I'm an ENTP, not an SJ. However, why am I not an ENTJ?

[Ezra]

I'm closer to ESTP than ESTJ. I have little doubt that I'm an NT though. I'll decide which one when I get to the chapter on it.

[Jennifer]

Right, contrary to the many tests I've taken, I'm going to call it a day and dub myself ENTP. I think that this fits me perfectly, and all this SJ bullshit does not fit. I don't even think I'm J. I think I force myself to be J; I think it's idealised. I think I'm an ENTP through and through.

ENTPs could seem J because they often push a point of view just to get a reaction and spur conversation.

I never really saw you as J. What thread were you exploring this in? I must have missed the conversation.

[Athenian200]

Right, contrary to the many tests I've taken, I'm going to call it a day and dub myself ENTP. I think that this fits me perfectly, and all this SJ bullshit does not fit. I don't even think I'm J. I think I force myself to be J; I think it's idealised. I think I'm an ENTP through and through.

I think you could have picked a more descriptive title (not to mention a less offensive one). Anyway, you seem like you could be an ENTP, but I'd need more information about your behavior before I could guess.

And if you don't want any input (which is what you implied), why start a thread?

[Kiddo]

Right, contrary to the many tests I've taken, I'm going to call it a day and dub myself ENTP. I think that this fits me perfectly, and all this SJ bullshit does not fit. I don't even think I'm J. I think I force myself to be J; I think it's idealised. I think I'm an ENTP through and through.

Cool! I force myself to be P a lot of time. If I didn't I would go insane. When I was younger I was incredibly rigid and thought excessively about what I would say, and so I force myself to relax and to just get out something when I need to. I think it's a silly idea that we are the same type all the time unless we are under stress. Sometimes we just choose to be different. Do you feel that ENTP is your default type?

[Ezra]

As a kid, ENTP was what I was. I first took an MBTI test when I was 14ish. The result was ENFP. Then I took it again a bit later and it came out as ENTP. From then on, I have always been a Thinking type.

Now, I'll turn this into a typing thread. Athenian, relax, I will change the title and I'll give you something to talk about. Jennifer, a) don't worry about having missed a typing thread; it was sort of in the introduction, and then I created another one about being an ExTJ, and b) how could you have 'never seen me as J'? I've been here for about a week.

Right, prepare for a monologue. Only the INTJs can help me now.:nerd:Just kidding.

On E/I

I've always felt that I was, at heart, Extraverted. Although I've scored Introverted quite recently, as both an INTJ and as an ISTJ, I put this more down to the way in which the questions are phrased than to the fact that I am actually Introverted. Just because I value solitude immensely, and like my space does not make me Introverted. I am Extraverted because I'm energised by meeting people. Even if, before a party or clubbing, I think "fuck, I really cannot be arsed going out tonight", when I get there it takes me a little while to adapt, and then I like it. Never love, just like. The music might be brilliant, but the combination of drinking, dancing and good music doesn't make a good night out for me. I often have the feeling that I grew up too early, and so that when I wanted to do all the stuff my age group does now, I couldn't legally, because I was too young. I much prefer sitting around and socialising and talking politics to partying. I feel more at home there; I feel it's more my scene, and I enjoy it far more than partying. Anyway, this is essentially irrelevant. What you can gather from it is that it's not a case of which scene I'm at that determines my Extraversion or Introversion, but the quality of company. The better the company, the more I enjoy myself.

On S/N

I love sensations. I love good music, good food and drink, good company (as expressed above). It energises me, and I love the energising feeling. It gives me a healthy, natural boost. By my best friend's standard, I am practical, down-to-earth and sometimes too single-minded. By society's standards, I am irregular and a bit weird. It's the way I don't give a shit about the little conventions set down by my age group. Flirting? Why? Need? If you want someone, go get them. If they like you, you will pick them up. However, I'm a massive fan of age-old tradition and values, like family, loyalty and honour; that kind of thing. I have questioned them in the past, and I find them to be the best ways of living. This is one of the reasons I have trouble seeing myself as an xSTJ. I haven't just followed these principles through and through, dogmatically. I've actually had a look at everything I believe in, and decided what is best. I have tried and almost always succeeded in living by those standards. This makes me think NT is much more likely than SJ. It's not about "just because"; it's about "because I have analysed these values, and said to myself, 'this is inherently a good way of living; it benefits society'". I hate following things unquestioningly. Firstly, I'm an 8, secondly, I trust myself and my own beliefs and opinions about a matter far more than anyone else could ever make me trust them. This is one reason why I will not be joining the army after I've finished the OTC. My worst fear is to have someone commanding me to 'shoot him'. It's not about the action; it's about being completely subjected to someone in almost every way; mentally, physically and even spiritually. It's a horrible, horrific scenario for me.

One thing I do think I've begun to lack is imagination and open-mindedness. In recent months, I've noticed this, and have begun to change it. As a kid, I used to be so open and accepting of ideas. It's only been in the past two or three years that I've become so single-minded and, more importantly, determined. My ambition has become much more concrete and ambitious, haha. I've settled on a career choice, and have been settled on this for at least a year. I used to dart around like a fickle. Okay, minor changes have occurred, such as "I might be a solicitor instead of a barrister", but the fundamental idea is there; I'm going to earn a lot of money - that is my life goal. Why do I want to do this? Because I want to enjoy the things in life that are comfortable and that give me new and wonderful sensations? To some extent, yes. But what I want to do is create a family, and give them - without spoiling them - the best quality of life I can afford them. This would bring me the utmost happiness, oh yes it would. A nice house, a wife, and two kids. You're damn right it's conventional. But at least I know why I want it, and I'm not doing it because my parents want me to. And who knows, maybe in twenty or thirty years time, my goals may change.

