independent, likes his freedom of action, is a non-conformist. He is very agreeable company and is always in demand.


Both speak of intensity, especially the first (which is the more problematic of the two [due to that intensity {and its impracticalities}]).

Other aspects in that formation (i.e., the negative [or challenging] ones):


Pink Lines (vertical):


-74 Square Venus - Jupiter

He is nonchalant, pretentious, full of self-importance. He likes what is beautiful and sometimes ostentatious, and spends lots of money for the sake of appearances. He likes to please and has numerous amorous adventures. He is unfaithful and undergoes tribulations in love.


-35 Square Venus - Uranus

He looks for new sensations in love and is often unsatisfied by affairs which quickly turn into purely conventional relationships. He likes novelty, adventure, the eccentric: he is frivolous, unstable, unfaithful. Marriage is not for him and, if he does throw himself into this adventure, it will end in divorce, written off as a youthful mistake. As a result of his numerous love affairs, he makes sure his line is continued.


-130 Square Mars - Jupiter

He refuses to accept any guidance. He lacks forethought, acts impulsively and sometimes imprudently, which can cause problems. He wants everything yesterday and uses whatever means necessary to achieve his objectives, even if they are dishonest or not very commendable. His emotional life is fraught with quarrels and sometimes violent conflicts.


-28 Square Mars - Uranus

He is full of contradictions. He is original, tending to the eccentric, violent, headstrong, impatient and irascible. He fights to the bitter end to overcome hurdles, and has the strength to overcome them.

Pink Lines (horizontal):


-49 Square Moon - Jupiter

He is sometimes indifferent to others, to those who surround him: he is, without thinking, negligent and indecisive. He may "feed" inner restlessness with excesses in gambling, shopping, or other comforts, and his honesty is sometimes a bit elastic. This aspect does not help professional success, especially as he tends to spend more than he earns. Sometimes enthusiastic and gung-ho, and other times indifferent, it can be challenging for others to understand him. Needs to find constructive avenues for his inner restlessness.


-85 Square Moon - Uranus

He has a feverish, non-constructive restlessness. He is too susceptible. His life is full of change. He is irritable and stubborn at times due to an inner restlessness that is hard to satisfy. He has difficulty concentrating on a job. Nervous strain. His friendships are like his professional and love life - sometimes unstable. There is a strong need for closeness, but when people get too close, he gets cagey, as he values personal freedom just as much.

Red Lines:


-97 Opposition Moon - Venus

Because you value harmony, you may find yourself giving in to others too easily, especially in the first half of life. Resentment is possible, as you can feel that you are the one who seems to do all the acquiescing. There can be a distinct tendency to become friends (and lovers) with people too readily, simply because there is a strong need for approval and a hunger for receiving affection. As such, you may get involved with people who seem to really like you, and you fail to consider whether you actually like them back! It's somewhat of a weakness, as you are very charmed by the idea that someone seems to really like and appreciate you. Generally, one of your life's lessons is to learn to discriminate more and to get in touch with what you truly want and need. The functions of the Moon (which rules the emotions and feelings, amongst other things) and the functions of Venus (which rules social relationships, harmony, and partnership, amongst other things) are at cross-purposes. When you attempt to feed the needs of one function, it is often at the expense of the other, until you find some sort of balance. This can play out in a variety of ways. For example, there can be conflicts in partnerships about parenting or whether or not to have a family. You may find yourself compromising your own emotional needs in order to find and keep love. Peace and harmony are important to you--perhaps too much so, as you can easily be taken advantage of. Insecurity is something that you need to deal with at some point in your life. Very sensual, you sometimes replace love with food or shopping! You can also be quite sexually active and sometimes quite lustful. You possess a distinct lazy streak. You are capable of working hard, but you truly appreciate luxuriating and enjoying as many pleasures as possible, and self-discipline simply isn't always at your disposal!


-104 Opposition Moon - Mars

You can be precocious, animated, and passionate. You seek emotional excitement in your life. Although you often project a brave and tough image, your skin isn't as thick as you'd have others believe. You tend to put up defenses due to your emotionally vulnerable and excitable disposition. Unrest is characteristic, as you are bored by routine and become easily frustrated when life is "too easy". There's a buzz of energy surrounding you, and you tend to meet with many conflicts in your life. With the opposition, the conflict tends to be lived through relationships. The passions are quite raw, especially in youth.

If you can channel your excitable energy into sports or some other competitive field, all the better. Although you can be a decidedly amiable and interesting person, others always seem to sense your boundaries. Something is bound to get you worked up, and it's not always clear what that something will be. Your bluntness can be both appreciated and considered offensive, depending on your audience! You are eager to make a personal impact on those around you. It is possible that you are too eager in this sense, and you come across as self-absorbed and difficult to stomach. Patience is definitely not your strong point! Your responses are quick, and your are a passionate person who is usually quite courageous although your energy is sporadic and sometimes wasted. You are sexually responsive.

Short description: He is very emotional and is driven to do things by his emotions. He does not think things over or through in a given situation. He is irascible and easily angered or fired up. Marital disputes are very likely, and a heated domestic atmosphere.

So, yeah...

Honestly, when I read that shit, it freaks me the fuck out.

*****************************************

If there was just one single aspect I'd have to point to, though, it would probably be this:


97 Conjunction Sun - Pluto

You have much sexual vitality and passion. It is easy and natural for you to find a passion and pursue it, and to focus on a goal. You are not much scared of anything. You enjoy and embrace growth, especially of the psychological kind. You love a good mystery, and you are adept at solving it.You readily assign meaning to what others might consider "ordinary" events. You look for symbols, and read between the lines in most any situation. The physical vitality is generally strong, and the body is usually able to heal quickly. You are not afraid to get your hands dirty, and you are usually quick to help others--not only with mundane tasks, but also on a spiritual or psychological level. Your insight is sharp and sometimes awe-inspiring. You are perceptive and not easily rattled or surprised in life. You are not a do-gooder nor are you a law-breaker. However, you are not afraid of the "dark side" of human nature, and you will bend the rules from time to time if you feel the need to do so. You take particular pleasure in growth and life's lessons. You are not fond of superficiality, and are generally the first to spot pretense of any kind. You are passionate and can be intense. You have a hunger to experience more than just an "ordinary" life, and you can be quite ambitious. Some people with this aspect are perfectionists, demanding much from themselves and reasonable amounts of effort and honesty from others.

Another member on here who has a thing for astrology used to rep me a Pluto symbol when he'd see me overtly display its behaviors.

I was actually reading out loud a description of this aspect from elsewhere on the web when my ex was in the other room, not knowing what I was reading, and she walked in, mouth agape, and earnestly said, "OMG, that is so fucking you I don't even know what to say."

Unfortunately, I'm having some difficulty finding that specific description, but here's another:


A conjunction of the Sun and Pluto shows you possess the traits of an extremist in some ways. Your likes and dislikes can be intense. Being moderate in your actions is always a problem. There is a power complex in play here, and you have to deal with a tendency to become dictatorial. You have a power ego you assert on some occasions, and not always with common sense. Even if it doesn't show elsewhere in the chart, you are highly assertive and competitive. Often your strong drive is directed at improving social conditions in your environment. You have a significant social consciousness, and you are very intolerant of unfair circumstances and injustices.

You tell me how much that does or does not sound like me.

*****************************************


And what is the most interesting thing you've personally ever seen...?

Related solely to astrology, or regarding anything whatsoever?

Zarathustra
10-08-2013, 03:21 AM
Zara, tell me what you think of a cusp.


I want to know this too. I'm a cusper and am curious about what people have to say on the subject.

I think that astrology is like a kaleidoscope, and that each of our souls is like an individual frame within that kaleidoscope: one small turn, and new colors and shapes come into frame, and previous colors and shapes disappear, or blend with new colors and shapes, or old colors and shapes in different ways, and to different extents, than they did previously.

As such, with regards to one's Sun Sign, and the astrological sign it finds itself in at the moment of your birth, I believe that, as we get closer and closer to the next sign, we start adopting qualities of that sign, and as we move further away from the prior sign, we start losing the qualities of that sign.

As such, if our Sun is right in the middle of a sign, we should embody that sign to the greatest exclusion of the signs before and after it.

By contrast, if we fall right on the border between two signs, we should embody both of those two signs equally.

And, if we fall just on one side more than the other, we should embody both signs strongly, but the predominant side more than the other.

That being said, I believe the Sun Sign is just a small part of one's natal chart, and is akin to the canvas on which the rest is painted.

That, and also this is just one possible interpretation of cusps, and I'd be willing to be open to other possible interpretations as well.

chana
10-08-2013, 06:37 AM
Nah, but I'm pretty decent at arithmetic, and your homeboy's violating the divide by 2, plus 7 rule...

Not a favorable sign...

Still together after 2 years :)
I guess our moon-neptune conjunction's magical bond has saved us.

Redbone
10-08-2013, 06:48 AM
What about people that don't match very well with their sign? I have a temper that can be sparked in the right circumstances (or in times of intense stress) but I don't find much of the Aries that fits very well for me. Adventurous, yes. Impulsive at times but this was more of a problem when I was young. Not ambitious, can lead but really dislike it and drop it at the first opportunity.

What do you think about ill-fitting signs?

Starry
10-09-2013, 07:49 PM
How I actually know exactly what this means is astounding...

And I don't know if that's so much me talking up my own game as me talking up yours...

There was another time I packed an enormous message to you in an inappropriately vague 'emoticon-sputtered-word' thing and I know I was floored at the time when your response back to me indicated you got the whole thing exactly as I had intended...as in 99.9% of those instances I'm just sitting around waiting to respond to the "wtf?" (I'm surprised I don't have this phrase saved so I can just do an insert text ->"Oh I'm just kidding around with you...what I meant was...")



Sun Conjunction Pluto 5.34 97
Sun Conjunction Ascendant 9.13 16
Pluto Conjunction Ascendant 3.39 25

^^The fact all of this is sitting on your ascendant...and not just any ascendant but a Scorpio ascendant...is huge as well. Well, the Sun's at a 9 degree orb so maybe you're not counting it but conjunctions are at least considered to be in aspect up to 10 degrees and up to 12-15 degrees in old school astro for luminaries so... 'it's on' as far as I'm concerned.




Sun conjunct Ascendant

These people make a strong personal impression. Others tend to see them as confident people, or as leaders of some sort. This is because they project strength. Of course, this strong impression can rub some people the wrong way. These people are noticeable and very aware of how they come across to others.

Sun rising people tend to believe that they are in control of their destiny. They usually don't believe in fate, and they'll take any pessimistic comments that come their way as personal challenges. In fact, this concept extends to other areas of life--they prefer to lead rather than follow, and are usually most comfortable in situations where they have the freedom to do so. They identify strongly with the image they project, and they usually prefer to be viewed as capable individuals. Children with this aspect may appear to be older than their years.


Pluto conjunct Ascendant

Pluto on the ascendant brings the god of the underworld’s energies out very strongly in the individual’s lives. The Ascendant/Descendant axis is one of relationship and Pluto rules taboo sex, so this combination is bound to breed love lives that feature anything from; fierce loyalty, deep love, protection, jealousy, secret affairs, possession, obsession, fetishes, bondage, S & M... Pluto’s life and loves will have a torturous feel about them, they wouldn’t feel alive if they didn’t.

The subject will embody the raw, dark Pluto energy very physically. Sexuality will be in your face and hard to avoid. They will enjoy flaunting the taboo side of this placement and relish in playing the “Bad girl” or “Bad boy”. The Pluto stare can be unnerving and used as a means to control and dominate. Indeed those dark eyes burn so deep into their targets soul that one can feel quite violated by them. Pluto here can be too intense for some people to handle, so Pluto Ascendant may find that people have a love/hate relationship with them and that they are giving the cold shoulder after a certain amount of time.


