Trouble Enneagram-Typing Yourself? Come To Papa

[Ezra]

If you're genuinely confused about what Enneagram type you are, I will help you find it. It might take some time, but we will find it.

[MerkW]

If you're genuinely confused about what Enneagram type you are, I will help you find it. It might take some time, but we will find it.

Very well then. I know that I am a 5. I know I am sp/sx. But am I 5w4 or 5w6? I can't decide. It keeps switching back and forth. I am very irritated by this. Which am I?

[Athenian200]

If you're genuinely confused about what Enneagram type you are, I will help you find it. It might take some time, but we will find it.

You believe it's possible to be completely positive of your enneagram type? Why? It's not written on you anywhere, and the tests aren't foolproof. I guess I'm confused by your confidence that such a thing can be known.

[FDG]

If you're genuinely confused about what Enneagram type you are, I will help you find it. It might take some time, but we will find it.

Yuck. Why in the world you feel entitled to being an authority on it? Not even Gurdjeff dared speaking this way. If this is a joke, fine. Otherwise, bah.

[Jennifer]

...It's not written on you anywhere...

*roll eyes*

Look at the stamp on your butt, silly!

Very well then. I know that I am a 5. I know I am sp/sx. But am I 5w4 or 5w6? I can't decide. It keeps switching back and forth. I am very irritated by this. Which am I?

In a completely unprofessional opinion built off extremely limited and superfluous evidence, I'll say that you sound like 5w6 here.

Because here's the 5w4 version (edited):
Well, I know that I am a 5, I think, and probably sp/sx. But am I 5w4 or 5w6? Why can't I decide? It keeps switching back and forth, and I'm in agony. Why can't I figure this out? What does this say about life and me? Which one, oh, which one could I be? Alas! I cannot bear the ambiguity.... but I must, of course! God, please just shoot me now... Oh, hell, forget it.

(That one is me, of course.)

[alcea rosea]

If you're genuinely confused about what Enneagram type you are, I will help you find it. It might take some time, but we will find it.

Me, me, me, me, me! :D

I'm 7 or 9 but which one? :thinking:

[Athenian200]

*roll eyes*

Look at the stamp on your butt, silly!

When I checked there was no stamp. I guess they forgot to put it on me. I must be very unlucky.


Because here's the 5w4 version (edited):

That sounds more like a strong 4 than a 5w4.

[white]

If you're genuinely confused about what Enneagram type you are, I will help you find it. It might take some time, but we will find it.

I don't mind being your test bunny.

I couldn't figure out how it works. Took the test. How many wings can a person have - I've 3 ties for e.g, and though I'm type 4 here, it is very close. How does this gel with the ENTP; and how do I inteprete the relation between the main and the wing?

Results as below:

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||| 65%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||||| 52%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||||| 65%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||||||||||||| 68%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||||| 61%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||| 65%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||||||| 51%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||| 31%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||| 45%

sp/so/sx.

[Jennifer]

That sounds more like a strong 4 than a 5w4.

You're right, I was probably a little too dramatic. Although a true 4 might sound like this:

I don't know who I am anymore! Am I a four to adore? Or perhaps I am a five today,that jives, simply because I'd like to be one? Yes, that might be it. I shall be a five until tomorrow. Then I'll be a four again. Or maybe a six.

There is a man, nearby, watching me, and I cannot tell whether I should run from him, alone, into the cold but safe darkness or else flee into his mysterious but passionate embrace. His eyes are black and indecipherable... like mine. Agony, yes, I know it is, to not know the answer to the meaning of my life, but if my heart was not breaking, perhaps I would not even realize I was alive!

Wait, what were we talking about again?

Don't hate me because I'm beautiful. Just love me.

[white]

You're right, I was probably a little too dramatic. Although a true 4 might sound like this:

:shock:

Erm. Is there anywhere I could redo the test again.

[cascadeco]

I decided a few months back that I was a 4, because I was browsing through an Enneagram book at a bookstore, and 4 just seemed to describe me perfectly, in a way none of the other descriptions did.

Here's the most recent test results --


Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||||| 54%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||| 45%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||||||||||||| 68%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||| 52%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||||| 42%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||| 37%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||| 42%

sp/so/sx

[quietgirl]

I've always gotten 9w1. What do you think?

[arcticangel02]

Alright, here goes. I did three tests, and these were my results:

The first one I got was type 2, closely followed by type 7 and 9 equally.
The next test gave me type 2 and 9 equally, with type 3 and type 7 coming after that.
And the third test gave me type 7, then type 9 and then type 2.

And then the Instinctual Variant test gave me type 2 with a 3 wing, variant social, although in the description it mentioned that type 9 tends to mistype as 2 (and I felt the differences put me more on the 9 side).

So, what's your expert opinion? :P

[Jennifer]

Alright, here goes. I did three tests, and these were my results:

The first one I got was type 2, closely followed by type 7 and 9 equally.
The next test gave me type 2 and 9 equally, with type 3 and type 7 coming after that.
And the third test gave me type 7, then type 9 and then type 2.

And then the Instinctual Variant test gave me type 2 with a 3 wing, variant social, although in the description it mentioned that type 9 tends to mistype as 2 (and I felt the differences put me more on the 9 side).

So, what's your expert opinion? :P

Oh, you're a 972.3, obviously. :D

Seriously, though, women in many cultures have to be careful when they receive a "Two" rating, because they've been culturally pushed to perform in a Two role regardless of personality. This bias is well-known among enneagram practitioners.

I would see a Seven or Nine reading as normal for an MBTI ENFP type. The Sevens tend to be more energetic and into sampling a lot of things (experiences, sensations, etc.), whereas the Nine are more interested in peacekeeping and keeping life safe and stable. Seven behavior can lead into conflict because they're immersed in the world and pursuing things; Nines tend to show less energy or activity.

[Mycroft]

All right, I'll bite. Here are my results:

Type 1 Perfectionism - 74%
Type 2 Helpfulness - 18%
Type 3 Image Focus - 38%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity - 22%
Type 5 Detachment - 78%
Type 6 Anxiety - 70%
Type 7 Adventurousness - 26%
Type 8 Aggressiveness - 54%
Type 9 Calmness - 58%

Evidently I'm a 5, but I don't really understand the second number thing. Some numbers can't go together or somesuch?

[Athenian200]

Mine's weird as always... since everyone else is posting results, here:

Type 6 Anxiety - 85%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity - 78%
Type 5 Detachment - 70%
Type 1 Perfectionism - 60%
Type 2 Helpfulness - 51%
Type 3 Image Focus - 50%
Type 9 Calmness - 41%
Type 8 Aggressiveness - 20%
Type 7 Adventurousness - 14%

sp/so/sx

I presume I'm a 4w5 based on various previous assessments.

[Ezra]

Very well then. I know that I am a 5. I know I am sp/sx. But am I 5w4 or 5w6? I can't decide. It keeps switching back and forth. I am very irritated by this. Which am I?

The fundamental difference between the 5w4 and the 5w6 is easier to spot than in the other types. It's simple: do you spend a lot more time studying technical things, like philosophy or HTML coding, or is most of your time dedicated to artistic pursuits?

Read this. Which sounds more like you?

The difference between the 4 wing and the 6 wing in Fives is like the difference between Art and Science. 4 wing brings an abstract, intuitive cast of thought, as though the Five were thinking in geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images. May be talented artistically and inhabit moods like Fours do. Combine intellectual and emotional imagination. Enjoy the realm of philosophy and beautiful constructs of thought. The marriage of mental perspective and aesthetics is the best of life for them. When more defensive may seem a little ghostly, have a whisper in their voice. Fluctuate between impersonal withdrawal and bursts of friendly caring. Can get floaty and abstract. Act like they're inside a bubble, sometimes with an air of implicit superiority. Cliche of the "absentminded professor" applies especially to Fives with this wing. Environmentally sensitive and subject at times to total overwhelm. Touchy about criticism. Can be slow to recover from traumatic events. Melancholy isolation and bleak existential depression are possible pitfalls.

The 6 wing brings an orientation to detail and technical knowledge, along with the tendency to think in logical sequence. Especially intellectual, far more analytical than Fives with a 4 wing. Can be loyal friends, offering strong behind-the-scenes support. Kind, patient teachers, skillful experts. May have a sense of mission and work hard. Sometimes project an aura of sensitive nerdiness and have clumsy social skills. When defensive, they can be unnerved by the expectations of others. May like people more but avoid them more. Especially sensitive to social indebtedness. Could have trouble saying "thank you." Fear of taking action, develop "information addiction" instead. Ask lots of questions but don't get around to the decision at hand. When more entranced, they develop a suspicious scrutiny of other people's motives but can also be blind followers. Misanthropic and Scrooge-like when defensive. More able to keep their feelings cut off in a constant way. Can be cold, skeptical, ironic, and disassociated. A Five's 6 wing can be phobic or counterphobic. Counterphobic 6 wing brings courage and antiauthoritarian attitudes. When defensive they may mock authority, or angrily tell others off. Tend to "push the envelope," experiment, find what the limits are. -lifexplore

You believe it's possible to be completely positive of your enneagram type? Why? It's not written on you anywhere, and the tests aren't foolproof. I guess I'm confused by your confidence that such a thing can be known.

We can never be certain of anything. That's why pragmatism exists.

Yuck. Why in the world you feel entitled to being an authority on it? Not even Gurdjeff dared speaking this way. If this is a joke, fine. Otherwise, bah.

Why are you so averse to others attempting to achieving something, or to others helping others to achieve something?

I'm 7 or 9 but which one?

Their fundamental motivations for living are very different. 7s want to be satisfied. They'll probably to this by snapping up as many opportunities to enjoy themselves as possible, and the unhealthier they are, the more they'll want to do. They like variety in what they do. This is no concern for a 9. So long as there is peace and harmony in their surroundings, 9s are happy. They can indulge in the same activity for hours and hours and hours. This would be pure hell for a 7.

I don't mind being your test bunny.

I couldn't figure out how it works. Took the test. How many wings can a person have - I've 3 ties for e.g, and though I'm type 4 here, it is very close. How does this gel with the ENTP; and how do I inteprete the relation between the main and the wing?

Results as below:

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||| 65%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||||| 52%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||||| 65%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||||||||||||| 68%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||||| 61%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||| 65%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||||||| 51%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||| 31%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||| 45%

sp/so/sx.

Taking a guess, I think you're a 4 with identity issues, as opposed to someone who is relatively balanced in their many motivations. Because you're low in both 8 and 9, I think the anger triad can be ruled out. You're moderate in the fear triad, but your highest scores are in the shame triad. If you had to choose three types that were most like you in behaviour, what would they be?

Alright, here goes. I did three tests, and these were my results:

The first one I got was type 2, closely followed by type 7 and 9 equally.
The next test gave me type 2 and 9 equally, with type 3 and type 7 coming after that.
And the third test gave me type 7, then type 9 and then type 2.

And then the Instinctual Variant test gave me type 2 with a 3 wing, variant social, although in the description it mentioned that type 9 tends to mistype as 2 (and I felt the differences put me more on the 9 side).

So, what's your expert opinion? :P

I think the first results are always the most accurate. After a while, you begin to understand the patterns behind the questions, and you can pretty much manipulate the results to get what you want; subconsciously or not.

You're not the first person who I've heard of who's scored highly in 2, 7 and 9. Although each of them represent each of the hornevian triads - 2 is compliant, 7 is assertive, 9 is withdrawn - I can see how people might be confused between them. But they're still very different types. See my above comments on the differences between the 7 and the 9. The 2 is a different breed altogether. In contrast to the 2, the 7's and the 9's self-preservationism (I'm not talking about variants here) are so much easier to spot than they are in the 2 (to most people at least). The 2 'lives for others' outwardly, with their hidden agenda safely tucked away. They look like martyrs. Does a 7 look like a martyr? Does it fuck. It looks like someone who wants to enjoy themselves. Most if not all 7s are very self-focused, and are totally unashamed of it. Ask any of them, and they will tell you. The 9 isn't so self-centred, but their modesty is more genuine than that of the 2, simply because the 2 is normally the master of the social arena when compared with the 9, who may enjoy parties and social gatherings, but could just as easily derive enjoyment from eating a rich meal or having a bath or something. The 2 is other-focused. The 7 and the 9 are self-focused types, with the 7 taking top spot in obviousness of it.

Oh, you're a 972.3, obviously.

Seriously, though, women in many cultures have to be careful when they receive a "Two" rating, because they've been culturally pushed to perform in a Two role regardless of personality. This bias is well-known among enneagram practitioners.

I would see a Seven or Nine reading as normal for an MBTI ENFP type. The Sevens tend to be more energetic and into sampling a lot of things (experiences, sensations, etc.), whereas the Nine are more interested in peacekeeping and keeping life safe and stable. Seven behavior can lead into conflict because they're immersed in the world and pursuing things; Nines tend to show less energy or activity.

True, but as surprising as it seems, apparently the most common type for a 2 is an ENFP.

All right, I'll bite. Here are my results:

Type 1 Perfectionism - 74%
Type 2 Helpfulness - 18%
Type 3 Image Focus - 38%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity - 22%
Type 5 Detachment - 78%
Type 6 Anxiety - 70%
Type 7 Adventurousness - 26%
Type 8 Aggressiveness - 54%
Type 9 Calmness - 58%

Evidently I'm a 5, but I don't really understand the second number thing. Some numbers can't go together or somesuch?

5w6. What do you mean by the last sentence?

Mine's weird as always... since everyone else is posting results, here:

Type 6 Anxiety - 85%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity - 78%
Type 5 Detachment - 70%
Type 1 Perfectionism - 60%
Type 2 Helpfulness - 51%
Type 3 Image Focus - 50%
Type 9 Calmness - 41%
Type 8 Aggressiveness - 20%
Type 7 Adventurousness - 14%

sp/so/sx

I presume I'm a 4w5 based on various previous assessments.

Why do you think you're not a 6w5?

[Athenian200]

We can never be certain of anything. That's why pragmatism exists.


That's right... If you understand that, then perhaps you can determine enneagram types with good accuracy. But what I'm asking is, what's the source of your confidence that you understand the enneagram better than most other people? Intensive study? Formal training? Strong ability to read people?

But I have to admit I'm curious as to whether you agree that I'm a 4w5. I can always use more information, opinions, and ideas on the matter, after all. Of course, if you're busy helping people who really don't understand this at all, then don't worry about it...


Evidently I'm a 5, but I don't really understand the second number thing. Some numbers can't go together or somesuch?

You have one core type, and one "wing" that modifies it's characteristics (some claim to be wingless, however). Your wing must be one of the types adjacent to your core type. For instance, a 5 can have either a 6 or a 4 wing. It gets complicated with 9 and 1, however. A 9 can have a 1 or 8 wing, and a 1 can have a 9 or 2 wing. The rest of it is fairly predictable.

[Ezra]

That's right... If you understand that, then... perhaps you can determine enneagram types with good accuracy. But what I'm asking is, what's the source of your confidence that you understand the enneagram better than most other people? Intensive study? Formal training? Strong ability to read people?

I dunno. I just want people to be more confident in and certain of themselves, because I believe this is a fundamentally good thing.

[MerkW]

Technically speaking, I think the 5w4 description might describe me a little better than 5w6, yet at the same time, I am much more scientific than artistic.

[white]

Taking a guess, I think you're a 4 with identity issues, as opposed to someone who is relatively balanced in their many motivations. Because you're low in both 8 and 9, I think the anger triad can be ruled out. You're moderate in the fear triad, but your highest scores are in the shame triad. If you had to choose three types that were most like you in behaviour, what would they be?


Thanks for that - I was reading through all the descriptions, and it is a little difficult to pick - I see traits and motivations in each of the descriptions that ring true to me, but on the other hand, disagree with some of them. I guess the closest are 1/2, 3, 4. Not sure the order though.

e.g. on the 4, artistic - I write, and love grace and refinement. But I'm not really the explosive passionate drama-mama IRL. Feelings are important, but I make decisions more with the head than the heart usually.

on the 1:
Agree with: Ones learn to repress their emotions and instincts in order to stay true to their principles. By trying to become perfect, they create their own personal hells. Only when they realize that it is important to trust life and accept things the way they are can they truly improve themselves.

Disagree with: Ones are people who feel a need to improve their environments and overcome moral adversity in order to make the world a better place.

