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INTJMom
01-14-2008, 12:38 AM
Beginning tonight and every Sunday through March 30th from 9 - 11 PM, PBS stations will be broadcasting Masterpiece Theatre's presentations of Jane Austen films.

Persuasion is tonight.
It's a new 2007 version with Sally Hawkins.

Persuasion (2007) (TV) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0844330/)

Apollonian
01-14-2008, 04:05 AM
*queue'd the DVR*

heart
01-14-2008, 07:16 AM
This latest version of Persuasion was lackluster. :(

INTJMom
01-14-2008, 01:54 PM
I thought it was too fast-paced. It didn't have the soulful depth of Pride & Prejudice, though I did like the parts when she wrote in her diary. I have no need to see it again.

Hirsch63
01-14-2008, 11:47 PM
The last version with Ciaran Hinds (sp?) was the best...I tried about 10 minutes of this new one...ycch.

heart
01-15-2008, 12:48 AM
The last version (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114117/)with Ciaran Hinds (sp?) was the best...I tried about 10 minutes of this new one...ycch.


I agree! That version was excellent. :wubbie:

INTJMom
01-15-2008, 01:50 AM
The last version with Ciaran Hinds (sp?) was the best...I tried about 10 minutes of this new one...ycch.Only ten minutes, huh?
I guess you were smarter than me and a friend of mine who watched the whole thing.
He preferred the 1995 version also.
I thought this new version was shallow. They didn't develop the characters.

heart
01-15-2008, 04:00 AM
Only ten minutes, huh?
I guess you were smarter than me and a friend of mine who watched the whole thing.
He preferred the 1995 version also.
I thought this new version was shallow. They didn't develop the characters.

Yes, I agree, it was so deeply disappointing. But I am holding out hope that some of the others they present in the next weeks will not be so flat.

Hirsch63
01-15-2008, 04:20 AM
One wonders: how can you screw up that writing? Unless of course you take liberties. And I see a trend of these latest interpretations casting youthful beatiful people without discernible character.

Emma Thompson had the experience and judgement to get away with some editing....and a fine cast.

Austen's heroines have to have a sort of deep, quiet strength or fire....other characters are well rounded and are people we can actually recognize...perhaps by MBTI type even. Casting here is paramount.

And why the drive to redo these recent (near perfect as far as I am concerned) versions?

I remember hearing that they were going to redo the Prime Suspect series here in the US...with Michelle Pfifer in Helen Mirren's role! I believe that I would like to employ an emoticon: :shock: :1377: :sick: :17425:

Okay I went overboard....

heart
01-15-2008, 04:55 AM
It wasn't so long ago that they did such a great ( I thought) job on the The Forsyte Saga (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/forsyte/) . What the heck happened?

I was laughing through parts of Dr Zhavigo (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/zhivago/)because it was so fluffy for such a deep work. I really thought that Keira Knightley didn't have the earthy, sensual dreaminess needed to play Lara and Sam Neil as Komarovsky was a scream.

Colors
01-15-2008, 07:26 AM
I caught the showing of Persuasion last night. I actually haven't had any other experience with Jane Austen other than this and Sense and Sensibility (the Ang Lee, Emma Thompson, Kate Winslet version). :blush:

My thoughts:
Either romantic comedy storylines haven't changed much, or this adaptation was very reductionist/ made with very modern sensibilities. In the first half the characters meet cute and fall in love. In the second half they struggle to express this and/or realize this in a complicated plot that could generally be resolved by everyone confessing their feelings. Of course, Persuasion is somewhat missing the first half of this equation, and so perhaps it is a failure of this adaptation that I didn't really get to see what Anne and Captain Wentworth love so much about each other. (It's just a given.)

I wonder if I should read a Jane Austen novel. I don't know which one though! :) Maybe the shortest.

It also took me the entire movie to finally get that I recognized the actor who played Captain Wentworth from Masterpiece Theater's adaptation of Casanova with David Tennant and Peter O'Toole. :doh: That was genius.

INTJMom
01-15-2008, 04:23 PM
Yes, I agree, it was so deeply disappointing. But I am holding out hope that some of the others they present in the next weeks will not be so flat.The 5 hours with Colin Firth in Pride and Prejudice will be quite satisfying! :yes: (I've seen it 3 or 4 times already!)

I'm not so sure about the new productions though. But like you, I am hoping.

INTJMom
01-15-2008, 04:27 PM
I caught the showing of Persuasion last night. I actually haven't had any other experience with Jane Austen other than this and Sense and Sensibility (the Ang Lee, Emma Thompson, Kate Winslet version). :blush:

My thoughts:
Either romantic comedy storylines haven't changed much, or this adaptation was very reductionist/ made with very modern sensibilities. In the first half the characters meet cute and fall in love. In the second half they struggle to express this and/or realize this in a complicated plot that could generally be resolved by everyone confessing their feelings. Of course, Persuasion is somewhat missing the first half of this equation, and so perhaps it is a failure of this adaptation that I didn't really get to see what Anne and Captain Wentworth love so much about each other. (It's just a given.)

I wonder if I should read a Jane Austen novel. I don't know which one though! :) Maybe the shortest.

It also took me the entire movie to finally get that I recognized the actor who played Captain Wentworth from Masterpiece Theater's adaptation of Casanova with David Tennant and Peter O'Toole. :doh: That was genius.The part I bolded I believe is correct.
You will love Austen's writing if you like wit, a little sarcasm and nobility.
Pride and Prejudice is her best work in my opinion, though the others are good.

heart
01-16-2008, 03:25 AM
I caught the showing of Persuasion last night. I actually haven't had any other experience with Jane Austen other than this and Sense and Sensibility (the Ang Lee, Emma Thompson, Kate Winslet version). :blush:

My thoughts:
Either romantic comedy storylines haven't changed much, or this adaptation was very reductionist/ made with very modern sensibilities. In the first half the characters meet cute and fall in love. In the second half they struggle to express this and/or realize this in a complicated plot that could generally be resolved by everyone confessing their feelings. Of course, Persuasion is somewhat missing the first half of this equation, and so perhaps it is a failure of this adaptation that I didn't really get to see what Anne and Captain Wentworth love so much about each other. (It's just a given.)

I wonder if I should read a Jane Austen novel. I don't know which one though! :) Maybe the shortest.

It also took me the entire movie to finally get that I recognized the actor who played Captain Wentworth from Masterpiece Theater's adaptation of Casanova with David Tennant and Peter O'Toole. :doh: That was genius.


In my opinion Persuasion is the best of her novels, but don't let this latest version be an example of it. ;)


I didn't like Casanova much. It seemed somewhat cheesy.

CzeCze
01-16-2008, 01:21 PM
This latest version of Persuasion was lackluster. :(

Did you like the previous version where the main characters were older? I find it interesting how in this version the guy was younger and hotter and the main character was much more 'action oriented'...she ran a lot! They even used fake hand held shots with all that shaking and running. I never read Persuasion but thought it was supposed to be 'autumnal'. Wasn't she considered an 'old maid' by the time the story starts?

I like both versions. There was more angst in this latest one.

I love me some Jane Austen and Dickens on Masterpiece. My INTP friend is really into period pieces, more than me and I was the only person she knew who might even be interested in seeing that Jane Austen biopic that came out last year.

CzeCze
01-16-2008, 01:22 PM
Also, 'Nicholas Nickelby' on Masterpiece is very entertaining. Plus, there is hotness all around. :D

INTJMom
01-16-2008, 02:20 PM
...
I never read Persuasion but thought it was supposed to be 'autumnal'.
...
Anne is 27 years old. In her day, she was considered an old maid.

In Pride and Prejudice, Charlotte was 28.

heart
01-22-2008, 05:45 PM
I was flipping through the channels after being totally put comatose by the first fifteen mintues of Northanger Abbey and the other PBS channel had the Masterpiece version of Dracula (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/dracula/). They really did a good job with that one I think, which surprised me. It seems like they are going with the others so politically correct and staid that they drain all the vitality out of them. I saw a review for this version of Dracula calling it:

Dark, sexy and fresh...

-- The London Observer

I have to agree, they did a good job with that one, for whatever reason.

INTJMom
01-22-2008, 06:41 PM
So Northanger Abbey wasn't good?
I couldn't watch it because every tv in the house was being used!

heart
01-22-2008, 07:04 PM
So Northanger Abbey wasn't good?
I couldn't watch it because every tv in the house was being used!

I got really bored with it and I am very much into period pieces. However I saw people giving it good reviews on Netflix. Maybe I am hard to please, lol.

INTJMom
01-22-2008, 07:14 PM
I just checked on the PBS Masterpiece Theatre forum, and it received good reviews there.
People seemed to like the cast, but once again, a lot of comments about the film being rushed.
Most liked it much better than Persuasion.

Jae Rae
01-27-2008, 07:02 AM
Husband (he's a Jane A. fan) and I just watched Northanger Abbey and thought it was quite enjoyable. The leads were especially good. Fabulous scenery. Some foreshadowing to P&P, with many of the same themes - marrying for money, adventuring men, ruined women, courtly dances, outspoken heroine.

By the way, we both adored the Colin Firth/Jennifer Ehle version of Pride & Prejudice. Highly recommended.

Jae Rae

INTJMom
01-27-2008, 10:11 PM
...
By the way, we both adored the Colin Firth/Jennifer Ehle version of Pride & Prejudice. Highly recommended.

Jae RaeI liked it. too. I just got the DVD set for my birthday!
I prefer the casting, directing, filming and costuming of the 2007 version with Kiera Knightly, but I prefer the script of the Colin Firth version.

INTJMom
01-27-2008, 10:12 PM
Tonight is Mansfield Park at 9 PM.

Jae Rae
01-29-2008, 05:50 AM
Just watched Mansfield Park. Very enjoyable, but Fanny & Edmund waltz, which is off by several years.

A friend turned me on to an Austen blog: AustenBlog . . . she’s everywhere (http://www.austenblog.com/)

Jae Rae

Colors
01-29-2008, 06:50 AM
Missed "Northanger Abbey", but caught "Mansfield Park" last night.

Fanny and Edmund were all cute and all, but their romance was too sweet!- it felt somewhat silly/cheesy near the end where he finally sees her in the right light and all! I think what I don't like about these Jane Austen productions is that I never get a sense of what world they live in. It's all very stagey. Live in a world where all people seem to do is travel to places with names and impose on others at their great estates and gossip incessantly and fall in love. What do people do for a living? Sometimes they mention being poor or being in the army, but everything happens off stage. The heroine is stuck at home and others bring back dramatic news: Maria has run off!, etc. Though I did like that the rich sister (the snobby London one) didn't change at all. :D

It's just very disorienting, I guess. How can I understand their societal and monetary pressures, if we hardly see any!?

INTJMom
01-29-2008, 02:36 PM
Missed "Northanger Abbey", but caught "Mansfield Park" last night.

Fanny and Edmund were all cute and all, but their romance was too sweet!- it felt somewhat silly/cheesy near the end where he finally sees her in the right light and all! I think what I don't like about these Jane Austen productions is that I never get a sense of what world they live in. It's all very stagey. Live in a world where all people seem to do is travel to places with names and impose on others at their great estates and gossip incessantly and fall in love. What do people do for a living? Sometimes they mention being poor or being in the army, but everything happens off stage. The heroine is stuck at home and others bring back dramatic news: Maria has run off!, etc. Though I did like that the rich sister (the snobby London one) didn't change at all. :D

It's just very disorienting, I guess. How can I understand their societal and monetary pressures, if we hardly see any!?I agree with you that they don't develop that very well. As a matter of fact, most of what I know about that I learned at a site called Pemberley.com.
Jane Austen's Writings (http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/janewrit.html)

Austen's book are heavily filled with dialogue which I think is one of the things that makes the books transferable and believable once you put them to a script, and she spends hardly any time at all describing the physical surroundings or political setting. Those are all taken for granted. It's understandable that 200 years afterward, we would have a little difficulty imagining what life was like for people in her time. I will say that the more I learn about the social setting, the more understanding I gain into Austen's writing, and the films, in part, have helped me visualize better, how it could have been back then.

I will say this also, that the films just skim the surface, and there is much more meat to the books.

INTJMom
01-29-2008, 02:38 PM
Just watched Mansfield Park. Very enjoyable, but Fanny & Edmund waltz, which is off by several years.

A friend turned me on to an Austen blog: AustenBlog . . . she’s everywhere

Jae RaeI bookmarked the blog.

So you're saying the waltz hadn't been invented yet?

INTJMom
01-29-2008, 02:40 PM
I'm looking forward to "Miss Austen Regrets".

INTJMom
01-29-2008, 03:37 PM
"I have had the pleasure of viewing an advance copy, and am favourably pleased. I think that the writer Gwyneth Hughes and director Jeremy Lovering have handled a very sensitive subject with honesty and respect."
Miss Austen Regrets Preview: A Lively Curiosity « Austenprose (http://austenprose.wordpress.com/2008/01/22/miss-austen-regrets-preview-a-lively-curiousity/)

""The script is very tightly based on Austen's surviving letters to her sister and to her young niece, Fanny. So I must share the credit for quite a lot of the dialogue with Miss Austen herself!"