^^Well actually...I'm not quite sure what I was thinking 'cause those don't really sound much like you. At least I tried to look like I knew what I was talking about... and that's good enough for me.




See that pink right angle?

And how that red line connects the ends of those pink lines into a triangle?


There's an actual name for this configuration but I don't remember what it is... do you know?



These three aspects are not in harmony with one another. They are actually in serious conflict.

None of them seems to line up well with one another. In fact, they line up against one another.


Negative aspects are the only aspects that hold future potential.




If there was just one single aspect I'd have to point to, though, it would probably be this:

You tell me how much that does or does not sound like me.


They sound more like you than most e6 descriptions haha... "Oh I'm just kidding around with you...what I meant was..." I couldn't have created a [I]personal description for Zarathustra so fitting.

Here's an aspect of mine that I do not see as being very fitting of me but I'm attaching it just because it seems a little e7ny...haha



Sun Conjunct Venus

Sun conjunct Venus should make people express the qualities of Venus through their identity (Sun). So the keywords for Venus should be major themes in their lives, such as love, affection, beauty, socializing, art, fashion and poetry. This is certainly the case when looking at the lives of famous people with Sun in conjunction to Venus. There could be a tendency to sugar coat unpleasant realities and behave with indolence. They could also get sucked into indulgence, overspending on luxury goods. But generally these people are charismatic, charming, and lovers not fighters.


Astrology is dumb.



Related solely to astrology, or regarding anything whatsoever?


Now I absolutely need to know both answers...but originally I was 'speaking astrologically.'

Lady_X
10-09-2013, 08:27 PM
Hey I wanna know all that stuff!

chana
10-09-2013, 10:06 PM
I posted my birth chart to some astrology livejournal community in 2006 and saved it in my email. Somebody said this:


You have 3 planets exactly on angles.Shows very intense experience and
activity in life.Specially jupiter conjunct MC and Moon in sagittarius
extremely lucky and brings strong faith and optimism.Uranus-Neptune
square sun shows restlessness and depth.Mercury on desendant shows
mercurial physique and skill.Shallow breathing? asthma?smoker?Saturn
oppose Jupiter shows strong sense of right and wrong,bit judgemental but
larger view of life.Any political ambition?PLuto opposition venus shows
extremity in romance and relationship. Try not to waste excess emotions
in relationships. Performing arts,teaching and entertainment prominent in
chart.Check your mars declination.Mars at 1 degree cancer is very active
or very inactive.Totally wild. Very intense and interesting chart.

Totally wild :smoke:

senza tema
10-10-2013, 03:12 AM
What about people that don't match very well with their sign? I have a temper that can be sparked in the right circumstances (or in times of intense stress) but I don't find much of the Aries that fits very well for me. Adventurous, yes. Impulsive at times but this was more of a problem when I was young. Not ambitious, can lead but really dislike it and drop it at the first opportunity.

What do you think about ill-fitting signs?

People will probably tell you that this can be explained by other aspects of your birth chart. Like Zarathustra said, the sun sign is the canvas the rest of the stuff is painted on, so it's an essential part of the picture but by no means the picture itself.

I feel the same way as you do about my sun sign (Sagittarius) but other people tell me that it actually fits me very well; much better than I seem to grasp. I also have a hard time identifying with my moon sign (Gemini) ... it's actually quite strange to me that I have my sun, moon and rising all in mutable signs. I feel like I should be some sort of extreme P with that combination.

Jaguar
10-11-2013, 06:18 PM
There's an actual name for this configuration but I don't remember what it is... do you know?


T-square.

Starry
10-11-2013, 06:25 PM
T-square.

YES!!!!!! omg that was bothering me haha.

You're awesome thanks.

Mole
10-18-2013, 01:04 AM
Defending astrology is not foolish. In fact it is vital we understand astrology, for astrology is our ur-religion, that is, the religion that forms the basis of all other religions.

So to understand the history of religion, we first need to understand astrology, just click on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IadXi-_rcEg

krypton1te
02-24-2014, 06:35 AM
I don't believe in horoscopes, but I do believe that there is some kind of truth hidden in astrology. I recognize a lot of consistent patterns in it. To make it fun, I play games when I first meet people. I guess their astrology sign based on the evidence so: hypothesis > data > hypothesis > verification from the other. I've been right 95% of the time.

I usually sneak in ways to find out their birthday and any other useful information. It helps me see their motives/intentions... putting me at advantage to act according to how they moderately function.

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 12:12 AM
I have been looking for a better version of this talk for some years -- finally found it! (and only 13 views on youtube)

Absolutely recommend watching -- this interview is amazing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTQbVU9QorU

Tellenbach
04-04-2014, 01:18 AM
Once, I read descriptions of every sign and then picked out the ones that were most accurate or fit my personality (I covered up the signs so I didn't know which description went with which sign). There were several that fit me, but the one which was the most accurate was my sign. Could be just a coincidence though. I'm sure someone's done such a similar experiment before, but I'm too lazy to look it up.

Hard
04-04-2014, 02:40 AM
This is a particularly interesting topic to me considering my history with astrology, and subsequent leaving of it behind. In a lot of ways, I am not entirely sure what to make of it, but it's something I'd like to eventually figure out. Though at the moment it is not high on my priority list.

I was raised around astrology. My mother (being very New Age) got into it when I was just a toddler, and actually had my natal chart (http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/4821/mychartlandscape.jpg) done when I was just 8 years old. She explained it to me, and I was instantly interested. I was very interested in space as a child, so combined with the mystique of it all it pulled me right in. It wasn't until I was around 14 or so that I began to look into it on my own accord. Not entirely seriously at first but I still found it interesting. Being the nosy person that I am, I started collecting natal charts of my friends and eventually emmassed quite the library of it. When I was around 18 is when I started to look into it more seriously. Always having an interest, and finding the abstract symbolism of it so detailed and labeled it fit my thinking style, that I wanted to really understand it. I found great use of it for a long time, and in some ways obsessed over it.

I know astrology like the back of my hand, and I know it at a very very deep level. Having so much experience with it and exposure I picked it up well. For years I would interpret friends natal charts and solar returns just for fun. Part of me was also trying to convince/justify it to myself and others. It felt like it worked. I mean, my natal chart fits me like a freaking glove. So much so that when I looked into the details (and truly understood it) a few years ago I found it to be mildly alarming. To this day the accuracy of it beats all personality tests I have ever taking for the all encomposing nature of it.

Then something happened. A little over a year ago I began the process of becoming atheist. With it, all of my spiritual beliefs began to evaporate. Yet, I still held onto astrology. While the idea and principal of what governs it; that planets, planetoids, asteroids, etc. position in the sky relative to the earth somehow dictates and tells what our personality and life circumstances will be is complete hogwash in every way. I even felt that long long before I became atheist. That said... I could not deny that it worked. Or, at least seemed to. I considered if this was nothing more than a gigantic example of the forer effect. One that's so nuanced that it's near impossible to notice. In reality, I just didn't want to let astrology go. I felt this kinship with the symbolism. For years (and honestly I still do) I had wanted to get a tattoo of the symbol for pluto on my left sholder because of what it means to me. What I ended up doing, was ordering an astrological report.

It was 50$ after a discount, so rather expensive. Nevertheless, what it was was important; it's computer generated. An 18 page report too. I wanted to see the accuracy of it under this much detail. It eliminated the human element (and source of error that's near impossible to see through) that comes from someone interpreting and listening to feedback. I ordered it and it was emailed to me seconds later. I was astounded. For what it was; nothing more than a computer generated report based off my natal chart, was shockingly accurate. FAR more than one would expect based off satistics. It was not 100% accurate, but the bulk of it was very on point, and some of it was absolutely dead on, to the point where my jaw dropped. There's no way this is the forer effect at work. It's too nuanced. I told my mother about this, and convientely, she got one for herself to, and she sent me a copy. That is her. It fit her just as well as mine fit me. Two for two. Despite the small sample size, it sort of justified astrology for me. I would have loved to get these reports for several dozen people and see what I could gather from it all, but alas that's a lot of money.

Yet, I still let it go. With my new found prospective on atheism (I'm a scientist working on a PhD, this was inevitable), it just didn't seem right to hold onto. The basis of what astrology is, has no ground to stand on. It seems to work very well for me. However, studies find there to be little to no corralation (even though the studies are quite crude from what I have seen and miss the point of it all), and it just doesn't stand to scientific inquiry. It's subjected to the same rigors of logic that religion is, and does not get a special pass. Further, I had to ask myself an important question; is it worth believing in? After a lot of reflection, I came to the conclusion: no.

For all of the wonder and splendor that astrology gave me. For how justifying it felt. It gave me very little (if any) benefit beyond that. The biggest thing it gave me was a nifty label I could wear (cause I love labels a lot). Outside of that, it caused me stress. "Oh shit mercury in retrograde is coming up... oh shit jupiter is about to cross my yod...". I worried about all kinds of things that I had no control over. The amount of anxiety it managed to produce was rather high in hindsight. Further, in some cases it gave me the illusion of control over things I have no control over, which I see as borderline dangerous. Ultimately, its utility as something of help was found to be rather low, and if anything making things worse. So, despite the fact that there does indeed seem to be something to this. There really does. It's something best left alone for me. I don't gain anything from it that's truly beneficial to me that would offset the negatives. I have serious doubts science will ever be able to back up or support this, and until that day comes I will leave it be. It's nice to come back to for sentimental purposes (such as now), and I still enjoy talking about my natal chart to those who are interested since it defines me so well, but that's it.

So ultimately, there seems to be something to astrology. It can't be explained, but I can not deny I have had a number of things in my life show that it holds weight in some areas. However, it can't be proven in science, and the basis of it is hogwash. As a scientist, I can't in good conscious put stock into it, other than a curious novelty (much like I view MBTI). It also ultimately brought me more stress than anything. So, I have left it behind, and only come back to it now and again for a few brief moments of fun.

Vetani
04-04-2014, 05:07 AM
my mom told me i was conceived on her birthday.

i have no particular fondness for march though. i like my own birth month better (december).

My mother also had a little fun time when she got me. /cringe/

senza tema
04-04-2014, 05:19 AM
My mother also had a little fun time when she got me. /cringe/

lol i don't think any woman giving birth would object to some of that, but yeah, it's better not to have to hear about it from your parents, maybe. :laugh:

Urarienev
04-04-2014, 05:36 AM
I have been looking for a better version of this talk for some years -- finally found it! (and only 13 views on youtube)

Absolutely recommend watching -- this interview is amazing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTQbVU9QorU

Interesting.

I think about 40 minutes in he had expressed a more concrete way of looking at it.

I think it's more believable when he uses words like "archetype" and "tendency." I like that.


Anyways I think it's pretty undeniable that the cosmos has some type of influence over us. Not to say that I'm sold on the complete accuracy of astrology and all its specifics. But I find the denial of the possibility of some kind of correspondence, to be absurd.

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 05:42 AM
Anyways I think it's pretty undeniable that the cosmos has some type of influence over us. Not to say that I'm sold on the complete accuracy of astrology and all its specifics. But I find the denial of the possibility of some kind of correspondence, to be absurd.

Have you ever studied your own natal chart?

That, imo, if you are genuinely open to it, is where the rubber really hits the road.

Urarienev
04-04-2014, 05:59 AM
Have you ever studied your own natal chart?

That, imo, if you are genuinely open to it, is where the rubber really hits the road.

I have. It fits, for me.

The only thing is, it started to get complicated when I was trying to understand the big picture. I needed more context on things like houses and all the vocabulary, so i had to put the books down until I can get a little more energy invested in learning it.