3: Fits:
they know how to develop themselves in order to become the best they can be, and they are often well-liked and successful in whatever field they choose.

Disagree: They aim for success because they are afraid of becoming a "nobody" with no value. -> I aim to accomplish what I set out to do, and success is a by-product of that in a way, and not the goal? I'd rather have a fulfilling private life than a public one. Privacy is very important to me?

2. Compassion, being able to give back and help is important to me. The saying "to those whom much is given, much is expected" is something I hold to. But I'm not likely to quit my job and be Mother Theresa, if you get my drift?

Erps. I don't suppose I could just have multiple wings right? *lol*

[alcea rosea]

Their fundamental motivations for living are very different. 7s want to be satisfied. They'll probably to this by snapping up as many opportunities to enjoy themselves as possible, and the unhealthier they are, the more they'll want to do. They like variety in what they do. This is no concern for a 9. So long as there is peace and harmony in their surroundings, 9s are happy. They can indulge in the same activity for hours and hours and hours. This would be pure hell for a 7.


I took some enneagram tests (again), here are the results:
test1 (http://www.9types.com/newtest/homepage.actual.html)
Type 1 -7
Type 2 5
Type 3 -4
Type 4 -2
Type 5 -7
Type 6 1
Type 7 3
Type 8 3
Type 9 8

test 2 (http://similarminds.com/cgi-bin/word.pl)

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||| 54%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||| 46%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||| 54%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||| 18%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||||||||| 66%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||||| 46%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||||||| 66%

I feel more 9 inside than 7 althought I have lot of 7 in me too. So I cannot decide. What can you tell me about 9w8 and 7w8?

[Ezra]

Thanks for that - I was reading through all the descriptions, and it is a little difficult to pick - I see traits and motivations in each of the descriptions that ring true to me, but on the other hand, disagree with some of them. I guess the closest are 1/2, 3, 4. Not sure the order though.

e.g. on the 4, artistic - I write, and love grace and refinement. But I'm not really the explosive passionate drama-mama IRL. Feelings are important, but I make decisions more with the head than the heart usually.

on the 1:
Agree with: Ones learn to repress their emotions and instincts in order to stay true to their principles. By trying to become perfect, they create their own personal hells. Only when they realize that it is important to trust life and accept things the way they are can they truly improve themselves.

Disagree with: Ones are people who feel a need to improve their environments and overcome moral adversity in order to make the world a better place.

3: Fits:
they know how to develop themselves in order to become the best they can be, and they are often well-liked and successful in whatever field they choose.

Disagree: They aim for success because they are afraid of becoming a "nobody" with no value. -> I aim to accomplish what I set out to do, and success is a by-product of that in a way, and not the goal? I'd rather have a fulfilling private life than a public one. Privacy is very important to me?

2. Compassion, being able to give back and help is important to me. The saying "to those whom much is given, much is expected" is something I hold to. But I'm not likely to quit my job and be Mother Theresa, if you get my drift?

Erps. I don't suppose I could just have multiple wings right? *lol*

I think you could be a 3w4. How does that flow with you?

I took some enneagram tests (again), here are the results:
test1 (http://www.9types.com/newtest/homepage.actual.html)
Type 1 -7
Type 2 5
Type 3 -4
Type 4 -2
Type 5 -7
Type 6 1
Type 7 3
Type 8 3
Type 9 8

test 2 (http://similarminds.com/cgi-bin/word.pl)

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||| 54%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||| 46%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||| 54%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||| 18%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||||||||| 66%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||||| 46%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||||||| 66%

I feel more 9 inside than 7 althought I have lot of 7 in me too. So I cannot decide. What can you tell me about 9w8 and 7w8?

That they're totally different.

Let's try another approach. What are your energy levels like?

Then answer this: when you walk into a party, are you withdrawn, with your head in the clouds, thinking about what could happen at another time that day or whatever e.g. "ooh, dinner was gorgeous - I could do with a nice, hot bath now", similing and nodding when people talk to you, or do you walk into a party and think "everyone! Look at me! Now I'm here, we're gonna have a lot of fun!" mingling with as many people as you can, pulling some chicks (if you're a guy) or flirting with or wooing guys (if you're a girl)?

[alcea rosea]

That they're totally different.
Let's try another approach. What are your energy levels like?

Very high mentally but not as high physically.

[Mycroft]

5w6. What do you mean by the last sentence?


Athenian answered my question. Thanks.

[MerkW]

The fundamental difference between the 5w4 and the 5w6 is easier to spot than in the other types. It's simple: do you spend a lot more time studying technical things, like philosophy or HTML coding, or is most of your time dedicated to artistic pursuits?

Read this. Which sounds more like you?
...etc.


Those descriptions apply to me equally. I do, in fact, spend more time with scientific pursuits, rather than those which are artistic, though. But is that really enough to determine my wing?

So, "Papa" Ezra, what wing am I? I must know.

[htb]

I hereby add to the general confusion.

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||||| 74%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||| 34%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||| 22%
Type 5 Detachment |||| 18%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||||| 42%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||||||||| 66%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||| 50%

[MerkW]

I hereby add to the general confusion.

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||||| 74%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||| 34%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||| 22%
Type 5 Detachment |||| 18%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||||| 42%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||||||||| 66%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||| 50%

An INTJ scores lowest on type 5? Unheard of. Are you sure that you are not an ENTJ?

[htb]

Are you sure that you are not an ENTJ?This dovetails with my response to your "Oh, how it irks me" thread, in that I don't exhibit (nor particularly like) the habits of indirection and withdrawal that this forum's declared IJs and IPs evidently show. Honestly, the only reason why I haven't changed my identification is that I can't yet quite believe I'm one.

[white]

I think you could be a 3w4. How does that flow with you?

1. Having a hard time relating to the examples given as 3w4s, are they accurate?

2. Actually, I'm more comfortable if I'm not so much in the spotlight. I'm not a behind-the-scenes person, and am more comfortable in a middle office role vs front for e.g., but I'm usually being pushed to the front. Communication is usually easy for me. But I don't like being a role model and am happier in a team vs in the lead. I'm not emotionally needy with everyone, I'd rather the affection of those who matter to me.

3. Honesty and kindness are important to me. In a relationship, compassion would be a key value in a partner to me for e.g.

4. lol. Confused.

Three With A Four Wing: The Professional

Examples of 3w4s
Some well-known examples of 3w4s are Barbra Streisand, Oprah Winfrey, Tom Cruise, Ben Kingsley, Madonna, Sting, Richard Gere, Michael Jordan, Whitney Houston, F. Scott Fitzgerald, and Werner Erhard.


Levels of Development

Healthy

Level 1
Achievers let go of their belief that their self-worth depends on others' perception of them. They can now discover their true identity and their heart's desire. Achievers' also satisfy their basic desire to be valued. They become self-accepting, kind, and genuine.

Level 2
Achievers learn what others value and become more valuable in that sense. They feel they have unlimited potential at this stage.

Level 3
Achievers develop themselves and their talents at this stage. They become excellent at whatever they do. They are effective communicators and become popular role models for other people.

Average
Level 4
Achievers start to fear that they will not get the attention that they desire, because others' accomplishments overshadow theirs. They drive themselves to achieve more.

Level 5
Achievers start to impress people because they fear they will lose the positive regard of others, so they are simultaneously ambitious and self-doubting. At this stage, they have intimacy problems.

Level 6
Achievers attempt to convince others of their huge successes, because they fear that others will not notice them if they are not hugely successful. They are competitive, arrogant, and secretly needy.

Unhealthy
Level 7
Achievers at this level fear they are failing and that their claims are fraudulent, so they start to deceive themselves and others. They feel depressed and empty inside.

Level 8
Deceit at this level is incredibly high, and they use deceit to cover their mental deterioration. They hide their emotional illness and bad deeds.

Level 9
Unhealthy people at this level may lose control of their repressed rage, and they seek revenge on real or imaginary tormentors, attempting to bring down whoever has rejected them.

[Mycroft]

This dovetails with my response to your "Oh, how it irks me" thread, in that I don't exhibit (nor particularly like) the habits of indirection and withdrawal that this forum's declared IJs and IPs evidently show.


You've piqued my interest. Can you cite some specific examples?

[Ezra]

Those descriptions apply to me equally. I do, in fact, spend more time with scientific pursuits, rather than those which are artistic, though. But is that really enough to determine my wing?

So, "Papa" Ezra, what wing am I? I must know.

Even by your speech I can tell you're a 5w6. But this isn't really factual evidence.

You're high in Thinking (88%) which leans towards a 6 wing. 5s can easily be Fs, and when they are, this normally implies a 4 wing. This is because a 4 is part of the Feeling triad, so is almost always going to be a Feeler. (However, 3s are the exception to the rule; they are a special case which I will not go into here.) While 6s are pretty much unlimited when it comes to MBTT, a 5w6 or a 6w5 will nearly always be a Thinker. On top of this, you've said you dedicate yourself more to technical pursuits. A 5w4 would basically be repulsed by this kind of thing.

I think you have relatively balanced wings, with a leaning towards 5w6. This much I can offer you. Beware of spending too much time looking at wings though; I've only really begun seen them as a tool for identifying different types (recently, I've been caught up in trying to identify my wing). For example, take the 8w9. At first glance, it looks nothing like the 8, to the point where 8w9s may not even identify with various descriptions of the 8 but of the 9, because said descriptions are so biased towards 8w7s; the 'stereotypical' 8. However, if someone introduces a description which helps the individual to identify themselves, then they will find their type: "what is this new breed of 8 that is gentler, kinder and quieter?". So a 5w4 may very easily be mistaken for a 4, simply because their wing is strong, and their behaviour may overshadow their true motivation or fixation, which is of the 5. Once you understand that motivations are more important than type behaviour, it will become easier to identify your type. However, if you really want to label yourself complete with wing, I suggest 5w6 would fit very comfortably for you.

I hereby add to the general confusion.

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||||| 74%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||| 34%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||| 22%
Type 5 Detachment |||| 18%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||||| 42%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||||||||| 66%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||| 50%

Yeah, but do you have trouble determining your type? That's what this thread is about. For people who can't decide. From your results, I'd say 8w9 or 1w9 was not implausible. I'd say 8w9 was more likely, but this is only because you scored higher on 7 than on 2. Nonetheless, this is merely other types' behaviour, so you could well be a 1. What do you think you are?

1. Having a hard time relating to the examples given as 3w4s, are they accurate?

Show me the examples of 3w4s that you've read about.

2. Actually, I'm more comfortable if I'm not so much in the spotlight. I'm not a behind-the-scenes person, and am more comfortable in a middle office role vs front for e.g., but I'm usually being pushed to the front. Communication is usually easy for me. But I don't like being a role model and am happier in a team vs in the lead. I'm not emotionally needy with everyone, I'd rather the affection of those who matter to me.

This could be related more to Introversion than your being a 3w4. Are you sure you're an ENTP?

3. Honesty and kindness are important to me. In a relationship, compassion would be a key value in a partner to me for e.g.

This doesn't rule out 3w4.

4. lol. Confused.

Three With A Four Wing: The Professional

Examples of 3w4s
Some well-known examples of 3w4s are Barbra Streisand, Oprah Winfrey, Tom Cruise, Ben Kingsley, Madonna, Sting, Richard Gere, Michael Jordan, Whitney Houston, F. Scott Fitzgerald, and Werner Erhard.


Levels of Development

Healthy

Level 1
Achievers let go of their belief that their self-worth depends on others' perception of them. They can now discover their true identity and their heart's desire. Achievers' also satisfy their basic desire to be valued. They become self-accepting, kind, and genuine.

Level 2
Achievers learn what others value and become more valuable in that sense. They feel they have unlimited potential at this stage.

Level 3
Achievers develop themselves and their talents at this stage. They become excellent at whatever they do. They are effective communicators and become popular role models for other people.

Average
Level 4
Achievers start to fear that they will not get the attention that they desire, because others' accomplishments overshadow theirs. They drive themselves to achieve more.

Level 5
Achievers start to impress people because they fear they will lose the positive regard of others, so they are simultaneously ambitious and self-doubting. At this stage, they have intimacy problems.

Level 6
Achievers attempt to convince others of their huge successes, because they fear that others will not notice them if they are not hugely successful. They are competitive, arrogant, and secretly needy.

Unhealthy
Level 7
Achievers at this level fear they are failing and that their claims are fraudulent, so they start to deceive themselves and others. They feel depressed and empty inside.

Level 8
Deceit at this level is incredibly high, and they use deceit to cover their mental deterioration. They hide their emotional illness and bad deeds.

Level 9
Unhealthy people at this level may lose control of their repressed rage, and they seek revenge on real or imaginary tormentors, attempting to bring down whoever has rejected them.

Why does this confuse you?

[MerkW]

Despite my thinking being high (88%), my intuition is even higher (100%). I hear that 5w4 relies more on intuition than on thinking. Also, contrary to what you have stated, I have heard that despite the 4 wing, the 5 generally makes a 5w4 a thinker.

[white]

Show me the examples of 3w4s that you've read about.

"Some well-known examples of 3w4s are Barbra Streisand, Oprah Winfrey, Tom Cruise, Ben Kingsley, Madonna, Sting, Richard Gere, Michael Jordan, Whitney Houston, F. Scott Fitzgerald, and Werner Erhard."

I'm not really able to relate to these examples, which is why I'm uncertain that I'm 3w4. Not so much the descriptions, but the examples - they strike me as very driven, public, type A persons, and as you've pointed out, I generally test low on aggression?

This could be related more to Introversion than your being a 3w4. Are you sure you're an ENTP?

Borderline I/E, but most INTPs will boot me out of their camp anytime I say I'm an I. :D I take this to mean that I'm hopefully a more developed ENTP such that I'm engaging the auxilliary function more vs being trapped in Ne-ness.

Why does this confuse you?

The levels of development - if 3w4 identifying characteristics/motivations are the self-image and need of recognition, wouldn't that somehow mean a mature (level 1/2 type) 3w4 is not really a 3w4; since in that description, they "let go" of that need for external acceptance and instead go for inner acceptance - is this to be intepreted as a loss of drive then?

So the inherent question I have is, does one type develop to another type over time? With the MBTI, the types are stickier/rarely changes, as I understand?

thanks for your help in this btw. Ezra means "help" in Hebrew, doesn't it? :)

[htb]

You've piqued my interest. Can you cite some specific examples?Admissions are in this thread (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nt-rationale/867-top-three-reasons-why-ints-suck.html) from start to finish, acknowledging specific terms used therein ("over-thinking," "procrastinating," "bottle up," "passive-aggressive," "ignore," "dismiss out of hand," etcetera). There are also references here (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nt-rationale/2516-intp-rebellion.html), here (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/3004-infjs-describe-yourself.html); and, to complete the set, here (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/3108-interesting-question-nfps.html). By no means exhaustive, but comprehensive, as you should have expected.

Yeah, but do you have trouble determining your type?No. But though I was merrily interjecting myself, the difference in accuracy between the Enneagram and MBTI is compelling -- insofar as one result clarifies the other.

[Ezra]

"Some well-known examples of 3w4s are Barbra Streisand, Oprah Winfrey, Tom Cruise, Ben Kingsley, Madonna, Sting, Richard Gere, Michael Jordan, Whitney Houston, F. Scott Fitzgerald, and Werner Erhard."

I'm not really able to relate to these examples, which is why I'm uncertain that I'm 3w4. Not so much the descriptions, but the examples - they strike me as very driven, public, type A persons, and as you've pointed out, I generally test low on aggression?

That's because you're looking at celebrities. There are a million 3w4s out there, and not all of them are in Hollywood. Does Mel Gibson strike you as a very driven, public, type A person? He's a cp6w5. How about Robin Williams? 7w6. And Kevin Costner? He's a 9w8. They're driven, public and type A because they're celebrities. Obviously 3w4s will probably be more driven, but a 3w4 - unlike a 3w2 - is all about competing with oneself as opposed to others. It's a naturally introverted 3 (that isn't to say 3w4s can't be extraverted; indeed, a great many are. ENTJ is typical for a 3w4).

Borderline I/E, but most INTPs will boot me out of their camp anytime I say I'm an I. :D I take this to mean that I'm hopefully a more developed ENTP such that I'm engaging the auxilliary function more vs being trapped in Ne-ness.

What types would you seriously never consider for yourself in a million years?