""Everyone knows Jane Austen never married. For her millions of fans this can only be a relief, because it's hard to see how a 19th century wife and mother could have found time to write her six wonderful novels! All the same, you do wonder whether she minded – how this spinster lady felt about the absence of a real Mr Darcy in her life."

"And then I read the most extraordinary fact. Jane Austen did receive a proposal of marriage from a wealthy young neighbour. And she accepted! She actually said yes to him – till after a long night of discussion with her sister Cassandra, she changed her mind. This intriguing decision inspired the story of Miss Austen Regrets.""
BBC - Press Office - Revealing the romance behind Jane Austen (http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2007/08_august/21/austen.shtml)

"Miss Austen Regrets was written by Gwyneth Hughes, who based her script on Austen’s surviving correspondence with Cassandra and Fanny. The characters and incidents in the film are drawn from these letters, with Hughes reading carefully between the lines to fill in crucial gaps.

Cassandra notoriously burned many of her sister’s letters after Jane’s death—an act that was probably intended to spare the feelings of still-living relatives and acquaintances, who were the target of Jane’s famous barbs."

Olivia Williams as Jane Austen
Imogen Poots as Fanny Austen Knight
Greta Scacchi as Cassandra Austen
Hugh Bonneville as Rev Brook Bridges
Adrian Edmondson as Henry Austen
Jack Huston as Charles Haden
Phyllida Law as Mrs Austen
Pip Torrens as Edward Austen-Knight
Sylvie Herbert as Madame Bigeon
Tom Hiddleston as John Plumptre
Sally Tatum as Anna Lefroy
Jason Watkins as Rev Clarke
Miss Austen Regrets (http://missaustenregrets.com/)

Jae Rae
01-29-2008, 07:37 PM
I bookmarked the blog.

So you're saying the waltz hadn't been invented yet?

The waltz existed, but wasn't accepted by polite society in England until some years after it crossed the Channel. Fanny and Edmund were touching, not just hand to hand, but holding each other in their arms. They were married at the time, so it wasn't so scandalous, but as late as the mid-1800s many people were anti-waltz; then Queen Victoria came out as a waltz lover and the furor was over.

I don't know Austen well enough to know if she mentions waltzing in her books.

Jae Rae

INTJMom
01-29-2008, 09:41 PM
The waltz existed, but wasn't accepted by polite society in England until some years after it crossed the Channel. Fanny and Edmund were touching, not just hand to hand, but holding each other in their arms. They were married at the time, so it wasn't so scandalous, but as late as the mid-1800s many people were anti-waltz; then Queen Victoria came out as a waltz lover and the furor was over.

I don't know Austen well enough to know if she mentions waltzing in her books.

Jae RaeLike a true nerd, I went and checked. The word waltz was not mentioned in Mansfield Park. I'm sure it was artistic license on the part of the scriptwriter, but I wonder why they bothered putting that in there since we know of no time before hand where they had time to practice. Kind of silly really.

I wonder how husbands and wives danced together at a wedding before that? Maybe they didn't?

Jae Rae
01-29-2008, 10:30 PM
They were trying to show that Fanny and Edmund were a different kind of couple, who married for love not money, in contrast to the mannered union of Edmund's older sister and the one envisioned by her family for Fanny.

Jae Rae

INTJMom
01-29-2008, 11:03 PM
They were trying to show that Fanny and Edmund were a different kind of couple, who married for love not money, in contrast to the mannered union of Edmund's older sister and the one envisioned by her family for Fanny.

Jae RaeI suppose they accomplished that.

Jae Rae
01-30-2008, 02:12 AM
In a related vein - does anyone remember Poldark? It first appeared on Masterpiece Theater in the mid-70s. I fell in love with those characters, especially Demelza. It was set in post-Revolutionary War England.

Jae Rae

Hirsch63
01-30-2008, 04:07 AM
Poldark was a good show!

You know I watched a little of these last few Austen shows...it is as if they have pushed the pace and volume...they lack the subtlety of The Firth/Ehle PP and the Persuasion with Ciaran Hinds. And these along with SS (Thompson) had better musical scores. The newer versions seem to lack...soul and maybe a decent budget.

heart
01-30-2008, 04:20 AM
Yes, I remember Poldark. I agree it was a great show about a interesting time. My favorite Masterpiece Theater production will probably always be "To Serve Them All My Days (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080298/)." I loved that series so much. The character David Powlett-Jonesis just so great, I seriously adore that character. Probably one of my all time favorite characters in literature.

I have to agree with Hirsch about these new productions of Austen's works, souless, vapid.

Jae Rae
01-30-2008, 04:28 AM
I guess we're lucky we missed Persuasion. I liked Northanger Abbey and Mansfield Park, but I've never seen other versions of them. My Janey friend said she was really disappointed in the casting of Fanny, and I agree she was a bit horsey-looking.

Jae Rae

heart
01-30-2008, 04:34 AM
I have to admit I find the 1999 version of Mansfield Park (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0178737/) to be better than the latest version.

Jae Rae
01-30-2008, 04:37 AM
Thank you, Heart for the recommendations. Is there a version of Northanger Abbey you like?

Jae Rae

heart
01-30-2008, 04:48 AM
The only one I know of is the 1986 and I wasn't impressed with it much.

Colors
02-04-2008, 05:00 PM
Anyone catch Jane Austen Regrets last night? It was really impressive (to me). Much more engaging than the adaptations of her works that came before in this marathon.

cafe
02-04-2008, 05:02 PM
I started to watch it, but when commentator said it was basically made up, I was disappointed and decided not to watch it. If it was really good, I suppose I could try to catch it another time.

Colors
02-04-2008, 05:12 PM
I don't know a lot about Jane Austen's life, so the made-up parts didn't really bother me! They really did potray her very INTJ-ish, though. It was really about the later part in her life, sort of semi-mirrored through the life of her niece, Fanny. Fanny really idolizes the romance of her books, but it's sort of about how in real life, the love and money are really at odds and don't coalesce. And if Jane Austen's happy about the decisions she's made regarding love. (Taking back her agreement to marry Mr. Bridges is a major one.)

(Does this mean the whole Jane Austen Presents thing is over? I suppose I've got to look it up.)

Jae Rae
02-04-2008, 05:16 PM
My daughter and I watched the last hour of it and thought it was great. It also featured partner dancing. Jane was brilliantly cast. She really came off as an INTJ. Cassandra and her mother were also excellent.

Jae Rae

INTJMom
02-04-2008, 05:55 PM
I don't know a lot about Jane Austen's life, so the made-up parts didn't really bother me! They really did portray her very INTJ-ish, though. It was really about the later part in her life, sort of semi-mirrored through the life of her niece, Fanny. Fanny really idolizes the romance of her books, but it's sort of about how in real life, the love and money are really at odds and don't coalesce. And if Jane Austen's happy about the decisions she's made regarding love. (Taking back her agreement to marry Mr. Bridges is a major one.)

(Does this mean the whole Jane Austen Presents thing is over? I suppose I've got to look it up.)It rund through the end of March, I think. We still have Pride & Prejudice with Colin Firth, which is EXCELLENT, and Emma, I think. Right?

Yes -
every Sunday through March 30th from 9 - 11 PM, PBS stations


My daughter and I watched the last hour of it and thought it was great. It also featured partner dancing. Jane was brilliantly cast. She really came off as an INTJ. Cassandra and her mother were also excellent.

Jae RaeI recorded it because I was watching the Superbowl, but I am going to watch it now, and do some ironing at the same time. Ironing always goes so much faster if I can think about something else while I'm doing it.

I did see a few moments, and I also thought she seemed INTJ. I wonder what she was in real life.

Oberon
02-05-2008, 06:10 PM
Beginning tonight and every Sunday through March 30th from 9 - 11 PM, PBS stations will be broadcasting Masterpiece Theatre's presentations of Jane Austen films.


Mousterpiece Theatre?

INTJMom
02-05-2008, 06:33 PM
Mousterpiece Theatre?That's right, Mousie. ;)

Oberon
02-05-2008, 07:36 PM
That's right, Mousie. ;)

I'm watching for sure. That's more fun than putting tuna on a mousetrap!

cafe
02-05-2008, 08:07 PM
Mousterpiece Theatre?
Monsterpiece Theatre.

http://images.wikia.com/muppet/images/2/2a/Mpiece.alistair.jpg

Oberon
02-05-2008, 08:42 PM
Hey! Isn't that Alistair Cookie?

INTJMom
02-06-2008, 12:57 AM
Yes! It is!
In his after dinner jacket.

cafe
02-06-2008, 01:03 AM
He's good enough for me! :headphne:

Jae Rae
02-07-2008, 06:53 AM
I have to admit I find the 1999 version of Mansfield Park (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0178737/) to be better than the latest version.

We just watched the first episode of the 1980s BBC version. Dreadful. :shock:

Jae Rae

heart
02-07-2008, 06:57 AM
We just watched the first episode of the 1980s BBC version. Dreadful. :shock:

Jae Rae

It is amazing how different the quality of the BBC productions can be. :cry:

INTJMom
02-07-2008, 01:47 PM
We just watched the first episode of the 1980s BBC version. Dreadful. :shock:

Jae RaeThanks for the warning. :smile:

cafe
02-07-2008, 01:58 PM
I hadn't read Northanger Abbey before seeing it on Monsterpiece. My copy arrived yesterday! :D It was on sale!

Jae Rae
02-07-2008, 03:35 PM
It is amazing how different the quality of the BBC productions can be. :cry:


My husband went online after watching all six episodes - he has more tolerance than I do - and read some reviews. Most people said it was dull, but faithful to the book. The 1990s version wasn't faithful to the book, but interesting, exciting and well-made. Most people thought the most recent version on MT to be very unsatifying, with Fanny as something of a feral child, which she wasn't written to be. I saw her portrayed as more of a free spirit who followed her heart, unlike all the other characters, even Edmund, who were bound by societal conventions and appreciation of wealth, class and handsomeness.

Jae Rae

Colors
02-11-2008, 10:27 PM
Pride and Prejudice with Colin Firth this week. Alright, but awfully long. Was it just my TV, or was there than weird radio-like narration all through the first scene? I'm interested enough to catch next week, but I'm not really feeling a particular passion for any of the current plotlines. I get why Mr. Darcy is so grumpy all the time. I'm all that critical too, but doesn't he get tired by being so snarly all the time?

heart
02-11-2008, 10:34 PM
The best Masterpiece Theater versions are the ones with multiple parts, rent off of Netflix and watch all day, get totally immersed in the stories. That's my idea of a great time. :)

I enjoyed the Colin Frith version last night very much. I still am very partial to the 2005 version with Keira Knightley, Matthew MacFadyen, and Donald Sutherland. Both versions have their good points and both well worth watching, jmo. I watched the 2005 version on Sat night so I had a good chance to compare both. I love them both! :) I think Sutherland does a better job of playing her father. The first English country dance scene is better in the 2005 version, one of the best parts of the movie, I enjoy the different perspective of Elizabeth rejecting Darcy in the rain, I also enjoy the part where Elizabeth visits his home and all the collected art work.

MacFadyen gets my vote as th handsomer, more appealing Mr. Darcy, but that's just my opinion.

INTJMom
02-11-2008, 11:42 PM
Pride and Prejudice with Colin Firth this week. Alright, but awfully long. Was it just my TV, or was there than weird radio-like narration all through the first scene? I'm interested enough to catch next week, but I'm not really feeling a particular passion for any of the current plotlines. I get why Mr. Darcy is so grumpy all the time. I'm all that critical too, but doesn't he get tired by being so snarly all the time?No. Apparently, most people think he's an INTJ. They're capable of just staying in a perpetual state of grumpiness.

It might have been just your tv.

I didn't think this version of P & P was cast well. I've seen it 5 or 6 times now, and the mother's voice is enough to prevent me from ever watching it again, even though I really like it a lot. I'm convinced she's just a terrible actress. She wasn't playing her part, she was acting like she was acting. All that high-pitched nasally cackling. :(

INTJMom
02-11-2008, 11:46 PM
The best Masterpiece Theater versions are the ones with multiple parts, rent off of Netflix and watch all day, get totally immersed in the stories. That's my idea of a great time. :)

I enjoyed the Colin Frith version last night very much. I still am very partial to the 2005 version with Keira Knightley, Matthew MacFadyen, and Donald Sutherland. Both versions have their good points and both well worth watching, jmo. I watched the 2005 version on Sat night so I had a good chance to compare both. I love them both! :) I think Sutherland does a better job of playing her father. The first English country dance scene is better in the 2005 version, one of the best parts of the movie, I enjoy the different perspective of Elizabeth rejecting Darcy in the rain, I also enjoy the part where Elizabeth visits his home and all the collected art work.