What I was referring to, was more along the lines of how the "daily horoscopes" can be primitive, so to speak. That's why I like that word "tendency." And unfortunately these are one of the things about astrology that the general public is exposed to. So I can see why others can be skeptical.

Vetani
04-04-2014, 06:12 AM
lol i don't think any woman giving birth would object to some of that, but yeah, it's better not to have to hear about it from your parents, maybe. :laugh:

Like you, I was born in December.

I didn't think to join the two until someone else mentioned it.

I couldn't sleep for days after that.

senza tema
04-04-2014, 08:46 AM
Like you, I was born in December.

I didn't think to join the two until someone else mentioned it.

I couldn't sleep for days after that.

Hey, at least we have the best sign in the whole motherfucking zodiac. :happy2:

Vetani
04-04-2014, 08:49 AM
Hey, at least we have the best sign in the whole motherfucking zodiac. :happy2:

Sooooo Sagittarius?

senza tema
04-04-2014, 08:50 AM
Sooooo Sagittarius?

:rock:

Vetani
04-04-2014, 08:52 AM
:rock:

3111 posts congrats

Amargith
04-04-2014, 08:53 AM
:wubbie: Sags

Nicodemus
04-04-2014, 12:20 PM
Hey, at least we have the best sign in the whole motherfucking zodiac. :happy2:
Pah!

http://astrolibrary.org/images/capricorn5.jpg

senza tema
04-04-2014, 01:12 PM
Pah!

http://astrolibrary.org/images/capricorn5.jpg

Really? You would pick a GOAT over a centaur? REALLY?!

prplchknz
04-04-2014, 01:14 PM
I don't believe in astrology but I pretend to, to see what people say about it. I don't fit in with my supposed sign, and people always say that.

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 02:20 PM
I don't believe in astrology but I pretend to, to see what people say about it. I don't fit in with my supposed sign, and people always say that.

What's your Sun sign?

Moon sign? Rising?

And have you ever studied your natal chart?

prplchknz
04-04-2014, 02:23 PM
What's your Sun sign?

Moon sign? Rising?

And have you ever studied your natal chart?

my sun: scorpio
my moon: taurus
my risen: pisces

and my friend did my chart 5 years ago I'll try and see if I can find it and copy and paste it here

Basics—

You are generally perceptive and insightful. Regardless of what walk of life you inhabit, you often make statements about what is going on around you that attracts attention. Everything interests you, but particularly matters of a social or political nature. Whether you cull your knowledge from reading newspapers, watching tv or studying historical or sociological books, you tend to have strong opinions about how things work or don’t work as the case may be.

You often find yourself divided between a rational, common-sense apprehension of the world (atheistic or agnostic, respectively) on the one hand and traditional religious convictions on the other. Though likely a strict rationalist in your early life to middle years, you may at some point undergo a powerful conversion to spiritual or religious belief system. When undergoing this process of conversion you may not feel it necessary to abandon logic or reason, but rather make it work for yourself in finding ever-new support for your beliefs. You would however never be a zealot who believes blindly, but rather an optimist whose faith is based on seeing the world around you.

You are nonetheless convicted to your point of view. Though opposed to all forms of injustice, you may express your opinions in a dogmatic or authoritarian fashion. Thus it is important that you make a conscious effort to listen openly to the opposing side and whether they agree with what is said or not, take in what is useful to them.

Above all, you are a realist, and therefore for the most part are immune to false schemes and dubious arguments. You react strongly against any system you consider unworthy of your loyalty, whether it be a company, association, union or club. Cultivating modesty and simplicity is a key for them, as well as never forgetting your roots, no matter how far away you find yourself from home, literally or figuratively.

Sun in Scorpio, Moon in Taurus

You have a fixed course in life and seldom are torn by indecision. Your cheerful manner assures that you are cut out for social and business pursuits. Your temperament and persistence give you the ability to attract interesting ventures and to see them through to the end. You seek security, both financial and domestic, which appeals to your practical nature.

Your Taurean determination can point to a generally lethargic and somewhat static personality. Fortunately, the Scorpian love of show will counterbalance the slow and passive elements of your personality.

In love you fix your desire on your chosen partner with earthiness and great sexual passion. The key to a more harmonious self lies in cultivating forgiveness. You should also try to be less stubborn about your ideas and the people you deal with.



Ascendant in Pisces, Neptune in the Tenth House

At the time of your birth the zodiacal sign of Pisces was ascending in the horizon. Its ruler Neptune is located in the tenth house.

Usually, because of the dual nature of this sign, your experiences seem always to oscillate between two extremes. Emotionally, you may become confounded and perplexed when your soul is torn between opposite attractions. Your temperament is, nevertheless, kindly and able to appreciate the most subtle emotional experiences.

You are inclined to introverted living - reserved and retiring. You would do well to gear your life to occupations where your creativeness can be expressed freely.

Your life will be replete with flux and change, and yet this will not be a source of annoyance as you are most adaptable to situations.

Essentially, you are expansive, guided by intuition and emotion, and falling very easily into elated or depressive moods.

You have a natural ability to perceive from unknown sources where the mind does not intervene. Such an ability, unfortunately, is usually misunderstood or has little application in life. If you do become involved in art, however, there are very good prospects for success as a painter, musician, writer, or poet.

Your sexual life will be highly varied and intense. When you fall in love, you feel as if the limitations of your personality are dissolving and you are receptive to everything that exists.

You need a strong hand to protect you and lead you into the practical world. Generally, you have inclinations and tendencies for the following: professions dealing with occult matter or mediumships, religion, seafaring, acting, psychometry, clairvoyance, painting, poetry, mysticism, and espionage.

The ruler of your life events, Neptune, here, is an indication that you may find it hard to determine definite goals in your life. Most of your effort will be expanding climbing the social ladder by obscure and mystical methods, and it might be difficult to obtain material success.



Moon in the Second House

The Moon was found in the second house at the time of your birth. Your business dealings and means of income will consist of a multiplicity of activities where you must relate to many people. The position is generally good.

Occupationally, you are going to be inclined to pursue money through popular activities.

In any case, expect a fortune which holds variation and fluctuation. Try to orient your monetary dealings to the general public for you possess the ability to succeed when in touch with the popular masses.



Sun in the Eighth House

The Sun was found in your eighth house at the time of birth. This inclines your individuality to be oriented, in one way or another, to the deeper sides of life. Your sexual feelings are long-lasting, intense, and vital. Your inner self seems attracted to unusual matters related to the termination of life-death and its mysteries.

Traditional astrology indicates that near your middle age a crisis will rear its head in your life. If this period is successfully spanned you can expect a prolonged life with a gradual heightening vitality.

Financially, there are definite chances for money inherited from either your partner or from another relative.



Venus in the Eighth House

Venus was found in your eighth house at the time of birth. This is a favorable position regarding the possibilities of financial gain through businesses owned by your partner or by associates.

Psychologically, you are going to find many harmonious conditions in your sexual relationships.

If your inner growth is such that your vital energies are oriented toward spiritual rather than material pleasures, then you will arrive at gratification and happiness through inquiry into the mysteries of life and death.

You should have some excellent opportunities for progress in your financial and social condition during your middle age or when you finally stabilize your life through marriage or any other type of close relationship.



Saturn in the Ninth House

Saturn was found in the ninth house at the time of birth. This indicates that your concern over the impermanence of all things will urge you to restrict your personality traits and assume a position of caution and planning before pursuing any important matter.

In a practical sense, your attitude to all higher intellectual functions is that of a studious, serious, and meditative person. You must, however, be attentive to the possible presence of several challenging elements in your intellectual make-up such as depression, fear, and severity.



Love, Flirtation, Sex—

Ascendant in Pisces

You are highly empathic, and your physical involvement with a lover is directly geared to your emotional and psychic involvement.

Once you have found the partner you want, you are the most willing and supple lover, but you must take care that your own personality does not get lost in the process. It's better not to offer that temptation; be gentle and giving, but retain your individuality and independence.

In general, you will be happiest with a lover whose sexual consciousness is rather highly developed.



Sun in Scorpio

Of all the Sun signs, yours is the one most closely identified with sexuality. This is because you feel life intensely and need to express your passions in all that you do.

You will be very tempted to use your sexual magnetism to gain material or psychological advantage over your lover. For this reason you may attract less sophisticated partners whose naivete allows you to be in command.

You usually are very clear about what you desire, and you know it is worth waiting a long time to get what will satisfy you.

You tend to immerse yourself in an affair, then you are changed by it and finally become completely detached from it. Once an affair is over, it is finished for you forever. However, neither you nor your partner will be the same as when you met.



Sun in the Eighth House

This position gives sexuality a very physical form and makes tangible intimacy very important to you.

Because of your talent for intuition, you may have considerable subliminal power over others, so that you can control them without their knowledge. You must always be careful to use this "animal magnetism," which may be more or less psychic, in ways that do not take undue advantage of your partner or that get you into needless power games.

You may be attracted to a lover who is considerably older or younger than yourself, a situation in which one partner is a good deal more experienced and teaches the other. But no matter who you are involved with, intensity is your key word.



Moon in Taurus

You are a person of great emotional substance, and you provide an excellent shoulder for an upset lover to cry on. You are not easily or quickly angered, but once your ire is aroused, you are a formidable antagonist with a long memory for grievances.

You do not rush into a love affair, preferring to build it in careful stages.

Your preference is for straightforward simplicity in a relationship. You want your partner to tell you the truth at all times so you know right where you stand. In return, you are scrupulously honest with your lover, even when it hurts.

In a relationship you are a friend and lover your partner can always depend on, even in difficult times. You don't commit yourself lightly, and when you give your word, you stand by it, particularly a commitment given in love.



Moon in the Second House

Good physical health and financial well-being are necessary to your emotional security, and you are not likely to be happy in a money-starved love affair, no matter how romantic.

You may demand expensive presents or love tokens from a partner to assuage problems between you. Although it is perfectly legitimate to treasure gifts of love for their emotional value, this can be dangerous, because you are dodging problems whose roots lie elsewhere.

Your basic desire for honesty and integrity in a relationship should lead you around this obstacle, for you are guided by a strong set of fundamental values.



Venus in Scorpio

You have a very deep, gut-level style in love, and when you set your sights on someone, you don't give up until you get what you want.

Indeed, it is extremity of enjoyment rather than moderation that is the key to your pleasure.

Whatever your method, your enjoyment will be greatest if sexuality takes on the aspect of tremendous power, an uncontrollable flood in which both of you are caught up. This is ideal for the actual sexual experience, but in everyday life you should take great care to let control return to both of you individually, so that the basic equality between you is not lost.



Venus in the Eighth House

You strive for relationships that are very intense and therefore quite involved. You may be drawn toward people who seem mysterious or challenging in some way, which can have both good and bad results.

You find little satisfaction in the intellectual trappings of love, and you require plenty of physical attention within a relationship. Therefore, you are happiest with a demonstrative lover who pays attention to your physical as well as your emotional needs.

The more you can lose yourself in a love affair, particularly in its sexual aspects, the more satisfying it will be. Just try not to let your life outside of the relationship become unbalanced by it.



Mars in Aquarius

Your style of expression is multifaceted, and you focus on exploring a number of forms of fulfillment rather than developing one particular area. Ideally, you should find a partner who wants to be as wide-ranging as you are, combining variety with truly satisfying intimacy.

You go out of your way to discover and fulfill all your lover's fantasies. But be sure to avoid jealous lovers, for you must remain free to express your personality, even if you do not choose to exercise that freedom.



Mars in the Twelfth House

You have a needling desire to realize your deepest and most out-of-the-way motivations, both sexual and otherwise. For this reason you are willing to give up much in a relationship in order to explore the unknown.

Do not wander into strange territory without carefully finding out about it first, for your tendency to act rashly could lead you into trouble.

