Type clarification? [Archive]

Virlomi

12-13-2007, 08:41 PM

Ah, hello... I'm quite new to the forum (and the MBTI concept in general, I suppose) and hope to get my type more definitely sorted out.

I initially tested as an IXTP, but did not find the ISTP description very accurate. Since then, I test usually as an INTP. I accepted this for a bit, but today I've been doing some more in-depth reading on the subjects, and the more I read, the less sure I am. I could be just second-guessing. So, I'm interested in opinions, if I may be allowed to say a bit about myself? I'm going to try to be as objective as I can, please bear with me.

To start, I'm female, a junior in high school, and pretty atheistic. I'm intelligent and usually prefer the company of those older than myself. I'm mildly serious about playing my clarinet, though I don't think that's what I want to do as a career, nor do I think I'm good enough for that. I'm good at languages, but get more enjoyment out of sciences, and to a lesser extent mathematics. I'm rather cynical, I've been told, and I can't dispute the accusations of sarcasm. Also compulsively polite and feel quite guilty whenever someone does something for me. I really enjoy time by myself, and am quite content not to go out and do things if no opportunities present themselves. I spend a lot of quality time with my Rubik's Cube, it's something nice to do with my hands.

I'm very quiet in new situations, and I don't usually initiate conversations with new people. Starting off introductions feels awkward to me, not something that comes naturally. I have a small circle of friends that mean the world to me. However, if I'm somewhere new with one of these friends, I'm much more confident, and hardly shy at all. My first year of high school I was timid... by now, I'm comfortable in the surrounding and can interact freely with others. I have a much larger circle of people I enjoy being around, and can be myself easily. It's to the point where I can feel easy around new additions to, say, the clarinet section with minimal effort.

I place a high personal value on things such as grades, ACTs, etc. At the same time, I can be immensely lazy regarding school work and usually procrastinate everything. I'm not very organized... Things will get to a point where the mess irritates me, but things never stay clean for long. I don't like having my life scheduled, but I stress a bit on school related projects if a group that I'm in seems content to just 'wing it.'

I usually get along best with those that share my interests somewhat, books, music, computers... I dislike sports. My friends typically have their own idiosyncrasies and bouts of unpredictability, like I do. If I feel like riding a carousel in public, I do so without much concern for others, and my friends are the type to join me. I'm usually pretty laid-back, and take things in stride, but also have days where I have seemingly boundless energy and good cheer.

I really don't think I'm the 'feeling' type. I don't get really emotionally involved in things much. I don't get angry much, I'm pretty hard to irritate, I rarely cry. (Except when I laugh, which I can't do without crying. (: ) I'm not the type to be attracted to someone easily, and I dislike having a 'crush' on someone... It makes me anxious around a person I previously could be comfortable around as a friend, and I resent that. I'm logic oriented and it's something I don't understand or have a choice in. I assume part of that is being fifteen. I'd rather not downplay my age- if you aren't going to be able to respect me despite it, than I guess that's that. And if you find me being immature or 'like a 15-year-old,' I'd rather know it than not.

Eh, I would hope that would be plenty/a start, it's more talking about myself than I've done in a long time. If you have any opinions or questions, please respond?

"?"

12-13-2007, 09:20 PM

I know you are dismissing feeling types, but it seems for the wrong reasons. Basic principle of type is that emotions does not come into play. Fe and Fi are as cognitive as Ti and Te. The only difference is Fi and Fe base their decisions on the human factor and Ti and Te on non-human factors. I would say that ISFP (http://bestfittype.com/isfp.html) should be considered as well as INFJ (http://bestfittype.com/infj.html), but don't dismiss ISTP (http://bestfittype.com/istp.html) if you are limiting your viewpoint to stereotyped info like being mechanically inclined.

MerkW

12-13-2007, 09:22 PM

Hmmm...perhaps you should test your Jungian cognitive functions to determine your type. Here is a test where such can be done:

Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes (http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/assessment/survey.html)

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

Virlomi

12-13-2007, 09:47 PM

Thank you for the thoughts, link and welcome-

extraverted Sensing (Se) *************************** (27.3)
average use
introverted Sensing (Si) ********************************* (33.2)
good use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ************************************ (36.2)
excellent use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ************************* (25.9)
average use
extraverted Thinking (Te) ******************************* (31.3)
good use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ****************************************** (42.5)
excellent use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ************** (14.8)
unused
introverted Feeling (Fi) ***************************** (29)
average use

INTP again. Does it seem to fit after all? I think I've considered this too much, all I do is second-guess myself. I just scored ISTP again on a different test as well.