MacFadyen gets my vote as the handsomer, more appealing Mr. Darcy, but that's just my opinion.I agree with you. I have come to the conclusion that the only thing the 2005 version required to reach perfection is the script from this 1995 version!

heart
02-12-2008, 12:10 AM
This thread needs some squee...thank you unknown people on photobucket...


http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z95/lotr_girl89/darcy.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r108/mundanenoodle/darcy.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e233/peridot_13/Leah/Mr.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t72/merrybell27/Broandsis.jpg

Colors
02-12-2008, 12:23 AM
No. Apparently, most people think he's an INTJ. They're capable of just staying in a perpetual state of grumpiness.

It might have been just your tv.

I didn't think this version of P & P was cast well. I've seen it 5 or 6 times now, and the mother's voice is enough to prevent me from ever watching it again, even though I really like it a lot. I'm convinced she's just a terrible actress. She wasn't playing her part, she was acting like she was acting. All that high-pitched nasally cackling. :(

:yes: She was quite cartoonish. But I did like most of the other actors/actresses pretty much, even if sometimes it was sort of over-the-top (with the unattractive cousin and all). I guess it's supposed to make more clear the humor of the piece?

Mr. Darcy is very INTJ. I was wondering about Elizabeth's type though. EN?p perhaps? I didn't really get a good read on that.

heart
02-12-2008, 12:26 AM
Male INFJ can be just as moody and grumpy and stubborn.

INTJMom
02-12-2008, 12:57 AM
:yes: She was quite cartoonish. But I did like most of the other actors/actresses pretty much, even if sometimes it was sort of over-the-top (with the unattractive cousin and all). I guess it's supposed to make more clear the humor of the piece?

Mr. Darcy is very INTJ. I was wondering about Elizabeth's type though. EN?p perhaps? I didn't really get a good read on that.Elizabeth... I have read that she is INFJ or ENFP.

Well, she's critical of people, quick to judge them, her pride gets somewhat easily wounded (but whose doesn't) she likes frolicking about out of doors, she doesn't care too much about appearances (hem 6 inches deep in mud). She hated Darcy because he ruined her beloved sister's happiness. Is that and F thing? But she would not marry Mr. Collins just to please her mother or secure the financial security of her entire family.

One thing that stands out to me is that Elizabeth is not easily intimidated. I noticed this because she's the opposite of me. She's not intimidated by Lady C., nor by Mr. Darcy coming to hear her play the pianoforte "in all your state" as she says. What type would that be?

Another outstanding characteristic is that she is like her father in that they like to laugh at people's "ridiculous" behavior.

What do you think, heart? INFJ?

heart
02-12-2008, 01:01 AM
My guess ENFJ, she strikes me as extroverted.

Edit to say: I would be curious to hear Pink's opinion.

INTJMom
02-12-2008, 01:03 AM
...
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e233/peridot_13/Leah/Mr.jpg

I really like this photo. I mean I R-E-A-L-L-Y like this photo. :wubbie:
All of a sudden I have closure.
(I hated the ending of the movie!)
This would have made a much better ending!

He should have said "Mrs. Darcy" only 3 times! 4 at the most!

heart
02-12-2008, 01:05 AM
Yes, that is real gift, that picture. :wubbie:

INTJMom
02-12-2008, 01:06 AM
My guess ENFJ, she strikes me as extroverted.Right. I was just thinking about how she was so in touch with her thoughts and feelings when he proposed to her the first time. She had quite a bit to say to him. She wasn't at a loss for words at all.

heart
02-12-2008, 01:08 AM
Right. I was just thinking about how she was so in touch with her thoughts and feelings when he proposed to her the first time. She had quite a bit to say to him. She wasn't at a loss for words at all.


Yes, an introvert would likely do as Darcy did, send the letter later...:blush: :)

heart
02-12-2008, 01:17 AM
My guess for Jane Bennet--- ISFP
Mr. Bennet --- INTJ
Mrs. Bennet --- ESFJ
Mr. Bingley ---- ESFP
Lydia Bennet ---- ESTP
Mr. Darcy --- INFJ (He is just a little too prissy for me to say INTJ!)
Elizabeth Bennet ---ENFJ


Rebuttals are both welcomed and encouraged! :)

Apollonian
02-12-2008, 02:12 AM
I just saw the Jane Austen Book Club yesterday. I highly recommend it as a more modern take on Jane Austen.

... Plus, the guy in the movie bears an uncanny resemblence to me... I mean uncanny. Die-hard science fiction enthusiast, computer scientist, doesn't know what to do with his money, likes women in a sort of innocent/romantic way, and has a sort of edge to him underneath all his social awkwardness. I think he was meant to be an analog to Mr. Knightly from Emma.

Anyway, not to derail the thread, I actually own the Colin Firth P&P and hence have already seen it. As such, I am slightly dissapointed that there isn't more Austen that I have not seen. I have been converted to think it as the better version over the Kyra version. Although, I've heard rumor that there is another version that was featured on the Wishbone television show which I now have to track down.

Apollonian
02-12-2008, 02:29 AM
Mr. Darcy --- INFJ (He is just a little too prissy for me to say INTJ!)


Absolutely no way. Darcy is the absolute epitome of the INTJ.

Who says that INTJs cannot be prissy??? Look at the time period. It was trendy for guys to wear frills and lace, for peats sake! Prissy indeed. You say "prissy" and I say "cultured". Now if a guy wore frills and lace in this day and age...I'm not even going there, since "anachronism" doesn't seem to cover it.

INTJ Qualities of Darcy:
- Brooding nature with a detachment from the immediate social world (first ball)
- Keen insight into the psychology of others (scene where Mrs. Bennett visits when her sister is sick and Darcy analyzes the women's behavior)
- While he has no difficulty in expressing his thoughts on many matters, he has a keen difficulty in expressing his true feelings for Elizebeth until the end of the story
- The letter is characteristic, owing itself to an introverted nature but seething with extroverted Thinking as his TJ-ness shows through in his stubborn desire to defend his actions and his honor despite being openly rejected
- Upon hearing of Mr. Wickham's exploits with Lydia, rather than seeking to console Lizzy, he springs into action, immediately attempting to form a plan which will force Wickham's hand

Basically, I don't see really any point where Darcy exhibits extroverted feeling at all. In fact, most of the point is that Lizzy is flabergasted when he actually does get around to sharing his feelings because she had no idea!

I often have times when I wonder whether I am INFJ, but then I inevitably realize that those are the times when I am alone in introspection and my tertiary trait of introverted Feeling becomes dominant as the first two take a rest. INTJs can be passionate, given the right environment. And I would like to think that INFJ's can be intellectual, given the right prompting and education.

heart
02-12-2008, 02:31 AM
I say he is INFJ because of how much he values social convention as far as her family's social status and manners. That seems totally Fe to me. I just cannot see a INTJ caring that much about such a trifle, where is the logic? INFJ male more prone to using logic to justify Fe motivations as slave to Fe.

When I say prissy, I mean how out of joint he gets because his gal doesn't measure up to some social ideal he values. His brooding has a ticked off at life quality to it, not the cold detachment of an INTJ.

The INFJ's Fe comes through the filter of Ni and male INFJ many times wear an outward mantle of strong stubborness and at times overweening pride to hide their softness and develop Ti to a greater degree to cope with the world. They can have a harder time expressing strong emotions vebally, do much better in the written word. INFJ have just as keen an insight into psychology as INTJ, in fact more so from what I can see.

heart
02-12-2008, 03:03 AM
INFJ - Introverted Intuition with Feeling (http://www.murraystate.edu/secsv/fye/INFJ.htm)




Though they may maneuver themselves to receive affection, INFJs may be quite sparing in dispensing it to others because of their naturally Introverted manner. For the INFJ, talk is cheap, and the resulting sparsity of their communications can have a negative effect on relationships at work and home...

Male INFJs have a more problematic situation because the qualities naturally preferred by INFJs are not those traditionally considered to be "male." To counter the image of being weak, male INFJs can become stubborn, often to a degree disproportionate to he situation at hand.

They are capable of taking a seemingly small issue and making it seem as if the entire world--or at least their masculinity--were riding on the outcome.

The behavior unfortunately belies the fact that both male and female INFJs are reservoirs of quiet, intellectual introspective imagination who can inspire insight and growth in men and women alike. INFJs are often great thinkers whose pondering of the immense can bring great ideas to the forefront.

Typically, they seek to spread their ideas in a quiet, deliberate way--more typically by the pen than by the sword.

INTJMom
02-12-2008, 01:14 PM
Absolutely no way. Darcy is the absolute epitome of the INTJ.

Who says that INTJs cannot be prissy??? Look at the time period. It was trendy for guys to wear frills and lace, for peats sake! Prissy indeed. You say "prissy" and I say "cultured". Now if a guy wore frills and lace in this day and age...I'm not even going there, since "anachronism" doesn't seem to cover it.

INTJ Qualities of Darcy:
- Brooding nature with a detachment from the immediate social world (first ball)
- Keen insight into the psychology of others (scene where Mrs. Bennett visits when her sister is sick and Darcy analyzes the women's behavior)
- While he has no difficulty in expressing his thoughts on many matters, he has a keen difficulty in expressing his true feelings for Elizabeth until the end of the story
- The letter is characteristic, owing itself to an introverted nature but seething with extroverted Thinking as his TJ-ness shows through in his stubborn desire to defend his actions and his honor despite being openly rejected
- Upon hearing of Mr. Wickham's exploits with Lydia, rather than seeking to console Lizzy, he springs into action, immediately attempting to form a plan which will force Wickham's hand

Basically, I don't see really any point where Darcy exhibits extroverted feeling at all. In fact, most of the point is that Lizzy is flabbergasted when he actually does get around to sharing his feelings because she had no idea!

I often have times when I wonder whether I am INFJ, but then I inevitably realize that those are the times when I am alone in introspection and my tertiary trait of introverted Feeling becomes dominant as the first two take a rest. INTJs can be passionate, given the right environment. And I would like to think that INFJ's can be intellectual, given the right prompting and education.I agree with you about Darcy.
I thought perhaps that Darcy could be an ISTJ because of his extreme sense of taking responsibility for what Wickham did.
Also the way the housekeeper describes him as a kind master, never having raised his voice, and good to his tenants.
Whatever. He could be an INTJ with a high S factor.

INTJMom
02-12-2008, 01:27 PM
I say he is INFJ because of how much he values social convention as far as her family's social status and manners. That seems totally Fe to me. I just cannot see a INTJ caring that much about such a trifle, where is the logic? INFJ male more prone to using logic to justify Fe motivations as slave to Fe.

When I say prissy, I mean how out of joint he gets because his gal doesn't measure up to some social ideal he values. His brooding has a ticked off at life quality to it, not the cold detachment of an INTJ.

The INFJ's Fe comes through the filter of Ni and male INFJ many times wear an outward mantle of strong stubborness and at times overweening pride to hide their softness and develop Ti to a greater degree to cope with the world. They can have a harder time expressing strong emotions verbally, do much better in the written word. INFJ have just as keen an insight into psychology as INTJ, in fact more so from what I can see.Ah. I see where you're coming from now.
I don't see him as respecting social convention, not as much as Bingley anyhow.
Wouldn't he have been gracious and danced at the dance if he cared about convention?

The social ideal was inculcated into him from an early age. He was from the rich landowners set. In those days the chasms betweens "classes" were much more significant than they are now. I guess that's why I thought he might have a high "S" factor. He wanted to do the right thing, what he was "expected" to do.

Yet in the end, he could not deny himself the pleasure of being married to a woman he admired for her beauty and for her love of the outdoors, even though her relations were "so far below" his own.

Could an F really say - when they are NOT angry - it's against my better judgment, since I'm so much better than you, but would you marry me? You can't get any more T than that! :blush: Poor thing.
He was just stating facts. Nothing personal. :D

I don't know. Maybe Fs do that, too. If so, I fear I will never be able to tell them apart!

Hirsch63
02-12-2008, 03:53 PM
In Darcy's defense or an explanation of him as I see it...I've read the books and seen some of the film adaptations...

Darcy is "old money" and perhaps in the best sense of that phrase. I think that he takes his fortune and the responsibilities that it entails (politically, socially, economically) very seriously with a long term view...he is a "good master" as far as that society allows. When he is introduced at the dance I see him in the capacity of Bingley's protector. He is genuinely fond of Bingley but sees him as vulnerable (inexperienced?)to others who might take advantage of his gregarious and trusting nature. He knows how open and unsuspecting souls (his sister) can be exploited by crafty predators. I believe he is an introvert that would rather be at home...but feels he must go out to this event out of not only social obligation but the preservation of a dear friend who may not be able to recognize the dangers that he (Darcy) is all too familiar with. I think that he is in an emotional state here: irritated, suspicious and fearful. Austen discloses the predatory nature of "lower class" or economically challenged families through Lizzie' mother...Bingley, Darcy...are indeed targets, and everybody knows it. Who for example could resist Lizzie? Darcy's testiness may be a reaction to just that...he is on high alert and Lizzie with her manner and wit is dangerous. He is used to dodging the usual bullets of cultivated charm and beauty...Lizzie is subversive by her nature and well off his protective radar.