If you are careful, the rewards will be well worth the risks, and the fulfillment you experience will be special and unique to you.

Forecast—

Pluto trine Moon: News from the psyche

End of January 2009 until end of November 2010: This is a period of profound emotional experiences, which should be extremely positive and creative for your overall growth and evolution. You are concerned with making your life more profound and emotionally rewarding. No longer satisfied with living at the surface, you want to feel in your heart everything that until now you have understood only with your mind. At the same time your mental understanding will become more profound because it will be based on intuition as well as on logic. This deepening experience of life will affect your relationships as well. In fact it may very well bring about an important new relationship, which may or may not be sexual. In any case you can be sure it will be emotionally profound and a positive learning experience in which you will discover a great deal about your inner psyche.

Even your existing relationships will now have a great deal more emotional content than they have had and will become the source of much self-discovery. Again you need have little fear for the stability of these relationships.

The most important discovery you will make about yourself during this time concerns the workings of your subconscious patterns, the unconscious habits and patterns that you carry from your past. This is an excellent time for psychotherapy or other consciousness- expanding therapies. It is not that you need them necessarily, but they would be extremely effective at this time.

In your personal and home life you will have a chance to make positive changes. You can make repairs, construct new buildings and generally expand your activities. Your home life should be deeper and more emotionally rewarding now than at other times. This is often a good time for buying real estate, especially if you plan to live on it.



Pluto conjunction Neptune: Inward transformation

Beginning of March 2009 until beginning of October 2011: This influence signifies a period of very deep inward transformation that will be reflected in changed ideals, goals and many other aspects of your world view. You may also work harder than ever to bring about in reality an ideal that you have held for years. However, you will have to give up a great deal to accomplish this, and you will not receive much ego- reinforcement at the time, even if you are successful.

You will find it necessary to question very deeply many beliefs you have held as a matter of course all your life. You may become disoriented as you discover that you have been living under illusions. But at least you will not be alone, for this is one of the influences that affect everyone in one age group at about the same time. In fact, the need to change your ideals may come through your peer group. It would be a good idea to discuss this with someone who is much older or younger and who is not suffering the effects of this influence, in order to get a better perspective on what is happening to you. If you begin psychotherapy now, which is quite possible, you should not choose a therapist of your own age. While he or she might understand you, he cannot give you a different perspective.

Many elements of your life - relationships, job situations, places - may pass away now, but this is only a reflection of the profound changes taking place within you. After this period is over you may find it hard to recognize the person you were before.

Whatever you choose to do, it would be a good idea to study a subject that will give you greater understanding about your life. Astrology, the occult, metaphysics or even depth psychology might serve this purpose. But don't get lost in abstractions: make sure that what you learn has real consequences in your everyday life, because you have great needs there that should be met. Also your studies should give you very deep understanding. Nothing superficial would help you at this time.



Saturn square Neptune: Keep it simple

Beginning of December 2009 until beginning of September 2010: This influence signifies a time of great uncertainty and possible confusion. Your objectives are unclear, and you may feel incapable of coping with even the ordinary details of your everyday life. One of the best ways to cope with this influence is to make your everyday life as simple as possible, because you are so easily overwhelmed at this time.

This is not a time of robust confidence. You are questioning almost every aspect of your life, particularly your goals and ambitions, your ability to attain them and even whether you are worthy of attaining them.

At the same time you may feel that your universe is constructed in such a way that you cannot ever live up to your ideals. Disappointment, discouragement and pessimism are all likely effects of this influence. The danger is that this kind of negative thinking may actually undermine your effectiveness in your work or other important activities. Feeling insecure often creates circumstances in which you really are insecure. Do not take things so seriously! Your negative state of mind is probably not justified by the facts of your life. This is just one of those times when your spirits seem to sag.

You should try to hang on without making any permanent decisions or commitments on the basis of your current pessimistic views. In a short time, you will understand that right now your view of reality is changing in a way that ultimately should be very constructive, although it does not seem so now. About two years from now, you will be able to make constructive changes in your life based upon your new understanding. This is probably not the best time to make changes.



Jupiter conjunction Jupiter: Wonderful opportunities

10 March 2010 until 18 March 2010: This influence indicates the beginning of a new cycle of growth and progress. However, it is often the focus of exaggerated expectations. You may expect sudden windfalls, great wealth or luck, and all kinds of wonderful opportunities. And these things do happen sometimes with this influence, but most people should expect more subtle, but equally useful effects.

Events now, such as meetings with persons or even changes in your psyche, open the way for you to become wiser and more mature and to have a broader understanding of the world. At this time you will reach out consciously and unconsciously and ask more of the world, but at the same time you are willing to give more to the world.

This influence can make you feel either more demanding or more giving toward others, but you are not likely to get much out of it if you think only of what you can get. The law of conservation of energy in the universe says that you can transform the energies in your life from one form to another, but you cannot create them out of nothing. This influence represents a time when you should see whether you are doing that in your life.

Concretely, you can expect persons who are good for you to come into your life. Or circumstances will arise that give you increased freedom or an opportunity to do something that you have never done before. Educational opportunities may come to you at this time, or a chance to travel. Sometimes this influence does in fact bring about financial advantage, but you should not sit around passively waiting for it to happen.



Jupiter conjunction Ascendant: Beware of airs

6 April 2010 until 15 April 2010: During this period you feel good and project warm positive energies out into the world. This in turn affects your relationships very positively and enables you to encounter people who can be good for you precisely because you are good for them. In all personal and professional transactions with others you will give and receive in equal measure.

Personal relationships expand under this influence. If you have been living in a relatively small circle of friends and acquaintances, you will expand your circle and meet people whom you wouldn't ordinarily, possibly including the rich and famous or people in power. Just be careful that you don't become involved with these people for superficial reasons; make sure that you can grow through them. The fact that a person is socially significant may not have any relevance to your relationship.

The basis for all this is that in a very real sense you are growing and taking more and more of the outer world into your personal sphere. You are trying to include more of the world in your experience. Properly handled, this process can make you a much wiser and more mature individual. Your view of life should expand, and you should become increasingly tolerant of the wide differences among people in the world. You have the opportunity to become a woman of the world to a much greater extent.

At this time, you should be careful not to assume arrogant airs or to think that you are better than you are. You are probably a fine person, but that does not mean that you are necessarily better than everyone else. Think in terms of your personal growth, not in terms of your status with respect to others.



Jupiter trine Sun: A sense of humor

18 April 2010 until 28 April 2010: This is such a pleasant influence that you may be inclined to sit back, enjoy it and do nothing. However, this is really a very important time in your life because you can reach out into new areas of life and have new and rewarding experiences. Your creative potential is enormous at this time, and you can very easily accomplish a great deal that would be difficult at other times. Your inner energies are strong, and you are full of self-confidence and the feeling that you can do anything.

This influence usually indicates good health and a feeling of well-being, although you may be inclined to put on weight if you are not careful. You may not feel inclined toward physical activity, but it would be a good idea to get some exercise. Make a particular effort to be outdoors. Hiking is a very beneficial activity at this time.

If you are inclined to physical activity, especially athletics, don't take foolish risks through overconfidence. This influence tends to make you overestimate your energies.

This is an excellent time for all financial matters. You will feel like making your surroundings appear more elegant, and you may spend quite a lot of money doing so. This is perfectly fine, and you should think positively in all ways, but don't let this concern with material acquisition blind you to some very real possibilities for inner growth.

Travel, either physically or mentally, often accompanies this influence. Take this time to broaden your understanding of the world around you. You have a strong interest in ideas that are different from what you normally know and encounter, and you are much more tolerant of different ways of living. Even people's usually irritating traits do not bother you at this time. Also your sense of humor is much greater than usual, and you can appreciate the dance of life in all its glory.

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 02:59 PM
my sun: scorpio
my moon: taurus
my risen: pisces

Why do you think this combination doesn't make sense for you?


and my friend did my chart 5 years ago I'll try and see if I can find it and copy and paste it here

Basics—

You are generally perceptive and insightful. Regardless of what walk of life you inhabit, you often make statements about what is going on around you that attracts attention. Everything interests you, but particularly matters of a social or political nature. Whether you cull your knowledge from reading newspapers, watching tv or studying historical or sociological books, you tend to have strong opinions about how things work or don’t work as the case may be.

You often find yourself divided between a rational, common-sense apprehension of the world (atheistic or agnostic, respectively) on the one hand and traditional religious convictions on the other. Though likely a strict rationalist in your early life to middle years, you may at some point undergo a powerful conversion to spiritual or religious belief system. When undergoing this process of conversion you may... [excised for character limit]

You are nonetheless convicted to your point of view. Though opposed to all forms of injustice, you may express your opinions in a dogmatic or authoritarian fashion. Thus it is important that you make a conscious effort to listen openly to the opposing side and whether they agree with what is said or not, take in what is useful to them.

Above all, you are a realist, and therefore for the most part are immune to false schemes and dubious arguments. You react strongly against any system you consider unworthy of your loyalty, whether it be a company, association, union or club. Cultivating modesty and simplicity is a key for them, as well as never forgetting your roots, no matter how far away you find yourself from home, literally or figuratively.

Sun in Scorpio, Moon in Taurus

You have a fixed course in life and seldom are torn by indecision. Your cheerful manner assures that you are cut out for social and business pursuits. Your temperament and persistence give you the ability to attract interesting ventures and to see them through to the end. You seek security, both financial and domestic, which appeals to your practical nature.

Your Taurean determination can point to a generally lethargic and somewhat static personality. Fortunately, the Scorpian love of show will counterbalance the slow and passive elements of your personality.

In love you fix your desire on your chosen partner with earthiness and great sexual passion. The key to a more harmonious self lies in cultivating forgiveness. You should also try to be less stubborn about your ideas and the people you deal with.



Ascendant in Pisces, Neptune in the Tenth House

At the time of your birth the zodiacal sign of Pisces was ascending in the horizon. Its ruler Neptune is located in the tenth house.

Usually, because of the dual nature of this sign, your experiences seem always to oscillate between two extremes. Emotionally, you may become confounded and perplexed when your soul is torn between opposite attractions. Your temperament is, nevertheless, kindly and able to appreciate the most subtle emotional experiences.

You are inclined to introverted living - reserved and retiring. You would do well to gear your life to occupations where your creativeness can be expressed freely.

Your life will be replete with flux and change, and yet this will not be a source of annoyance as you are most adaptable to situations.

Essentially, you are expansive, guided by intuition and emotion, and falling very easily into elated or depressive moods.

You have a natural ability to perceive from unknown sources where the mind does not intervene. Such an ability, unfortunately, is usually misunderstood or has little application in life. If you do become involved in art, however, there are very good prospects for success as a painter, musician, writer, or poet.

Your sexual life will be highly varied and intense. When you fall in love, you feel as if the limitations of your personality are dissolving and you are receptive to everything that exists.

You need a strong hand to protect you and lead you into the practical world. Generally, you have inclinations and tendencies for the following: professions dealing with occult matter or mediumships, religion, seafaring, acting, psychometry, clairvoyance, painting, poetry, mysticism, and espionage.

The ruler of your life events, Neptune, here, is an indication that you may find it hard to determine definite goals in your life. Most of your effort will be expanding climbing the social ladder by obscure and mystical methods, and it might be difficult to obtain material success.



Moon in the Second House

The Moon was found in the second house at the time of your birth. Your business dealings and means of income will consist of a multiplicity of activities where you must relate to many people. The position is generally good.

Occupationally, you are going to be inclined to pursue money through popular activities.

In any case, expect a fortune which holds variation and fluctuation. Try to orient your monetary dealings to the general public for you possess the ability to succeed when in touch with the popular masses.