The levels of development - if 3w4 identifying characteristics/motivations are the self-image and need of recognition, wouldn't that somehow mean a mature (level 1/2 type) 3w4 is not really a 3w4; since in that description, they "let go" of that need for external acceptance and instead go for inner acceptance - is this to be intepreted as a loss of drive then?

It is inner acceptance, but I think it's actually easier for a 3w4 to accept themselves than the almost 100%-outward 3w2. This is because the 3w4 is introspective, thanks to their 4 wing.

So the inherent question I have is, does one type develop to another type over time? With the MBTI, the types are stickier/rarely changes, as I understand?

In the Enneagram, you do not change types. You are more likely to change your Myers-Briggs type than your E-type, simply because your E-type will not change. You grow; you can integrate and disintegrate, or at least temporarily go to your security and stress points (which is what most people do when they think they've (dis)integrated), but your base type remains the same. You can, after all, only have one motivation in life.

thanks for your help in this btw. Ezra means "help" in Hebrew, doesn't it? :)

It does indeed.

My advice is to spend some time pondering your motivations. Then come back to me. I couldn't really see an INTP 3w4, simply because an IP 3 doesn't seem right. On the celebs, it's because they're celebrities that you don't identify with them. But there are plenty of non-celebrities who are 3s.

[white]

Papa Ezra! I'm back. :D Thanks for your email and sorry for not replying.

Thought it better here vs to derail the other thread.

Yes, I was reading through their descriptions and realised 4s don't sound very NT in a sense.

I can see where the "artisan" sensitivity could come about - Used to write poetry and was published before. Learnt music (piano) from about the age of 2. stopped formal lessons at 10, but now play whatever I want - if I can hear a piece, I can replicate it to a fair degree. Right now I'm into dance. Don't ask me to perform though, I just want to dance.

re F vs T:

I used to be strong T, but recently tested as moderate T. Previously borderline E. Strong N, T, P. (Official test by an MBTI administrator - done when I was 17. Government required it *lol* don't ask.). Now borderline E, strong N, moderate T, P. (Official test one-on-one with an MBTI trained administrator - 27. Job required it).

Socially, strong T females face a fair bit of resistance in my country. I'm also in a job which requires a great deal of F as it is very people focused, and I'm out of my country on work about 2-3 months a year in foreign places, in the last 3 of 5 years. In a sense, I've had to engage my Fe more, if you like. Doesn't allow I for sure. To get people to work in a team requires that they trust you will take care of them, and as I'm frequently the youngest in my job, the Ne helps to intuite what would work, and frequently, the answer is Fe to catch their hearts, and Ti to catch their minds. I trust my intuition above all else.

But at the same time, logic is required in my field as well. The pull between Fe and Ti is not so simple to explain. In fact it causes a lot of insecurity to me. On this board I come across more F than T probably. But at the end of the day, I'd rather make decisions with my head vs heart. The challenge is more trying to reconcile it IRL to come across intelligent, but approachable too.

* If I were an ENFP, I think relationships would be much easier for me IRL.

Re which types will I not consider myself in a million years:

Any S led function. J is hard for me to engage, but because of my job, I have to make decisions, so that has in a way balanced my P out to moderate, I think.

Re shame led triad: Probably part of growing up, as an ENTP, you somehow meet everyone's expectations easily. And more is expected of you. So in a way, you internalise it and never allow yourself to fail. But I guess we all grow up, so I'm less a stickler on that now, as you'd never get anything done if you want it perfect - I think this is why the scores with the next triad are only 7% different.

If you'd allow me to drop the Enneagram types and terms to say what motivates me, it'd be these:

- family wellbeing. For this, I'll have to succeed career-wise. I'm not in a job I naturally enjoy, as it does not give space for creativity in the abstract sense I like and space to dream, and has too much people pleasing for my tastes, but I mean to do it well anyway? There're things I don't like about it, there're things I like too, but at the end of the day, I'll do it.

- self - to be more compassionate to others. I've been involved with volunteer work for the last 10 years, but I'd like to do more? Be more patient. Less hard on myself. To find balance. Bring refinement and grace to things I do. To not act in haste, but to let time tell on some things.

I'm not sure that helps. . Perhaps where you're seeing the conflict is simply between duty and personal desires.

[Ezra]

Right, disregarding all test results following from what you just told me, I can only see that the Fear triad and E8 are possible. And while I don't think you're an 8, the possibility remains.

5w6 is not unlikely. Neither is 6w5. 7 is unlikely, but, again, possible.

As a woman 8, you can look like a 2. How far do you identify with 8? I think 8w9 is a great possibility than 8w7. Also, as a side reference, tell me how you feel about 7.

Then, in some detail, tell me why you don't think you are a 6 or a 5.

[white]

Right, disregarding all test results following from what you just told me, I can only see that the Fear triad and E8 are possible. And while I don't think you're an 8, the possibility remains.

5w6 is not unlikely. Neither is 6w5. 7 is unlikely, but, again, possible.

As a woman 8, you can look like a 2. How far do you identify with 8? I think 8w9 is a great possibility than 8w7. Also, as a side reference, tell me how you feel about 7.

Then, in some detail, tell me why you don't think you are a 6 or a 5.

Ok, let's go one by one. Cancelled out where it isn't like. Bolded where very true. Unbolded where it isn't true nor false (too general in a way)

* Edit: I was doing the same for 6s and 5s, but realised too much cancelled out, so it wouldn't work.

8w7
===============
Awakened Eights with a 7 wing are often expansive, and powerful. Gregarious and generous, they may display a cheerful bravado. Can be forceful but with a light touch, funny. Often have a sense of humor about themselves. Generally more extroverted, ambitious and materialistic. May talk loud and be sociable partygoers.

Sometimes driven to bring the new into being. Can be visionary, idealistic, enterprising. Willing to take risks. May think more clearly than Eights with a 9 wing; 7 wing brings an intellectual capacity.

When more entranced, aggression combines with gluttony to form an almost virulent tendency to addiction. Many entranced Eights with a 7 wing have had drug and alcohol problems or tensions around addiction. Prone to temperamental ups and downs - can be moody, egocentric, quick to anger. Tendency to court chaos, inflate themselves narcissistically. Some are ruthlessly materialistic. Can use people up, suck them dry. Maybe be explosive or violent, prone to distorted overreaction.


8w9

Healthy Eights with a 9 wing often have an aura of preternatural calm, like they haven't had a self-doubt in decades. (It could be why at work I lead teams older than myself). Take their authority for granted - queen or king of all they survey. May be gentle, kind-hearted, quieter. Often nurturing, protective parents; steady, supportive friends. Informal and unpretentious, patient, laconic, generally somewhat introverted. Sometimes a dry or ironic sense of humor. May have an aura of implicit, simmering anger rather like a sleeping volcano. Slow to erupt but when they do it's sudden and explosive.

When entranced, the 9 wing brings an Eight a kind of callous numbness. They can be oblivious to the force of their anger until after they've hurt someone. Calmly dominating, colder; may have an indifference to softer emotions. If very unhealthy, they can be mean without remorse or aggressive in the service of stupid ends. Paranoid plotting, muddled thinking, moral laziness. Can be vengeful in ill-conceived ways, abuse those they love, don't know when to quit.

7w6 <- this sounds very likely actually.
=========

Healthy Sevens with a 6 wing are responsible, faithful, lovable, nervous and funny. They are generally more oriented to relationship and want to be accepted by other people. Can be steady, more willing to stick with commitments; the 6 wing brings a longer sense of time. Usually funny or enjoy a good laugh - an amazing number of comedians are Sevens with a 6 wing. More openly vulnerable, have an unguarded, tender sweetness. Some have trouble expressing anger even when they are justified. May evade or finesse authority but still aware of it like a 6. Canny and practical, they look for the deals and the loopholes.

When more entranced, may have surprise episodes of sensitivity and insecurity. Their feelings can be easily hurt sometimes. Sensitive especially to comparisons. May avoid putting themselves to the test. Grow dependent and addicted to other people, afraid to be alone, suspicious and skittish. Can feel guilt easily, may project their conscience onto others and then act irresponsibly. Make themselves shallow, fall in and out of love easily. Sometimes breezily betray others by running away. Can be reckless, unstable, and self-destructive.

When Sevens have a counterphobic 6 wing their idealism can motivate a sincere desire for social reform. May work hard for a cause. Can be antiauthority, passive/aggressive, flippant, defiant. Some report hating to be told what to do. Clashes with Ones likely. May call down trouble on themselves. Complain about the status quo. The realm of hippie rebellion.


7w8
============

Seven With an 8 Wing
When healthy, Sevens with an 8 wing are often generous, gregarious and expansive. Tend to be exceptionally loyal to their friends, especially when social subtype. Leap aggressively to the defense of those they care for. Might seem loud or boisterous although some are urbane and witty. Enjoy social celebrations, storytelling, jokes, food and travel. Generally have a strong self-confidence for worldly matters and getting what they want. Talent for making something out of nothing - entrepreneurial. Usually share what they have when healthy, want everyone to enjoy their sense of bounty and wide range of interests.

When more entranced, they may be demanding, displaying a selfish impatience and a self-justifying narcissism. May want what they want right now. Aggressive, hasty drive to acquire money and material options and recognition. Can demand that the people in their lives say only what the Seven wants to hear - sugarcoated truth. Lash out angrily if reality doesn't meet their expectations; sometimes vengeful. Often perfectionistic as parents (low side of 1). Moralize to others and then are themselves irresponsible. Amnesia for promises made in an expansive moment. Particular difficulty with sexual fidelity.

[Ezra]

I would rule out 8 entirely. I think you're almost certainly a 7w6, and as you've identified with most of the healthier aspects of this type, I'd say you're an average-to-healthy 7w6. Clearly you take aspects of the 8, because it's your wing, and because 8w7s can often look like 7s anyway. A 7 you are.

Any problems? Good.

[white]

:yay:

Gracias papi Ezra. :yes:

[Maverick]

I find these Enneagram descriptions to be too one-dimensional.

I relate better to a combination of them (strongest aspects in bold)

I'm generally very calm and peaceful like this:

Have an aura of preternatural calm, like they haven't had a self-doubt in decades. May be gentle, kind-hearted, quieter. Often nurturing, protective parents; steady, supportive friends. Informal and unpretentious, patient, laconic, generally somewhat introverted. Sometimes a dry or ironic sense of humor. May have an aura of implicit, simmering anger rather like a sleeping volcano.

Healthy connection to 5 brings mental clarity. Begin to think coherently; Eights are more strategic and systematic when this connection is active. Develop an objective perspective that helps them depersonalize and pull back from narcissistic overreaction. Take the long view, think things through, pause before they react. Can grow philosophical. Sometimes studious and introspective. May develop an intellectual streak, especially with a 7 wing. Connection also helps take the edge off Eight's addictive tendencies. They consume less, keep their own counsel, grow more moderate in their behavior.

Ones with this wing can have an aura of 9-like calm although eruptions of temper are possible. Often have a detached quality and can be mistaken for Fives. Tendency to formulate and embrace principles that have little human content, but this is also their strength. When awakened, may be objective and balanced, cool and moderate in their evaluations. More entranced, might have perfectionistic expectations that are not humanly possible to meet. May hold social or political opinions that are supremely logical but ultimately heartless and draconian.

Once I have thought out a plan of action, have a goal I need to achieve, or am having a good time with people, I act like this:

Awakened Eights with a 7 wing are often expansive, and powerful. Gregarious and generous, they may display a cheerful bravado. Can be forceful but with a light touch, funny. Often have a sense of humor about themselves. Generally more extroverted, ambitious and materialistic. May talk loud and be sociable partygoers.

Sometimes driven to bring the new into being. Can be visionary, idealistic, enterprising. Willing to take risks. May think more clearly than Eights with a 9 wing; 7 wing brings an intellectual capacity.

When more entranced, aggression combines with gluttony to form an almost virulent tendency to addiction. Many entranced Eights with a 7 wing have had drug and alcohol problems or tensions around addiction. Prone to temperamental ups and downs - can be moody, egocentric, quick to anger. Tendency to court chaos, inflate themselves narcissistically. Some are ruthlessly materialistic. Can use people up, suck them dry. Maybe be explosive or violent, prone to distorted overreaction.

Social Eights are often loyal to a group and conceive of friendship as a pact of mutual protection. Want everyone to benefit; group's cohesion and welfare is most important to them. Often oriented to family, honest, hold themselves accountable to others. May be the group's protector or provider. Emphasis on cooperation.

When healthy, they are aggressively blustery but will back down and apologize when they've been unfair. More able to say the Three Little Words -"I was wrong." Stronger connection to 2, can emotionally switch places with others in their chosen group. As friends they want to protect what's soft or young in you and appreciate the same in return. Hostility directed towards outside forces who threatens the group's welfare

It's the alternation of NT thinking and strategizing with EJ action and EN spontaneity/cheerfulness.

Oh, and all this thing about strength in 8's, etc. For me strength = competence. I am really not especially strong physically. I'm tall but of average complexion. I also am not at all physically aggressive. I don't back down from physical confrontation though. I think ENTJ's, being NT's and "nerdy" at heart, lead more through their sheer self-confidence, competence and charisma.

["?"]

Very well then. I know that I am a 5. I know I am sp/sx. But am I 5w4 or 5w6? I can't decide. It keeps switching back and forth. I am very irritated by this. Which am I?To expound on your question, why is it necessary to distinguish one's wing since the variant stacking gives similar descriptions? For example in Merkw's case, here is a description of 5sp/sx:This subtype, like the self-pres/social, is more typical of the depictions of type Five. The self-preservational instinct accentuates the self-contained, withdrawing tendencies of the Five. Fives of this subtype love their time alone with a passion, and pursue it more actively even than the other subtype of self-pres Five, although with the sexual instinct second, they often want to find time for intimates as well. On the down side, they have more disdain for people and little use for the social aspects of life. They want to be left alone or they want to share their inner world with their intimates. The intensity of the sexual instinct is reserved for their intimates and even there it is sporadic. The self-pres energy gives this subtype a solid foundation and some degree of practicality.

These Fives are conflicted when it comes to experiencing and expressing emotions. They usually default to emotional repression and to detached intellectual analysis. This is a dynamic common to all Fives, but with the self-pres/sexual instinctual stacking, the balance of these forces is pretty precarious and it seems as though the scales are being constantly adjusted one way or another. As the social instinct is the least developed, the social arena gets the drier more intellectual approach almost by default.This type description as an example could fit 5w4 (http://mindheart.org/junction/oldcj/ep/types/5/54.html) or 5w6 (http://mindheart.org/junction/oldcj/ep/types/5/56.html), depending on which fits best. It could also be be a comibination, however it seems that 5w4 (http://www.thechangeworks.com/ennprimer/fineenn9styls1.html#anchor1998933) may be most like the so/sx subtype.

[Ezra]

Maverick, you're just like this other guy on the16types, an LIE (ENTj) and INTJ in MBTT. He calls himself an 8w9, but I think he's a 5w6 or 6w5.

Basically, he believes the types are too one dimensional, and that it is much harder to fit some people into Enneagram types than it is to fit them into socionics types.

If I was to take a stab at you, I'd say you a bit like me; an 8w9 with a strong, healthy link to 5. Contrary to what you say about my own link to 5, I've seen the healthy aspects of it in me, and I think in you they're simply more developed.

However, there are two further possibilities. Firstly, that you are a healthy 5 who has begun to show characteristics of the 8; the 5's security point. Alternatively, you're a 1w9. The only reason I say this is because of your point about competence. 5s and 1s love competence. However, if you're an 8w9, this could just be because you're an ENTJ, and so naturally and by definition are attracted to competence.

["?"]

My type is most likely 9 so/sp/sx: Social Nines feel the need for validation and for "fitting in" but they feel these indirectly. They move towards others in a way which can resemble Twos, but they are motivated by a desire to initiate and maintain contact without provoking conflict. On the high side, the social/self-pres Nine generally knows a lot of people and gets along with most everyone. They are helpful people who generally have a great sense of humor. They get involved with the social environment. They might be the soccer coach, or if politically inclined, they might join and participate in a political party. When in leadership roles, they lead by consensus and charm. Their skill is in conflict management. With the sexual instinct last, they tend to avoid intensity, but they are actively involved with people.