On T/F

This is going to be a much shorter affair. In short, I know I'm T. Grossly over-Thinking, that is. It's the only letter that has not changed (after that first Feeling one) once. I'm logical, analytic, cold and objective, and people dislike me for it. Not all people; but problems do arise. For example, earlier on this year, my cat died. I wasn't sad. My sister was really upset. As she cradled her dead body, I said 'It's just a dead body!' My mother takes this as a defence mechanism, and says I'm upset but am trying to hide it. In all truth and honesty to you people and to everyone I've spoken to about it since, this is complete shit. I was trying to reduce the intensity of the atmosphere, because I felt what I felt, and I say what I say. It really is just a dead body. There's nothing to hold onto. Let it go for god's sake. It just annoyed me, such an irrational action. Another instance; I was talking about my values and beliefs to my mother, her boyfriend and my best friend on a walk a few days ago, and I casually said 'okay, what's worse - genocide of a nation, or popping off some rounds to kill terrorists and murdering innocent civilians in the process?' to get across the point that the British Army was inherently a good institution which is there to protect us. I am very optimistic about the UK and its institutions. I think our prime ministers have always understood what they are doing and why. Anyway, at 'popping off' she kind of went 'Oh Ezra! In a half 'omfg this is hopeless' and a half serious way'. I was fine with it. Clearly she thought I was dehumanising everything. Anyway, I've never doubted my being Thinking.

On P/J

I love order. I love organisation. I love tidiness. I like routine. The thing is, I can't always be bothered to do something about chaos, disorganisation, mess or unplanned actions. Take now, for example. My room is a tip. I'll do something about it when it annoys me, or when I say to myself "Ez, you're a Judger; why isn't your room tidy?" Also, I do like some level of flexibility. But I also love planned action. I kept my work out routine up for months. It's when I've done in my arm or something and have to stop that I find it very hard to get into. I can maintain routine; I just don't always enjoy it. I much prefer new and interesting days. It makes me feel cooler.

Sorry, for the length. Now, decipher my analytical minions, decipher!

[Nadir]

Congratulations on arriving to a decision!

Now I'm going to say something irrelevant.

The title of this thread made my day. Thanks, dude! :)

[Maverick]

ENTJ?

[Ezra]

Why ENTJ more likely than ENTP in your opinion?

[PinkPiranha]

The title alone would sway the doubters to ENTP, Mav.... *laughs* :D

[Uberfuhrer]

The title alone would sway the doubters to ENTP, Mav.... *laughs* :D

What? Can't ENTJs swear?

And where is this shit I'm supposed to fuck?

[Splittet]

Just take this test: Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes (http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/assessment/survey.html)

[SolitaryWalker]

Have you read my ENTP profile?

[substitute]

I agree with Pink, the title says ENTP. ENTJ would be more strategic and not be able to resist thinking "ah, but I might offend some people with that, so in order to achieve my objective I had better make sure I don't put off potential inputters..." or something like that. ENTP would just say "fuck that". It's a sorta "let the chips fall where they may" mentality that I relate to very much :)

Also your writing style has Ne written all over it.

I think the old fashioned values is your inferior Si aspiring to the things you lack by nature. I get that too, and it's good for you if you harness it well (as it seems you have) as opposed to let it make a hypocritical "do as I say and not as I do" rule nazi, as bad Si is prone to do...

Regarding the I/E partying thing. I totally get you on that. I can do clubbing, wild parties and all that, and enjoy them. But I'm the most at home in the lounge bar with the port and the cigars (figuratively, I don't actually smoke) and the relaxed (if at times heated) conversation. But the more people, the merrier... up to a point. But yeah, just being with people generally, even in a situation I'm not mad keen on, as long as I don't hate it, it will do me more good than harm.

So yeah, though I didn't have any opinion and knew nothing about you before hand, in a 'takes one to know one' kinda way I'd put you down as ENTP from this thread.

But what Jennifer says is right though... I can come through as ENTJ at times, and get that result with about 4 out of 11 tests. Not that I'm presenting myself as the archetypal ENTP or anything. But I don't think anyone doubts my type - or at least if they do, they haven't said anything :unsure:

[Ezra]

substitute, yep, we're the same. ENTP. All these tests where I've been getting ESTJ - they don't reflect my nature for shit. The first time I did it I got ENFP. The second time; ENTP. This reflects my true nature. From then on, shit just got skewered. The questions are phrased stupidly in every test. Every single test, 'practical' means S, 'organised' means J. I am these things, but I'm sure as hell not a prude who spends his days making lists and doing as the rules dictate. On the few occasions I've been getting INTJ; fair enough, because I know the E/I and P/J has definitely been balancing it out in recent years. But the tests are still crap. And that cognitive processes one ALWAYS brings me out as an ISTJ. Apparently I have a lot of Si. I just think it's as useless as the others; just phrased differently.

Anyway, to all others, stop getting offended about a title. It really does mean nothing. I don't understand what a pure and heavenly existence you must've been brought up in if you can't accept swearing.

In socionics, I am SLE (ESTp); in a Te/Fi (fair enough), Se/Ni valuing quadra - Beta. If you know about this, any of you, tell me if ENTP and SLE are compatible at the heart of both types, or if I need to readjust my typing.

Oh wait; forget it. I've just found out they are. Yep, Alexander the Great is an ENTP. He is also an SLE in socionics. I am Alexander the Great.

[Ezra]

Have you read my ENTP profile?