MerkW

12-13-2007, 10:07 PM

INTJMom

12-13-2007, 10:17 PM

I have a suggestion.
Sometimes when we take these tests, we can get too close and lose objectivity.
Is it possible for you to have a couple of girls who know you pretty well help you take the test?
What I mean is, you could ask their opinion of how you should answer each question.

The reason I suggest it is this: before I met my husband, I thought I was a very observant person, but after I got to know him and learned how much attention he paid to everything, I realized I am not a naturally observant person, like my husband is. I thought I was observant until I compared myself to someone who really is observant.
Your friends might be a little different from you and may be able see you differently than you see yourself.

If that's not possible, maybe you could just ask them a few questions over the phone.

I am a very strong "J" yet I used to procrastinate on my homework and have a messy room, too. But after a while, it would drive me nuts and I would have to clean it up. People who just want to "wing it" stress me out, too.

My husband has a couple of favorite sayings: "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it." and "Stay flexible and have fun." both of which drive me crazy - especially when I'm the one who has to do the being flexible and the waiting!! He's an ISTP.

I'm an INTJ on the outside and an INFJ on the inside.

Are you really critical of yourself? Are you a perfectionist? Do people tell you not to be so hard on yourself?

INTJMom

12-13-2007, 10:18 PM

I tested as an INTP on that test, too, and I am a very strong J.

INTJMom

12-13-2007, 10:19 PM

Here's a test that might prove to be helpful if you can remember how you were as a kid.
The Personality Questionnaire for Kids (http://www.personalitypage.com/cgi-local/build_pqk.cgi)

Evan

12-13-2007, 11:29 PM

you sounded quite INTP from the first post. and after reading your test results, it seems even more likely.

Randomnity

12-14-2007, 01:56 AM

I test as INTP as well, and I thought I was one for a long time until hanging out with INTPs made me realize that I wasn't one. A lot of the tests and descriptions out there are really biased towards N, so if you perceive yourself as being halfway intelligent, the scores can be shifted towards N.

For the record, everything you wrote applies to me, except the hating sports (although I did hate them in high school). Supposedly the primary function (Ti for both types) develops during your teens while the secondary function (Ne for INTP, Se for ISTP) develops during your early 20s, so it isn't really surprising that you're having trouble telling which one fits you better. Looking back, I was a lot more INTP-ish in high school.

Try reading this description and see if it resonates with you - it's the most accurate one I've found. And it's no big deal if you still aren't sure, I'm sure hanging around here will give you a better idea over time.

ISTP - Introverted Thinking with Sensing (http://www.murraystate.edu/secsv/fye/ISTP.htm)

Anyway, welcome!

Athenian200

12-14-2007, 08:26 AM

I don't think you're a Perceiving type, just based on your word choices, proper punctuation, and lack of spelling errors. You were very specific and easy to follow. And I wouldn't worry too much about your age, as long as you don't derail threads or make trouble... some of the people in their 20's here still haven't matured enough to post intelligently, as a matter of fact.

You seem IJ-ish, but I can't really discriminate T/F or S/N. I'm gravitating towards INTJ as being likely for you based on the available information... your disorganization may be more lack of S than lack of J (since I rarely clean/organize my folders... and though I usually get work done on time, sometimes I forget or become distracted and end up rushing at the last minute.) Also, some INTJ's have a tendency to be compulsively polite, although just as many are rude.

Oh, and you probably shouldn't trust that test. It pegs practically everyone who tends to be curious and meticulous in their studies of an abstract concept as INTP. The definitions of the functions don't necessarily fall within the lines they've drawn, and I tend to think the functional order test is intrinsically flawed in crucial ways.

"?"

12-14-2007, 01:57 PM

Hmmm...perhaps you should test your Jungian cognitive functions to determine your type. Here is a test where such can be done:The test is really not capable of determining your true cognitive process. Depending on what day I take that assessment, any cognitive process can be in dominant mode. I have tested INJ, INTP, ENTP and ESTP based on how I was adapting to my environment during the period. There is no quick and easy way to determine type, especially for those preferring perceiving to judging. Finding out your temperament then your interaction style seems to be the most viable means. Otherwise, the test are only as viable as the person is truthful to themselves.

Splittet

12-14-2007, 02:15 PM

INTJMom

12-14-2007, 02:27 PM

...
Oh, and you probably shouldn't trust that test. It pegs practically everyone who tends to be curious and meticulous in their studies of an abstract concept as INTP. The definitions of the functions don't necessarily fall within the lines they've drawn, and I tend to think the functional order test is intrinsically flawed in crucial ways.I agree.