Intimate relationships might be frustrating for the partner of this subtype of Nine because the Nine's social engagements might make the partner feel as though the Nine is connected with everyone except them. Sometimes this subtype can use their social connections in a passive-aggressive way against the partner; they might withhold attention from the partner in lieu of spending time with friends.I personally think this could, and most likely is, 9w8 more than 9w1. Since I generally score equally (within one point) and very low on 8 and 1, I have come out as 9 omni on occasion.

[TaylorS]

I took some enneagram tests (again), here are the results:
test1 (http://www.9types.com/newtest/homepage.actual.html)
Type 1 -7
Type 2 5
Type 3 -4
Type 4 -2
Type 5 -7
Type 6 1
Type 7 3
Type 8 3
Type 9 8

test 2 (http://similarminds.com/cgi-bin/word.pl)

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||| 54%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||| 46%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||| 54%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||| 18%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||||||||| 66%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||||| 46%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||||||| 66%

I feel more 9 inside than 7 althought I have lot of 7 in me too. So I cannot decide. What can you tell me about 9w8 and 7w8?

Type 1: 6
Type 2: -10
Type 3: -3
Type 4: 6
Type 5: 9
Type 6: -11
Type 7: 2
Type 8: -2
Type 9: 3

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||| 26%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||| 50%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||| 38%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||||||| 74%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||| 30%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||| 22%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||||| 42%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||||| 58%

My MBTI results are usually very strong I, very strong N, moderately strong T, and weak to borderline P.

[TaylorS]

Descriptions that sound like me are bolded.

five with four wing


general description

Average 5/4 is the prototype personality for research scientists. Analytical and detached from their emotions, but passionate about beauty and truth, they want to find the ultimate, simple explanation for everything. Their intellectual fiveness makes them likely to engage in long, professorial monologues, while their four-wing gives them a shy self-consciousness. Unlike the more depressive 4/5, they are likely to have a generally optimistic view, although they can get depressed if they become overwhelmed by the world's demands. 5/4s are usually less interested in social interactions than the more other-dependent 5/6.


balanced and transcendent states

Balanced 5/4 is more able to participate in life. When the fiveish desire to withdraw and sort things out is no longer compulsive, then the consciously chosen time alone becomes a tool for understanding the world, rather than an entrapping habit. The fourish passion for beauty emerges as the conscious result of harnessing the emotions rather than being their slave. Healthy 5/4s begin to deeply understand the simple, elegant way that the awesome complexity of the world emerges from fundamental principles. They find great joy in watching and learning.

When the perception of five and the passion of four are augmented by eight's power and leadership, plus one's intuitive wisdom, clear comprehensions can be transmitted to others. Very balanced 5/4s can be tremendously creative teachers of How The World Works, who explain things with clean, elegant sentences. Yet for all its simple clarity, their teaching carries with it a profound appreciation for the subtle beauty of Creation. Come with me on a journey of discovery. Let's look together at the awsome profundity of Nature and Consciousness.


unbalanced and unhealthy states

Unbalanced 5/4 gets lost in the details. The compulsive analysis of five can lead to elaborate pseudo-logical constructions designed to explain everything. The four-wing's emotionality adds a flavor of dramatic hopelessness. Others Simply Do Not Understand. No one could understand. So 5/4 retreats to a place of safety, hoping to escape from view, continuing to uncover the truth. There is little to no social involvement.

In the extreme, the panic and scattered mania of seven combine with twoish self-congratulatory hysteria. In a seeming reversal, 5/4 can come back into the world, awkward and excitable, ready to bolt but equally ready to passionately defend a bizarre, baroque fantasy world. As inner tension builds, schizoid withdrawal becomes more and more likely. The end result is a kind of terrified fugue, completely cut off from reality. The only escape from the constant overwhelming chaos is inward.

["?"]

Taylor S, there are test which result in your variant stacking. They will give a more detailed description since with the enneagram and wing combined gives only 18 descriptions, the variant will produce 81 types. I am inclined as Maverick to consider the E-type and wing alone to be one-dimensional. I studied the enneagram years before becoming aware of MBTI and one reason that I went back to the enneagram was to determine my variants.

Some people have misunderstandings of the stackings, taking the language too literal, i.e. sexual has to do with sex, soical has to do with being a social person, etc. Here are some excerpts from Riso & Hudson's site:Self Preservation:

These people are quick to notice any problems in a room such as poor lighting or uncomfortable chairs, or to be dissatisfied with the room temperature. They often have issues connected with food and drink, either overdoing it or having strict dietary requirements. In the healthy to average Levels, of the three Instinctual types, they are the most practical in the sense of taking care of basic life necessities—paying bills, maintaining the home and workplace, acquiring useful skills, and so forth. When these types deteriorate, they tend to distort the instinct to the degree that they are poor at taking care of themselves. Unhealthy Self-Preservation types eat and sleep poorly or become obsessed with health issues. They often have difficulty handling money and may act out in deliberately self-destructive ways. In a nutshell, Self-Preservation types are focused on enhancing their personal security and physical comfort.

Social:

This subtype is focused on their interactions with other people and with the sense of value or esteem they derive from their participation in collective activities. These include work, family, hobbies, clubs—basically any arena in which Social types can interact with others for some shared purpose. Within that social instinct, however, are many other implicit imperatives, and primary among them is the understanding of "place" within a hierarchical social structure. Thus, the desire for attention, recognition, honor, success, fame, leadership, appreciation, and the safety of belonging can all be seen as manifestations of the Social instinct. Social types like to know what is going on around them, and want to make some kind of contribution to the human enterprise. There is often an interest in the events and activities of one's own culture, or sometimes, of another culture. In general, Social types enjoy interacting with people, but they avoid intimacy. In their imbalanced, unhealthy forms, these types can become profoundly antisocial, detesting people and resenting their society, or having poorly developed social skills. In a nutshell, Social types are focused on interacting with people in ways that will build their personal value, their sense of accomplishment, and their security of "place" with others.

Sexual:

Much has been said about this type preferring "one-on-one" relationships versus the Social type's preference for "larger groups," but a quick poll of one's acquaintances will reveal that almost all people prefer communicating one on one than in a group. The question is more one of the intensity of contact, and the strength of the desire for intimacy. In their neurotic forms, this type can manifest with a wandering lack of focus, sexual promiscuity and acting out, or just the opposite, in a fearful, dysfunctional attitude toward sex and intimacy. Sexual types, however, will be intense, even about their avoidances. In a nutshell, Sexual types are focused on having intense, intimate interactions and experiences with others and with the environment to give them a powerful sense of "aliveness."

[Ezra]

Since I generally score equally (within one point) and very low on 8 and 1, I have come out as 9 omni on occasion.

I tend not to trust the tests anymore for wings. Okay, it'll give you a general feel of your type, but I've been on multiple tests giving my result 8w7 and 8w9, even though I know I'm not omni. I know I'm 8w7. It's because I don't answer 'Yes' to questions like 'I crave adventure' that I score low on 7, and because I answer 'Yes' to questions like 'I am calm' that mean I score high on 9.

Some people have misunderstandings of the stackings, taking the language too literal, i.e. sexual has to do with sex, soical has to do with being a social person, etc.

But socials will understand, for example, group power dynamics or social cohesion. They will be focused on it in one way or another. Likewise, the sexual will have an aptitude for understanding and will be focused on the chemistry of relationships between individuals; and thus, for a sx-first 8, as sex is a very important of any loving relationship, it will undoubtedly be mentioned. For me, an sp-first 8, I like my security, but I also like to fend for myself. I know my needs; this is what I am adept it, and thus it is always conscious in my mind as to the remedies I need to fix a problem. Okay, maybe others have some level of skill in this, but it's a constant focus for me.

[nightning]

Somebody please type me. I typically swing between 2,4,5 :doh:

Test results:

1.
Type 1 Type 2 Type 3 Type 4 Type 5 Type 6 Type 7 Type 8 Type 9
-7 5 -1 5 3 -1 -2 -7 5


2.
Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||| 66%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||| 50%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||||||||||||||| 74%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||||||| 74%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||| 66%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||| 30%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||||| 42%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||| 34%

3.
Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||| 51%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||||||||| 72%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||||||||||| 55%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||||| 67%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||| 55%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||| 34%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||||| 47%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||| 31%

sp/so/sx

[Ezra]

There is a possibility, nightning, that you're a 4w5 who has disintegrated into Two.

I'd say from those results that you are ostensibly part of the Feeling (Heart) triad. You score consistently highly on all three tests, whereas the Thinking and Instinctive triads results are sporadic. I'd attribute this to the various tests' differing in quality (and perhaps even quantity of questions). I don't think you've taken this (http://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/) test (based on the style of your results, it looks as if you've taken two similarminds ones, and one I haven't seen before). Well, take it. It's one of the best free ones you can take.

I think there's quite a high possibility of your being a Four who identifies with Five, simply because 4w5 and 5w4 can look quite similar. But their motivations are very different. Now, as an INFJ, Two is not unlikely, but I think 2w1 is far more likely than 2w3, and as you score quite low on One, I'd be inclined to rule out Two. Nonetheless, take a look at the descriptions on this (http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/chwings.htm) page, preferably 2w1, 2w3, 4w5 and 5w4.

What I suggest you also do is sign up for this (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misid/#matrix) page (it takes about a minute, is free, and is well worth it), and spend some time looking at the Two, the Four and the Five, and how they fit or don't fit in with each other. See which one you identify with most.

Remember, tests are only so good, especially the free ones. What is more important is reading about the different types. Then everything will soon become much clearer.

[Athenian200]

There is a possibility, nightning, that you're a 4w5 who has disintegrated into Two.

Remember, tests are only so good, especially the free ones. What is more important is reading about the different types. Then everything will soon become much clearer.

I would agree with that, also... I identify with many of the things nightning says, and I'm pretty sure I'm a 4w5. I think that's the most common one for INFJ's.

Reading the descriptions for resonance is probably another key.

Very good, Ezra. :yes:

[ygolo]

I took one test, I got:


You are most likely a type 5.

Your wings seem to be balanced.



Type 5 - 11.7
Type 4 - 8.7
Type 6 - 8.3
Type 7 - 7
Type 9 - 6.7
Type 3 - 5.3

Wing 5w4 - 16
Wing 5w6 - 15.8
Wing 4w5 - 14.5
Wing 6w5 - 14.2
Wing 6w7 - 11.8
Wing 4w3 - 11.3
Wing 7w6 - 11.2
Wing 3w4 - 9.6
Wing 7w8 - 8
Wing 9w8 - 7.7
Wing 9w1 - 7.2
Wing 3w2 - 5.8


Then I took the other one:
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1177&d=1200374721

I am a little worried about going down the Enneagram Rabbit hole, based on my experience with Myers-Briggs.

I know Myers-Briggs is based on Jung's work. What is the Enneagram based on?

[Ezra]

The Enneagram is based on mystical Sufi tradition. It's ancient. It was used to some extent in the west by the Greek philosophers I think, but in its modern form, it was basically brought over from the east by Gurdjieff, then reformulated into an understandable concept by Ichazo and Naranjo, and it really took off when Riso & Hudson and Helen Palmer got their hands on it.

By those results 5w6 or 6w5 is evident; probably 5w6. Which motivations do you identify more with out of the 5 and the 6?

[Ezra]

I would agree with that, also... I identify with many of the things nightning says, and I'm pretty sure I'm a 4w5. I think that's the most common one for INFJ's.

It is very common to find an INFJ 4w5. I'd say you could find some 5w4s and Nines, and even some Ones, but 4w5 is the most common. No problems there ;).

[Athenian200]

It is very common to find an INFJ 4w5. I'd say you could find some 5w4s and Nines, and even some Ones, but 4w5 is the most common. No problems there ;).

Yeah. I've been wondering for a while if the 5 wing is often from the tertiary Ti. Ti dominants often seem to be 5's, so it seems to me that the 5 wing could come from that in many cases.

INFP's seem more likely to be 4's without a 5 wing if I'm not mistaken, although I have seen a few 4w5's in them, which stumps me in terms of patterns. :thinking:

[nightning]

There is a possibility, nightning, that you're a 4w5 who has disintegrated into Two.

I'd say from those results that you are ostensibly part of the Feeling (Heart) triad. You score consistently highly on all three tests, whereas the Thinking and Instinctive triads results are sporadic. I'd attribute this to the various tests' differing in quality (and perhaps even quantity of questions). I don't think you've taken this (http://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/) test (based on the style of your results, it looks as if you've taken two similarminds ones, and one I haven't seen before). Well, take it. It's one of the best free ones you can take.

I think there's quite a high possibility of your being a Four who identifies with Five, simply because 4w5 and 5w4 can look quite similar. But their motivations are very different. Now, as an INFJ, Two is not unlikely, but I think 2w1 is far more likely than 2w3, and as you score quite low on One, I'd be inclined to rule out Two. Nonetheless, take a look at the descriptions on this (http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/chwings.htm) page, preferably 2w1, 2w3, 4w5 and 5w4.

What I suggest you also do is sign up for this (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misid/#matrix) page (it takes about a minute, is free, and is well worth it), and spend some time looking at the Two, the Four and the Five, and how they fit or don't fit in with each other. See which one you identify with most.

Remember, tests are only so good, especially the free ones. What is more important is reading about the different types. Then everything will soon become much clearer.

I think I'm closer to 4 than a 2... Yet a few things fit from the 2w1 description fits well, like:
"Ethics come before pride. May hold themselves to high standards. More discreet and respectful of other people's boundaries."

I suppose 4w5 is a good enough fit... thank you. ^^

Results from your suggested test

Type 9 - 9.3
Type 4 - 9
Type 6 - 8.3
Type 3 - 7.7
Type 5 - 6.7
Type 2 - 6
Type 1 - 5.7
Type 8 - 1.3

Wing 4w3 - 12.8
Wing 4w5 - 12.3
Wing 3w4 - 12.2
Wing 9w1 - 12.2
Wing 6w5 - 11.7
Wing 5w4 - 11.2
Wing 5w6 - 10.9
Wing 3w2 - 10.7
Wing 1w9 - 10.4
Wing 9w8 - 10
Wing 2w3 - 9.8
Wing 6w7 - 9.3
Wing 2w1 - 8.8
Wing 1w2 - 8.7
Wing 8w9 - 6
Wing 8w7 - 2.3

[Ezra]

I think I'm closer to 4 than a 2... Yet a few things fit from the 2w1 description fits well, like:
"Ethics come before pride. May hold themselves to high standards. More discreet and respectful of other people's boundaries."

The trick here is to not get too stuck on details like this, especially when they're from free descriptions. And those lifexplore ones aren't that good anyway.

[INTJMom]

If you're genuinely confused about what Enneagram type you are, I will help you find it. It might take some time, but we will find it.Would you please help me?

I have taken several online tests and come out a little differently every time.
I don't feel like I completely relate to the descriptions.

Do you have a source for descriptions that you believe is the most accurate?
And do you have a good test that comes up with accurate results?

[Ezra]

Would you please help me?

I have taken several online tests and come out a little differently every time.
I don't feel like I completely relate to the descriptions.

Do you have a source for descriptions that you believe is the most accurate?
And do you have a good test that comes up with accurate results?

Right, the thing is, you will never find the ultimate infallible Enneagram test, and especially if you're looking for free tests only. The RHETI test costs $10, and you can get it here (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/Discover.asp). There are 144 questions (I know because my father bought a hard copy years ago, and I took it). That one is the test you're most likely looking for. If you're not willing to pay for an accurate result, the most effective free ones I've found are the Eclectic Energies (http://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test.php) ones (take both, and compare your results; they're different kinds of tests, so you shouldn't get too bored by them), and, despite what many say, the SimilarMinds (http://similarminds.com/advtest.html) one. I prefer the EE one, simply because it has more of a professional feel to it. A lot of people use ad hominem arguments such as "it was created by someone who thought Fives were superior to every type" to attack the SM one, but IME, it's still a good test. If you need any more help, give me a shout.

[INTJMom]

Ok. Actually, since I wrote this, I took 4 tests and came out 1, 4, 5, & 8.

Xander thinks I'm a One. I could be, but I think I'm a Five.

Thanks for the links.

[heart]

I come out type 5 consistantly but sometimes I am wing 4 and sometimes wing 6.