No. I've only read one at typelogic, and another one with a pale background. I agree with most of it; the only thing I don't agree with are things like

"Question authority! (then do exactly what it tells you)" sums up the dilemma in which ENTPs may find themselves by attempting to best the tarbaby Sensing.

It's so 6ish. It doesn't apply to me at all. And there's also this shit about how the 6 is like the juggling, bumbling professor. I scoff at that, like a toff scoffs at the working class as he gallops along on his horse. Okay, I can be pretty scattered and "oh!" "ooh!" "yeah, btw!" *cuts off mid sentence* in my thinking, but I'm not one of these characters. I'm pretty damn grounded. I just have a lot of ideas that often come to me at once, and I think far quicker than I speak, so it sounds like shit, when it all makes perfect sense in my head.

[Ezra]

Just take this test: Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes (http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/assessment/survey.html)

It now seem to think that based on this:

extraverted Sensing (Se) ******************************** (32.1)
good use
introverted Sensing (Si) ************************* (25.5)
average use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) **************************************** (40.5)
excellent use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ******************** (20.2)
limited use
extraverted Thinking (Te) **************************** (28.5)
average use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ************************************* (37.1)
excellent use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) **************** (16.2)
limited use
introverted Feeling (Fi) *************************************** (39.5)
excellent use

I am INFP. This test is shit.

[Splittet]

It now seem to think that based on this:

extraverted Sensing (Se) ******************************** (32.1)
good use
introverted Sensing (Si) ************************* (25.5)
average use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) **************************************** (40.5)
excellent use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ******************** (20.2)
limited use
extraverted Thinking (Te) **************************** (28.5)
average use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ************************************* (37.1)
excellent use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) **************** (16.2)
limited use
introverted Feeling (Fi) *************************************** (39.5)
excellent use

I am INFP. This test is shit.

It's not shit at all, you are just reading the results in a shallow way. What the test is basically saying is that you are a NP. It's too close to call between the different NP types based on the test, but I am sure you can through introspection. ;)

By the way, you are not an ENTJ because your Te and Ni is too weak. Your Ti and Ne is clearly stronger.

[Santtu]

I am INFP. This test is shit.
It's not shit at all, you are just reading the results in a shallow way.
I'm divided.. this test gave results that I got from somewhere else too, INTP a few months ago. It just gets me more confused when there's some variation in the test results.

I'm not at all comfortable with this test either..

[Splittet]

I'm divided.. this test gave results that I got from somewhere else too, INTP a few months ago. It just gets me more confused when there's some variation in the test results.

I'm not at all comfortable with this test either..

In order to read it properly, you need some knowledge about function theory. If not, many read it way too literary, and are not able to see what it clearly says, and what is still uncertain, based on the test. The test itself doesn't really say anything about it either, so you have to interpret the raw scores yourself for the test to be at its most valuable. The test is only as good as the one interpreting the scores.

[INTJMom]

That test isn't trustworthy. I tested 2 or 3 times as an INTP and my J is close to 75% strong.

[Splittet]

That test isn't trustworthy. I tested 2 or 3 times as an INTP and my J is close to 75% strong.

Again, the test cannot be taken too much at face value, it have to interpreted. If you interpret it properly, I think it's probably the best MBTI test online, but it should be combined with a conventional one though. But it's kind of hard to comment when you have never posted your scores. I cannot know if your INTP result was clear or not, without seeing the raw scores. If your Ti tested as stronger than your Te, and your Ne stronger than your Ni, I think you should reconsider your type though. You are possibly just an organised P.

[substitute]

Yeah, tests don't really mean anything... I tend to use them as just a means to a kinda 'ballpark figure', which I then hone and refine by gaining my own understanding of the system and using that to self-define.

Sometimes I get ENTJ, sometimes I get INTP. But my knowledge of the functions and dichotomies tells me that my E is around 70% and despite having trained myself to do a fairly decent J impersonation when circumstances require it in RL, I know it's a learned skill and not a natural tendency; my natural tendency has to be around 80% P.

The tests don't say much about me either in the S/N or T/F parts - my religion has caused me to hugely increase my F, and years of thinkning "close enough!" and then having things fall down due to inattention to facts/details has forced me to be more careful with planning and checking facts.

But again, these are learned skills and not natural traits. The tests can't distinguish between the two. If it asks "do you try to stick to facts?" and I answer "yes", it just gives me an extra point on the S scale. It doesn't provide room for me to explain how hard I have to try to stick to facts, and how I only try to in order to counterbalance my own natural tendency to fly off into speculations and theories and alternative possibilities. It doesn't give me room when I answer "I prefer to be compassionate and merciful rather than fair and objective", to explain how, again, this is something I've learned in order to counterbalance my natural tendency to be rather harsh and dismissive of the subjective element.

So yeah, I'd say to learn about the individual functions and decide for yourself which ones are natural, and which ones are 'artificially' augmented. If I were counting all my tendencies, as they're seen on the outside, without taking any account of the internal processes that lead to the behaviours, I might type myself as ENxx, with a much lower E score as my religion has also taught me to spend long periods in solitary reflection. But because I know myself, and I know what comes naturally and what doesn't, I can confidently say ENTP, even if I might not always appear that way to others.

[INTJMom]

Again, the test cannot be taken too much at face value, it have to interpreted. If you interpret it properly, I think it's probably the best MBTI test online, but it should be combined with a conventional one though. But it's kind of hard to comment when you have never posted your scores. I cannot know if your INTP result was clear or not, without seeing the raw scores. If your Ti tested as stronger than your Te, and your Ne stronger than your Ni, I think you should reconsider your type though. You are possibly just an organised P.Haven't I?
I thought there was a thread that encouraged people to take the test and post the scores?
Did you look for it already?
I can't find it.
I remember manipulating the copy and paste to make it neater before I posted.