Darcy feels his responsibility deeply, he truly "husbands" his inheritance. He is intolerant of stupidity, vanity and prejudice among the lower classes and his immediate circle. He is intolerant of ignorance...he cannot understand why others can't see what he sees and is impatient with that. No one is excepted from his perceptions and judgements. Darcy is a real tight-ass. He has to be. he has been hurt by not paying attention and being too trusting. And he has seen the results of his late fathers too trusting behaviour with Wickham. Darcy could have cut Wickham off...he knew he should but that would compromise his honor and obligation as he saw it. When he realizes the direct results of this in the later actions of Wickham and the younger Bennet girl he feels duty bound to clean up his mistake (I believe irregardless of Lizzie) which works to the benefit of the woman he so admires.

Darcy is generous with his inheritance to those he percieves as trustworthy. His invitation to Lizzie's companions to use his ponds for fishing, even offering to loan the the equipment is gracious and sincere, despite their social class.

Darcy clearly loves and treasures his sister. I think she could get anything out of him but she is too good natured to do so. I think his mind is constantly dogged by his almost losing her to machinations of Wickham. He seems to treat any other relations with no more (or less) respect than they deserve. And as I mentioned above he witholds himself from Lizzie I believe because he does not trust his own judgement feeling carried away by his emotions when around her. When they are alone at the Inn, and Lizzie reveals what has happened with her sister and Wickham I believe he feels the shadow of his sister's earlier experience fall upon him with full weight. He may feel that his distraction by Lizzie prevented him from seeing this event (his reponsibility he feels) coming thus leaving her family and her exposed by his carelessness.
Console Lizzie at this time? Darcy is a bit clueless...I think he reacted like somone who realizes that they left the iron on at home an hour ago...he has to run back before the house burns down. He trusts Lizzie to "get it" but she sees things from her perfectly reasonable POV.
He is a control freak...he has to be. I think he is more or less psychically worn out from trying to manage so much. No wonder he is crabby. remember the release of tension and relaxed state Darcy is in when he simply dives into the pond in the 1995 version? He is home and for a moment, carefree.

"...and this is what you think of me..." he says at the end of Lizzie's rejection. He sees himself through the eyes of the one he admires...He knows that he is right and doing the best thing...but in one who's wit he so respects he finds his perfectly honorable actions evaluated as something less than. This sets his brain on fire with irritation and pain having Lizzie who he sees as so perceptive, judging him so harshly. He cannot let go of his position (pride), and trusts her to see his reasonable behaviour reflected in the explanation his letter to her provides. He is hurt and embarrassed and again, at a loss because he couldn't keep all the balls in the air at once. When he discloses himself to Lizzie...he is putting his heart, mind and his inheritance(in its truest sense) all at risk and he is fully aware that he is beyond the rational control that he generally exercises in every aspect of his life. The sheer force of her personality overwhelms all his experience and common sense...He is stunned having exposed himself so plainly to be so violently rebuffed. Basically because he is a bit inept at speaking for his own heart's self interest...which is also embarassing.

Boy, my posts are a bit long...Thanks for tolerating them.

INTJMom
02-12-2008, 07:46 PM
...remember the release of tension and relaxed state Darcy is in when he simply dives into the pond in the 1995 version? He is home and for a moment, carefree. ...Thank you for your essay.
You didn't mention what type you thought he was.

In the book, he does not dive into a pond, or practice sword-fighting.
As a matter of fact, we hardly know him at all except for what the housekeeper says, and what he does about Lydia.

Since Austen created him, I think the only true and accurate source of information about him is the book, not the films.

Jae Rae
02-12-2008, 09:46 PM
I don't see Mr. Bennet as an INTJ. He mostly keeps to his library, reading and appreciating his two older daughters. He's not openly critical of people, even Darcy, though he makes fun of them. He's a very Rational man; INTJs seem more emotional to me than that.

I see him as more of a P than a J. Eg, he avoids taking a stand with Lydia; rather than forbidding her to go to Brighton, he avoids a confrontation and hopes for the best. If we assume he's INTP, his wife would be his opposite, as she certainly seems to be - social, opinionated, engineering meetings between her daughters and eligible men, "a woman with a mission." Her husband is much more likely to let things develop and only deal with them when absolutely necessary.

When proved wrong, he swings all the way over to the other side - "no officers will be ever be allowed in town." That feels like a very familiar INTP pattern to me. And an INTJ who said he wasn't allowing Lydia and Wickham into his home after their cobbled-together marriage would really mean it.

Jae Rae

heart
02-12-2008, 11:06 PM
Ah. I see where you're coming from now.
I don't see him as respecting social convention, not as much as Bingley anyhow.
Wouldn't he have been gracious and danced at the dance if he cared about convention?

The social ideal was inculcated into him from an early age. He was from the rich landowners set. In those days the chasms betweens "classes" were much more significant than they are now. I guess that's why I thought he might have a high "S" factor. He wanted to do the right thing, what he was "expected" to do.

Yet in the end, he could not deny himself the pleasure of being married to a woman he admired for her beauty and for her love of the outdoors, even though her relations were "so far below" his own.

Could an F really say - when they are NOT angry - it's against my better judgment, since I'm so much better than you, but would you marry me? You can't get any more T than that! :blush: Poor thing.
He was just stating facts. Nothing personal. :D

I don't know. Maybe Fs do that, too. If so, I fear I will never be able to tell them apart!


I think an F who truly felt that they were in danger of being preyed upon or that they had no control over the situation. Male NF feel at a loss in the world because of their soft natures, they learn early to use stubbornness and pride as a defense against being taken advantage of or thought as a weak. They will try to use their inferior T to deal with the world and because it is inferior it often comes accross as a very negative shadow. For the INFJ this would be Ti, very critical and nitpicky, prone to supporting Fe type biases in a negative way. Fe decides who is to be made to feel included in a group but remember the opposite of this is also who is not to be made to feel included in a group.

Darcy is a man who is not in control, he loves and wants a woman who does not meet with his social class expectations. He is aware of the benefit to her to accept his proposal even if she cares nothing for him and he may get used and abused as a result because of his weakness/softness towards her. He cannot feel anything but at a disadvantage in that situation, so yes I think he might still hide behind the mantle of pride. "Okay, so I do love you but....."

I conceede to JayRae about the father likely being P rather than J.

Hirsch63
02-12-2008, 11:08 PM
I don't feel qualified to offer an opinion on these personality traits in the form of a type...I know that there are plenty of forum members much more skilled at that than I would be. I simply offer my observations.

Hirsch63
02-12-2008, 11:19 PM
...and additionally, I did not realize in a thread titled Jane Austen-Masterpiece Theater that my observations would have to be limited to Austen's written word... I thought that this was a discussion of portrayals of Austen's characters; in both her own original writings and the subsequent recent dramatic interpretations that seemed to be the subject most discussed on this thread.

If a scholarly interpretation of character types is to be compiled, using the best available information both on Austen and MBTI, I must apologize for falling far short of the qualifications necessary for such an endeavour.

Jae Rae
02-12-2008, 11:33 PM
My guess for Jane Bennet--- ISFP
Mr. Bennet --- INTJ
Mrs. Bennet --- ESFJ
Mr. Bingley ---- ESFP
Lydia Bennet ---- ESTP
Mr. Darcy --- INFJ (He is just a little too prissy for me to say INTJ!)
Elizabeth Bennet ---ENFJ


Rebuttals are both welcomed and encouraged! :)

Kitty Bennet - ISFJ
Mary Bennet - ISTJ
Charlotte Lucas - INTP
Catherine de Bourgh - ENTJ
Lizzie's aunt (Gardiner) - INFP

Jae Rae

heart
02-12-2008, 11:39 PM
...and additionally, I did not realize in a thread titled Jane Austen-Masterpiece Theater that my observations would have to be limited to Austen's written word... I thought that this was a discussion of portrayals of Austen's characters; in both her own original writings and the subsequent recent dramatic interpretations that seemed to be the subject most discussed on this thread.

If a scholarly interpretation of character types is to be compiled, using the best available information both on Austen and MBTI, I must apologize for falling far short of the qualifications necessary for such an endeavour.

I highly enjoyed reading your longer post and very happy to see someone take such enjoyment in discussing the issues.

INTJMom
02-12-2008, 11:40 PM
I don't see Mr. Bennet as an INTJ. He mostly keeps to his library, reading and appreciating his two older daughters. He's not openly critical of people, even Darcy, though he makes fun of them. He's a very Rational man; INTJs seem more emotional to me than that.

I see him as more of a P than a J. Eg, he avoids taking a stand with Lydia; rather than forbidding her to go to Brighton, he avoids a confrontation and hopes for the best. If we assume he's INTP, his wife would be his opposite, as she certainly seems to be - social, opinionated, engineering meetings between her daughters and eligible men, "a woman with a mission." Her husband is much more likely to let things develop and only deal with them when absolutely necessary.

When proved wrong, he swings all the way over to the other side - "no officers will be ever be allowed in town." That feels like a very familiar INTP pattern to me. And an INTJ who said he wasn't allowing Lydia and Wickham into his home after their cobbled-together marriage would really mean it.

Jae RaeI agree. INTP or perhaps INFP.

I think Mrs. Bennett is an ESTP or perhaps ESFP. I don't know those types well.
She's "silly" in her husband's opinion, and he's lost all respect for her.

INTJMom
02-12-2008, 11:44 PM
...and additionally, I did not realize in a thread titled Jane Austen-Masterpiece Theater that my observations would have to be limited to Austen's written word... I thought that this was a discussion of portrayals of Austen's characters; in both her own original writings and the subsequent recent dramatic interpretations that seemed to be the subject most discussed on this thread.

If a scholarly interpretation of character types is to be compiled, using the best available information both on Austen and MBTI, I must apologize for falling far short of the qualifications necessary for such an endeavour.So sorry. You are quite right.
This thread was originally started to discuss the Masterpiece Theatre presentations that are playing every week in Jan through March.

I was being too much of a purist, I guess, as usual.

And with an avatar like that, you are certainly more than welcome!! :wubbie:

heart
02-12-2008, 11:48 PM
I agree. INTP or perhaps INFP.

I think Mrs. Bennett is an ESTP or perhaps ESFP. I don't know those types well.
She's "silly" in her husband's opinion, and he's lost all respect for her.

I think she's ESFJ, she reminds me of some I have known. From this book I read about the games types play, she seems to play the worrying game very well. So have the ESFJ I am thinking of.

Jae Rae
02-12-2008, 11:51 PM
So sorry. You are quite right.
This thread was originally started to discuss the Masterpiece Theatre presentations that are playing every week in Jan through March.

I was being too much of a purist, I guess, as usual.

I was typing according to the 1995 A&E version of Pride & Prejudice, which to my mind is the superior dramatization. I've read the book but don't remember enough to go by that.

Jae Rae

INTJMom
02-13-2008, 12:28 AM
I think she's ESFJ, she reminds me of some I have known. From this book I read about the games types play, she seems to play the worrying game very well. So have the ESFJ I am thinking of.Well, I guess I was buying into the stereotype of the "silly" SP female.
She's also conniving and manipulative the way she makes Jane go to Netherfield, knowing it will rain, that Jane will get sick, that they'll be obliged to keep her there, etc.

She is shallow-minded because she was all worried about Lydia running away until she found out Lydia was going to get married. Marriage fixed everything. She wasn't embarrassed about the way in which her daughter's "scandalously patched up marriage" shone a bad light on the family reputation.

I just think of SJs as socially proper people. They are the traditionalists. The stalwarts of society.

heart
02-13-2008, 12:38 AM
Well, I guess I was buying into the stereotype of the "silly" SP female.
She's also conniving and manipulative the way she makes Jane go to Netherfield, knowing it will rain, that Jane will get sick, that they'll be obliged to keep her there, etc.

She is shallow-minded because she was all worried about Lydia running away until she found out Lydia was going to get married. Marriage fixed everything. She wasn't embarrassed about the way in which her daughter's "scandalously patched up marriage" shone a bad light on the family reputation.

I just think of SJs as socially proper people. They are the traditionalists. The stalwarts of society.

The appreance of being proper is very important, but if they have negative traits, they can be very improper in private, they can lead double lives, especially for F with T shadow. jmo. I have had trouble typing my MIL because her external persona with strangers is very different from the side the family knows. It can be so confusing.

BTW, it is her worrying and cries of "nerves" that most makes me want to say ESFJ because of my experiences with them, but I could be wrong in her case of course. I think an ESFP might be more relaxed about the marry well bit too. Lack of proper education in culture might effect how well an SJ adheres to the external standard, they can only adhere as they understand it to be. Any type can be affected by lack of basic perspective on themselves (neurotic) and how they relate to others as well I am thinking. She might well have been ESFP.

(Warning, I am being NP here, exploring the idea for the sheer sake of exploring. I am not married to any of my guesses here, enjoying hearing other pov.)