[INTJMom]

The results of the Classic EE test:

You are most likely a type 1.
Taking wings into account, you seem to be a 1w9

Wing 1w9 - 11.8
Wing 1w2 - 11
Wing 5w4 - 8.8
Wing 5w6 - 8.3
Wing 9w1 - 8.2

Type 1 - 10.3
Type 5 - 7.7
Type 3 - 5.3
Type 9 - 3
Type 2 - 1.3

[INTJMom]

The results of the Enneagram test with instinctual variant -

You are most likely a type 5 (the Investigator) with 4 wing

[Ezra]

INTJMom, I advise you to read this:


Misidentifying Ones and Fives

Ones and Fives both correspond to Jungian thinking types - the One to the extroverted thinking type (PT, 381-82) and the Five to the introverted thinking type, or to what we suggest might better be termed the "subjective" thinking type (PT, 177-78). The main difference between them can be discerned from the fact that they are in two different Triads: Ones are an instinctive type and Fives are a thinking type. While Ones certainly do think, they are primarily people of action, and are only interested in ideas that lead to some practical result. Fives, however, are truly a mental type: they can ponder any proposition or idea and do not particularly care about its practical ramifications.
Contrary to popular notions, opinions and beliefs have their basis in the instincts, in the gut. When we assert a position ("This is absolutely the way it is!") the certainty of our view comes from our gut. If we are present enough to notice, we can feel this when we express a strong opinion. And indeed, Ones are people of strong convictions and opinions as befitting a type in the Instinctive (or Gut) Triad. Average to unhealthy Ones are entirely convinced of the rightness of their views, and respect people who hold similar strength in their convictions. They think as a way of buttressing their already established beliefs. Average to unhealthy Fives tend to get lost in a maze of uncertainty. They may develop elaborate theories or positions only to overturn them soon after. While less healthy Fives may assert provocative views, they are more interested in disturbing the certainty of others than in convincing others that they have the correct view. Unhealthy Fives may want to feel smarter than the other person, and even argue points that they do not personally agree with just to prove to themselves that they can mentally "run circles" around others. As they become less healthy, Ones become more rigid and fixed in their views about things: Fives become more uncertain, nihilistic, and afraid that they cannot arrive at any kind of meaning or truth.
Similarly, they differ most markedly in the One's emphasis on certainty and judgment and the Five's relative lack of certainty and difficulty with discernment. (While healthy Ones have excellent judgment, average Ones are merely judgmental - still, making judgments about the world around them is one of the principal ways in which their extroverted thinking manifests itself.) Judgment is not as centrally important to Fives. They want to understand how the world works on a theoretical level or create inner worlds of imagination that are interesting and amusing to them. Thus, Fives tend to be detached from the practical world and intensely involved with complex mental constructs. And while healthy Fives observe and interact with the real world around them, average Fives, as they become more deeply enthralled by their own cerebral landscapes, lose their capacity to make accurate assessments about the truth, significance, or accuracy of their ideas. They gradually care less about an idea's objective rightness than about how their ideas relate to other thoughts that arise in their minds. By contrast, Ones employ thinking so that they can relate more perfectly to the world: their focus is on making rules and procedures for the progress and improvement of themselves and their world. Average Ones are not as detached from the world, or as withdrawn as average Fives are: although they may be cool and impersonal, and somewhat overly reserved, Ones are keenly interested in applying their principles to daily life.
Thus, Ones and Fives are opposites in the way they judge and evaluate reality. Ones judge situations from idealistic standards based on what they think should be the case. Fives are constantly investigating and questioning assumptions, not to mention standards and principles. Ones are deductive, operating from principles to specific applications; Fives are inductive, operating from given data to form more sweeping theories. Both are philosophical, and love knowledge: Ones as a means of perfecting the world, Fives as a way of discovering more about the world. Ones tend to be teachers and moralists, not inventors and iconoclasts like Fives. The difference between these types can be seen by comparing George Bernard Shaw (a One) and Isaac Newton (a Five), Margaret Thatcher (a One) and Susan Sontag (a Five).I don't think it's a case of your being a One, Four, Five or Eight. I think that because you score highly on One, you also score highly on Eight. They're similar kinds of people. I myself have often thought I might be a One as opposed to an Eight. But I realise my fundamental motivation. I score consistently highly on One, Three, Five and Eight. I explained the One-Eight link. The Three link comes with one's being a highly competent individual (One-related issue, with a bit of confidence from the Eight). The Five's link is with the Eight; the Five is the Eights stress point, and the Eight is the Five's security point.

Anyway, back to you. I think that if you're a Five, you're a 5w4. The high score on Eight might also be to do with the fact that you could be a healthy Five who has either integrated into Eight, or who is at least secure at Eight. Nonetheless, bear in mind my previous remarks about the differences between the Eight and the One.

Now, in my eyes, INTJ is compatible with three of your four results; One, Five and Eight. This makes it no easier for us. However, since you think you're more balanced on the T/F dichotomy, this could rule out Eight, since the chances of you finding an INFJ Eight are as rare as finding a needle in a haystack. If you understand the workings of the Eight (which I do because I am one) and of the INFJ (which I assume you do), you will see why they are incompatible. Both INTJ and INFJ are perfectly compatible with the One, and I'm sure you'd find an INFJ Five quite easily; especially one with a Four wing (INFJ is amongst the most common of types for the 4w5, and there is a lot in common between the 4w5 and the 5w4).

I come out type 5 consistantly but sometimes I am wing 4 and sometimes wing 6.

No problem there then. Your situation is similar to mine. I score consistently as both 8w9 and 8w7, sometimes even balanced.

[INTJMom]

Okay. One bite at a time...

"Ones and Fives both correspond to Jungian thinking types - the One to the extroverted thinking type (PT, 381-82) and the Five to the introverted thinking type, or to what we suggest might better be termed the "subjective" thinking type (PT, 177-78). The main difference between them can be discerned from the fact that they are in two different Triads: Ones are an instinctive type and Fives are a thinking type."

Since INTJs are NiTe, is this saying that INTJs are Ones?

[INTJMom]

This first part sounds more like me.

"While Ones certainly do think, they are primarily people of action, and are only interested in ideas that lead to some practical result. Fives, however, are truly a mental type: they can ponder any proposition or idea and do not particularly care about its practical ramifications."

[INTJMom]

I think I am more like the One described here also...

"making judgments about the world around them is one of the principal ways in which their extroverted thinking manifests itself.) Judgment is not as centrally important to Fives. They want to understand how the world works on a theoretical level"

The Fives sound like INTPs, to me.

[Evan]

my INTJ friend is one of the most blatant fives i've ever met.

just to put that out there.

[tovlo]

I'd like to play. ;)

I have had stretches in the past of typing 4, 9, and most recently 2 (the typing as a 2 is a recent phenomenon).

Here are my similar mind results (taken tonight):

Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||||||| 70%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||| 50%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||| 38%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||| 34%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||| 34%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||| 14%

sp/so/sx

And the Enneagram Institute results (taken tonight):

Type 4 - 7
Type 9 - 7
Type 1 - 5
Type 2 - 4
Type 5 - 4
Type 3 - 3
Type 6 - 3
Type 7 - 3
Type 8 - 0

I have most often considered myself a type 4 without an identifiable wing.

However, there are things about type 9 and type 2 that could be me as well. I do like the description of a type 4 and in a way actually feel slightly unworthy of it. :blush: I dislike the idea of being a type 2. I'm mostly indifferent to type 9.

Any thoughts?

[Athenian200]

I do like the description of a type 4 and in a way actually feel slightly unworthy of it. :blush: I dislike the idea of being a type 2. I'm mostly indifferent to type 9.

Any thoughts?

Yes, you're almost definitely a 4 if you feel that way. ;)

4's can disintegrate into 2's under stress, just so you know.

[Ezra]

INTJMom, it's not about dissecting it bit by bit; I can't do your maths for you. Sorry to dishearten you. Just get the gist of what applies to you most; One or Five, and you will have the answer as to your type. Also, try and get hold of The Wisdom of the Enneagram or indeed any meaty Enneagram book. Read the chapters on One and Five. I can assure you that one type will stand out more than the other after rigorous study (something INTJs are good at ;)) of each type, and of both types comparatively.

I'd like to play.

I have had stretches in the past of typing 4, 9, and most recently 2 (the typing as a 2 is a recent phenomenon).

Here are my similar mind results (taken tonight):

Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||||||| 70%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||| 50%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||| 38%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||| 34%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||| 34%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||| 14%

sp/so/sx

And the Enneagram Institute results (taken tonight):

Type 4 - 7
Type 9 - 7
Type 1 - 5
Type 2 - 4
Type 5 - 4
Type 3 - 3
Type 6 - 3
Type 7 - 3
Type 8 - 0

I have most often considered myself a type 4 without an identifiable wing.

However, there are things about type 9 and type 2 that could be me as well. I do like the description of a type 4 and in a way actually feel slightly unworthy of it. :blush: I dislike the idea of being a type 2. I'm mostly indifferent to type 9.

Any thoughts?

4w5, who identifies with both your security (One) and stress (Two) points. The reason you scored highly in Nine is to do with the external similarities between the two types. If you want to know more about that, visit here (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misid/#matrix).

[Eileen]

I believe that I'm a 4w5 (the descriptions of levels of health resonate a lot), but I've wondered whether I could be a 6 or a 2. What do you need to know?

[INTJMom]

INTJMom, it's not about dissecting it bit by bit; I can't do your maths for you. Sorry to dishearten you. Just get the gist of what applies to you most; One or Five, and you will have the answer as to your type. Also, try and get hold of The Wisdom of the Enneagram or indeed any meaty Enneagram book. Read the chapters on One and Five. I can assure you that one type will stand out more than the other after rigorous study (something INTJs are good at ;)) of each type, and of both types comparatively.
...One thing that I have found frustrating is the variance of Enne. descriptions online. Are there some resources that are more trustworthy and accurate than others?

While I may be a One, which is classified as the "perfectionist" in most places, perfectionism is something I have been fighting with most of my life. It tortures me. It paralyzes me. It leaves me groveling in the mud with the worms, so it's something I have been trying to let go of. Frankly, I wonder if there is any such thing as "healthy perfectionism" at all.

[Zybd03]

One thing that I have found frustrating is the variance of Enne. descriptions online. Are there some resources that are more trustworthy and accurate than others?

While I may be a One, which is classified as the "perfectionist" in most places, perfectionism is something I have been fighting with most of my life. It tortures me. It paralyzes me. It leaves me groveling in the mud with the worms, so it's something I have been trying to let go of. Frankly, I wonder if there is any such thing as "healthy perfectionism" at all.

I have read several Enneagram books and the one's I purchased are by Kathleen Hurley and Theodore Dobson. He later changed his name to Theodorre Donson.

The titles are: What's My Type, Discover Your Soul Potential, and My Best Self

I listed them in my order of preference. The best thing about What's My Type is it explains your type and then how to maximize your functioning as that type. I found these books more helpful than anything online.

The best test I've found is the Riso-Hudson test. They published a book which I borrowed from the library. The test is quite detailed. I had tested online as a Type 5, but the Riso-Hudson test listed me as a Type 9. When I read Hurley's description of the 9, it was me exactly. When my wife read the description, she totally agreed.

[INTJMom]

I have read several Enneagram books and the one's I purchased are by Kathleen Hurley and Theodore Dobson. He later changed his name to Theodorre Donson.

The titles are: What's My Type, Discover Your Soul Potential, and My Best Self

I listed them in my order of preference. The best thing about What's My Type is it explains your type and then how to maximize your functioning as that type. I found these books more helpful than anything online.

The best test I've found is the Riso-Hudson test. They published a book which I borrowed from the library. The test is quite detailed. I had tested online as a Type 5, but the Riso-Hudson test listed me as a Type 9. When I read Hurley's description of the 9, it was me exactly. When my wife read the description, she totally agreed.Thank you. I appreciate that. Unfortunately, What's My Type isn't at my local library, but it is at a library in a town I visit every now and then. I will make sure I get it.

I took a free sample test of the Riso-Hudson test online the other day.
It was 36 questions.
The results were One/Four

Type 1: The Reformer. The rational, idealistic type.
Type 4: The Artist. The intuitive, reserved type.

Exactly.

[tovlo]

Yes, you're almost definitely a 4 if you feel that way. ;)

4's can disintegrate into 2's under stress, just so you know.

As soon as I read this, I remembered having spoken with you about this in the past. I recall at that time I went and read the descriptions of 4 at various stages of disintegration. My resonance at the time with the unhealthy levels of 4 was alarming. I felt pretty certain then I was a type 4 under heavy stress.

4w5, who identifies with both your security (One) and stress (Two) points. The reason you scored highly in Nine is to do with the external similarities between the two types. If you want to know more about that, visit here.

I'm still likely under stress given my continued high 2 score, but thankfully I feel much less resonance with the unhealthy expression of type 4. I do recall in reading the levels of type 4 expression also recalling times in my life where I looked very much like healthy levels of type 4.

So I think you are both likely correct that I am type 4.

As for the questioning of type 9, the link you provided, Ezra, was enlightening. This section in particular:

Even so, the artistry of Fours is much more personal and self-revealing than that of Nines. The art of Nines often expresses idealized, mythological, and archetypal worlds - usually the real world glossed into something fantastic and wondrous. Nines are often gifted storytellers in which "...and they all lived happily ever after" is assured. (There are no unhappy endings in the Nine's world of make-believe.) By contrast, the art of Fours is generally more personal and realistic, the expression of the Four's (and of everyone's) deep longing for love, wholeness, and meaning. Fours often deal in the tragic, finding redemption in self-transcendence; Nines deal in the commonplace, finding comfort in ordinary lives and simple situations.

My resonance with the bolded sections was deafening.

[Ezra]

I believe that I'm a 4w5 (the descriptions of levels of health resonate a lot), but I've wondered whether I could be a 6 or a 2. What do you need to know?

I need to know why you think you could be a Six or a Two. What are your reasons for thinking that you may be one of these types?

One thing that I have found frustrating is the variance of Enne. descriptions online. Are there some resources that are more trustworthy and accurate than others?

IMO, yes. If the information is free, it should be treated with caution. If it costs, it should still be treated with caution, although I have my full faith in Palmer (http://www.enneagramworldwide.com/)'s and Riso & Hudson (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/)'s material. That is essentially the basis of the Enneagram as we know it. Many prefer either one or the other, but I think they both offer good interpretations of the same theory. However, credit must go to Oscar Ichazo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arica_School) and Claudio Naranjo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudio_Naranjo) for practically inventing the Enneagram of personality.

While I may be a One, which is classified as the "perfectionist" in most places, perfectionism is something I have been fighting with most of my life. It tortures me. It paralyzes me. It leaves me groveling in the mud with the worms, so it's something I have been trying to let go of. Frankly, I wonder if there is any such thing as "healthy perfectionism" at all.Can you go into more depth of how you perceive your perfectionism, or potential desire/need to be good or perfect?

I took a free sample test of the Riso-Hudson test online the other day.
It was 36 questions.
The results were One/Four

Type 1: The Reformer. The rational, idealistic type.
Type 4: The Artist. The intuitive, reserved type.

Exactly.

INTJMom, I don't know if I asked you to or if you did, but take the SimilarMinds test. It's quite reliable. The problem with the free 36-question RHETI test is that it simply isn't long enough to give you the accurate typing you're looking for. If you're serious, I definitely recommend either purchasing (or perhaps even borrowing if you're lucky) the 144 question RHETI test. There's no more accurate a way to determine your Enneagram type IMO, and I'd say many others would probably agree.

As for the questioning of type 9, the link you provided, Ezra, was enlightening. This section in particular:

My resonance with the bolded sections was deafening.

It's a good description is that. There was one point in my life where I didn't think I was a Four, but perhaps had Four in my trifix, and after reading this when I was helping someone determine their type, I recognised that the 'romantic' bits in me were actually much more identifiable in the Nine as opposed to the Four.

[INTJMom]

...
INTJMom, I don't know if I asked you to or if you did, but take the SimilarMinds test. It's quite reliable. The problem with the free 36-question RHETI test is that it simply isn't long enough to give you the accurate typing you're looking for. If you're serious, I definitely recommend either purchasing (or perhaps even borrowing if you're lucky) the 144 question RHETI test. There's no more accurate a way to determine your Enneagram type IMO, and I'd say many others would probably agree.
...I took one online that was 14 pages long. Now which one was that? One of the ones you sent me to, I believe.