Hope nobody gets mad at me for de-railing the thread.

It happened again for the 4th time. I must not understand the questions.

Cognitive Process Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
extraverted Sensing (Se) *********** (11.1)
unused
introverted Sensing (Si) ********************************* (33.8)
good use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ************************** (26.4)
average use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) **************************************** (40.1)
excellent use
extraverted Thinking (Te) *************************** (27.6)
average use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ********************************************** (46.6)
excellent use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ***************** (17.3)
limited use
introverted Feeling (Fi) ************************************ (36.9)
excellent use

Summary Analysis of Profile
By focusing on the strongest configuration of cognitive processes, your pattern of responses most closely matches individuals of this type: INTP

Lead (Dominant) Process
Introverted Thinking (Ti): Gaining leverage (influence) using a framework. Detaching to study a situation from different angles and fit it to a theory, framework or principle. Checking for accuracy. Using leverage to solve the problem.

Support (Auxilliary) Process
Extraverted Intuiting (Ne): Exploring the emerging patterns. Wondering about patterns of interaction across various situations. Checking what hypotheses and meanings fit best. Trusting what emerges as you shift a situation’s dynamics.

If these cognitive processes don't fit well then consider these types: ENTP, or INTJ

[Splittet]

Haven't I?
I thought there was a thread that encouraged people to take the test and post the scores?
Did you look for it already?
I can't find it.
I remember manipulating the copy and paste to make it neater before I posted.

Ah, I tried to find your scores, but was unable to, that might explain why.

Edit: I was looking some more, and still couldn't find. All I could find was posts where you said what you tested on it, but not the raw scores.

[Ezra]

Here's a video of me I made earlier today.

YouTube - My Life As It Stands 2.0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxKaRw4y9jQ)

[INTJMom]

Ah, I tried to find your scores, but was unable to, that might explain why.

Edit: I was looking some more, and still couldn't find. All I could find was posts where you said what you tested on it, but not the raw scores.I re-took the test and edited my previous post.
Thanks.

I think it comes down to that I don't really understand what they're asking me.

[Splittet]

INTJMom, your cognitive functions scores is admittedly a bit weird, but they certainly don't disprove you are INTJ. They seem to quite clearly indicate you are either INTP or INTJ, although judging by the scores you seem to fit the INTP profile a little better, but nothing conclusive. It's funny to see that all your introverted functions tests higher than your extroverted functions. You must be extremely introverted. You say you are 75 % J, but if you are, it is a mystery to me your Te doesn't score higher.

[SolitaryWalker]

No. I've only read one at typelogic, and another one with a pale background. I agree with most of it; the only thing I don't agree with are things like

"Question authority! (then do exactly what it tells you)" sums up the dilemma in which ENTPs may find themselves by attempting to best the tarbaby Sensing.

It's so 6ish. It doesn't apply to me at all. And there's also this shit about how the 6 is like the juggling, bumbling professor. I scoff at that, like a toff scoffs at the working class as he gallops along on his horse. Okay, I can be pretty scattered and "oh!" "ooh!" "yeah, btw!" *cuts off mid sentence* in my thinking, but I'm not one of these characters. I'm pretty damn grounded. I just have a lot of ideas that often come to me at once, and I think far quicker than I speak, so it sounds like shit, when it all makes perfect sense in my head.


http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nt-rationale/2928-entp-profile.html

Please keep in mind the temperament/personality distinction.

[Maverick]

Here's a video of me I made earlier today.

YouTube - My Life As It Stands 2.0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxKaRw4y9jQ)

ENTJ 8w7... But you sound at 5...

The whole impression I got was that of an ENTJ that is in a phase of "WTF, everything is meaningless. Why bother controlling things. I don't care. I can't find what really suits me. What's the point in doing too much anyway... Fuck everything else." Or maybe that's the definition of an ENTP ;)

[substitute]

The whole impression I got was that of an ENTJ that is in a phase of "WTF, everything is meaningless. Why bother controlling things. I don't care. I can't find what really suits me. What's the point in doing too much anyway... Fuck everything else." Or maybe that's the definition of an ENTP ;)

:yes:

especially in their teens, whilst not feeling too great about life generally.

[FallsPioneer]

Great, the title's changed. >=\

[FDG]

ENTJ?

Yeah. Much more likely.

[Athenian200]

I watched it... and you seem ESTJ in some ways. You have good awareness of ideas, but you seem to have a certain Si vibe. ESTJ's tend to seem similar to NT's in some ways, and it would explain why you see yourself as ENTx... you have strong Ne and Te.

Hearing you say you hate abstractions sounded very S to me.

[Maverick]

I watched it... and you seem ESTJ in some ways. You have good awareness of ideas, but you seem to have a certain Si vibe. ESTJ's tend to seem similar to NT's in some ways, and it would explain why you see yourself as ENTx... you have strong Ne and Te.

Hearing you say you hate abstractions sounded very S to me.

He is ENT.

ESTJ's are only supposed to develop their Intuition at mid-life, yet Ezra's highest scoring function is Intuitive. Ezra shows a high interest in the abstract through his academic choice of philosophy - a very unusual choice for the practically minded ESTJ that has Ne as 3rd function, usually developped only later in mid-life.

He is frustrated with it because ENT's are driven to apply theories, whereas all that philosophers do is constant theorizing. This may appeal to INxx's but less to ENxx's. Considering the contrast with you as an INxx, it only makes sense you perceive him as S.

[Athenian200]

He is ENT.