Hirsch63
02-13-2008, 04:03 AM
Well, see if you can wrap your mind around this: Mrs. Bennett in virtually every respect, resembles my mother.

I am not kidding. I greatly sympathize with Lizzie and Mr. Bennett.

The irony of this is that when all these Austen dramatizations started to air...Mom fell absolutely in love with them to the point of obsession. She could not even see herself in Mrs. Bennett...It was mind-bending.

Of course I would not want to see myself as Mr. Collins....and perhaps I am closest to him in many ways though I would like to be indentified with just about anyone else. At least he is focused.

INTJMom
02-13-2008, 11:11 AM
Well, see if you can wrap your mind around this: Mrs. Bennett in virtually every respect, resembles my mother.

I am not kidding. I greatly sympathize with Lizzie and Mr. Bennett.

The irony of this is that when all these Austen dramatizations started to air...Mom fell absolutely in love with them to the point of obsession. She could not even see herself in Mrs. Bennett...It was mind-bending.

Of course I would not want to see myself as Mr. Collins....and perhaps I am closest to him in many ways though I would like to be identified with just about anyone else. At least he is focused.I would find it hard to believe anyone would actually be like Mr. Collins. I don't think you have to worry about that.

INTJMom
02-13-2008, 11:31 AM
Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen. Search, Read, Study, Discuss. (http://www.online-literature.com/austen/prideprejudice/)

Just as a talking point, I thought I would quote this piece from the book. This is the only insight into Mr & Mrs Bennet's relationship we get, in a large chunk anyway. I highlighted the parts that give insight into Mrs. Bennet. Maybe it might help give us insight into her type.


"Chapter 42
HAD Elizabeth's opinion been all drawn from her own family, she could not have formed a very pleasing picture of conjugal felicity or domestic comfort. Her father, captivated by youth and beauty, and that appearance of good humour which youth and beauty generally give, had married a woman whose weak understanding and illiberal mind had, very early in their marriage, put an end to all real affection for her. Respect, esteem, and confidence had vanished for ever; and all his views of domestic happiness were overthrown. But Mr. Bennet was not of a disposition to seek comfort, for the disappointment which his own imprudence had brought on, in any of those pleasures which too often console the unfortunate for their folly or their vice. He was fond of the country and of books; and from these tastes had arisen his principal enjoyments. To his wife he was very little otherwise indebted, than as her ignorance and folly had contributed to his amusement. This is not the sort of happiness which a man would in general wish to owe to his wife; but where other powers of entertainment are wanting, the true philosopher will derive benefit from such as are given.
Elizabeth, however, had never been blind to the impropriety of her father's behaviour as a husband. She had always seen it with pain; but respecting his abilities, and grateful for his affectionate treatment of herself, she endeavoured to forget what she could not overlook, and to banish from her thoughts that continual breach of conjugal obligation and decorum which, in exposing his wife to the contempt of her own children, was so highly reprehensible. But she had never felt so strongly as now the disadvantages which must attend the children of so unsuitable a marriage, nor ever been so fully aware of the evils arising from so ill-judged a direction of talents; talents which rightly used, might at least have preserved the respectability of his daughters, even if incapable of enlarging the mind of his wife."


By the way, in Webster's 1828 definition, illiberal meant something different than it does today.

1. Not noble; not ingenuous; of a contracted mind. Cold in charity; in religion, illiberal.

2. Not candid; uncharitable in judging.

3. Not generous; not munificent; sparing of gifts.

4. Not becoming a well bred man.

5. Not pure; not well authorized or elegant; as illiberal words in Latin.

Jae Rae
02-13-2008, 09:55 PM
Of possible interest to the Austenphiles:

Jane Austen Society - Northern California Region (http://www.jasnanorcal.org/)

Jae Rae

Jae Rae
02-13-2008, 10:13 PM
Here's another link:

Miladies, milords, this way for the Austen party (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/13/DDICV0H14.DTL&hw=jane+austen&sn=001&sc=1000)

The Jane Austen Society has been meeting in San Francisco. Although I'm not a JASNA member, I attended the last SF meeting in 1997 and it was really fun, with lectures about her books, exhibits, and lots of folks dressed in period costume.

Jae Rae

heart
02-13-2008, 11:00 PM
Well, see if you can wrap your mind around this: Mrs. Bennett in virtually every respect, resembles my mother.

I am not kidding. I greatly sympathize with Lizzie and Mr. Bennett.

The irony of this is that when all these Austen dramatizations started to air...Mom fell absolutely in love with them to the point of obsession. She could not even see herself in Mrs. Bennett...It was mind-bending.

Of course I would not want to see myself as Mr. Collins....and perhaps I am closest to him in many ways though I would like to be indentified with just about anyone else. At least he is focused.


I would find it hard to believe anyone would actually be like Mr. Collins. I don't think you have to worry about that.


DO you have an elegant benefactress? :thelook:

Hirsch63
02-13-2008, 11:12 PM
Alas, Our Master has not yet favoured me with the condescension of one elegant enough to sustain me in my vocation.

heart
02-13-2008, 11:24 PM
Alas, Our Master has not yet favoured me with the condescension of one elegant enough to sustain me in my vocation.

That is truly a pity, sir. :cry:

INTJMom
02-14-2008, 12:20 AM
Of possible interest to the Austenphiles:

Jane Austen Society - Northern California Region (http://www.jasnanorcal.org/)

Jae RaeThanks. I just finished reading a lengthy article in praise of Charlotte Lucas with which I heartily agreed.

TheSmox
02-19-2008, 01:40 AM
I'm taking my spin on P & P as per heart's instruction. I've yet to read the rest of the posts so I shall in a while :D This is Pt.1 (yea, long drivel abounds!)

I shall speak of these peope only:
Lizzy = INFJ
Jane = INFP
Mr. Darcy = INTJ (though I mention him briefly)

I think it was in a "What Type is Lizzy and Darcy?" thread that got me interested. I couldn't comment as I hadn't registered yet and when I did I think the thread died. heart assured me you guys are running strong, so here I jump in with my spinning visions! :devil:

I vaguelly recall the thread comments (initially) in believing P & P's Lizzy as being remarked probably an ENFJ and Mr. Darcy as INTJ but I found Lizzy to look like a typical INFJ who's too biased, exterts their feelings wrongly onto others (Mr. Darcy, Charolette, Wickham, Jane) and sympathizes (not empathizes) too easily as Lizzy did with Mr. Wickham. Wickham quickly hashed out stories and so easily upon meeting her that she just JUMPED (Ni can't process when Fe is overwhelmed!) to feel sorry and she held bias (Fi) for Mr. Darcy for slighting her. Never mind her (Fe-ing) her bias onto misunderstanding him and the intentions/feelings of other's.

So, Mr. Wickham looked "Oh, so perfectly right and sincere, why would he lie?! He's the victim!" until she started listening to other's POVs, including her much wiser (albiet, I feel, too naive) INFP sister Jane. When she was able to stop her "Fe" from reacting so fast to Wickham's "Fe" or that of another's, her Ni was able to breathe and think again of the possibilities of differing events ("What really/might've happened?") that she'd lived up to that whole year. She needed the input of other's because INFJ's Last Demonically evil Cognitive Process is Introverted Sensing, so memory retention and recall can be hard unless directed towards others (Fe).

When she went on the trip with her Aunt and Uncle, that was another revelatory session for her. Her Ni pieced/connected it all out because she could "think clearly w/o distraction" + was away from the "Fe-ing Force" of Wickham + others! An INFJ can't concentrate on their thoughts/feelings when they become too intensely fixated on others and has already developed bias against the "Mean Attacker" for the "poor victim" as they want to listen and connect with this person.

INFJ gone mad with prejudice can be seen easily as it's demonstrated when they're overpowered by Extroverted Feeling and not allowing their Introverted Intuition enough time to process it all thus bias can be easily formed. The problem is, sometimes, people can't believe b/c the INFJ is normally "Clear-headed", so they look OOC. I don't know where I found people saying Lizzy's sister Jane is an INFP but I somtimes think it's too crazy or maybe just about right if Jane is an evolved INFP...I think Jane is so silly and frustrating and I wanna hug her happiness in not having bias, however naive it is!!! :D IMHO, an INFP will not fall into bias easily because they take a long time in figuring the feelings of other's as well as their own. They will be more careful in determining the feelings of others privately in their headand work to prove them right or wrong. INFJs (Lizzy) will 'right away' work to prove if a person is trusting or not. It can be hard for both to change their minds once determined their ideas are right.

-cont'd in Pt.2

heart
02-19-2008, 01:43 AM
I found Lizzy to look like a typical INFJ who's too biased, exterts their feelings wrongly onto others (Mr. Darcy, Charolette, Wickham, Jane) and sympathizes (not empathizes) too easily as Lizzy did with Mr. Wickham. Wickham quickly hashed out stories and so easily upon meeting her that she just JUMPED (Ni can't process when Fe is overwhelmed!) to feel sorry and she held bias (Fi) for Mr. Darcy for slighting her. Never mind her (Fe-ing) her bias onto misunderstanding him and the intentions/feelings of other's.

Good agrument for her being INFJ. :)

TheSmox
02-19-2008, 02:11 AM
cont'd from Pt1.

Lizzy = INFJ
Jane = INFP
Mr. Darcy = INTJ

Jane might truly be an INFP who has landed on the other side of the fence and will not allow bias to form at all b/c they fear it--fear criticising a loved one or someone they're falling in love with. Jane was too focused on taking the only info she received (as she was isolated for a long time from Bingley and his sisters) which INFPs can do if they don't get a chance to learn more (Ne can't do it!). That's where the "Rose Coloured Glasses" can come in (same with INFJs towards their "visions" of people such as Lizzy).

I've realised Jane was openly treated nicely by the wicked sisters of Mr. Bingley and it was probably due to her bias (yes, good bias) for Bingley that she found his relations as just like him. She didn't see Lizzy or couldn't hear any stubtlety against her sister being treated unfairly (Ne? Nope) because she wasn't really around to see it. And convo b/w the sisters in her presence as well as Lizzy's always focused on her and how sweet she was (to Lizzy's rolling eyes of being ignored + sis getting suckered) So, it was all about how they treated her (Fi) that she could infer at the time. It wasn't until later she took of the Rosey Glasses and crushed them into the ground...softly.

INFP Jane held a lot of recollection of the events and kept putting Lizzy back in CHECK (Si being stronger for INFPs than INFJs). INFJ Lizzy wouldn't listen to her and in a nice 'arrogant' way would say "Oh, Jane, you're just too nice. You want to think or recall it that way, that's not what happened, you're mistaken, my dear! I saw it ALL!" but Jane DID have better memory + better perspective for Lizzy, just not for herself at the time due to the Rosey view.

Another thing I noticed is in how Jane was implied to be better able in handling the kids. INFPs have Ne as their 2nd Cognitive Process so they can focus on the talkative enviornment better than an INFJ (Lizzy) can. Kids can be so overwhelming with possibilities and neverending questions. While appreciated, I'm sure it would be, by Lizzy, she'd likely not be able to "focus" b/c it's too much info. The kids adore Jane probably b/c she can "keep up" with them and zoom along for the ride. INFJs like to ask a lot sure, but they need to make comment from what you say. Then direct the convo with the next question once you've suficiently answered them. Noticed how Lizzy asked people what she wanted? She was always very direct when sure and less direct when unsure. Even wrongly direct in telling people about her half-envisioned assumptions and refusing to listen when it differed from her own (wasn't until a believed "trusted" servant could speak so openly about Darcy and briefly hint a bad apple in Wickham.).

INFP Jane was WRONGLY mispercieved as not being interested by INTJ Mr. Darcy because she was too subtle in showing her affections. INTJs can be horrible at subtetly as well as INFJs unless they know the person well, sometimes. INTJs distrust "feelings" of other's or it makes them uncomfortable (unless developed/evolved). He didn't know Jane b/c she was so quiet and his friend always "appeared" (based off exp.) in being flighty with women he fancied. Because he COULD hear the idoicy of Jane's mother touting "She's always been the most beautiful, she was bound to marry herself WAY UP there!" He believed that, in order to protect his friend, that he would crush the idea out of Bingley. It's the same as with his sister's incident. He wanted Wickham AWAY from his sister so as not to 'influence' her with his insincere feelings for her. Just as he believe Jane's feelings insincere due to the "appearances" of her family, baring Lizzy.

Jane was just gauging Mr. Bingley's feelings for her (Fi) and not wanting to show she was "falling" too fast because she was afraid of getting hurt if it didn't work out. She was NOT aware of the outer environment from other's chattering (Ne) whenever engaged with him. During the one ball (2nd?), Mr. Bingley and she were close and quiet in a corner. She was soaking up all he told her (Ne) in order to 'feel' him out (Fi). It was the ball where INTJ Darcy commented on not liking women who acted slighted by men or something like that (towards Lizzy as he knew she was listening).