Sun in the Eighth House

The Sun was found in your eighth house at the time of birth. This inclines your individuality to be oriented, in one way or another, to the deeper sides of life. Your sexual feelings are long-lasting, intense, and vital. Your inner self seems attracted to unusual matters related to the termination of life-death and its mysteries.

Traditional astrology indicates that near your middle age a crisis will rear its head in your life. If this period is successfully spanned you can expect a prolonged life with a gradual heightening vitality.

Financially, there are definite chances for money inherited from either your partner or from another relative.



Venus in the Eighth House

Venus was found in your eighth house at the time of birth. This is a favorable position regarding the possibilities of financial gain through businesses owned by your partner or by associates.

Psychologically, you are going to find many harmonious conditions in your sexual relationships.

If your inner growth is such that your vital energies are oriented toward spiritual rather than material pleasures, then you will arrive at gratification and happiness through inquiry into the mysteries of life and death.

You should have some excellent opportunities for progress in your financial and social condition during your middle age or when you finally stabilize your life through marriage or any other type of close relationship.



Saturn in the Ninth House

Saturn was found in the ninth house at the time of birth. This indicates that your concern over the impermanence of all things will urge you to restrict your personality traits and assume a position of caution and planning before pursuing any important matter.

In a practical sense, your attitude to all higher intellectual functions is that of a studious, serious, and meditative person. You must, however, be attentive to the possible presence of several challenging elements in your intellectual make-up such as depression, fear, and severity.



Love, Flirtation, Sex—

Ascendant in Pisces

You are highly empathic, and your physical involvement with a lover is directly geared to your emotional and psychic involvement.

Once you have found the partner you want, you are the most willing and supple lover, but you must take care that your own personality does not get lost in the process. It's better not to offer that temptation; be gentle and giving, but retain your individuality and independence.

In general, you will be happiest with a lover whose sexual consciousness is rather highly developed.



Sun in Scorpio

Of all the Sun signs, yours is the one most closely identified with sexuality. This is because you feel life intensely and need to express your passions in all that you do.

You will be very tempted to use your sexual magnetism to gain material or psychological advantage over your lover. For this reason you may attract less sophisticated partners whose naivete allows you to be in command.

You usually are very clear about what you desire, and you know it is worth waiting a long time to get what will satisfy you.

You tend to immerse yourself in an affair, then you are changed by it and finally become completely detached from it. Once an affair is over, it is finished for you forever. However, neither you nor your partner will be the same as when you met.



Sun in the Eighth House

This position gives sexuality a very physical form and makes tangible intimacy very important to you.

Because of your talent for intuition, you may have considerable subliminal power over others, so that you can control them without their knowledge. You must always be careful to use this "animal magnetism," which may be more or less psychic, in ways that do not take undue advantage of your partner or that get you into needless power games.

You may be attracted to a lover who is considerably older or younger than yourself, a situation in which one partner is a good deal more experienced and teaches the other. But no matter who you are involved with, intensity is your key word.



Moon in Taurus

You are a person of great emotional substance, and you provide an excellent shoulder for an upset lover to cry on. You are not easily or quickly angered, but once your ire is aroused, you are a formidable antagonist with a long memory for grievances.

You do not rush into a love affair, preferring to build it in careful stages.

Your preference is for straightforward simplicity in a relationship. You want your partner to tell you the truth at all times so you know right where you stand. In return, you are scrupulously honest with your lover, even when it hurts.

In a relationship you are a friend and lover your partner can always depend on, even in difficult times. You don't commit yourself lightly, and when you give your word, you stand by it, particularly a commitment given in love.



Moon in the Second House

Good physical health and financial well-being are necessary to your emotional security, and you are not likely to be happy in a money-starved love affair, no matter how romantic.

You may demand expensive presents or love tokens from a partner to assuage problems between you. Although it is perfectly legitimate to treasure gifts of love for their emotional value, this can be dangerous, because you are dodging problems whose roots lie elsewhere.

Your basic desire for honesty and integrity in a relationship should lead you around this obstacle, for you are guided by a strong set of fundamental values.



Venus in Scorpio

You have a very deep, gut-level style in love, and when you set your sights on someone, you don't give up until you get what you want.

Indeed, it is extremity of enjoyment rather than moderation that is the key to your pleasure.

Whatever your method, your enjoyment will be greatest if sexuality takes on the aspect of tremendous power, an uncontrollable flood in which both of you are caught up. This is ideal for the actual sexual experience, but in everyday life you should take great care to let control return to both of you individually, so that the basic equality between you is not lost.



Venus in the Eighth House

You strive for relationships that are very intense and therefore quite involved. You may be drawn toward people who seem mysterious or challenging in some way, which can have both good and bad results.

You find little satisfaction in the intellectual trappings of love, and you require plenty of physical attention within a relationship. Therefore, you are happiest with a demonstrative lover who pays attention to your physical as well as your emotional needs.

The more you can lose yourself in a love affair, particularly in its sexual aspects, the more satisfying it will be. Just try not to let your life outside of the relationship become unbalanced by it.



Mars in Aquarius

Your style of expression is multifaceted, and you focus on exploring a number of forms of fulfillment rather than developing one particular area. Ideally, you should find a partner who wants to be as wide-ranging as you are, combining variety with truly satisfying intimacy.

You go out of your way to discover and fulfill all your lover's fantasies. But be sure to avoid jealous lovers, for you must remain free to express your personality, even if you do not choose to exercise that freedom.



Mars in the Twelfth House

You have a needling desire to realize your deepest and most out-of-the-way motivations, both sexual and otherwise. For this reason you are willing to give up much in a relationship in order to explore the unknown.

Do not wander into strange territory without carefully finding out about it first, for your tendency to act rashly could lead you into trouble.

If you are careful, the rewards will be well worth the risks, and the fulfillment you experience will be special and unique to you.

Forecast—

Pluto trine Moon: News from the psyche

End of January 2009 until end of November 2010: This is a period of profound emotional experiences, which should be extremely positive and creative for your overall growth and evolution. You are concerned with making your life more profound and emotionally rewarding. No longer satisfied with living at the surface, you want to feel in your heart everything that until now you have understood only with your mind. At the same time your mental understanding will become more profound because it will be based on intuition as well as on logic. This deepening experience of life will affect your relationships as well. In fact it may very well bring about an important new relationship, which may or may not be sexual. In any case you can be sure it will be emotionally profound and a positive learning experience in which you will discover a great deal about your inner psyche.

Even your existing relationships will now have a great deal more emotional content than they have had and will become the source of much self-discovery. Again you need have little fear for the stability of these relationships.

The most important discovery you will make about yourself during this time concerns the workings of your subconscious patterns, the unconscious habits and patterns that you carry from your past. This is an excellent time for psychotherapy or other consciousness- expanding therapies. It is not that you need them necessarily, but they would be extremely effective at this time.

In your personal and home life you will have a chance to make positive changes. You can make repairs, construct new buildings and generally expand your activities. Your home life should be deeper and more emotionally rewarding now than at other times. This is often a good time for buying real estate, especially if you plan to live on it.



Pluto conjunction Neptune: Inward transformation

Beginning of March 2009 until beginning of October 2011: This influence signifies a period of very deep inward transformation that will be reflected in changed ideals, goals and many other aspects of your world view. You may also work harder than ever to bring about in reality an ideal that you have held for years. However, you will have to give up a great deal to accomplish this, and you will not receive much ego- reinforcement at the time, even if you are successful.

You will find it necessary to question very deeply many beliefs you have held as a matter of course all your life. You may become disoriented as you discover that you have been living under illusions. But at least you will not be alone, for this is one of the influences that affect everyone in one age group at about the same time. In fact, the need to change your ideals may come through your peer group. It would be a good idea to discuss this with someone who is much older or younger and who is not suffering the effects of this influence, in order to get a better perspective on what is happening to you. If you begin psychotherapy now, which is quite possible, you should not choose a therapist of your own age. While he or she might understand you, he cannot give you a different perspective.

Many elements of your life - relationships, job situations, places - may pass away now, but this is only a reflection of the profound changes taking place within you. After this period is over you may find it hard to recognize the person you were before.

Whatever you choose to do, it would be a good idea to study a subject that will give you greater understanding about your life. Astrology, the occult, metaphysics or even depth psychology might serve this purpose. But don't get lost in abstractions: make sure that what you learn has real consequences in your everyday life, because you have great needs there that should be met. Also your studies should give you very deep understanding. Nothing superficial would help you at this time.



Saturn square Neptune: Keep it simple

Beginning of December 2009 until beginning of September 2010: This influence signifies a time of great uncertainty and possible confusion. Your objectives are unclear, and you may feel incapable of coping with even the ordinary details of your everyday life. One of the best ways to cope with this influence is to make your everyday life as simple as possible, because you are so easily overwhelmed at this time.

This is not a time of robust confidence. You are questioning almost every aspect of your life, particularly your goals and ambitions, your ability to attain them and even whether you are worthy of attaining them.

At the same time you may feel that your universe is constructed in such a way that you cannot ever live up to your ideals. Disappointment, discouragement and pessimism are all likely effects of this influence. The danger is that this kind of negative thinking may actually undermine your effectiveness in your work or other important activities. Feeling insecure often creates circumstances in which you really are insecure. Do not take things so seriously! Your negative state of mind is probably not justified by the facts of your life. This is just one of those times when your spirits seem to sag.

You should try to hang on without making any permanent decisions or commitments on the basis of your current pessimistic views. In a short time, you will understand that right now your view of reality is changing in a way that ultimately should be very constructive, although it does not seem so now. About two years from now, you will be able to make constructive changes in your life based upon your new understanding. This is probably not the best time to make changes.



Jupiter conjunction Jupiter: Wonderful opportunities

10 March 2010 until 18 March 2010: This influence indicates the beginning of a new cycle of growth and progress. However, it is often the focus of exaggerated expectations. You may expect sudden windfalls, great wealth or luck, and all kinds of wonderful opportunities. And these things do happen sometimes with this influence, but most people should expect more subtle, but equally useful effects.

Events now, such as meetings with persons or even changes in your psyche, open the way for you to become wiser and more mature and to have a broader understanding of the world. At this time you will reach out consciously and unconsciously and ask more of the world, but at the same time you are willing to give more to the world.

This influence can make you feel either more demanding or more giving toward others, but you are not likely to get much out of it if you think only of what you can get. The law of conservation of energy in the universe says that you can transform the energies in your life from one form to another, but you cannot create them out of nothing. This influence represents a time when you should see whether you are doing that in your life.

Concretely, you can expect persons who are good for you to come into your life. Or circumstances will arise that give you increased freedom or an opportunity to do something that you have never done before. Educational opportunities may come to you at this time, or a chance to travel. Sometimes this influence does in fact bring about financial advantage, but you should not sit around passively waiting for it to happen.



Jupiter conjunction Ascendant: Beware of airs

6 April 2010 until 15 April 2010: During this period you feel good and project warm positive energies out into the world. This in turn affects your relationships very positively and enables you to encounter people who can be good for you precisely because you are good for them. In all personal and professional transactions with others you will give and receive in equal measure.

Personal relationships expand under this influence. If you have been living in a relatively small circle of friends and acquaintances, you will expand your circle and meet people whom you wouldn't ordinarily, possibly including the rich and famous or people in power. Just be careful that you don't become involved with these people for superficial reasons; make sure that you can grow through them. The fact that a person is socially significant may not have any relevance to your relationship.

The basis for all this is that in a very real sense you are growing and taking more and more of the outer world into your personal sphere. You are trying to include more of the world in your experience. Properly handled, this process can make you a much wiser and more mature individual. Your view of life should expand, and you should become increasingly tolerant of the wide differences among people in the world. You have the opportunity to become a woman of the world to a much greater extent.