ESTJ's are only supposed to develop their Intuition at mid-life, yet Ezra's highest scoring function is Intuitive. Ezra shows a high interest in the abstract through his academic choice of philosophy - a very unusual choice for the practically minded ESTJ that has Ne as 3rd function, usually developped only later in mid-life.

He is frustrated with it because ENT's are driven to apply theories, whereas all that philosophers do is constant theorizing. This may appeal to INxx's but less to ENxx's. Considering the contrast with you as an INxx, it only makes sense you perceive him as S.

Okay, then... but it could be hard to tell an ENTx from an ESTJ if the circumstances were right, couldn't it?

If he's ENTx, do you think J or P? Why? My guess is J... He doesn't seem to be absorbing the way a "P" would, or even the way an "I" would. There's definitely a sense of Te assessing, and I know that ExTJ's have that in common.

Speaking of which, I wouldn't mind applying theories, I just don't see how it's possible to really apply them in their entirety. I don't like cutting things away to make it fit the situation and losing the underlying essence of the idea, although I try to evoke and use as much of the idea as I can to improve the situation. I think you have to understand the idea before you can do that. That's the INxx thing from our own perspective.

[substitute]

Yeah actually in the video he didn't seem as animated as ENTP's usually are... but that could easily be because he was on the spot and sort of a bit nervous and concerned about how he was coming across (typical E!). He didn't seem very at home with the camera being on him, but wanted to seem as though he did... hm, I don't think that's a type thing though, that could apply to many people of different types.

In some circumstances athenian I agree that ENTJ and ESTJ can be difficult to tell apart, though it's obvious what the differences are when you get them talking for any length of time. But ESTJ and ENTP are very different and very easy to tell apart, IMO.

Because he's so young, I'd say it's not so easy to tell either from the writing or from the video... but the writing contradicts the video to me, tells me there's more animation and enthusiasm, more passion on the inside than appears on the outside. But as I said that could just be in that video - when he's relaxed and without a camera on him, we don't know how passionate/animated he can get.

[Maverick]

Okay, then... but it could be hard to tell an ENTx from an ESTJ if the circumstances were right, couldn't it?

If he's ENTx, do you think J or P? Why? My guess is J... He doesn't seem to be absorbing the way a "P" would, or even the way an "I" would. There's definitely a sense of Te assessing, and I know that ExTJ's have that in common.

On one hand, I would like to say ENTJ because of a general hunch I have.

On the other, he did score highest in Ne and not that high in Te. He also seems to have trouble coming to closure about his type and is constantly doubting it, which could indicate P.

However, considering he is in his late teens, I wouldn't put much stock into this. Identity issues are common in adolescence and part of a normal developmental process. This often manifests as a bias towards P. It coincides with the development of Ni in ENTJs. It could explain Ezra's current interest for philosophy. If Ezra remembers himself as being Te as a child, then it would all make sense.

As a child I was very much Te myself. As a teen, I started developping Ni. It was so strong that after 3 months of studying economics I switched to studying philosophy. However, I quickly realized it wasn't for me. It was too abstract and not focused on actual problems.

As you see, there are similarities between Ezra and myself.

Speaking of which, I wouldn't mind applying theories, I just don't see how it's possible to really apply them in their entirety. I don't like cutting things away to make it fit the situation and losing the underlying essence of the idea, although I try to evoke and use as much of the idea as I can to improve the situation. I think you have to understand the idea before you can do that. That's the INxx thing from our own perspective.

Sure, and I'm not making a value judgment about the INxx approach. There is not one approach that is better than the other, just different preferences for one or the other depending on the person.

[Athenian200]

Yeah actually in the video he didn't seem as animated as ENTP's usually are... but that could easily be because he was on the spot and sort of a bit nervous and concerned about how he was coming across (typical E!). He didn't seem very at home with the camera being on him, but wanted to seem as though he did... hm, I don't think that's a type thing though, that could apply to many people of different types.

I always thought it was the other way around... E's weren't self-conscious about how they came across, so they weren't as anxious in public. So you worry how you look to other people too? I always thought E's had it easier in that regard... just didn't think or worry as much and still managed to get through everything somehow.

In some circumstances athenian I agree that ENTJ and ESTJ can be difficult to tell apart, though it's obvious what the differences are when you get them talking for any length of time. But ESTJ and ENTP are very different and very easy to tell apart, IMO.


That's actually what I was suggesting... that the issue is between ESTJ and ENTJ, so ENTP isn't really possible. That's just my opinion of course.


Because he's so young, I'd say it's not so easy to tell either from the writing or from the video... but the writing contradicts the video to me, tells me there's more animation and enthusiasm, more passion on the inside than appears on the outside. But as I said that could just be in that video - when he's relaxed and without a camera on him, we don't know how passionate/animated he can get.

Passion on the inside indicates Fi rather than Fe, right?

[Maverick]

Passion on the inside indicates Fi rather than Fe, right?

Definitely.

[substitute]

Not sure I agree... I wouldn't say PinkPiranha lacks inner passion at all, but she's definitely very Fe...

athenian yes, extraverts do worry about how they come across to others. I can't speak for all extraverts or all ENTP's but my impression is that sometimes when talking to other people the fascination I have for them overrides my self-consciousness and takes my mind off it. But that doesn't mean that if I'm being video'd or photographed or reviewed in my absence, I don't think about how I look or super cringe when I look bad!

[Splittet]

Is INTP possible? I stick to my theory of him being NP. substitute says he is maybe a little unanimated to be an ENTP, so that might indicate an introvert, who holds back a little more?

[substitute]

I'd say this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T0GuglxtXA&feature=related) was more obviously ENTP... though he might have been playing it up for the camera...