[INTJMom]

The results of the Classic EE test:

You are most likely a type 1.
Taking wings into account, you seem to be a 1w9

Wing 1w9 - 11.8
Wing 1w2 - 11
Wing 5w4 - 8.8
Wing 5w6 - 8.3
Wing 9w1 - 8.2

Type 1 - 10.3
Type 5 - 7.7
Type 3 - 5.3
Type 9 - 3
Type 2 - 1.3This one was 14 pages and had over 100 questions I think.

[wedekit]

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||||| 78%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||| 26%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||||| 70%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||||||||||||||||| 82%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||| 70%
Type 7 Adventurousness || 10%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||| 14%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||| 34%

Type 1 - 5
Type 2 - 6
Type 3 - 7
Type 4 - 7
Type 5 - 3
Type 6 - -6
Type 7 - -14
Type 8 - -7
Type 9 - -1

I always get way different scores when I take the test. I wish they would make an enneagram test that just had either/or questions and not scaled questions. One time I scored as an 8 and most certainly am not one.

I always seem to score 4-ish and 1-ish. While I do have the whole 4-social shame thing going on, I don't have the sense of the dramatic "No one understands me!" "I want others to know that I am different than them!" and I don't walk around trying to impress people with lamentations. Sheesh. In fact I find those kind of people annoying. All the dramatic pain and melancholy I experience I keep to myself, but I wont deny that it is there.

I can see myself as a one because I do have a lot of integrity and desire to make a difference. Instead of going on and on, let me just bold the things that apply to me:
Ones:
* being self-disciplined and able to accomplish a great deal
* working hard to make the world a better place
* having high standards and ethics; not compromising myself
* being reasonable, responsible, and dedicated in everything I do
* being able to put facts together, coming to good understandings, and figuring out wise solutions
* being the best I can be and bringing out the best in other people

Fours:
* my ability to find meaning in life and to experience feeling at a deep level
* my ability to establish warm connections with people
* admiring what is noble, truthful, and beautiful in life
* my creativity, intuition, and sense of humor
* being unique and being seen as unique by others
* having aesthetic sensibilities
* being able to easily pick up the feelings of people around me

Now, HELP ME OUT so I can finally know what my enneagram type is for sure. I said 4w5 up until now just because most INFJs type as this, but that doesn't really mean anything.

[Evan]

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||| 55%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||||||||| 77%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||| 44%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||||||| 31%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||| 42%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||| 28%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||| 31%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||||||| 67%

problem is, i'm pretty damn sure i'm a one. there were a bunch of questions that i knew i was answering "wrong" for the type, but i think they were too specific or something.

are there more accurate tests? ones with better questions?

edit: it says i'm SO/SP/SX, which is completely backwards.

[Colors]

are there more accurate tests? ones with better questions?

Seconding this question.

[zarc]

I always seem to score 4-ish and 1-ish. While I do have the whole 4-social shame thing going on, I don't have the sense of the dramatic "No one understands me!" "I want others to know that I am different than them!" and I don't walk around trying to impress people with lamentations. Sheesh. In fact I find those kind of people annoying. All the dramatic pain and melancholy I experience I keep to myself, but I wont deny that it is there.

I can see myself as a one because I do have a lot of integrity and desire to make a difference.

Being a 4 doesn't mean you want to impress other people any less than a 5 or a 9 etc. Those are merely perpetuated stereotypes. "Oh woe is me, I am a 4" "I'm the most helpful cause I'm a 2". Does it mean it's not true? To a certain extent. It's in understanding the underlying root/cause and how they express it, why and when (and maybe even for 'whom'?). How do you want to impress people? Do you want to show you're the most helpful or the most peaceful or the most intelligent or the most ambitious or the most sensitive? Even then, does it mean you don't want to or can't do the rest?

If you're actively trying to impress people, whether lamenting or exhibiting how 'oh so happy you are', are you in a healthy frame of mind? If you were, you knew you'd be impressing people naturally because you'd be the shizznit and you can know it too without shame. You just don't feel the need to prove it~

I'm a 4w5. I mainly channel my pains and frustrations, even happiness, into writing poetry. A lot. I hold onto bad feelings and like to explore them but I keep them to myself when I'm unhappy. I sometimes show that I'm hurt by being withdrawn, deliberately or not. It's not even that I'd want to show it (off) but it's just something I do and is perceived as such.

Does a 5 have any less integrity than a 1 or a push to help others? Any less desire to help people? I'd say, again, it's all in how they channel it and how they want to express it and what's most comfortable to them. That isn't to say that any one type will own whatever way exclusively, however.

I'm trying to help you out, right? As a sterotypical 4, that's a no-no. WE are the most unique, we can't help someone be unique too! On the whole though, that's somewhat true. But that's a 4 in an unhealthy state of mind, that's just one way they express their frustrations. As a healthy 4, you'd want to share your experiences and foster it in others, help others find their uniqueness, being sensitive towards others and not just enviously sensitive towards themselves. That isn't to say I'm completely healthy cause if you read a little further down on how 4's Disintegrate, I think I've overdone this response lmfao.

There's an excellent and comprehensive 400 page book called The Wisdom of The Enneagram: The Complete Guide To Psychological And Spiritual Growth For The Nine Personality Types. (http://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Enneagram-Psychological-Spiritual-Personality/dp/0553378201) I'd recommend it and I've seen the price has gone down, so lucky if you do~ (bought mine at $30CAN and have no regrets). It explains Enneagram history to what your childhood history might've been as your Type, and....

Here's a link that has pages 9 to 18 of Chapter 1 (legal or not, catch it before it's gone~). Identifying Your Personality Type: (http://www.enotalone.com/article/4896.html)The person wrote a little intro of it before the true section of the book begins. Chapter 1 begins from THE ENNEAGRAM (pronounced "ANY-a-gram") is a...

The book explains thoroughly and even simply. I'll give a few comparisons that wasn't mentioned on that page on 1's and 4's as for The Basic Fears of The Types:

1 = Fear of being bad, corrupt, evil, or defective.
4 = Fear of being without identity or personal significance.

1 = Basic Desire:To be good, virtuous, in balance- to have integrity
1 = Superego Message: "You are good or okay if you do what is right."
"I have a mission in life."

4 = Basic Desire: To find themselves and their significance, to create an identity out of their inner experienecs.
4 = Superego Message: "You are good or okay if you are true to yourself."

Here's the breakdown when those Basic Fears distort:

1 = The desire to have integrity (deteriorates into critical perfectionism)
4 = The desire to be oneself (deteriorates into self-indulgence)

And we 'morph' into another type when average (beginning to stablize) or unhealthy, thus causing confusion as to how someone might be seen. You get a picture from the geometric map of the Enneagram as to how one type goes in extreme to another when being healthy vs unhealthy. Here's another example of extreme unhealthy. The Direction of Disintegration (with Reversal):
1 = Methodical Ones suddenly become moody and irrational at Four.
4 = Aloof Fours suddenly become overinvolved and clinging at Two.

Here's then how we average out when we're a little healthier before stablising. The Direction of Integration:
1 = Angry, critical Ones become more spontaneous and joyful, like healthy Sevens.
4 = Envious, emotionally turbulent Fours become objective and principled, like healthy Ones.

Mind you, those are basic explainations from the book and they expound on them a hell of a lot further. lol I can't praise this book enough.~ Can you tell? lol

If 4w5 doesn't mean anything to you just yet, don't label yourself that way. Wait until it either does make perfect sense as the rightful you :yes: or until another equally wonderful type comes along and dissects you like no other :yay: It seems silly to choose one now because INFJs are __ lol I know we INFJs like to take instruction from others and our own type, but come on, you take away from your experience when you cop out ;) !You'd still be an INFJ if you're a 6 until it's proven otherwise, so no worries for now~

If you want I don't mind sending a bit more info on both types. I suggest doing the Quick Sorting Test at the bottom of the second link I gave first. It should narrow it down for you. Unless from all this you've finally concluded your first task :shock:

However narrowed, before each individual chappie on each Type they have a test. Each Type chapter is roughly 30 pages. But really... GET THE BOOK! hehe :D No more crappy online tests! Rejoice!

Edit: One last selfish plug. As a 4, I'm more invested in firstly knowing myself, exploring myself and then using that self-knowledge and experience into helping others, however that may be. I don't too much about 1s but from the little I've read I've surmised they might use the social norms to crusade their causes and I read that they try to control external order. I think as a 4, wanting 'uniqueness' etc, we'd go against the norms in order to show our differences (that it's also not a bad thing.).

Hope I was helpful :cry:

[Ezra]

I took one online that was 14 pages long. Now which one was that? One of the ones you sent me to, I believe.

That'll be the Eclectic Energies one.

INTJMom, I take back what I said earlier. I don't think the SimilarMinds one is all that reliable for people like you who have a problem with deciding between two types. I think you'll end up scoring horribly similar scores on One and Five.

Really, though, did the Enneagram Institute misidentifications page not help you?

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||||| 78%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||| 26%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||||| 70%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||||||||||||||||| 82%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||| 70%
Type 7 Adventurousness || 10%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||| 14%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||| 34%

Type 1 - 5
Type 2 - 6
Type 3 - 7
Type 4 - 7
Type 5 - 3
Type 6 - -6
Type 7 - -14
Type 8 - -7
Type 9 - -1

I always get way different scores when I take the test. I wish they would make an enneagram test that just had either/or questions and not scaled questions. One time I scored as an 8 and most certainly am not one.

I always seem to score 4-ish and 1-ish. While I do have the whole 4-social shame thing going on, I don't have the sense of the dramatic "No one understands me!" "I want others to know that I am different than them!" and I don't walk around trying to impress people with lamentations. Sheesh. In fact I find those kind of people annoying. All the dramatic pain and melancholy I experience I keep to myself, but I wont deny that it is there.

I can see myself as a one because I do have a lot of integrity and desire to make a difference. Instead of going on and on, let me just bold the things that apply to me:
Ones:
* being self-disciplined and able to accomplish a great deal
* working hard to make the world a better place
* having high standards and ethics; not compromising myself
* being reasonable, responsible, and dedicated in everything I do
* being able to put facts together, coming to good understandings, and figuring out wise solutions
* being the best I can be and bringing out the best in other people

Fours:
* my ability to find meaning in life and to experience feeling at a deep level
* my ability to establish warm connections with people
* admiring what is noble, truthful, and beautiful in life
* my creativity, intuition, and sense of humor
* being unique and being seen as unique by others
* having aesthetic sensibilities
* being able to easily pick up the feelings of people around me

Now, HELP ME OUT so I can finally know what my enneagram type is for sure. I said 4w5 up until now just because most INFJs type as this, but that doesn't really mean anything.

Based on this, there are three possibilities in my eyes. Firstly, that you are a 1w2, confusing traits of your Two wing with Four traits. Secondly, that you are a One at Four, your stress point. Thirdly, that you are a Four who has integrated into or who is at least secure at One. Possibilities one and two aren't mutually exclusive, however. You could be a One (even with a Nine wing), who has disintegrated into Four.

What do you think is more likely?

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||| 55%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||||||||| 77%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||| 44%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||||||| 31%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||| 58%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||| 42%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||| 28%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||| 31%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||||||| 67%

problem is, i'm pretty damn sure i'm a one. there were a bunch of questions that i knew i was answering "wrong" for the type, but i think they were too specific or something.

are there more accurate tests? ones with better questions?

edit: it says i'm SO/SP/SX, which is completely backwards.

I posted an Electic Energies one earlier which is better IM, and many others', HO. Try that. And FWIW, the variant part is ridiculous. Don't trust it.

There's an excellent and comprehensive 400 page book called The Wisdom of The Enneagram: The Complete Guide To Psychological And Spiritual Growth For The Nine Personality Types. (http://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Enneagram-Psychological-Spiritual-Personality/dp/0553378201) I'd recommend it and I've seen the price has gone down, so lucky if you do~ (bought mine at $30CAN and have no regrets). It explains Enneagram history to what your childhood history might've been as your Type, and....

I've recommended it, DD's recommended it, so get out and buy it. It is the definitive resource for seriously determining your type to end all possible determinations.

[INTJMom]

...
Really, though, did the Enneagram Institute misidentifications page not help you?
...I don't remember.
I'll have to go check.
My problem is I'm too N to understand where they're coming from when they ask me the questions. It all depends on what they mean, and compared to what. I will have to get a book and study it for myself because the online sources don't even agree with each other, or present a quantitative synthesized view that I can glean from.

[zarc]

I will have to get a book and study it for myself because the online sources don't even agree with each other, or present a quantitative synthesized view that I can glean from.

Don't just get any ol'book, my dear lady. Ezra and I happily recommend The Wisdom of The Enneagram. Here's a link Identifying Your Personality Type (http://www.enotalone.com/article/4896.html) to peek at Chapter 1 pgs 9 to 18. Skim down to INTRODUCING THE NINE TYPES and read on from there but the descriptions of the Types are basic.

The rest of the book is a hell of a lot more thorough and accurate IMHO.

[INTJMom]

...
The book explains thoroughly and even simply. I'll give a few comparisons that wasn't mentioned on that page on 1's and 4's as for The Basic Fears of The Types:

1 = Fear of being bad, corrupt, evil, or defective.
4 = Fear of being without identity or personal significance.
...Here's my problem.
I highly identify with #4.
But why?

A few years ago, in a book called Facing Shame (http://www.amazon.com/Facing-Shame-Families-Merle-Fossum/dp/0393305813), I learned that the reason I had an unbridled NEED TO BE IMPORTANT was because of the shame-based home I grew up in.

This need has defined me for most of my life. Is it "me" or not?

[INTJMom]

Don't just get any ol'book, my dear lady. Ezra and I happily recommend The Wisdom of The Enneagram. Here's a link Identifying Your Personality Type (http://www.enotalone.com/article/4896.html) to peek at Chapter 1 pgs 9 to 18. Skim down to INTRODUCING THE NINE TYPES and read on from there but the descriptions of the Types are basic.

The rest of the book is a hell of a lot more thorough and accurate IMHO.Here we go again. :rolli:

I took the quick little quiz on that page. I came out 4/5
And then reading the descriptions, I identified with 4-5-8-1 in that order -
if I look at how I have been for most of my life, not only how I am right now.
Perhaps I should just be looking at how I am now, it would maybe be easier since I was so emotionally maladjusted for so much of my life.

I used to be an 8 when I was young, but I have lost the wind from my sails and I will never be that way again. I have had moments of 8-ness.

I think 1 is who I want to be.

If there was such a thing as a bold and audacious 4, that would be me.

I am not quite a 5 because I disdain complex things.

That's clear as mud, isn't it?!

[zarc]

Here's my problem.
I highly identify with #4.
But why?

A few years ago, in a book called Facing Shame (http://www.amazon.com/Facing-Shame-Families-Merle-Fossum/dp/0393305813), I learned that the reason I had an unbridled NEED TO BE IMPORTANT was because of the shame-based home I grew up in.

This need has defined me for most of my life. Is it "me" or not?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that, as we all lead different lives and had different experience a certain about of circumstance is involved. An 8 who is naturally ambitious by nature and is denied to express it, might supress and fears their identity or being without it.

However, those are only the very basic fears and it's put to great detail in the book. If you were treated like wall paper and no one cared for you or the idenity you had was rejected (as a child/adult w/e), it might shame you, yes. A 1 might think without their idenity they are corrupt or that due to their identity they are corrupt and a 4 might think without their identity they are no longer unique or significant. The difference is how they view identity and what it means to them. How would you express it or think you might express it if rejected? I wrote a little bit of that down in my reply to wedekit.

I couldn't explain in greater detail 'why' you feel this way. I could say from my own experience (as a 4w5) that I've realised I craft my identity when I've been depressed. "I'm gonna look mean and be quiet and people will recognise it and dare not approach!" I think, I may be mistaken, that 4s take pride in it, that they are different, whether they are humble about it or not (not all pride is bad). Does this resonate with you? Did you read the other comparisons of 1 and 4 and did 4 make sense to you as you (even if you still don't know why it does)?

[zarc]

Here we go again. :rolli:

I took the quick little quiz on that page. I came out 4/5
And then reading the descriptions, I identified with 4-5-8-1 in that order -
if I look at how I have been for most of my life, not only how I am right now.
Perhaps I should just be looking at how I am now, it would maybe be easier since I was so emotionally maladjusted for so much of my life.

I used to be an 8 when I was young, but I have lost the wind from my sails and I will never be that way again.