At this time, you should be careful not to assume arrogant airs or to think that you are better than you are. You are probably a fine person, but that does not mean that you are necessarily better than everyone else. Think in terms of your personal growth, not in terms of your status with respect to others.



Jupiter trine Sun: A sense of humor

18 April 2010 until 28 April 2010: This is such a pleasant influence that you may be inclined to sit back, enjoy it and do nothing. However, this is really a very important time in your life because you can reach out into new areas of life and have new and rewarding experiences. Your creative potential is enormous at this time, and you can very easily accomplish a great deal that would be difficult at other times. Your inner energies are strong, and you are full of self-confidence and the feeling that you can do anything.

This influence usually indicates good health and a feeling of well-being, although you may be inclined to put on weight if you are not careful. You may not feel inclined toward physical activity, but it would be a good idea to get some exercise. Make a particular effort to be outdoors. Hiking is a very beneficial activity at this time.

If you are inclined to physical activity, especially athletics, don't take foolish risks through overconfidence. This influence tends to make you overestimate your energies.

This is an excellent time for all financial matters. You will feel like making your surroundings appear more elegant, and you may spend quite a lot of money doing so. This is perfectly fine, and you should think positively in all ways, but don't let this concern with material acquisition blind you to some very real possibilities for inner growth.

Travel, either physically or mentally, often accompanies this influence. Take this time to broaden your understanding of the world around you. You have a strong interest in ideas that are different from what you normally know and encounter, and you are much more tolerant of different ways of living. Even people's usually irritating traits do not bother you at this time. Also your sense of humor is much greater than usual, and you can appreciate the dance of life in all its glory.



I'm not a big fan of this reading.

It doesn't even have your planetary aspects, which, imo, are the most intriguing and important parts of a person's chart.

Haven't read it in detail, so won't speak to the accuracy of the interpretation, but I'd run your chart at one of these sites:
astromatrix.org (http://astromatrix.org)
cafeastrology.com (http://cafeastrology.com)

prplchknz
04-04-2014, 03:06 PM
Why do you think this combination doesn't make sense for you?



I'm not a big fan of this reading.

It doesn't even have your planetary aspects, which, imo, are the most intriguing and important parts of a person's chart.

Haven't read it in detail, so won't speak to the accuracy of the interpretation, but I'd run your chart at one of these sites:
astromatrix.org
cafeastrology.com

It's not that it doesn't make sense, I just think it's too much forer effect for my tastes

Hard
04-04-2014, 03:06 PM
Haven't read it in detail, so won't speak to the accuracy of the interpretation, but I'd run your chart at one of these sites:
astromatrix.org
cafeastrology.com

Do you not like astro.com? Maybe its cause I am used to it but I always found them the easiest to work with and their charts the most asthetically pleasing.

senza tema
04-04-2014, 03:12 PM
OMG, someone do mine.

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 03:21 PM
It's not that it doesn't make sense, I just think it's too much forer effect for my tastes

It is certainly prone to the forer effect.

But that accusation could (and would) be levied against it, even if it's true.

THAT is the (difficult) task that astrology challenges us to take up: are your critical thinking, interpretive, and reading skills well cultivated enough such that you can give your natal chart a truly open-minded reading, while not simply falling victim to the forer effect (because there's no way, while doing the reading, if one is genuinely open-minded while doing it, that one will know whether astrology is indeed [correspondentially] true or not).


Do you not like astro.com? Maybe its cause I am used to it but I always found them the easiest to work with and their charts the most asthetically pleasing.

Their free chart is very limited.

These two sites offer very good free charts.

I have bought charts from astro.com, astrology.com, and some others.

What I do not like about those I have bought from astro.com (Liz Greene's relationship profile, et al) is that they do not tell you what aspects or placements they are using to arrive at their interpretation, and that is annoying.


OMG, someone do mine.

I...

Oy vey...

:thinking:

Nicodemus
04-04-2014, 03:22 PM
astromatrix.org
Just used this.


You are constantly in motion, but sometimes it is motion without meaning. Lacking self-discipline, you take daring and unnecessary risks when challenged. Your supporters regard you as courageous, but your enemies consider you 'pushy' and arrogant. However, you are not moved by either opinion, because you want most of all for people to recognize your superiority and give you the breathing room you need. You constantly have to see that people are in awe of your aggressive superiority, because inside you are not really that sure of yourself. The image you present hides a persistent inferiority complex. You probably win your arguments by making the most noise and wearing out your opponents with unceasing harassment. [...] A very physical person, you tend to brush aside any talk of compromise or concession as tactics fit only for the weak and spineless. It is almost impossible to have a simple, friendly talk with you; when you think you are losing control and your position is weakening, you become angry and may resort to violence.
Totally me...

The best thing about my birth chart, though, is how blatantly the different descriptions contradict each other. Clearly hoping to catch me one way or the other, it is somewhat impressive how seldom they do hit the nail.

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 03:29 PM
Totally me...

What aspect or placement was that?


The best thing about my birth chart, though, is how blatantly the different descriptions contradict each other.

Do you have not a single contradictory element in your being?

Are you not ever one way in certain situations, but another seemingly contradictory way in others?


Clearly hoping to catch me one way or the other, it is somewhat impressive how seldom they do hit the nail.

There is not really any hoping.

It's a computer.

It spits all the information out according to its formula.

The formula is indeed based on the positions of the astral bodies, signs, and houses, are the moment and location of your birth.

And the interpretations do actually fit according to the archetypes and underpinning logic of astrology.

Different interpretations (by different authors) may word things a bit differently, or accentuate certain elements of the archetypes more or less than others, but the point is to not merely go word by word, in an extremely literal fashion, through each aspect/position's interpretation, but to come to understand the archetypal principles towards which each interpretation is pointing.

The output of a computer, while phenomenal from an efficiency standpoint, is inherently mechanical, and its limitations must be understood. And one must take this into account when reading a computer-generated profile, if one ever hopes to give their chart a fair, open-minded reading.

Amargith
04-04-2014, 03:38 PM
Tbh, I just used that site myself and...the results were..really not relatable. Ive had my star chart read before and...well, let's just say the two didn't match.

Nicodemus
04-04-2014, 03:40 PM
What aspect or placement was that?
Ascendant Conjunct Mars? The second paragraph of the results.


Do you have not a single contradictory element in your being?

Are you not ever one way in certain situations, but another seemingly contradictory way in others?
1: The Sun sextile the Ascendant shows that it is easy for you to express yourself.
2: Neptune sextile the Ascendant shows that you have difficulty in expressing yourself and often give people the wrong impression.

To make that work, I think you have to be a believer.


There is not really any hoping.

It's a computer.
I guess the computer composed the descriptions itself, too.


It spits all the information out according to its formula.

The formula is indeed based on the positions of the astral bodies, signs, and houses, are the moment and location of your birth.

And the interpretations do actually fit according to the archetypes and underpinning logic of astrology.
Well, these are the very things that are in question when one critically looks at astrology. Except the moment and location of my birth. I am fairly certain of those.

Magic Poriferan
04-04-2014, 04:08 PM
Do you have not a single contradictory element in your being?

Are you not ever one way in certain situations, but another seemingly contradictory way in others?

If a profile is supposed to account for this by making contradictory statements about the same person, then it has the Forer effect written all over it.




There is not really any hoping.

It's a computer.

It spits all the information out according to its formula.

The formula is indeed based on the positions of the astral bodies, signs, and houses, are the moment and location of your birth.

And the interpretations do actually fit according to the archetypes and underpinning logic of astrology.

It is a computer, but it is scripted by people and applies concepts devised by people. Nicodemus may still be correct.



Different interpretations (by different authors) may word things a bit differently, or accentuate certain elements of the archetypes more or less than others, but the point is to not merely go word by word, in an extremely literal fashion, through each aspect/position's interpretation, but to come to understand the archetypal principles towards which each interpretation is pointing.

That sounds to me like "if you squint hard enough, it will look like you".



The output of a computer, while phenomenal from an efficiency standpoint, is inherently mechanical, and its limitations must be understood. And one must take this into account when reading a computer-generated profile, if one ever hopes to give their chart a fair, open-minded reading.

Actually, I would think that the way astrology is at least theoretically supposed to work, it would should be so deterministic that a computer would be quite suited for making sense of it and giving an accurate reading.

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 04:28 PM
If a profile is supposed to account for this by making contradictory statements about the same person, then it has the Forer effect written all over it.

That's fine.

I already addressed this just a few posts above to Prplchknz:


It is certainly prone to the forer effect.

But that accusation could (and would) be levied against it, even if it's true.

THAT is the (difficult) task that astrology challenges us to take up: are your critical thinking, interpretive, and reading skills well cultivated enough such that you can give your natal chart a truly open-minded reading, while not simply falling victim to the forer effect (because there's no way, while doing the reading, if one is genuinely open-minded while doing it, that one will know whether astrology is indeed [correspondentially] true or not).

It's difficult enough to respond to five to seven people asking questions at the same time.

Please try to mind answers that have already been offered that deal with the issue you're raising.


It is a computer, but it is scripted by people and applies concepts devised by people.

And the concepts and scripts are executed in a purely formulaic fashion.

Where were the planets, signs, and houses, at the time and location of your birth, and what are the interpretations of those locations and placements relative to one another.

It is very up front and honest about its methods, and there is nothing inherently deceitful about any of them.

You can be suspicious about them, but you can be suspicious about anything, if you want to, including about a good and honest person.

If you actually do the work, and look into astrology, while you will come to the conclusion that the execution of the methods could indeed lead to the Forer Effect while one reads their natal chart, you will also come to the conclusion that there is not necessarily anything inherently deceitful about the methods used.

The methods are the methods, and, frankly, they have a reasonable and understandable logic underpinning them.


Nicodemus may still be correct.

Yes, and my point still stands.

There is nothing inherently deceitful about any of the methods.

If you actually studied them, and knew how they worked, you would see this.

Can the product of the methods potentially lead to Forer Effect?

Absolutely.

But, once again, I already addressed that to Prplchknz (and to you above).


That sounds to me like "if you squint hard enough, it will look like you".

That's fine, and it's an understandable interpretation.

But what I said is also what's absolutely necessary (and reasonably necessary, if one actually studies this stuff, and comes to understand how the interpretations are created/discovered/intuited), if you want to interpret a chart as it's meant to be interpreted.

Just like with the Forer Effect question, just because you can have that position, and do so reasonably, does not necessarily make it correct.

That, as I said, is the challenge of astrology.

Suspending one's (dis)belief, and giving a truly open-minded reading.

Because one cannot know, while one is genuinely doing such a thing, whether astrology is indeed (correspondentially) true or not.


Actually, I would think that the way astrology is at least theoretically supposed to work, it would should be so deterministic that a computer would be quite suited for making sense of it and giving an accurate reading.

Well, that's cuz you don't really know how it's supposed to work.

There are difficulties that you can understand only if you actually have taken a deep and genuinely open dive into it at all.

If one has not given astrology a chance, to truly openly try to understand it on its own terms, one really isn't in a position, having not seen it from the inside, and thus come to understand how it actually might work, to make any such determination.

I could provide many lengthy, detailed, and accurate reasons why computers present issues when it comes to interpretations.

And the reason I can is because I have actually done the work, and done so in a genuinely open, curious, and considerate way.

(And there's still plenty of work to do; I could not imagine I'm even 40% of the way to truly being completely adept at it.)

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 04:28 PM
Nico, your reply will be coming next.

Qre:us
04-04-2014, 04:42 PM
What are the differences between Western astrology and Eastern astrology? Is there one?

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 05:04 PM
What are the differences between Western astrology and Eastern astrology? Is there one?