-cont'd in Pt3

heart
02-19-2008, 02:21 AM
I still think Jane is ISFP (http://www.personalitypage.com/ISFP_rel.html). I don't see evidence that she is N.

Children drive me batty. ;)

TheSmox
02-19-2008, 02:30 AM
I still think Jane is ISFP (http://www.personalitypage.com/ISFP_rel.html). I don't see evidence that she is N.

Children drive me batty. ;)

I briefly read that ISFJs don't like to share their opinions with other's. Lizzy was entirely opininated about everything and enjoyed sharing them with other's, to help or to put down.

I also read that they feel overshadowed or overlooked and tread on by others. Lizzy has always been confident, even erroneously, as she has always "looked ahead". She'd predict what would happen if you "do this" (Don't let Lydia go! Mistake will happen!). She never once looked treaded to me but always fiercely held her ground or naturally held her ground.

ISFJs have positive outlooks in life. Not to say INFJs don't but they like knowing anything can happen (as did Lizzy frequently tout as her 'predictions' would come true and then "See father, I was right!" And I read that ISFJs they defer to their mates in relationships. At not time did it appear Lizzy took anyone else's clues but her own or listented when they differed from her own 'vision'.

But I shall continue in Pt.3 :devil:

heart
02-19-2008, 02:32 AM
I see evidence for N in Lizzie but not Jane. I said think Jane is ISFP. ;) :hug:

Yes, I totally agree Lizzie definately not ISFJ.

TheSmox
02-19-2008, 02:52 AM
-cont'd from Pt.3

Lizzy = INFJ
Jane = INFP
Mr. Darcy = INTJ

During all balls, while Jane was only focused on Mr. Bingely, it was the opposite for Lizzy. Even when Bingley wasn't around, Jane could focus quietly in her own mind. Opposite with Lizzy. Even when she was entirely focused on Wickham's gratuitous display of Fe against her Ni's reasoning, it's due to being bombarded, not b/c she was trying to gauge his feelings for her (at the time.

During the balls exlucding Wickham, Lizzy was entirely focused on all incoming info (Se is a nightmare for INFJs if not developed well) and it can distort and stop Ni from moving forward as usual. At the ball where she was slighted by Darcy: she could spot Darcy saying this, hear Jane doing that ("Oh splendid!"), find her mother acting this ("Stop embarrassing us!") and sister's doing that "Have you no shame!?!"), tried getting her dad to intervene "Why aren't you doing anything, you're the boss!!!" so it all bombarded her Se into her Fe lamenting that her family was making themselves + her/Jane look Foolish! And...INFJs care oh so very much about 'appearances' for themselves and that of other's close to them. When they see it, they wanna DO something to correct it (right or wrong)!! When Lizzy laments it's her family's fault for ruining Jane's chances, she saw it as their character having influenced other's to ridicule the family(their stupid Fe)---but consequently, in her POV, it reflected wrongly onto her and Jane as well (Fi angry for self and Fe angry for Jane. Recall her reproaching her dad about it?). INFJ Lizzy constantly wants to direct/control the appearance of the family only [I]once they started making them all look bad. Before? She knew they're deficiencies and didn't mind it b/c it hadn't been too seriously misconstrued in society. It was when her younger sisters became too much to handle for her as she couldn't 'direct/focus' on all of them at once (Se nightmare) "Where are they? What are they doing? STOP!".She'd become frustrated and vent to Jane how idiotic they all were but Jane was more humble about the bad personalities of the family "It's okay, they'll learn in time as we did...You have to leave them be in order for their own common sense to develop."

At Lizzy's best, in the end, when she is able reproach Darcy's Aunt 'against the social conventions she pays mind of if not entirely respects', she didn't want to speak of her personal feelings to his Aunt "None of your business, it's too personal." and she didn't want to speak of HIS feelings either (she became respectful of 'personal space' again + still sensitive to all that he did and meant to her). Even though it was ON THE SPOT and rattled her fiercely, because she'd been peering + piecing all not so long ago, she knew exactly what she wanted to say and stopped "appearing" so acceptable to Darcy's Aunt. I recall her "trying" to be when she didn't want to play the piano but did so anyway so as not to be rude. As Darcy's Aunt criticised HER for HER family (Ican berate them, NOT anyone else and ESP. YOU, thankyou!), her character + and entire social class was a low blow. Someone like that snivelling cousin might enjoy it but not INFJ Lizzy. INFP Jane might've been alarmed and retreated or BLEW UP ('bout time..if it happened) but as she didn't know that Aunt, she'd have probably just dismissed and figured "erroneous" thinking "You don't know my family like I do. Their issues are their own. Leave them be."). Had INFJ Lizzy not known her and was blasted, she'd have attacked back ("I know my family is messed up but they are MINE to correct, not yours!"). That's why I also think Jane was more allowing of stupid Lydia to go away ("to learn a mistake if so") but Lizzy wouldn't allow it already foreseeing disaster (for Lydia + all family) and wanted to ensure image + propriety of Lydia("can't make a mistake, won't let you") Lizzy's trusted Dad not listening was upsetting as he should KNOW how trustworthy and valid her opinions are as he's taken them before!

INFP Jane took the chance in trying to meet him in London but Wicked Sister 1 gave her the runaround and was rude to her. She realised she was too biased in favour of Mr. Bingley by seeing that if HE is nice then his SISTERS who were nice to HER (from the beginning) were not as nice as she thought. She then tells her sister how much of a "bitch" they must've really been to pretend to be so nice (k, not the word but you know) and to thwart her.

Both can have biases though. An INFP will be more biased with their feelings. An INFJ will be more biased with their 'visions' (not psychic--) but what they envision for the 'future' for others and themselves once figured out.

INTJs and INFJs are very much mirror opposities. All CProcesses are the same except with regards to T vs F. This is why both Lizzy and Darcy were so stuck on their visions of the other. Darcy snapped himself out of it much sooner, probably because he had less to deal with. And he could disengage his 'hurt feelings' in order to gain logical perspective (much harder for INFJ Lizzy). He realised he had "info" and knew of Mr. Wickham's real character, whereas Lizzy didn't, since the SOB nearly ruined his beloved baby sister's life. Which is why he knew he had to 'get him away' from his sister so her feelings wouldn't be bombarded (Fe) by him. He wisened that Lizzy wouldn't listen after the big blow up b/c both had repressed their true feelings for the other. Though, it might be said that Lizzy realised she had an "attraction" to him but b/c she knew how he felt, she delivered the lowest blow she could "I had already determined(predicted) that you were the last man on Earth that I'd ever deign to put myself in marriage with!". INFJs can be very cruel and attack you for 'revenge' in the name of 'justice' for having wronged them or their loved ones. Even though INTJ Darcy kept his sensitive "opinions" on her social status, he knew that logically it was BAD for him to marry her and he kept trusting that logic throughout until he could no longer justify it. "To hell with societal pressure, I hated my entire life anyway! I want a real person who'll challenge me!" His being forthcoming about 'proposal's end' was not done in a 'nice' manner (too charged) so it would've been misunderstood as it was. "The greed of your mother and even father, stupid sisters, just all of you except ___ + ___ <--she can't hear the exception of herself and that of Jane being 'decent', she's just focusing on "all of them" being attacked and lumped. Even if nicely said, WHO proposes in the way he did? A socially awkward INTJ might! so once rejected! they now try to explain what they always 'knew' but didn't want to say to 'protect' you, loved one, but look what you made them do anyway!

INTJs and INFJs don't like telling extremely personal things to other's, an INTJ even more so. While an INFJ seems to be doing so, and they somewhat are, it's the not deepest of their feelings b/c they hold that back for safekeeping. They'll know YOUR feelings and YOUR feelings but rarely understand theirs. They sometimes, if emotionally unhealthy, take on the projected feelings of other's and believe it 'matches' theirs when they haven't even thought things through. As Lizzy did with Wickham. Subtlety, as I mentioned is bad for INTJs/INFJs, so when Darcy tried relaying in a subtle way to Lizzy and it backfired b/c she detected but couldn't believe it (too subtle), he had to be more direct via The Full Disclosure Letter. Direct and he 'figured' her out at that point, that his trying to 'observe' her as close as possible was too awkward and that he wasn't good at speaking his thoughts so writing would be better to bypass her just Fe-ing all over him again (his Ni = "Lesson learned. Apply Better Tactics in way that Bypasses screaming Fe."

I realise I sound entirely too certain lol So sorry for sounding that way. And I knew it may look like I'm biased as I'm an INFJ BUT...I originally loathed Lizzy and thought "Too overbearing! To bossy! Too easily duped by emotions!" until it struck me (during a recent argument) how I can devolve into a similiar pattern and have. INTJ Darcy seems very likely to me. INFP Jane, I was the most uncertain of as she's TOO PASSIVE and even INFPs have their bloody limits!! :D Feel free to dissect my arguments :D

heart
02-19-2008, 03:01 AM
I realise I sound entirely too certain lol So sorry for sounding that way.

No need to apololgize, this is all SERIOUS business. It is okay to support your own thesis with certainity in the debate. ;)

I tend to agree with your estimation of Lizzie as INFJ, but I have a problem as either Jay or Mom brought up (I think it was Mom) that she was so ready with a verbal response to Darcy. Do you think that is possible for INFJ?

An imature INFP could very well be that passive without well developed Ne but she could also be ISFP without well developed Se. I have trouble with an INFP falling in love easily with a man who claims to not read, but that is just me.

TheSmox
02-19-2008, 03:55 AM
No need to apololgize, this is all SERIOUS business. It is okay to support your own thesis with certainity in the debate. ;)

I tend to agree with your estimation of Lizzie as INFJ, but I have a problem as either Jay or Mom brought up (I think it was Mom) that she was so ready with a verbal response to Darcy. Do you think that is possible for INFJ?

Are you KIDDING me! :devil: She'd been "storing up" all that negative info about him that it became easy to just "spew it out" instead of think of it in the moment. I can't recall if I mentioned it in my thread or if I'm going to lol. There's a misconception about INFJs/INTJs not being able to speak eloquently as they 'can't gather' their thoughts if Ni is bombarded by other people/places. This can be true, but if pushed on a topic they've already 'slaved over', this applies to Darcy too, they can react with that and just shove it all out via BAD Fi to incite the person in question. There's also the misconception that INFPs have nothing to say or are so floaty/flighty (you've been reading my observations, right?;), so you know I most 100% dispute that...or you know now :D ). It also depends upon rearing + circumstance + education. If THRUST out to speak or encourage they do well, they may develop nicely at a younger age. I did! ...sometimes...no improv until now! But that's based off of info that's still stored, ask me to do poetry on the spot? Easy. Ask me to make a joke? I'll freeze. I make jokes w/o realising. I did Broadcasting (:cry:) during my uni break and we'd have live On-Air broadcasts to improve us. I ALWAYS chose to do the reading news + w/e was on paper. I NEVER ONCE did the "on-air live", I didn't know why it freaked me out and when people pushed me to try, I said "I'm much better helping you in the control room.(So I did that too and pushed err buttons :D).

INFJs can ask and ask and ask after 'waiting' so they can comment and offer up Ni's insights to help others (you've noticed by now that I keep asking and wanting your input for INFPs, right, heart?;) ). It can also happen when pushed in anger Ni works FAST! (and will spew forth) having wrongly taken info via Fe which when screamed out can really blast another person. To the person, the INFJ knew exactly what buttons to break and where to push them over the cliff. Some INFJs joke about paranoia but if they've been attacked or ridiculed before, they CAN retain that info of what they'd like to say as it relates to Fe-ing a person in specific(not a place/#s/names). It's the same for when INFPs observe to take in info, INFJs take some info in to store it for the future (sometimes random things to), for good scenarios or bad scenarios. They keep being touted as oh so sweet and 'nice' 'giving', and yes they can be, but if emotionally unhealthy, they can be as easily unfogiving, manipulative and dicating as say...a Hitler?

I know the INFJ Hitler thing is either hated by INFJs or 'accepted' as 'possible' by INFJs, not so sure, but if IIIII had a vision and I wanted it carried out, I'd use my 'observations' to erroneously help others into my way of thinking b/c Ti has slaved away in making sure I got the facts down and the info memorized (in relation to people, it's stronger), so that when I must, I'll know what to say and HOW to say it.

If you look at his fantacism on "appearance" "being the right way", it can also possibly be derived from his illegimate roots (shame from society!) + being rejected by society (more shame!) to which he TRIED fitting in. He TRIED getting a Jewish woman but she rejected him for her religion (if true, I forget:(). "So, that's what you find sacred, huh? I'll destroy all of it til you can't love it anymore b/c you denied ME!"

...not that I believe him an INFJ. I know he's a Taurus...and so am I...so I am doomed even if he's not an INFJ! :doh: I should probably not make him look like a paranoid, ever future envisioning, Fe-ing bastard who twisted the structure of society around him to make it seem he was being nice by bettering it for everyone else and turning people into his loyal cult-like followers always entrusting his inflated ego like a very very very naughty INFJ....!:devil:


An imature INFP could very well be that passive without well developed Ne but she could also be ISFP without well developed Se. I have trouble with an INFP falling in love easily with a man who claims to not read, but that is just me.