I think 1 is who I want to be.

If there was such a thing as a bold and audacious 4, that would be me.

I am not quite a 5 because I disdain complex things.

That's clear as mud, isn't it?!

Eep, you replied before me lol. But again, the book better explains it all. And those were just little examples. They by no means display the full spectrum of how the Types are, at all.

In the book, it even showcases how you might've reacted as a child, though I somewhat wonder if it's a good thing to do as I don't recall that they give happy childhood accounts. However, they do give the underlying cause for why a Type 6 child might react this way or a Type 9 child etc

[INTJMom]

...when I've been depressed. "I'm gonna look mean and be quiet and people will recognise it and dare not approach!" ...Does this resonate with you? ...Been there, done that, got the trophy.

[INTJMom]

...
In the book, it even showcases how you might've reacted as a child, though I somewhat wonder if it's a good thing to do as I don't recall that they give happy childhood accounts. ...Since my childhood was mostly miserable, then I am sure I will find myself in its pages.

[zarc]

I took the quick little quiz on that page. I came out 4/5
And then reading the descriptions, I identified with 4-5-8-1 in that order -
if I look at how I have been for most of my life, not only how I am right now.
Perhaps I should just be looking at how I am now, it would maybe be easier since I was so emotionally maladjusted for so much of my life.


I forgot to mention. Even in the book it explains that we all go through various modes of being. A 4 who is oh so sensitive and introspective is capable of being highly intelligent and alert (like a 5), can be self-confident and assertive (like an 8), can be idealistic and conscientious (like a 1). It's a good thing to not just remember how you were in the past by what motivated you to turn that way you did? If you can remember @@, I barely recall what I ate this morning.

And because you were emotionally turblent, it might be harder to pin-point (or not) as you may not have had the awareness at the time or it might be hard for you to recall with accuracy certain experiences. Emotions may feel clear-cut in the present but are cloudy (at least for me~) in the past. I know it's hard for me to recall traumatic experiences in vivid detail or why I reacted a certain way, somewhat. But there was an overall theme as my situation (however bad) didn't change that much. Might be a different case for you.

[zarc]

Since my childhood was mostly miserable, then I am sure I will find myself in its pages.

:sad: So was mine, and yes, I did.

[INTJMom]

I forgot to mention. Even in the book it explains that we all go through various modes of being. A 4 who is oh so sensitive and introspective is capable of being highly intelligent and alert (like a 5), can be self-confident and assertive (like an 8), can be idealistic and conscientious (like a 1). It's a good thing to not just remember how you were in the past by what motivated you to turn that way you did? If you can remember @@, I barely recall what I ate this morning.

And because you were emotionally turbulent, it might be harder to pin-point (or not) as you may not have had the awareness at the time or it might be hard for you to recall with accuracy certain experiences. Emotions may feel clear-cut in the present but are cloudy (at least for me~) in the past. I know it's hard for me to recall traumatic experiences in vivid detail or why I reacted a certain way, somewhat. But there was an overall theme as my situation (however bad) didn't change that much. Might be a different case for you.I guess this is where I can be thankful I am a T since I spent a lot of time analyzing myself when I was young and trying to understand why I behaved the way I did. Instead of drowning in the subjectiveness of it all, I think I was very objective about it all - as objective as someone in pain can be.

I do wonder though... which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Did I need to be important because I was treated like a nobody,
or was being treated like a nobody the stimulus that brought forth my particular motivation
which happened to be the need to be important?

[zarc]

I guess this is where I can be thankful I am a T since I spent a lot of time analyzing myself when I was young and trying to understand why I behaved the way I did. Instead of drowning in the subjectiveness of it all, I think I was very objective about it all - as objective as someone in pain can be.

I do wonder though... which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Did I need to be important because I was treated like a nobody,
or was being treated like a nobody the stimulus that brought forth my particular motivation
which happened to be the need to be important?

I do not believe being an F or T is valid. The full force of your being an INTJ can give you a better depiction as to how you might've acted, but what does "T" mean? Unless you mean Te. Even still. We can all analyze our situation, just how do we do it? How did we perceive it, objective or not.

I was able to rationalise my parents behaviour because I understood they were raised a certain way. I could analyze their actions and from them recognise patterns, thus avoiding when I wanted to and confronting when I wanted to, safe or not. My being treated a certain way as a child made me want to help others and when others were treated horribly I wanted to help or defend them. It was harder doing this for myself or following my own advice as I couldn't know what was best for myself. It's easier, for me IMO, to observe others and help them.

My little sister is an INTJ. While she was not abused at all, her method when angry or dealing with our parents is mostly to just dismiss them. Or rage when provoked, however rare. In fact, what helped me to reason was a particular episode where I saw her get beaten for something (her first time at age 3, I was 10). That's what helped me to get help and the abuse mostly subsided, never directed towards her ever again (and for the most of my life afterwards, too).

Did I need to be important because I was treated like a nobody,
or was being treated like a nobody the stimulus that brought forth my particular motivation
which happened to be the need to be important?

Whoa. Maybe it's cause I stayed up last night..but I can't wrap my head around that O_O. Chicken or egg thing, you decide, not me, I can't think :shock:

[Evan]

I guess this is where I can be thankful I am a T since I spent a lot of time analyzing myself when I was young and trying to understand why I behaved the way I did. Instead of drowning in the subjectiveness of it all, I think I was very objective about it all - as objective as someone in pain can be.

ditto, and i'm an F. Fe isn't subjective...

the analysis thing we have in common is Ni anyways.

[INTJMom]

...
And because you were emotionally turblent, it might be harder to pin-point (or not) as you may not have had the awareness at the time or it might be hard for you to recall with accuracy certain experiences. Emotions may feel clear-cut in the present but are cloudy (at least for me~) in the past. I know it's hard for me to recall traumatic experiences in vivid detail or why I reacted a certain way, somewhat. But there was an overall theme as my situation (however bad) didn't change that much. Might be a different case for you.Sorry. I was only responding to this. You were right. I am not going to have the trouble you had. I don't have much or any trouble with recall.

[Evan]

You are most likely a type 2.

Taking wings into account, you seem to be a 1w2 or 2w1.

Type 2 - 10
Type 1 - 9.7
Type 3 - 6.7
Type 9 - 6.3
Type 4 - 5.7

Wing 2w1 - 14.8
Wing 1w2 - 14.7
Wing 2w3 - 13.3
Wing 1w9 - 12.8
Wing 3w2 - 11.7
Wing 9w1 - 11.1
Wing 3w4 - 9.6
Wing 4w3 - 9.1
Wing 9w8 - 7.3
Wing 4w5 - 6.7

this one seems more accurate. (although i'm 95% sure i'm 1w2 and not 2w1)

[zarc]

Sorry. I was only responding to this. You were right. I am not going to have the trouble you had. I don't have much or any trouble with recall.

S'ok. I will say, I can recall specific occurances, but when I say some were cloudy that was somewhat due to blackouts during childhood, as were general 'bad' memories I still remember and some good ones too, in which some memories have returned 'spontaneously' as a teen and triggered a whole slew of memories I'd forgotten (kinda cool, if I disregard what actually happend lol). I had a head injury when I was 15 and although the incidient is still vivid in my mind, I don't really remember what happened before or after it. Then again, I may remember it ten years from now o.o''

I should've said memories were cloudly, not emotions. Silly me.

[wedekit]

What do you think is more likely?

I know I'm not a 1w2. I think I might be the third option: a 4 integrated at 1.


If 4w5 doesn't mean anything to you just yet, don't label yourself that way. Wait until it either does make perfect sense as the rightful you :yes: or until another equally wonderful type comes along and dissects you like no other :yay: It seems silly to choose one now because INFJs are __ lol I know we INFJs like to take instruction from others and our own type, but come on, you take away from your experience when you cop out ;) !You'd still be an INFJ if you're a 6 until it's proven otherwise, so no worries for now~

If you want I don't mind sending a bit more info on both types. I suggest doing the Quick Sorting Test at the bottom of the second link I gave first. It should narrow it down for you. Unless from all this you've finally concluded your first task :shock:

However narrowed, before each individual chappie on each Type they have a test. Each Type chapter is roughly 30 pages. But really... GET THE BOOK! hehe :D No more crappy online tests! Rejoice!

Edit: One last selfish plug. As a 4, I'm more invested in firstly knowing myself, exploring myself and then using that self-knowledge and experience into helping others, however that may be. I don't too much about 1s but from the little I've read I've surmised they might use the social norms to crusade their causes and I read that they try to control external order. I think as a 4, wanting 'uniqueness' etc, we'd go against the norms in order to show our differences (that it's also not a bad thing.).

Hope I was helpful :cry:

Awesome!!! Thanks for the insight. I have seen that book in the bookstore I go to as well as other Enneagram books. I wasn't sure which one to get (they all seem to be by the same author) so I just didn't get any of them . Do you recommend that one as the better? I ask this because I bought Type Talk and Please Understand Me II, and in the end I got all the same information but in better depth by buying Personality Type: An Owner's Manual. I didn't want to waste money buying mediocre books, lol.

So if I am understanding right, a healthy 4 can extend out to inherit some 1 characteristics? I would say that I try to impress people more by trying to show them that I am unique, but I do like to show my integrity as well, but not to as much of an extent.

I took the test on the webpage you linked to and I typed as a 4. I actually prefer that test over others I have taken. It was nice, brief, and informative about the other types.

I use a software called Character Pro 5 that helps you create fictional characters by using the enneagram, which helps me create realistic, consistent characters for fiction. I guess writing as a creative outlet is a very 4-like attribute? I'm sure if I'm a 4 I would be a 5-wing, because the 4w3 description sounds nothing like me.

Here's the 4w5 descriptions from Character Pro 5(excluding story related field, like story arc suggestions, etc.):

Basic Profile:
Wedekit is the introverted artistic type. He looks inside the heart for the answers, creating outer expressions of that self and deciding on who he is by what comes out. This subtype is introverted and really considers what he thinks as the real qualifier. He is in this to discover himself and not to make money or find fame. Wedekit can be reclusive and painfully shy. However, he has successfully found within himself a universal thing, something that comes out through the artwork, that is, his expression of self. This universality draws people to him. He reacts with warmth and humor, enjoying the feeling of being unique. Creative, passionate, empathetic.

Childhood:
Wedekit never identified with either parent. His parents seemed to be from another planet, so he was left alone to discover his own personality. This self-discovery became his life mission and his only option was to look inside to see what he could find. As a child, he tried to fit in by compromising his authentic self because he didn't feel safe. He always regretted this. As an adult, he is introspective, even to the point of losing himself in thought, becoming reclusive at times, staying away from distracting people, noise and activity.

Dialogue Style:
Wedekit can be very shy and discovering his feelings and opinions about things can be next to impossible. Eventually, once a safe place has been established, amazing insights and perceptions come out of this person. He can be self-revealing and emotionally honest. He has visited a pretty incredible place, the soul of a person. He has an understanding like no one else and can be very perceptive about others. Sometimes seeming psychic.

Dialogue Examples:
External Dialogue: "He's like that because he's lonely." "I don't feel like going out tonight." "I always trust my gut."
Internal Dialogue: "I'm unique. I feel good when I'm different."

[zarc]

Awesome!!! Thanks for the insight.

You're most welcome~


Do you recommend that one as the better? I ask this because I bought Type Talk and Please Understand Me II, and in the end I got all the same information but in better depth by buying Personality Type: An Owner's Manual. I didn't want to waste money buying mediocre books, lol.

It's my Enneagram Holy Text, if you will. I believe Ezra has been pimping it from the start. I concur, I pimp it out too. I can't compare to other books, however, as it was the one and only book I bought and it was more than insightful for me. I did peer through it before purchasing. It's truly an indepth monster. It'll eat you out :shock: Amazon should have an excerpt or something, but the "Search inside Book" thingie on the side won't work for me anymore for any book -.-'' Try it if you can. I suspect though it won't be different from the page I put before. *shrugs* Buy the book~~... #___#''

So if I am understanding right, a healthy 4 can extend out to inherit some 1 characteristics? I would say that I try to impress people more by trying to show them that I am unique, but I do like to show my integrity as well, but not to as much of an extent.

Not exactly so. It's not that you inherit traits, it's that you exhibit them, I'd say. I'm relating a chunk from the book on Direction of Disintegration. When a 4 shifts---> 2 "it manifests when we are in a period of increased stress or uncertainty. When we have pushed the strategy of our own type as far as it can go (....), and it is not improving our situation or getting what we want, we will unconsciously start to behave like the type in our Direction of Disintegration. ....this is called acting out .....tend to be unconscious and compulsive, although they are not necessarily immediately destructive......." And a lot more on that, but I'm sure you'll be saying "that's me!" Well, there's more of you in the book, so go get it! lol

I'll add to that, for myself, when I disintegrate it happens after a period of withdrawal. I want to connect to people again and maybe I come off too strong with the "I wanna help you!" (btw, just came off a withdrawal so I'm probably doing it right now lmao :blush: At least I can recognise it for what it is :party2: ). I think it's because we might not now how to relate after being so couped up inside or we feel as though we were so selfish/indulgent and try to rectify it. Does this seem similiar for you?

Speaking from experience, I loved being called different and weird in a cool-freaky way and special. I also thought highly of being 'myself and no one else' and of integrity too. I smote bullies as a kid whenever I had the chance and then turned them into my friends ^_^''

I took the test on the webpage you linked to and I typed as a 4. I actually prefer that test over others I have taken. It was nice, brief, and informative about the other types.

They have another 15 question test beginning with each Type. Just as short, sweet.

I use a software called Character Pro 5 that helps you create fictional characters by using the enneagram, which helps me create realistic, consistent characters for fiction. I guess writing as a creative outlet is a very 4-like attribute?

I don't know how 4-like that is but I want it :happy2: Although, I prefer to discover people or create people on my own, the tool seems a nice help.

I'm sure if I'm a 4 I would be a 5-wing, because the 4w3 description sounds nothing like me.
As from the Holy Text, though it's not all of it:

4w3: The Aristrocrat when Healthy will combine creativity and ambition, the desire for self-improvement and an eye toward achieving goals, often involving personal advancement. More social than the people of the other subtype and want to be both succesfull and distinctive.

4w5: The Bohemian when Healthy tends to be extremely creativite, combining emotionality and introspection with perceptivenesss and originality. Less concerned with acceptance and status [[less does not equate zero lol]]. Highly personal and idiosyncratic in their self-expression, creating more for themselves than for an audience.

Then they have the Average states for both Subtypes. I won't even touch The Instinctual Variants but titled they are: The Self-Perservation Instinct, The Social Instinct and The Sexual Instinct (and no, it's not like that or we'd all want it~~)

I believe you will say 4w5: The Bohemian!! MUAHAHAHA!

[zarc]

So if I am understanding right, a healthy 4 can extend out to inherit some 1 characteristics?

Craaap. I thought you wrote from 4 to 1. :doh: Okie, but same thing applies, we exhibit, not inherit. So on the path to Integration, healthy 4 goes ---> 1. They "engage with reality through meaningful action...committing themselves to principles and activities beyond the realm of their subjective reacions..........They willingly become self-disciplined, working consistently to contribute something worthwhile to their world. No longer aloof bystanders waiting to be recognized, they participate fully in life and develop a stronger sense of themselves through their work and connections with others.

*breath*

Silly silly DD for mucking that up.

[Carebear]

Hm... I was going to ask what type I was, but the two tests from eclecticenergies.com gave me clearer answers than I've gotten before. Previously it's varied between 9 and 5, and I could see how 9 fit best, but I sometime engage in 5-like behaviour when engaged in an intellectual pursuit. These tests however, gave me:
*****************************
Type 9 - 13.3
Type 2 - 11.7
Type 7 - 9.7
Type 4 - 9.7
Type 5 - 9
Type 8 - 5
Type 1 - 2.7

Wing 9w8 - 15.8
Wing 9w1 - 14.7
Wing 4w5 - 14.2
Wing 2w3 - 14
Wing 5w4 - 13.8
Wing 2w1 - 13
Wing 7w8 - 12.2
Wing 4w3 - 12
Wing 8w9 - 11.7
Wing 7w6 - 10.5
Wing 8w7 - 9.8
Wing 5w6 - 9.8
Wing 1w9 - 9.4
Wing 1w2 - 8.6
***********************************
And:
You are most likely a type 9 (the Peacemaker) with 8 wing

Sexual variant


Type 9 SX (this bar was 2x the length of the one under)
Type 7 SP (and from there they)
Type 2 SO (rapidly became a)
Type 6 SO (lot smaller, until)
Type 3 SO (they)
Type 4 SO (
Type 8 SO
Type 5 SO
Type 1 SX

disappeared.
****************************

So it seems that settles it. I'm E9. Have to look at the 9w8 descriptions now to see if they fit.