[Splittet]

I'd say this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T0GuglxtXA&feature=related) was more obviously ENTP... though he might have been playing it up for the camera...

Let's say his Ne is not hard to sense. :P That being said, it does feel like he is overdoing it and pushing it a little.

Edit: I saw some more videos of him, and his Ne is just WOW!!!

[Athenian200]

Not sure I agree... I wouldn't say PinkPiranha lacks inner passion at all, but she's definitely very Fe...

Oh, she's definitely passionate, but where is the object of the passion? Aren't there hints that it might be external? In fact, some of the most passionate people are fleeing from a sense of inner emptiness by fixating on something outside them to feel alive, as strange as it may seem.


athenian yes, extraverts do worry about how they come across to others. I can't speak for all extraverts or all ENTP's but my impression is that sometimes when talking to other people the fascination I have for them overrides my self-consciousness and takes my mind off it. But that doesn't mean that if I'm being video'd or photographed or reviewed in my absence, I don't think about how I look or super cringe when I look bad!

I guess that's just not as obvious because E's seem so much bolder and unafraid of things, willing to fearlessly charge right in. You know what I mean? But it's interesting how the self-consciousness is most intense when you personally are removed from the situation in which your work or appearance is being judged... the opposite of an Introvert's fear of only looking good once and not doing as well presenting something next time.

[substitute]

Oh, she's definitely passionate, but where is the object of the passion? Aren't there hints that it might be external? In fact, some of the most passionate people are fleeing from a sense of inner emptiness by fixating on something outside them to feel alive, as strange as it may seem.

Yeah that happens sometimes, but I don't think that's the case with her and it certainly isn't with me either. I think you've misunderstood extraversion somewhat... the fixation on an external thing is usually precisely because it resonates deeply with an inner passion or conviction, and relating to that thing makes a person feel less alone, and validated somehow. Inner emptiness is just as much an introvert thing as extraverts... look at INTPc, where dozens of them often to talk about how pointless everything is and how depressed and empty they feel inside.

I guess that's just not as obvious because E's seem so much bolder and unafraid of things, willing to fearlessly charge right in.

No, it's not fearlessness. I feel just as afraid as anyone when I charge in. The only difference is that I know it's got to be done, and if someone doesn't try, it certainly never will be, so all I can do is charge in and do my best. I go in despite the fear, not because I don't have it.

But it's interesting how the self-consciousness is most intense when you personally are removed from the situation in which your work or appearance is being judged... the opposite of an Introvert's fear of only looking good once and not doing as well presenting something next time.

Yeah I kinda know what you mean there. I'm quite confident in my work and my life and stuff... I can quite happily put myself on the line if I'm able to interact with whatever is judging me. But to just video myself talking cold to the camera, where I've got to come out with everything from my own head on the spot (rather than taking what's presented to me and making something out of it, which is my usual way of operating), that's quite intimidating, and I've no control over the audience either - they watch it cold. When talking live with the audience right in front of me, I've no worries because I can sense straight away the second anything doesn't go down well, and can 'rescue' it and change tack. But in a video interview, I just have to plough on, not knowing whether for the last 10 minutes everything I've said has come out wrong or isn't going right, or whatever...

[Ezra]

Speaking of which, I wouldn't mind applying theories, I just don't see how it's possible to really apply them in their entirety.

Put it this way. Say you were studying ethics as a module in philosophy, as I have just done in my first semester. Now, you come across Kantian theory and Epicurean theory. You decide which is your favourite. You can now apply it to life. I actually like this kind of philosophy, because the best kind is always that which can be applied to life. After all, what use is a love of wisdom if you can't enjoy said wisdom by making use of it? You'll get double the love. Let's face it: wisdom is their to be applied. This is why Socrates is a legend, and why some sophist who just contemplated all day is not. It's a common misconception that philosophers contemplate and only contemplate. Bullshit. The best kind of philosophers contemplate and do. They are practical people with a vision. Perhaps the best philosophers thus are INTJs.

Yeah actually in the video he didn't seem as animated as ENTP's usually are... but that could easily be because he was on the spot and sort of a bit nervous and concerned about how he was coming across (typical E!). He didn't seem very at home with the camera being on him, but wanted to seem as though he did... hm, I don't think that's a type thing though, that could apply to many people of different types.[/youtube]

Let me give you the link to the video I posted of myself a few months ago.

YouTube - My Life As It Stands (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqlR1WQ9PLU)

I'm much more aware of the camera in this one, and it does come through in how I am.

[quote]Because he's so young, I'd say it's not so easy to tell either from the writing or from the video... but the writing contradicts the video to me, tells me there's more animation and enthusiasm, more passion on the inside than appears on the outside. But as I said that could just be in that video - when he's relaxed and without a camera on him, we don't know how passionate/animated he can get.I wish I could get a recording of me in action. Typically, if I'm into something, what I'll do is dictate; I'll take control of the situation. I'll ask people questions; I'll involve them, while retaining full control and dominance in conversation. I don't at all find it shameful to admit that I'm a loudmouth and I'm aggressively enthusiastic and opinionated in conversation. My words aren't always smooth and I'm not particularly quick or good at getting back in the rebound; but I know how to argue, and I think clearest and most effectively when in the heat of battle (argument).

On the other, he did score highest in Ne and not that high in Te. He also seems to have trouble coming to closure about his type and is constantly doubting it, which could indicate P.