First off, I should say, that I am not expert enough in astrological history and the various astrological traditions to make an authoritative statement on this matter, so understand that when you read what I'm about to say, that what I'm about to say is simply what I have gathered from what research I have done, and that what research I have done on this matter is, imo, far too little to be authoritative.

Second, simply calling it Eastern astrology vs Western astrology is a very flawed way of looking at it. China has its own astrological tradition, which, from my understanding, is very different from the others. Vedic astrology, from my understanding, tho, is actually very similar to "Western astrology" (which really should be looked at, I believe, as Hellenistic astrology, coming from the Greeks), as I believe the lines of transmission of the ideas were significantly increased by the conquests of Alexander the Great.

All that being said, some months ago I learned (to my surprise) that Vedic astrology actually supposedly comes from "Western astrology", or Hellenistic astrology. I had actually previously assumed it was the other way around, as, having many good Indian friends growing up, and having gone to college as well with some of them, it was certainly put into my consciousness that many things we take for granted as "Greek" actually had a largely Indian origin (myths, etc). Some recent research has made me now triple back, and, frankly, I am now uncertain whether this Greek -> Indian transmission is actually what occurred, but, nevertheless, from what I have seen, there seem to be many more similarities between Greek astrology and Indian astrology than between Chinese astrology and either one of them (I have a very poor understanding of Chinese astrology, tho, so, once again, take that with the appropriate grain of salt, as perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about).

Umm.. does that answer your question?

I could probably say more, like about how the concepts and archetypes are essentially the same, I believe, but, while I believe this is largely true (there are things that seem to be accentuated in Vedic astrology, that might not really be as emphasized, or even really prevalent at all, in Western astrology, but these appear to be more like minor cultural variants, whereas the overarching frameworks are more-or-less the same), once again, I'm not expert enough to be completely authoritative on the matter.

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 05:05 PM
Oh, and the primary origin of all of astrology, from what I have gathered, is Mesopotamia/Babylon.

I actually briefly glanced over this yesterday.

You could probably learn a lot just from it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mundane_astrology

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 05:32 PM
OMG, someone do mine.

Ok, I have decided what I am going to do.

This thread has close to largely served its purpose.

We're going to have to switch to something I've been considering.


Tbh, I just used that site myself and...the results were..really not relatable. Ive had my star chart read before and...well, let's just say the two didn't match.

Which site did you use?

And what two didn't match?

You had your natal chart read in person by an astrologer?

Did you find it to be accurate, but not the one by whichever site you used?

Would need to know some details before I can have an idea as to what's gone on.

I'd also be willing to go over your chart, along with Senza's, as examples of how to do a natal reading.

Amargith
04-04-2014, 05:35 PM
Ok, I have decided what I am going to do.

This thread has close to largely served its purpose.

We're going to have to switch to something I've been considering.



Which site did you use?

And what two didn't match?

You had your natal chart read in person by an astrologer?

Did you find it to be accurate, but not the one by whichever site you used?

Would need to know some details before I can have an idea as to what's gone on.

I'd also be willing to go over your chart, along with Senza's, as examples of how to do a natal reading.

The one Nico used didn't match up with the one I had done earlier by Rex. And yes, that one was a lot more accurate.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/1601519_678005008924915_1364380080_n.jpg

I'd be intrigued to see what you come up with, so thanks for the offer :)

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 05:47 PM
The one Nico used didn't match up with the one I had done earlier by Rex. And yes, that one was a lot more accurate.

I'd be intrigued to see what you come up with, so thanks for the offer :)

Would you mind expanding a bit on what didn't line up about them?

Are you saying the actual aspects and positions weren't the same?

Or was it the interpretations of the aspects and positions?

Or the emphasis on certain aspects/positions vs others?

Amargith
04-04-2014, 05:51 PM
Would you mind expanding a bit on what didn't line up about them?

Are you saying the actual aspects and positions weren't the same?

Or the interpretations of the aspects and positions?

Or the emphasis on certain ones vs others?

I didn't check to see if it got the aspects right beyond the first one or two - they were correct. But the interpretation of them was...off. Perhaps because a machine is limited to giving the more general interpretations that stand alone instead of taking in the entire compilation of it all and see how one aspect influences another.
Example: my ascendant is Aries. While it is true that I tend to be focused on self-mastery and can be very direct, I lack the ambition and drive attributed to it, which can be explained by some of the other pieces of the puzzle. Similarly, the way Mercury supposedly influences me is again half correct, but also half wrong.

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 05:57 PM
Amargith Wind Up Rex

It would also be helpful to know what profile Rex used...

From what I saw earlier, astro.com has a paid-for natal profile using interpretations by Robert Pelletier, who is also the source of most of the interpretations, I believe, at astromatrix.

Amargith
04-04-2014, 05:58 PM
Amargith @wind-up rex

It would also be helpful to know what profile Rex used...

From what I saw earlier, astro.com has a paid-for natal profile using interpretations by Robert Pelletier, who is also the source of most of the interpretations, I believe, at astromatrix.

She used the chart I gave you.

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 06:13 PM
She used the chart I gave you.

Yeah, but...

Well, see, here's the thing...

Maybe she just used a chart, and did the interpreting completely by herself.

Rex knows a lot about astrology (more than me), so she might've just done that.

But she also might've gotten a full profile, read it, figured out what was more and less relevant, and then given you her analysis.

That's really the best way to go about things, because the machine, as I said, just spits out information.

It has no idea what it's doing.

It's not a conscious being.

There is no interpreting.

Just a formula, with canned interpretations.

It doesn't know how to present to you what is really most important in our chart.

(A program could potentially be developed to get close to that, but none of them, as of yet, do that.)

(And, even then, the methodologies for doing so would still be limited, as conscious interpretation is really kind of necessary.)

This is largely because, as you said in your post before this one, it is indeed flawed to simply look at each piece of your chart in isolation.

It's what makes interpreting this stuff so complex (and that's not just obfuscation to make astrology more non-falsifiable than it really is).

It really makes complete sense why, if astrology is true, then this is how it would work.

The way to think of it is like combining colors (or, when you consider all the parts of your chart, like I said before: a kaleidoscope).

But, if we're using just two colors, out of let's say 8 different possible colors, then think of the following issue:

If two people both have blue as one of their colors, but one has yellow as their other, and the other has red as their other, then, when you combine the first person's, you get green, but when you combine the second person's, you get purple.

Green and purple, very different from one another.

But both of them had blue as half their "chart".

Half of their underlying material was the exact same, but the final picture ended up extremely different, because the other half of the underlying material was different for each person.

The same principle holds true for astrology, but you're dealing with something like 138 colors, I believe.

(that astromatrix site was actually the first to ever break it down that way, that I have seen.)

(and the way it breaks it down, giving an image to each aspect: super cool. i love it.)

And then, you're not just dealing with combining just two colors out of those 138, but usually like 25-30.

And then, you're not just dealing with equal amounts of each color thrown in, but certain colors are gunna have more weight (due to orbs, and other reasons), and others less.

That's how complex astrology gets.

I'd say I'm pretty damn versed in personality psychology, and astrology, if it's true, is hands down the most complex system of personality psychology there is.

Frankly, nothing else we have is even remotely close.

And, on top of it, I have found it, not only for myself, but for others as well, to be extremely accurate.

One has to go into it, though, with an open mind, or one will get absolutely nothing out of it.

It could be bunk, it could all just be forer effect, but not necessarily.

And unless one gives it a genuine and legitimate shot, and learns how it all actually supposedly works.

Then one real has no idea what they're talking about, as it's an extremely complex and subtle system, and cannot be understood, nor legitimately written off, without learning about it from the inside, as it understands itself, AND THEN coming to some kind of judgment.

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 06:23 PM
And, at this point, I'm going to reiterate, that anyone who has participated in this thread, absolutely should watch this interview:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTQbVU9QorU

RaptorWizard
04-04-2014, 07:31 PM
1:14:28 = Everyone's 8 Worlds-​​Omega won Forever to Infinities-Ultimate and Will's 2 Lightning-Rainbows!

"It's the stillest words that bring on the Thunderstorms. Thoughts that come on Bunny's wings guide Her Worlds!" ~ Big Z

Magic Poriferan
04-04-2014, 08:38 PM
That's fine.

I already addressed this just a few posts above to Prplchknz:

Some things have no ability to inform outside of being subjected to the Forer effect. If something just hits you with a ball of contradictions, there's a problem.



That's fine, and it's an understandable interpretation.

But what I said is also what's absolutely necessary (and reasonably necessary, if one actually studies this stuff, and comes to understand how the interpretations are created/discovered/intuited), if you want to interpret a chart as it's meant to be interpreted.

Just like with the Forer Effect question, just because you can have that position, and do so reasonably, does not necessarily make it correct.

That, as I said, is the challenge of astrology.

Suspending one's (dis)belief, and giving a truly open-minded reading.

Because one cannot know, while one is genuinely doing such a thing, whether astrology is indeed (correspondentially) true or not.



Well, that's cuz you don't really know how it's supposed to work.

There are difficulties that you can understand only if you actually have taken a deep and genuinely open dive into it at all.

If one has not given astrology a chance, to truly openly try to understand it on its own terms, one really isn't in a position, having not seen it from the inside, and thus come to understand how it actually might work, to make any such determination.

I could provide many lengthy, detailed, and accurate reasons why computers present issues when it comes to interpretations.

And the reason I can is because I have actually done the work, and done so in a genuinely open, curious, and considerate way.

(And there's still plenty of work to do; I could not imagine I'm even 40% of the way to truly being completely adept at it.)

Well, you're right that I haven't invested much time in it, and I won't. I don't want to.

But do you know anyone who you think has invested this sufficient amount of time in it, and has kept an open mind in studying it, who has concluded that it is all bullshit?

Wind Up Rex
04-04-2014, 08:49 PM
Zarathustra,

I interpreted Amargith's chart from scratch using the basic astro.com natal chart and two special charts in their extended chart selection section.

I have a particular system for interpretations, and generally only refer to "canned" interpretations when reading someone I know as a way of keeping me honest.

In other words, the canned explanation is sort of like a benchmark, if what I'm saying about a particular aspect strays too far from the generalized interpretation, then I know my reading of the chart is too subjectively biased. I acknowledge to whomever I read that it's impossible to be 100% pure, but I can at least be objective about the amount of personal knowledge I'm bringing into a reading.

Nights and Days
04-04-2014, 09:48 PM
Just read my birth chart.

Whoa!

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 10:00 PM
Just read my birth chart.

Whoa!

Which site did you use?

Thoughts?

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 10:11 PM
Some things have no ability to inform outside of being subjected to the Forer effect.

Ok.

And if astrology is not true, then this is the case for astrology.

But if it is true, then it is not the case.

So your statement still proves nothing.


If something just hits you with a ball of contradictions, there's a problem.

That depends on what you mean by "hits you with a ball of contradictions".

Some things, if you are being overly literal, can seem like a contradiction, but then, when examined more closely, and within proper context, all of a sudden reveal themselves as being perfectly able to reside within the same individual.

That's why I used the color analogy.

Having blue as one of your colors does not mean red cannot also be one of your colors.

The overly literal person would scream at that, "No! You can't be both red and blue!", and sound like an idiot.


Well, you're right that I haven't invested much time in it, and I won't. I don't want to.

That's fine, that's your choice.

Just remember that, when you're opining on the matter, you have an insufficient basis of knowledge for judgment.

And also, at the very least, if nothing else, you should watch that CBC interview with Tarnas.

At this point, to not do so, would be to intentionally remain willfully ignorant.

You don't have to believe it, but at least give it an open listen.


But do you know anyone who you think has invested this sufficient amount of time in it, and has kept an open mind in studying it, who has concluded that it is all bullshit?

I don't really know that many people who have invested any time in it.

The only person I know, really, who comes to mind, is Rex.