Are you still speaking on Lizzy or on Jane? I think Jane, so I shall choose her. I had trouble with her not showing enough awareness for bias. But INFPs (and others) learn from experience. She had never, as most of the family, been surrounded by corruption or the influences of London Town so she may have just been filled with the fantasies of it. She may not have developed Ne to the extent, as you said, in being passive. I also think it might explain, if she could be an INFP, that once she DID get the Ne experience from the mean sisters and she was able to gain new perspective (and recall Lizzy warning her), she was ready to push the girls out of her 'passively' controlled heart and make true (good) bias again.

She realised her error with Bingley, but realised "Well, a loss is a loss so I shan't dwell on it" (INFJ Lizzy DWELLS incessantly). But she had hope that he did care for her. I don't recall Jane so much as uttering an "I love you" until the end (?) she was very cautious about displaying and confirming it to others even when teased about it (even by Lizzy). When Lizzy teased, she'd defer the "feeling" Lizzy was focusing on (Liz: "You love him!" Jane: "Um, :blush: just a bit?") to explain "Isn't he charming though? Didn't you think him nice? Wasn't he nice to everyone and not just me? He's a gentleman that all men should emulate." What does she know of most men? Even Lizzy was more aware that people are differing kinds of mean and disgusting. If only she took her OWN advice, INFJs can be so bad at that when emotionally "unhealthy".

INFJ: You seem stressed you should do A, C, D, F, and maybe in case they don't work, L and try C again and Q.
Person: You look pretty bad yourself, you stressed? Maybe you should do some of that...
INFK: No, I'm fine! I'm doing okay! Let's just worry about you! (INFJ: *don't look at me like I'm incompetent, I don't even want to look right now as I can still function better than you!*)

Even while Jane was "running away" with her the possibilities of her ideas/feelings (not truly expressing "intimately held feelings"), she realised she might've been hurting Lizzy's feelings (as Wickham was digging gold in some chick and + Darcy being 'unliked' fresh in mind due to W), so she exclaimed "But I have faiththat YOU will find someone whom you'll fall in love with, Lizzy! I just know it! You really deserve someone special as Mr. Bingley is for ME" (even though she didn't truly "claim" him and kept insisting that she didn't own him, she inferred as much that she hoped she had a claim on him to Lizzy.

Oh, and, thank you for allowing me to be stubborn about my choices :nice: I agree, this is so serious!

heart
02-19-2008, 04:08 AM
So DD, what do you think of Darcy's obsession with Lizzie's social status? Is this a product of Te or does it possibly show Fe? I am very interested in your perspective. I realize it you might not be able to answer right away, but hope that you will eventually give some of your insight on the issue.

TheSmox
02-19-2008, 08:33 AM
Long post alert!...again! :doh: It's all on INTJ Darcy, babes. This is but Pt.1 of 2.


So DD, what do you think of Darcy's obsession with Lizzie's social status? Is this a product of Te or does it possibly show Fe? I am very interested in your perspective. I realize it you might not be able to answer right away, but hope that you will eventually give some of your insight on the issue.

:blush::blush:~ I'm going to take Darcy being an INTJ further as I hadn't yet fleshed him out yet. So, to respond to your question first, I didn't think of it as an obsession so much as him wanting to know his "role" in relation to her "role" in (logical/rational) life thus becoming anxious about. Anxious b/c he couldn't yet see any good point in liking her w/o causing 'social awkward/chaos' in the channels around him (One is his Aunt). INTJs (INFJs) dislike mucking up the social surroundings unless they are going in for the kill (cause lol), rightly or wrongly. INTJs want to maintain a sense of harmony and maintain distance from those who will disrupt it or have potential to disrupt it. As in, just troublesome people which annoy them. They have no problem criticising in a rationally minded way via Te in order to "organise" the mistaken "thoughts" of others. He did this with Bingley but I shall expound on that after.

What comes from his awareness for the social sphere he resides in is that he understands the "logical" outcome , having already forseen it, which in his time, was irregardless of one's feelings for the persons at hand. Rank is rank. Not everyone married for love and if so they were of lower classes mostly. It would come, from my view and understanding, from Te rationalising it all as such and not allowing feelings to distort that clear understanding of logic. He obviously overcame the cold "logic" going against his personal feelings/desire but when he did try to reach out to Lizzy, he didn't portray himself as well as he could have.

From the beginning it appeared as though Darcy was too overbearing with pride when it was explained he has social awkwardness with new people or people he isn't yet familiar with. He was misperceived Proud as such by those who didn't know him and had info slandered in Wickham's favour. Why didn't he defend himself to other's about Wickham? Or even tell Lizzy when he bagan liking her? An INTJ will likely not care to prove their worth to those outside their circle. What's the point? If you can't tell how intelligent and sincere I am, then it's your loss as it doesn't effect me. You'll see the Change of Heart ( not you ;)) when I get to it below. The only time the 'effect' of detachment from Lizzy began changing is when he began having an attraction for her but couldn't repress it and could not logically dislodge himself even though he knew of the ramifications of such a Match. Being "obligated" into a marriage by your powerful Aunt is not so easy to deal with, he had to overcome that "disrupt" too. He had to figure out a way first in observing Lizzy and then relating to Lizzy and then Going Against The World together. If there was no winning Lizzy, what would be the point in bothering? But I've gotten ahead of myself here :D

If we looked at how Darcy 'mocked'/teased Lizzy as well, he then later realised she was very different with her opinions than the drivel he normally was surrounded with, he would seem to have enjoyed it (can't recall if he says so or if Austen narrating says so?). He became thrilled when she responded in kind to his "being in her presence and 'picking her brain for info to help him'". Although, he didn't realise/forsee his being near her or asking her/teasing her as actually upseting her "What did I do?" it made him look worse in her eyes. He admitted, I think err, to not having people respond so 'differently' against him which was, I'd guess, endearing to see such "fresh" behaviour. Female Behaviour which wasn't so silly in nature as some females he knew were silly/superficial/unkind..but b/c they were a part of his social structure, related or through friends, he wouldn't just 'deflect' them so openly. She challenged him which was new, in so doing he open-uped into seeing her perspective on some things (the "Accomplished Ladies" talk) With a female like Caroline Bingley, he largely ignored her until she pushed him to respond and just deflected her inane questions pr obvious display of "her affection for him/his sister" to show how silly she was in subtle mockery so as not to appear an ass (smart guy, eh?). Very INTJish to be so sly if necessary in not causing outwardly probs. He knew how his social circle worked, was very aware of it. It wasn't because he cared being oh so high but because his actions were dependent on those around him (sister/friends/families). He did take pride that he was well off because he could lavish it on the people around him, such as tenants, servants, sister and friends--then when she came, the love of his life, Lizzy. INTJs who care for family and friends are fierce protectors. They will not let you so much as harm them if they suspect it so (like INFJ paranoia lol). When Georgiana confided in him that she was going to elope, he IMMEDIATELY went to rescue her and make sure her 'honour' was protected. He realised his error in sending her away from his sight b/c he thought he couldn't relate to her being a female and a younger age. He ensured she would be in better care then onwards. He ensured Wickham was happy with more of the money he wanted in return for never coming near them again. That was Darcy 'deflecting' the guy out of his life and, more importantly, his vulnerable sister's life.

When Darcy was accidently shellshocked from seeing Wickham and with Lizzy to boot, he fled. I don't even think it was due to "feeling uncomfortable" so much as PISSSSSSED and wishing he could maim the guy but "social ettiquette" which he was raised well on wouldn't allow him to be so base. His father, we learned from a servant and himself, was a great mentor and was fair. He probably lamented that he couldn't foresee something happening to his sister thus he still kept the anger fresh in his heart but not openly displayed to others. Even when being slandered, he didn't want to harm his sister's reputation (Te awareness of the 'rules' they lived by) by divulging what Wickham had done. He knew Wickham was bad but he didn't think he was any worse than he'd seen him. I'd also think he wouldn't want to so much as think/feel about Wickham ever again.

INTJs may not be as aware of the feelings of those around them, unless the people are known well, and even then Fi is their 3rd CP so it's not as trusted. Depending on its development, it can be childish (not bothering to know, just reacting) or childlike (not sure how to approach but curious all the same). He realised the error of witholding his feelings/exp. with Wickham from Lizzy and other's because that 'wanting to maintain social order' for family/self would have become exposed at the cost of other's. Other's aren't as important as self/family/friends. He corrected that when he found out all "new" things that Wickham had done in relation to Lizzy and to other's which could have been prevented had he told all.

-cont'd Pt.2

TheSmox
02-19-2008, 08:35 AM
-cont'd from Pt.1

As for Darcy's approach in "mis/handling" Lizzy? He kept his observations to himself and observed her to get to know her better. He'd ask her little questions, to which she'd wonder "Why is he asking me if I like this?", because that was his way of sucking Te info for Ni to 'figure' and 'focus' on a way of understanding her better. He didn't give her input so she didn't realise (if she is INFJ, subtlety sucks for them unless matured). He kept his passions beneath the surface, not so much as batting an eye. Lizzy would rationalize his 'eyeing' her as trying to unnerve him "Won't work, I'm on to you!".

Another big error of judgement, as I touched on with (uncertain) INFP Jane, is his INTJ easy misconstruction of her 'affections' for his close friend. He couldn't gauge her "feelings" as well as Lizzy's (Fe-ing and speaking her mind). He largely (Te) gathered analysis off her family's behaviours believing that logical input (for Ni) and enough at that (Ni concludes). Worrying that such a greedy mother, an inept father who sometimes seemed greedy too, two RIDICULOUSLY foolish younger sisters who cavorted all over the place causing 'noise' and a dulled-thing who probably escaped his eye if not his bad hearing ;)

As he was the one who insisted that Jane was not as affectionate for his friend as the main reason, along with the aforementioned, for his 'deflecting' his friend away from her so his friend could "gain perspective", he completely disregarded that knowledge from effecting his chance with Lizzy. Lizzy was somewhat changing her mind of him as he kept "coming near her" but when she found out that it was HE who ruined her sister's happiness, oiiiiii! She was just 'preparing all the things inside' that she wanted to blast at him if/when given the chance.

The Blow Up Proposal was the clashing of ignorance battling to prove the other ignorant. Darcy, overwhelmed by Fi now, will not deny her and he has lost perspective of his "cautious observing". Ni has taken over in wanting to FULFILL this vision. He completely forgot all the info of Wickham: having earlier realised that Wickham had probably brainwashed Lizzy into making him appear criminal and he had ALREADY forgiven her for that (Why not tell her then? Oooooops!). He had on his OWN forged through into overcoming the perceived deficiencies of "her birth" (he didn't care so much as it was society that did and he had to fight society, not just her resistance! :doh:). He'd been closeting all this "love" for her, not having expressed it well (Fi is weak, remember!) and vomitted out when he couldn't stand it or wait any longer. Citing that to the woman you "love" that "despite your Inferior birth, your lack of connections, your foully behaved and ever displaying family, though you and your elder sis are A.O.K, I still found some crazy way of falling for you..What say you, my true love?"

All That Garbage :shock: = WTF?! to Lizzy (Fi :steam:) What did she see of him showing affection (No Fe, nope)? Other than her bias towards their initial meeting and thereafer, being brainwashed/bombarded (Fe) by Wickham and being stubborn on taking other's input that Darcy may be a decent guy....well NO, she'd have needed to be smacked in the face by Mary's piano to 'feeeeel' his quietly residing love for her. Insulting/tearing at her "social birth" and "family's behaviours/appearances" all in ONE GO? WHOA! If she IS an INFJ, then I'd say "Nonononono, Why'd you say that to her?!" She was OVERLY AWARE that her family probably ruined Jane's happiness and were making fools of themselves as she kept TRYING to correct them "Father, you MUST STOP Lydia from leaving before she ruins us all!" as she predicted their downfall. Or during the balls or whenever she'd reproach and vent to Jane about their behaviours. But the worst of it all was that she was VERY MUCH AWARE that he RUINED her most beloved sister's happiness. He even "ruined the chances for success" to a good friend, Wickham! Lastly, INFJ Lizzy in stress, who likely knows how to effect people, will go in for the KILL against what she's feels Darcy holds sacred/value--His pride and now Her. "After we just met, I had already determined/foresaw that you were the LAST MAN on Earth I'd EVER DEIGN to MARRY!" <---"Take that, sucka! Who's a bitch, now?!" :D

Darcy, shellshocked, doesn't know how to react, can barely ask if that's all (can't sputter any more words) and flees. He then "recollected" himself and the connections as to why she'd react that way when he so "ardently loves her". He had NEVER SHOWN IT expressely, no matter how expressive it was in his little world. He FORGOT how to inform her that he'd forgiven her error of judgement on Wickham b/c he realised SHE didn't know, whereas he knew all along (but didn't TELL HER/anyone). He wrote in detailed length all of the issues as he likely "conceived a new way" in approaching her. One that wouldn't be interrupted by noise or Fe-ing from Lizzy. His Change of Heart complete, he discloses the intensely personal in his life b/c he realised again how his remaining arrogantly quiet b/c HE knew it all (INTJs, bad!;) ) and thought there was no need in telling her as such info didn't initially pertain to her. He explained the lack of understanding on Jane's part, somewhat rescinding it though still claiming it was all done to help his friend.