I've scored high in Te many times before. Anyway, the reason I say the test is problematic is because there are basically six questions for each function. If you happen to answer 'Little Me' or 'Not Me' for, say, four out of six of those questions based on Te, guess what? You're not Te. But this might not be the case. Imagine there are ten questions. Imagine you answered 'Little Me' or 'Not Me' for the same four, but 'Exactly Me' or 'A Lot Like Me' for the other six. You are now Te. It's just too slim and short to predict an accurate result. This is why I don't trust it. I've come out as INFP, ESTJ, ISTJ on there, along with a few more. Also, in this test and many more, many of the questions are phrased remarkably poorly, giving me a bad impression. See, if I answer 'I disagree' to 'I am head-in-the-clouds more than I am realistic' that automatically marks me as S. So what, you're telling me ENTJs aren't with it? This is a big flaw. A Te person could never be head-in-the-clouds, otherwise they wouldn't be strong in Te. The flaw is that these tests attempt to test on two bases; dichotomies and functions. So problems come into play. People wonder how they can be ESTPs while remaining strong in Te; they wonder how an INFJ is so good with Te (when all that's happened is that they have scored borderline on F/T, so they could easily have Te as an auxiliary function over Fe). If you type by dichotomies, you cannot use the functions, and vice versa.

However, considering he is in his late teens, I wouldn't put much stock into this. Identity issues are common in adolescence and part of a normal developmental process. This often manifests as a bias towards P. It coincides with the development of Ni in ENTJs. It could explain Ezra's current interest for philosophy. If Ezra remembers himself as being Te as a child, then it would all make sense.As a kid, I took charge. I was disliked by certain mothers, because I came on too strong, and I dominated their kids. Quite a few loved me though. I could spend hours in my room constructing Lego bases or castles. I'd use to go out and buy loads of packs of toy soldiers, and spend hours setting them up, only to start a war, knowing who I'd want to win (nearly always the English or the crusaders). I had a big imagination, and I'd use wooden blocks, Lego and other models to create huge wars of the future. I've always had an obsession with war; not being the lowest of the low but a general.

By high school, I was the lowest of the low in terms of social rank. But I know I was different, because I was one of the few people who people were not scared of. There was also no reason to dislike me; I was a very likeable character. I was still imaginative and known for it. I was creative. People used to come to me for their names grafittied into the backs of their books. They loved it. Then I'd do it anyway, just because I felt like it, and leave them all over school.

Recently I feel I've lost my imagination. This doesn't really bother me. I got a C in Art at GCSE, which is - to me; by my standards - the kind of turning point from imaginative to practical. It is a failure in my eyes. I'm now considered quite single-minded by my closest friends. As I said in the video, my goal is to make money for future plans. The fundamentals are there; it's finding the method with which to do it.

[Athenian200]

Yeah that happens sometimes, but I don't think that's the case with her and it certainly isn't with me either. I think you've misunderstood extraversion somewhat... the fixation on an external thing is usually precisely because it resonates deeply with an inner passion or conviction, and relating to that thing makes a person feel less alone, and validated somehow. Inner emptiness is just as much an introvert thing as extraverts... look at INTPc, where dozens of them often to talk about how pointless everything is and how depressed and empty they feel inside.

Oh, that's actually what I meant. Fe/Ti vs. Fi/Te. Fe has passion on the outside, not on the inside. So in order to feel, you have to relate to something outside yourself. That's one reason I have trouble getting along with INFP's, who think a passion/emotion can exist on it's own, while I see my emotions/ideals as being based on a pattern in reality that works within reality. I have Fe, not Fi.

What I think is interesting is how INTP's tend to embrace and preserve that inner numbness/neutrality and avoid anything which disrupts that state, while ExFJ's prefer to fight that numbness and do everything they can to move away from it or against it. It says a lot about them to me.

Yeah I kinda know what you mean there. I'm quite confident in my work and my life and stuff... I can quite happily put myself on the line if I'm able to interact with whatever is judging me. But to just video myself talking cold to the camera, where I've got to come out with everything from my own head on the spot (rather than taking what's presented to me and making something out of it, which is my usual way of operating), that's quite intimidating, and I've no control over the audience either - they watch it cold. When talking live with the audience right in front of me, I've no worries because I can sense straight away the second anything doesn't go down well, and can 'rescue' it and change tack. But in a video interview, I just have to plough on, not knowing whether for the last 10 minutes everything I've said has come out wrong or isn't going right, or whatever...

What's ironic is that I think I'll butcher my own message by my clumsy presentation, so I'm actually more comfortable if I can't be seen or interact with the people I'm talking to, because then I'm not having be distracted by focusing on them instead of my idea. It's really strange.

[substitute]

I wish I could get a recording of me in action. Typically, if I'm into something, what I'll do is dictate; I'll take control of the situation. I'll ask people questions; I'll involve them, while retaining full control and dominance in conversation. I don't at all find it shameful to admit that I'm a loudmouth and I'm aggressively enthusiastic and opinionated in conversation. My words aren't always smooth and I'm not particularly quick or good at getting back in the rebound; but I know how to argue, and I think clearest and most effectively when in the heat of battle (argument).

Yup, same here. Totally. ENTJ's are like that too, but they're using Te to control whilst I'm using Ne to, well not exactly control but more 'marshal' or deal with things as they fall however they will. I guess in this respect ENTP and ENTJ can come across quite similar, and you'd need an understanding of what was going on in the person's head to be able to know the difference.

I also score high in Te though, usually about equal to Ti or just a little less. But because Ne eclipses them both for me, I know I'm ENTP and not ENTJ.

I just took a recording of myself to see if people think they can tell my type from a video, but I think I have some of the same trouble you do. Not having the audience there directly, and having to talk cold, it's not my preferred environment. I'm sorta out of my element, so I'm not coming across as I do in live conversation. So I think that outside of scripted things like the Australian guy in the clip I linked to, it's difficult to really show your ENTP-ness when put on the spot. And I'm also quite conscious of how I've put on a lot of weight this year, and so I'm not looking good!! When it's finished uploading to You Tube I'll link to it and you can see what you think.