I know someone else who is into it (she actually is the one who originally gave me Tarnas' book), but she doesn't give nearly as critical an eye to it (she's an INFP, and, for whatever reason[s], was just more naturally inclined to believe in it).

Nights and Days
04-04-2014, 10:16 PM
Which site did you use?

Thoughts?

I used astromatrix.

I thought it went really deep, actually. A lot of what it said was too eerily accurate and specific for it to simply be the Forer effect in action.. I think so anyway.

Never looked into my birth chart before. So glad I did.

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 10:20 PM
I used astromatrix.

I thought went really deep. A lot of what it said was too eerily accurate and specific for it to simply be the Forer effect in action.. I think so anyway.

Never looked into my birth chart before. So glad I did.

Cool.

Glad you got value out of it.

I've got some techniques for making more sense of it.

So, if you have any questions, or would like some recommendations, just feel free to ask.

There's a lot of information in your natal chart, and figuring out what is more relevant, and what is less, can be challenging.

Not each aspect is as important as all the other ones, and figuring out the order of importance is helpful and valuable.

Urarienev
04-04-2014, 10:36 PM
Do I not see what everyone's talking about with this forer effect because I'm a 6w7?

...and already identify with having internal contradictions...

I guess I just don't see that as reason to debunk something... :thinking:

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 10:50 PM
Do I not see what everyone's talking about with this forer effect because I'm a 6w7?

...and already identify with having internal contradictions...

I guess I just don't see that as reason to debunk something... :thinking:

I understand why people have these objections.

I just also see why they're wrong.

Or, at the very least, why they aren't necessarily meaningful.

And why, if you're actually giving astrology a fair chance to present itself, these objections don't come even close to negating it.

Urarienev
04-04-2014, 11:15 PM
I understand why people have these objections.

I just also see why they're wrong.

Or, at the very least, why they aren't necessarily meaningful.

And why, if you're actually giving astrology a fair chance to present itself, these objections aren't anything close to negating it.

Yea, but when I first read about my chinese zodiac (I'm the rabbit) I scoffed. Then I found out I was a 6...and after that, I read it again and now I have no idea how I could have ever denied it.

Shadows work in mysterious ways... And one of the biggest purposes a shadow brings, is balance to our many contradictions....

At least that's my take on it.

Zarathustra
04-04-2014, 11:45 PM
Just created:
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68819

senza tema
04-05-2014, 01:29 AM
Ok, I have decided what I am going to do.

This thread has close to largely served its purpose.

We're going to have to switch to something I've been considering.



Which site did you use?

And what two didn't match?

You had your natal chart read in person by an astrologer?

Did you find it to be accurate, but not the one by whichever site you used?

Would need to know some details before I can have an idea as to what's gone on.

I'd also be willing to go over your chart, along with Senza's, as examples of how to do a natal reading.

Fantastic. I'd love to learn how to read charts/figure out which aspects are most important, etc.

For me, it's not that my chart is incorrect per se, it's just the chart of a vigorously extroverted and expansive and philosophical person (Jupiter is a big guy in mine, I think?) and it's a little ... overstated.

Hard
04-05-2014, 01:48 AM
Their free chart is very limited.

These two sites offer very good free charts.

I have bought charts from astro.com, astrology.com, and some others.

What I do not like about those I have bought from astro.com (Liz Greene's relationship profile, et al) is that they do not tell you what aspects or placements they are using to arrive at their interpretation, and that is annoying.


Really? I find you can do a ton with their charts. There's many different models, and that alone seems pretty good to me. The one thing that annoys me is they insist on using chiron and I personally never use it much.

I never buy charts. I only did once and it was mostly for experimental reasons that I explained in my previous post (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51877&p=2266168&viewfull=1#post2266168). The one I got is by Liz Greene. I agree the not telling of what aspects they are using to explain things quite annoyed me. I know enough that for most of things I could figure out what aspect(s) and stuff they were basing it off of, but others I'm not able to figure out what they're refrencing. For someone who is learning, yeah it kind of defeats the purposes, but I still found the descriptions to be valuable (or as valuable as they could be for what I bought it for at the time). The generic free interpretations on astro.com leave a lot to be desired, but I stopped using those from the start. I just feel the variety of charts they offer, and the options you can do with them to be rather extensive.

One chart tool that I find to be useful (and cool) is the chart delineation (pullen/astrolog, it also comes with a TON of information). In the middle, it breaks down the "effect" of each placement based on aspect orb, importance, depositer, chart rulers, house, sign, planet, etc. It takes everything into account.

This is mine to give you an idea what it can be like if you haven't used it:

screenshot cause copy paste has fail:

http://i.imgur.com/abZjSjI.png

Dr Mobius
04-05-2014, 04:52 AM
I read through my astromatrix chart that was fascinating, I had no idea astrology was so complicated; it certainly puts newspaper horoscopes to shame. I particularly liked this part:


The Sun square the Ascendant indicates that when you express yourself you unknowingly cause others to react negatively. You tend to get off on the wrong foot because you have trouble convincing people that you are sincere and honest. You come on a bit strong, which just doesn't set quite right with people, and they resent you for it. All the endearments you use never quite offset your suspected lack of sincerity.

It aptly describes my poor online interaction skills.

YWIR
04-05-2014, 12:34 PM
...so this is is what other must feel when I start blabbing on about Typology....

Qre:us
04-07-2014, 07:16 PM
...so this is is what other must feel when I start blabbing on about Typology....

lol.


First off, I should say, that I am not expert enough in astrological history and the various astrological traditions to make an authoritative statement on this matter, so understand that when you read what I'm about to say, that what I'm about to say is simply what I have gathered from what research I have done, and that what research I have done on this matter is, imo, far too little to be authoritative.

Second, simply calling it Eastern astrology vs Western astrology is a very flawed way of looking at it. China has its own astrological tradition, which, from my understanding, is very different from the others.

I should have specified. I meant Vedic astrology.


Vedic astrology, from my understanding, tho, is actually very similar to "Western astrology" (which really should be looked at, I believe, as Hellenistic astrology, coming from the Greeks), as I believe the lines of transmission of the ideas were significantly increased by the conquests of Alexander the Great.

All that being said, some months ago I learned (to my surprise) that Vedic astrology actually supposedly comes from "Western astrology", or Hellenistic astrology. I had actually previously assumed it was the other way around, as, having many good Indian friends growing up, and having gone to college as well with some of them, it was certainly put into my consciousness that many things we take for granted as "Greek" actually had a largely Indian origin (myths, etc). Some recent research has made me now triple back, and, frankly, I am now uncertain whether this Greek -> Indian transmission is actually what occurred, but, nevertheless, from what I have seen, there seem to be many more similarities between Greek astrology and Indian astrology than between Chinese astrology and either one of them (I have a very poor understanding of Chinese astrology, tho, so, once again, take that with the appropriate grain of salt, as perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about).

Umm.. does that answer your question?

I could probably say more, like about how the concepts and archetypes are essentially the same, I believe, but, while I believe this is largely true (there are things that seem to be accentuated in Vedic astrology, that might not really be as emphasized, or even really prevalent at all, in Western astrology, but these appear to be more like minor cultural variants, whereas the overarching frameworks are more-or-less the same), once again, I'm not expert enough to be completely authoritative on the matter.

I guess my question, at its most basic, was, would one get the same results if they applied a Vedic Astrology reading to their chart versus a "Western astrology" one? Or, would there be significant differences. And if there are significant differences, what, in your expertise, results in those differences? Different starting points?

It's the subjectivity of astrology that's an issue for me. 1+1 to derive at 2 is universal. As with astronomy.

Second issue is, the justification of causation. That planetary movements causes someone born minutes within each other, to have different life courses. I have some familiarity with Vedic astrology, but not enough to really comment on it with authority. But, the causation explanation, has never been cleared up.

Was wondering if "Western" astrology differed in how it assumed causation.

Anyway, thanks for the history of the evolution of astrology. Interesting, though not surprising, that it's tied to the Babylonians.

Zarathustra
04-07-2014, 07:33 PM
I guess my question, at its most basic, was, would one get the same results if they applied a Vedic Astrology reading to their chart versus a "Western astrology" one? Or, would there be significant differences. And if there are significant differences, what, in your expertise, results in those differences? Different starting points?

I'd compare it to something like Socionics vs MBTI.

Same source material, but somewhat different interpretations.

I'm not sure, tho, exactly *how* different the interpretations would be, tho.

And, even if they were, I mean... two MBTI theorists won't necessarily give you the exact same description of each of the 16 types.


It's the subjectivity of astrology that's an issue for me. 1+1 to derive at 2 is universal. As with astronomy.

Yeah, it's trying to do something far more complicated than arithmetic or just the movement of the planets.

Although the movements of the planets is a part of it.


Second issue is, the justification of causation. That planetary movements causes someone born minutes within each other, to have different life courses. I have some familiarity with Vedic astrology, but not enough to really comment on it with authority. But, the causation explanation, has never been cleared up.

It's not actually causal (at least not according to the modern Western variety in which I am interested).

It's synchronistic.

You should really watch the video I posted above.

The dude is extremely smart, extremely well-educated, and extremely well-spoken.

He uses an analogy about how a clock doesn't cause time to pass, it merely chronicles it.


Was wondering if "Western" astrology differed in how it assumed causation.

There are multiple schools of thought on this, both now and throughout history, both *within* Western astrology, and outside it.

The most defensible explanation, imo, is expounded in the video I posted.


Anyway, thanks for the history of the evolution of astrology.

No problem


Interesting, though not surprising, that it's tied to the Babylonians.

It was the cradle of civilization.

AffirmitiveAnxiety
04-07-2014, 07:54 PM
I have an issue with finding out when I was born that renders more in-depth astrology useless for me, since no one in my family can give me a clear time and my birth certificate does not mention a time either.

And here in the UK as far as I know we no longer record the exact time on our birth certificates after around 1980, essentially it's up to human memory, which is shaky at best, obfuscating at worst.

Perhaps useless was a pre-emptive word, but this seems to rely strongly on exact time of birth. The other issue is that I was born at home, so there were no other witnesses other than mum and dad.

chana
04-07-2014, 08:36 PM
http://i.imgur.com/F4BD0Bq.jpg

so many negative aspects :cry:

Nicodemus
04-07-2014, 08:47 PM
so many negative aspects :cry:
It's okay, it's only astrology.

http://i.imgur.com/dSsGd.gif

Zarathustra
04-07-2014, 09:02 PM
I have an issue with finding out when I was born that renders more in-depth astrology useless for me, since no one in my family can give me a clear time and my birth certificate does not mention a time either.

And here in the UK as far as I know we no longer record the exact time on our birth certificates after around 1980, essentially it's up to human memory, which is shaky at best, obfuscating at worst.

Perhaps useless was a pre-emptive word, but this seems to rely strongly on exact time of birth. The other issue is that I was born at home, so there were no other witnesses other than mum and dad.

There's a lot that won't necessarily change...

The houses are completely dependent on birth time, and they do matter...

But much of the rest, say 80-90%, likely won't change.

There could be some stuff that changes (aspects that do or don't manifest, related to your ascendant, midheaven, north node, moon, mercury, Venus, and mars... fuck, that's actually a lot... but nothing necessarily changes for any of those... it just could...)

There are actually workarounds by which you could try to figure out what time your "soul birth" was...

You'd figure out which rising sign (ascendant) makes most sense for you...

All the rest of the houses would sorta flow from there...

It wouldn't be perfect, cuz you wouldn't know how far into your ascendant sign you were when you were born...

And thus, depending on where you assume, certain planets might fall into the house before or after the one they're supposed to...

But then you could perform the same technique to figure out which house each planet should be in...

It's fitting the data to the results, but that doesn't mean it's wrong, and at least it'd give you something to go on