I found it wise that he didn't profess it at all his love for her in the letter, if I remember correctly. He needed to now do what he had forgotten...SHOW it first, then proclaim it. So, he envisioned a new scenario of not only taking it slow but learned to "open" up a bit and show he was more vulnerable than he let on. Seeing her at his estate was sheer fluke but it gave him a chance to show off his sister. He likely divulged his feelings to his sister way before the proposal (as Georgiana said "I've heard so much about you" and I doubt he'd have dumped it all at once on her). Witnessing the sincerity from his sister, whom he knew would garner a better depiction of him in Lizzy's eyes (he hoped), might just get her to see around his faults. Fixing Lydia's problem but NOT wanting her to know about it really showed how not only honourable he could be but modest too. If that twit didn't let it slip that that insufferable Mr. Darcy was there at her wedding, Lizzy couldn't have pieced yet another thing to her Ni-web log which was somewhat reorganising itself in Darcy's favour against her will....

Her trusted Aunt telling everything, how he worked so hard to find and take care of it all, really made Lizzy lament ever judging him so wrongfully in the first place. He felt it was his fault for not enlightening people on such a character that was Wickham. Paying debt, shush-money and he probably arranged it that Wickham be shipped up North, farrrrrrr away (I suspect he would've if it wasn't a "friend" of Wickham's...if it was mentioned in the book, I've forgotten lol)

Darcy was prepared to leave Lizzy alone, fearing that she'd blame him for her stupid sister running away as if he'd just told her, "it wouldn't have happened" (yea right...Lydia would've done it, methinks...). Lizzy upsetting his Aunt so far gave hope and he tried again...they both rescinded their biases and lived Happily INTJ and INFJ Ever After but with probable potential for lotsssss of Hate-Make Up Sex :nice:

I view Darcy almost like my INTJ sis. INTJs can be so huggable as well as standoffish if hugged too much but... I shall :hug: all INTJs forever!!! :devil:

Jae Rae
02-21-2008, 02:42 AM
Thanks. I just finished reading a lengthy article in praise of Charlotte Lucas with which I heartily agreed.

Here's another interesting link:

The Jane Austen Society of North America - Essay Contest Winners 2006 (http://www.jasna.org/essaycontest/2006/index.html)

Jae Rae

anii
02-21-2008, 05:09 AM
We watched Persuasion on TIVO last night. I don't think they could make a modern day remake of that like they did with Clueless/Emma. I just don't think it's possible for someone to be that chronically repressed. Most modern women wouldn't passively stand around in silence for days, weeks and months and watch the object of their affection slip away. Which is what would happen nowadays b'cause the girl couldn't find the cojones to "Speak UP!" Live out loud girl! And don't wait until the final act. I think this story is so old-fashioned because it appears that passivity is rewarded. I don't think the theme is timeless or universal.

That said, the guy from MI-5/Spooks was HOTT.

But I still wanted to shake that girl, maybe even slap her, and yell "Snap out of it!"

It reminded me of those Ang Lee movies (Remains of the Day/Brokeback Mountain) about the long-silent and stifled lovers who can't see far enough beyond their restrictive social roles to Seize the Day! and express their True Feelings! And neither of those take place in modern times either.

It's actually quite frustrating to watch. Still, that hottie from MI-5 made it worth it.

heart
02-21-2008, 05:15 AM
Bridget Jones is a modern remake of Pride and Prejudice. The Mr. Darcy does a fine and sexy job of being totally repressed in it. ;)

I still think a modern but immature IxFP in their late teens/very early 20s as Jane was could easily be shy, withdrawn and unable to express out the deep feelings of their heart.

INTJMom
02-25-2008, 12:27 AM
Tonight, the final installment of Pride and Prejudice, 9 PM on PBS.

Jae Rae
03-23-2008, 07:33 PM
Tonight is Emma with Kate Beckinsale.

Jae Rae

INTJMom
03-23-2008, 10:00 PM
Tonight is Emma with Kate Beckinsale.

Jae RaeThanks! I just checked the tv guide a little bit ago.

I'm planning to video tape it. I sure wish I knew how to record onto a disk.

Apollonian
03-23-2008, 10:58 PM
Thanks! I just checked the tv guide a little bit ago.

I'm planning to video tape it. I sure wish I knew how to record onto a disk.

Ah, Video Tape... I remember video tape. I was one of those kids who actually knew how to program a VCR. Nowadays I just pay an extra ten bucks a month for Digital Video Recording service on my cable box. It has seriously revolutionized my television watching (for better or worse). If you have a Windows Media edition PC with a cable input, its pretty easy too.

INTJMom
03-23-2008, 11:49 PM
Ah, Video Tape... I remember video tape. I was one of those kids who actually knew how to program a VCR. Nowadays I just pay an extra ten bucks a month for Digital Video Recording service on my cable box. It has seriously revolutionized my television watching (for better or worse). If you have a Windows Media edition PC with a cable input, its pretty easy too.I used to sort of scratch my head at all those jokes about not knowing how to program a vcr until we got the one we own now. You would not BELIEVE all the settings you have to go through to program the doggone thing! The first time I tried, I did it wrong and lost my program that I wanted to see, and now I'm afraid to try it again. I have to use the owners manual. It's very anti-intuitive.

Apollonian
03-24-2008, 12:03 AM
Yeah, usually what I did to learn was set it to record a show in the next 15 min and see if it worked. Then, after a few tries I got the hang of it and became confident that it would work for the shows that I wanted.

The one problem with the DVR is that it isn't always smart enough (if not programmed manually) to catch the program if it starts a few minutes early or ends a few minutes late. There is nothing more frustrating than watching an hour long show on DVR only to find out the last minute of the show was cut off.

INTJMom
03-24-2008, 12:55 PM
Yeah, usually what I did to learn was set it to record a show in the next 15 min and see if it worked. Then, after a few tries I got the hang of it and became confident that it would work for the shows that I wanted.That's what I need to do, but I keep forgetting.


...
There is nothing more frustrating than watching an hour long show on DVR only to find out the last minute of the show was cut off.Don't I KNOW it!

INTJMom
03-24-2008, 12:56 PM
I really enjoyed Emma last night. Very well done, good story.

skip
03-25-2008, 05:30 PM
The costuming was quite good for that production of "Emma" but the pacing was off and holy cow was Kate Beckinsale miscast. Her beestung lips were totally inappropriate to that era. She looked and acted like a teenager in an American high school production. Even her accent was horrible (and she's British). The supporting cast was better. Lucy Robinson's Mrs. Elton was thoroughly enjoyable, right on par with Angela Pleasence's Lady Bertram in the 1983 BBC miniseries of "Mansfield Park." Raymond Coulthard played a very strong Frank Churchill. Mark Strong's Knightley was a good effort but a little weak in places. I would have liked to have seen him be more gallant although he did the Box Hill reprimand scene well (always a litmus test for productions of "Emma," for me).

INTJMom
03-25-2008, 05:54 PM
The costuming was quite good for that production of "Emma" but the pacing was off and holy cow was Kate Beckinsale miscast. Her beestung lips were totally inappropriate to that era. She looked and acted like a teenager in an American high school production. Even her accent was horrible (and she's British). The supporting cast was better. Lucy Robinson's Mrs. Elton was thoroughly enjoyable, right on par with Angela Pleasence's Lady Bertram in the 1983 BBC miniseries of "Mansfield Park." Raymond Coulthard played a very strong Frank Churchill. Mark Strong's Knightley was a good effort but a little weak in places. I would have liked to have seen him be more gallant although he did the Box Hill reprimand scene well (always a litmus test for productions of "Emma," for me).If that was Kate B. who played Emma, then I don't know how they could take someone who is so nice looking and make her so unattractive.

I agree that "the Box Hill reprimand" was well done. I enjoyed the whole movie.

This was the only film that made me want to read the book it was depicting.

Jae Rae
03-25-2008, 06:10 PM
If that was Kate B. who played Emma, then I don't know how they could take someone who is so nice looking and make her so unattractive.

I had the same reaction.

We watched the Laurence Olivier/Greer Garson P&P last night. LOL awful. Karen Morley as Charlotte Lucas is beautiful, not plain. Edna May Oliver as Lady Catherine is marvelous, though.

Jae Rae

INTJMom
03-25-2008, 10:24 PM
I had the same reaction.

We watched the Laurence Olivier/Greer Garson P&P last night. LOL awful. Karen Morley as Charlotte Lucas is beautiful, not plain. Edna May Oliver as Lady Catherine is marvelous, though.

Jae RaeI think I know what you mean.
I've tried watching movies from the 40's or whatever,
and they were produced and directed so differently than we're used to.
Oh, dear. They're difficult to bear!

heart
03-25-2008, 10:53 PM
Enjoyed this version very much myself.

What do people think about Emma herself in the written story?

I think Austen did a masterful work with this story. I mean Emma is not really a particularly likable person. Snobby, using people for her own glorification, yet I find myself totally rooting for her happiness and sympathetic to her pains. When she ends up with the man who wants to help her be a better person, I am so happy.

What do others think?


I think I know what you mean.
I've tried watching movies from the 40's or whatever,
and they were produced and directed so differently than we're used to.
Oh, dear. They're difficult to bear!

Yes, I agree. Older period movies tend to come accross stiff.


-------------------------------------------------------------


I also like Clueless! :blush:

Jae Rae
03-29-2008, 07:37 PM
Tomorrow night is Sense & Sensibility, Part I on Masterpiece Theatre.

The little review guy in our newspaper is clapping hard and falling out of his seat. Looks like it's a good one.

Jae Rae

INTJMom
03-29-2008, 10:14 PM
Enjoyed this version very much myself.

What do people think about Emma herself in the written story?

I think Austen did a masterful work with this story. I mean Emma is not really a particularly likable person. Snobby, using people for her own glorification, yet I find myself totally rooting for her happiness and sympathetic to her pains. When she ends up with the man who wants to help her be a better person, I am so happy.

What do others think?...I read it too long ago to remember, but in this particular film I liked her and was glad she had a happy ending.

INTJMom
03-29-2008, 10:14 PM
Tomorrow night is Sense & Sensibility, Part I on Masterpiece Theatre.

The little review guy in our newspaper is clapping hard and falling out of his seat. Looks like it's a good one.

Jae RaeThanks! I'll get my video tape ready!
Apparently, it's 150 minutes long.

PBS description:
"Hattie Morahan (The Golden Compass) plays levelheaded Elinor Dashwood and Charity Wakefield (Jane Eyre) is her impulsive sister Marianne. Though poor, they attract a trio of very promising gentlemen. Will the sisters learn that sense must mix with sensibility if they are to find personal happiness in a society where status and money govern the rules of love? Adapted by Andrew Davies comes a new adaptation of Jane Austen's classic novel."

Jae Rae
03-29-2008, 11:14 PM
Alas, no Alan Rickman.

Jae Rae

INTJMom
03-30-2008, 12:01 AM
Alas, no Alan Rickman.

Jae RaeMmm.

http://www.alan-rickman.com/GQ-9-91.jpg

No. :boohoo:

Apollonian
03-30-2008, 01:55 AM
*laugh* I was actually quite surprised when I saw that version of Sense and Sensibility, not realizing that it featured the likes of Alan Rickman and Hugh Grant. Although, it did make for an interesting film. Alan Rickman seems to play brooding characters spectacularly well. Whereas, Hugh Grant seems to play haphazardly clueless character fairly well. It will be interesting to see how the two characters are characterized differently in this version.

Then again, I really should get around to seeing Emma from last week. What with work and filing taxes, I haven't had as much time as I usually do. I also wonder whether I should wait for part II of Sense and Sensibility to air before watching part I.

Jae Rae
03-31-2008, 05:32 AM
Mmm.

http://www.alan-rickman.com/GQ-9-91.jpg

No. :boohoo:

Mmm, indeed.

But this one is wonderful. Janet McTeer as Mrs. Dashwood. And the Dashwood daughters are lovely. And Colonel Branden is hunky. And...

Jae Rae

heart
03-31-2008, 05:33 AM
I give a B+ so far. :)

Which is good, I gave some of the others a D.

Jae Rae
04-01-2008, 05:09 PM
We rewatched S&S with Emma Thompson and Hugh Grant last night, and I have to say she bugged the heck out of me. Too much emoting and lip trembling. I don't think tenderness comes naturally to her.

But I loved her interpretation in Much Ado About Nothing - very witty, feisty, even bitchy, and believably in love.

She's a great comic actress, but I don't like her in dramas. Didn't like Dead Again either.

Jae Rae