Oh, that's actually what I meant. Fe/Ti vs. Fi/Te. Fe has passion on the outside, not on the inside. So in order to feel, you have to relate to something outside yourself. That's one reason I have trouble getting along with INFP's, who think a passion/emotion can exist on it's own, while I see my emotions/ideals as being based on a pattern in reality that works within reality. I have Fe, not Fi.

Okay, well maybe I just don't get Fe or F in general very well (duh lol), and with Ti and Te being almost equal for me, it's hard to say whether this applies to other extraverts. But for me it's not that I need to relate to something external in order to feel, but more that I feel internally and then, because of the way I feel - a feeling that's come from within myself - I have a need to find something external to relate it to. Often I can't find anything to relate it to, but I continue to feel it within myself and it's incredibly frustrating.

[substitute]

Let's say his Ne is not hard to sense. :P That being said, it does feel like he is overdoing it and pushing it a little.

Edit: I saw some more videos of him, and his Ne is just WOW!!!

Yeah, but he's had ages to script and edit the videos, to be fair... and he is very photogenic as well, which helps. I wonder if there are any of him just talking unscripted without any editing?

Seen this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnE-YUpV6Gs&feature=related)? Haha, it's brilliant! :)

edit - PS you were saying that (bold) to me just the other day - I see your affections are easily transferred, my fickle, Ne-hungry little viking :boohoo: :alttongue:

[Splittet]

Seen this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnE-YUpV6Gs&feature=related)? Haha, it's brilliant! :)

Yeah, I saw that one and thought it was very creative, although I guess I have seen some similar stuff done on YouTube.

PS you were saying that (bold) to me just the other day - I see your affections are easily transferred, my fickle, Ne-hungry little viking :boohoo: :alttongue:

Sorry, but can't remember that. Sorry if I hurt you. :P

[substitute]

Sorry, but can't remember that. Sorry if I hurt you. :P

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sad/sad0020.gif (http://www.videowhip.co.uk) I could recall your exact words (as I'm sure others from chat at the time could also!) but it'd only embarrass you, hehe... maybe you were just drunk. Yah, we'll say that, eh? :yes:

Watch out for this one Ezra, he's an Ne whore, comes on all strong if you flash a bit of Ne and then denies all knowledge later :devil:

[Splittet]

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sad/sad0020.gif (http://www.videowhip.co.uk) I could recall your exact words (as I'm sure others from chat at the time could also!) but it'd only embarrass you, hehe... maybe you were just drunk. Yah, we'll say that, eh? :yes:

Watch out for this one Ezra, he's an Ne whore, comes on all strong if you flash a bit of Ne and then denies all knowledge later :devil:

Ah, now I can recall what I am not supposed to recall, ehm, so I don't recall anything. *makes poker face*

[substitute]

Ah, now I can recall what I am not supposed to recall, ehm, so I don't recall anything. *makes poker face*

:rofl1: I love you, man! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/love/love0051.gif (http://www.videowhip.co.uk)

[Splittet]

:rofl1: I love you, man! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/love/love0051.gif (http://www.videowhip.co.uk)

:azdaja: Don't come closer!!!

[INTJMom]

Yeah, but he's had ages to script and edit the videos, to be fair... and he is very photogenic as well, which helps. I wonder if there are any of him just talking unscripted without any editing?

Seen this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnE-YUpV6Gs&feature=related)? Haha, it's brilliant! :)
Awww. He's cute! I LOVE him! I want him for a brother! :hug:

[Ezra]

This Australian guy we discussed on socionics, and said that he was probably an ILE (ENTp). He just happens to be an ENTP in MBTT as well. It's interesting, because while a lot of ENTPs would identify with ILE, not all of them would. I'll expand on this in a new topic.

[Ezra]

Right, after having finished reading about Keirsey's temperaments, I fit best (but not with ease) into the NT style. I identify most with ENTJ, followed by INTJ. After having read about the ENTP, I find it hard to see myself as one.

The critical thing about the NT that I'm lacking is their self-doubt and massive pessimism. I identify more with the SP's sense of confidence and lack of self-consciousness in that sense. However, I don't quite have the sexual forwardness inherent in the SP to be an SP. I also to some level identify with the SJ's sense of responsibility, but I'm not an SJ; I have neither the deeply ingrained need to get involved in their community and various institutions, nor the love of tradition for the sake of its being tradition (why follow something that has no practical value or something which no longer has relevance in today's world?)

[substitute]

Massive pessimism? ENTP?? Um... 'scuse me? We're the optimism pixies, I'll have you know! Where there's a will there's a way, especially if it's my will! :D

[arcticangel02]

I'd say this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T0GuglxtXA&feature=related) was more obviously ENTP... though he might have been playing it up for the camera...

Wow. He's so adorable! :nice:

[Ezra]

Okay, perhaps not so. Anyway, I'm starting to think ENTJ sits much better after having delved into the ENTx descriptions. I also identify on some level with INTJ, but not INTP.

[Athenian200]

:rofl1: I love you, man! http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/love/love0051.gif (http://www.videowhip.co.uk)

You... do know you aren't really supposed to say things like that anymore, right? :huh:

[substitute]

You... do know you aren't really supposed to say things like that anymore, right? :huh:

:shock: Wha...??

[Ezra]

I've finished reading Keirsey's chapter on Parenting, and I was certainly an NT as a kid. ENT for sure. I think I'm ENTJ.