Edit: Hm... the wing descriptions seem to contradict much of what the pure 9 description says. I seem to fit some from both 9w1 and 9w8, but much of it doesn't fit. Most in the pure 9 description fits, though. I guess I don't have to stick wings on myself if they don't fit. I'm E9 at least.

[wedekit]

How about this, Carebear? It's a description of 9w8 from Character Pro 5. (This assumes you are in a healthy mindset; if not I can give you the summaries for average or unhealthy).

Carebear can see all sides of any argument. Intelligent, perceptive and peace-loving, he hates conflict and will try to solve the problem or get away from it - not likely to get emotionally involved in the conflict, staying objective. He makes the perfect diplomat for that reason, offering a truly unbiased point of view. This is primarily because he, more than any other type, can see the big picture. Little things that other characters argue about don't matter to him. He can offer compromises or put it in perspective to create the peace he loves. This subtype is more likely to take a leadership role, to bring two sides into an understanding. Carebear inspires others with a kind of calm confidence. However, if the situation is particularly difficult, he is likely to gloss over important issues to try to get back to a peaceful world. This retraction into the self, this centering, can have a positive effect, making him capable of level-headedness and control in the face of extreme chaos - the only member of a team that remains calm under fire.

Carebear is the product of a healthy and happy childhood, growing up in a household with virtually no conflict. As a result, he connected and identified with both his care-giving figure and his protective figure, seeing himself as an active and accepted member of the family. He was able to synthesize each of the attitudes and personalities of the parental figures into one whole. As an adult, Carebear has always been calm and objective, able to meld into any situation. He is more physically involved with the world and has made a very diverse set of friends. However, there is still an unattached quality, which means he doesn't always hold onto friends.

Carebear has a calming effect on any situation. Willing to step into a conflict just about anywhere to see what he can do. Likely to say things like, "You both want the same thing." "Let's all get along." Carebear will be friendly to absolutely anyone. If that person's a problem, he's likely get involved to find out what's causing this conflict, unlike the other subtype who's likely to back off and dismiss it. However, in his weaker moments, he may tune out when others bring up tough issues.

Carebear can be reassuring and very accepting in a relationship. Other characters feel appreciated and loved as is and feel calm around his peacefulness, but may become irritated because he just seems to float through life. He fears separation from others due to conflicts. Carebear tends to be attracted to Type 3s (The Self-Promoter) for friends and generally avoids Type 8s (The Ally).

(Sorry, I didn't know if you are a boy or girl so I just left it as male.)

[Carebear]

Wow, thanks! Yes, that fits so well it's scary. I guess I've found my type then. (Do you have any resources on how SX manifests in 9w8 vs. SO and SP by the way?)

And yes, I am a male and healthy. A few traits of 'average' (from the general 9 description) surface under stress, but most of the 'average' traits don't fit at all (though I see how I could get there if I hadn't had such wonderful parents).

Though I still don't see clearly how 9w1 and 9w8 differ, I do fit the 8 subtype in the examples you gave. I guess the pages I stumbled upon described all health levels in one go, and focused so much on the difference between 9w1 and 9w8 they exaggerated the differences so much neither looked like 9s anymore.

[Uberfuhrer]

I always figured that Carebear was a 9, actually. I dunno, but it was a hunch I had. (Although I was thinking more along the lines of 9w1.)

I'm usually a 5w4, but I also score high on 6 and moderate on 9, 1, and 8.

However, I think that my 8-ness is because of the 5 line. In Riso's book, I identify mostly with either 5 or 4 at Level 6.

[wedekit]

Wow, thanks! Yes, that fits so well it's scary. I guess I've found my type then. (Do you have any resources on how SX manifests in 9w8 vs. SO and SP by the way?)

And yes, I am a male and healthy. A few traits of 'average' (from the general 9 description) surface under stress, but most of the 'average' traits don't fit at all (though I see how I could get there if I hadn't had such wonderful parents).

Though I still don't see clearly how 9w1 and 9w8 differ, I do fit the 8 subtype in the examples you gave. I guess the pages I stumbled upon described all health levels in one go, and focused so much on the difference between 9w1 and 9w8 they exaggerated the differences so much neither looked like 9s anymore.

It doesn't go over the SX, SO, and SP at all. =( I am also interested in how that works into the equation. Here is the 9w1 descriptions in case you wanted to compare:

Carebear is a kind, peace-loving person who can see both sides of any argument. He is likely to respond to events, rather than initiate them. He is blessed with a calm confidence that can carry him through any conflict unscathed. Objective and unbiased. He is more cerebral than the other subtype, making him uniquely qualified to look at both sides of an argument to find common ground. Carebear is philosophical and creative. Wise and, at this level, highly principled. A great example for the community, but isn't looking for that. He simply wants a calm world and makes a great friend, listening without judgment, finding good in just about anyone. His flaw comes to the forefront when the world becomes a difficult, tense place. He tries to maintain peace of mind by retreating inside, possibly even fooling himself into believing that everything is okay when it's obviously not. This retraction into self can have a positive effect, however, making him uniquely capable of level-headedness under fire.

Carebear is the product of a harmonious childhood with, possibly, some minor tension - not enough to have much effect but enough to make him rely a little on his own mind when necessary. Carebear was able to easily assimilate both parental identities in his mind, able to create a peaceful world inside as well as out. As an adult, he took an active stance against world problems, looking to solve conflict on a global basis. In a weird kind of way, Carebear has found his value in being able to keep others calm and has sought out as friends those who are conflict oriented, ready for a fight.

Carebear avoids conflict. He would never start an argument and when one surfaces, he will try to put it to bed as quickly as possible, even if it means changing his original stand. He is likely to give into a way of thinking to end the conflict. At times he may tune out when others bring up tough issues. Carebear has learned to be funny, able to make anyone laugh, seeing this as a great way to get everyone on the same track. Being of the cerebral subtype, he is more likely to retreat into the mind when conflict arises, but is able to emerge to add great insight into a situation, presenting the wisdom of the big picture.

Carebear can be reassuring and very accepting in a relationship. Other characters feel appreciated and loved as is and feel calm around his peacefulness, but may become irritated because he just seems to float through life. He fears separation from others due to conflicts. Carebear tends to be attracted to Type 3s (The Self-Promoter) for friends and generally avoids Type 8s (The Ally).

[Carebear]

I always figured that Carebear was a 9, actually. I dunno, but it was a hunch I had. (Although I was thinking more along the lines of 9w1.)

Intriguing! I never get hunches about people's enneagram types. I do on MBTI types though, so I guess it's lack of familiarity with enneagrams that leaves me blind in that area. What made you suspect I was a 9? (Hm... Ni I guess, meaning it's probably hopeless for you to really put your finger on exactly what gave you the idea?)

[Uberfuhrer]

Intriguing! I never get hunches about people's enneagram types. I do on MBTI types though, so I guess it's lack of familiarity with enneagrams that leaves me blind in that area. What made you suspect I was a 9? (Hm... Ni I guess, meaning it's probably hopeless for you to really put your finger on exactly what gave you the idea?)

Well, you seem to project a sort of easy-going spirituality reminiscent to 9s. The difference is that the 9w8 tends to be more earthy and realistic while the 9w1 is more symbolic and idealistic. And that's what made me think of a 9w1.

[Carebear]

It doesn't go over the SX, SO, and SP at all. =( I am also interested in how that works into the equation. Here is the 9w1 descriptions in case you wanted to compare:

Ah, very subtle differences. I'd have said that the 9w1 description fit me rather well too, but the things that don't quite fit are the traits that the 9w8 description hits bullseye on, and the things that do fit are the general 9 traits that both have. So yes, I'm definitely 9w8.

Thanks, that really cleared things up for me.

As for the variants it'd be extremely interesting to see how they work into the equation, but as long as there's no such resource, I think I'm able to see approximately how it all plays out when reading the type descriptions and the variant descriptions.

[wedekit]

Ah, very subtle differences. I'd have said that the 9w1 description fit me rather well too, but the things that don't quite fit are the traits that the 9w8 description hits bullseye on, and the things that do fit are the general 9 traits that both have. So yes, I'm definitely 9w8.

Thanks, that really cleared things up for me.

As for the variants it'd be extremely interesting to see how they work into the equation, but as long as there's no such resource, I think I'm able to see approximately how it all plays out when reading the type descriptions and the variant descriptions.

Yeah, I think it's just another spice in the mix. I knew which variant was mine because mine hit the bullseye when it mentioned how I am essentially in a constant state of shame (or at least in fear of it) because I feel like everyone else has something I do not... and it's true. I do feel that way.

[Evan]

those descriptions of type 9 make me question my type again. i feel like a 1w2 because i'm so compelled to help those in need...

but seeing both sides of an argument is probably one of my most pronounced traits...

[Ezra]

The rest of the book is a hell of a lot more thorough and accurate IMHO.

And I vouch for this, yet again. By the end of the book, you'll know exactly which type you are, what your wing is, and what your variant is. You might even know your trifix.

I used to be an 8 when I was young, but I have lost the wind from my sails and I will never be that way again. I have had moments of 8-ness.

You did not used to be an Eight when you were young unless you are an Eight, which I doubt you are. You merely exhibited behaviour most characteristic of an Eight.

If there was such a thing as a bold and audacious 4, that would be me.

Many Fours are certainly audacious. And what do you mean by 'bold'?

Since my childhood was mostly miserable, then I am sure I will find myself in its pages.

Each type description in TWOTE has a few pages on what's called 'The Childhood Pattern'. If your life was particularly miserable, you should be able to discern your type from reading about each type's childhood pattern.

although i'm 95% sure i'm 1w2 and not 2w1

Why?

So it seems that settles it. I'm E9. Have to look at the 9w8 descriptions now to see if they fit.

Edit: Hm... the wing descriptions seem to contradict much of what the pure 9 description says. I seem to fit some from both 9w1 and 9w8, but much of it doesn't fit. Most in the pure 9 description fits, though. I guess I don't have to stick wings on myself if they don't fit. I'm E9 at least.

No problem here. You're Nine. Ignore the wings. You could have balanced ones anyway. But if you know you're a Nine, they're not that important in self-development. They're merely an identification tool.

Nonetheless, which site are you looking at? The lifexplore one is shit; it doesn't accurately portray a 9w8 at all. I don't think the original writer (Tom Condon) really knew what a Nine was about. The ones in TWOTE are much better.

[INTJMom]

...
You did not used to be an Eight when you were young unless you are an Eight, which I doubt you are. You merely exhibited behaviour most characteristic of an Eight.Okay.

Many Fours are certainly audacious. And what do you mean by 'bold'?
...I guess I was being repetitively redundant. ;)

[wedekit]

those descriptions of type 9 make me question my type again. i feel like a 1w2 because i'm so compelled to help those in need...

but seeing both sides of an argument is probably one of my most pronounced traits...

1w2

Dissonance is a perfectionist in every way. Self-disciplined and principled in everything he does, Dissonance is very emotionally controlled and believes there's a right way to do things and a wrong way. He wants to do it the right way. He holds himself up to the highest standards. The social sub-type is more of a people person, however, so Dissonance is relationship oriented. He wants to get involved with a cause that will help people, possibly a cause directly related to someone he knows or has known. He knows what is right and will stubbornly fight for it. He would make a great lawyer - self-reliant, organized and always punctual. Still this subtype can't shake the basic premise of the personality type: to want to always be right and is willing to do whatever it takes to make the world a place he feels is "perfect."

Dissonance's childhood was very unstable caused by an undependable protective figure. He found stability in others, perhaps a surrogate protective figure who he was then separated from, thereby reestablishing the instability. The reaction to that instability was to look internally, by deciding what's right and wrong, making up his own mind and deciding to act on those ideals to make the world stable, aligning with the rules to contain his anxiety. The social connection, however established, showed Dissonance hope that personal relationships may be the way out of this trap. As an adult, he has failed to find a perfect relationship that will save him He also has a history of severing ties with friends and family who fail to live up to his standards.

Dissonance knows what's right but may want the other characters to learn it on their own. This subtype makes great teachers. Even if your character is not a teacher, he tends to try to teach by example. As a perfectionist, Dissonance speaks correct English. He won't confront someone who's wrong but takes a more passive stance.

Dialogue examples: "I'll show them how it's done right." "I can do it myself." "I hope everyone likes the wine I brought." Internal Dialogue: "Let's all work together to make things right."

Dissonance can be very principled and mature in a relationship. Other characters are attracted to his ethical nature and dependability, but eventually may feel that he's a bit judgmental at times. He tends to be attracted to Type 7s (The Cheerleader) for friends and generally avoids Type 4s (The Bohemian).

[Duchessoftheshadows]

Hey
I came across this I was wondering if anyone is willing to help me understand enneagram a bit more i don't know what my type would be but I have been looking at the forums here I think possibly 5w4
but i don't know I have gotten 9 before as well.

i got both my results below if any one is interested thanks so much in advance.:)

ooh 2nd test said i was 9w1 hmm? really curious about that.

[Walking Tourist]

I'd like to take you up on that offer.
I am clueless about enneagram.
I've taken all of these online tests and have come up with 4, 7, and 9. Surely, I can't be three enneagram types simultaneously???


If you're genuinely confused about what Enneagram type you are, I will help you find it. It might take some time, but we will find it.

[Duchessoftheshadows]

(Originally Posted by Ezra
If you're genuinely confused about what Enneagram type you are, I will help you find it. It might take some time, but we will find it.)

walking tourist are you replying to my post? if so awesome sounds like a plan thanks heh.
I too am totally new/clueless to this and what it means all that jazz hehe.
It's like i think i get it then i get a little more info then i'm confused again :doh: :D. hey whoever said clarity was easy. heh It's confusing*:huh::shock:* a 4,5,9 i have gotten mostly so your not alone "walkingtourist"
I'm ready to dig hehe.
i read around here that 1's and 9's tend to supress there anger for me i don't like getting angry but if it's at the risk of someone using or manipulating me there in for a surprise submissive no more xDD. I read type 8 I have found i "will not" control others(against it) but if they try to control me I don't allow it. I just want to make sure i'm happy too you know not just sacrificing all my needs for everyone else.

Then i think about type 6 it's like a few years ago I was into conspiracy theories(spelling?)
but eventually I was like "what i am going to do that any body hasn't tried to change the sytem etc. I came to the conclusion just live a good life stop being paranoid, make a difference in a more positive way or something similar idk hehe.

I guess i had to develop a bit of a backbone cause of all the stuff that had been tried to be pushed on me that was not my fault pretty much and i almost gave in but i questioned it with a good friend who pretty much saved my life figuritivly.
1 i can see cause I always try my best and if i see i need to improve i get on it soon after beating myself up xDD. Only thing with 7/ or 9 is i don't like being held down or obligated unless that person absolutly needs my help i don't fall for there "victim act" when clearly they have a way out when all they have to do is just stand up on there own two legs woo i'm okay XDDD. now if someone's willing to stand up on there own two legs I would be more willing to help out cause at least your trying and not all "woe is me" etc.Idk just trying to get a grip on all of this enneagram stuff pretty interesting.
Sorry if i rambled ^^P. thanks.

[am_i_evil666]

Yes, I don't know what is my enneagram type. I've tested,many times and alternately 3, 4 and 7. I still don't know which one is it.

[Duchessoftheshadows]

it's so tricky XDDD i guess that's the fun part is learning something everytime;).
i'm just going to research see where the road goes ;)
am-i-evil ooh interesting name :D :hi:

[noigmn]

I typed as 4w5 today. I've always done okay in that region but never had a consistant result before.

What's a 4w5 normally like?

[Amargith]

I wouldn't mind some help as I'm still very new to this system. I took a test and these are the results:

Type 1 -7
Type 2 6
Type 3 0
Type 4 9
Type 5 -9
Type 6 2
Type 7 7
Type 8 -5
type 9 -3

[Geoff]

9w1 for me.