Athenian200

12-14-2007, 03:59 PM

You are INTP. I must say, athenian200, I think you are very wrong in your assessment. Your statements on perceiving types and word choice, spelling and so on is pretty superficial and provocative. I can guarantee you most INTPs, the type with the highest average IQ, are very good writers, with few mistakes, and an excellent ability to communicate something with clarity.

Well, maybe we associate with different INTPs... most of the ones I know (much to my usually unexpressed chagrin) couldn't care less about spelling. Perhaps they communicate clearly to most people, but I have trouble understanding them because they often make generalizations, and I usually need to understand any exceptions and the reasons for them in order to make sense of what I'm dealing with. I'm not saying they aren't intelligent, quite the opposite... they have a different kind of intelligence, the P's right-brained sort, as opposed to a J's left-brained kind. I'm just saying that in my experience, they struggle to explain the details of an idea in a way I can understand without asking them to clarify on several points. Of course, they do eventually express their idea clearly if you ask the right questions, and it's usually very insightful. They're usually capable of expressing their ideas more clearly than FP's, but they still struggle in similar ways.

I don't see why my idea is provocative or superficial. Most believe that J's are left-brained, and P's are right-brained. And right-brained individuals are more spatial than verbal, meaning that on average, they'll tend to have more difficulty expressing themselves via language. Such people are usually better at "seeing the big picture," designing a new system, or inventing a novel solution, though, so it's more an explanation of a trade-off than a proclamation that one type is better than another.

To me Ti is the voice of clarity, in contrast with for example Ni, which I consider very personal, and hard to communicate. I do think Ni becomes a very powerful weapon in communication though, if the user masters to communicate it, but I think few do that well, me being an excellent example of not being able to communicate it well.

There are aspects of it that are hard to communicate, but I encounter them infrequently. In fact, communication/writing is one of my better skills... I'm not particularly good with art, mathematics, or any sort of physical activity, which are (typically) the domain of right-brained individuals.

When you say that Ni is very personal/incommunicable... are you sure you aren't referring to Fi? Also, I don't see how any Introverted function could be strongly related to clarity of expression (although it might be related to clarity of understanding/thought)... they are only expressed as their affect on the expression of the Extraverted function, and aren't expressed directly/outwardly.

Splittet

12-14-2007, 04:18 PM

I don't see why my idea is provocative or superficial. Most believe that J's are left-brained, and P's are right-brained. And right-brained individuals are more spatial than verbal, meaning that on average, they'll tend to have more difficulty expressing themselves via language. Such people are usually better at "seeing the big picture," designing a new system, or inventing a novel solution, though, so it's more an explanation of a trade-off than a proclamation that one type is better than another.

Ability to spell correctly correlations heavily with intelligence, just as heavily as the language tasks you see in IQ tests. Actually it correlates more heavily with intelligence than word recognition. So when the INTP type has the highest average IQ, it means they should be one of the best types at spelling. And indeed it is my experience they are. (Source: Staveferdighet utvikles over tid (http://www.forskning.no/Artikler/2007/oktober/1192433009.12) I am sorry it is in Norwegian though.)

There are aspects of it that are hard to communicate, but I encounter them infrequently. In fact, communication/writing is one of my better skills... I'm not particularly good with art, mathematics, or any sort of physical activity, which are (typically) the domain of right-brained individuals.

When you say that Ni is very personal/incommunicable... are you sure you aren't referring to Fi? Also, I don't see how any Introverted function could be strongly related to clarity of expression (although it might be related to clarity of understanding/thought)... they are only expressed as their affect on the expression of the Extraverted function, and aren't expressed directly/outwardly.

What I was saying was that most INJs were not very skilled at communicating Ni. It might be INFJs are better than INTJs, because of their people-oriented Fe. Anyhow, the reason why you do not often encounter this problem might very well be that you are one of those INJs skilled at communicating Ni.

cascadeco

12-14-2007, 04:55 PM

Most believe that J's are left-brained, and P's are right-brained. And right-brained individuals are more spatial than verbal, meaning that on average, they'll tend to have more difficulty expressing themselves via language. Such people are usually better at "seeing the big picture," designing a new system, or inventing a novel solution, though, so it's more an explanation of a trade-off than a proclamation that one type is better than another.

There are aspects of it that are hard to communicate, but I encounter them infrequently. In fact, communication/writing is one of my better skills... I'm not particularly good with art, mathematics, or any sort of physical activity, which are (typically) the domain of right-brained individuals.

The problem I have with right/left brain being associated with P/J is that it is common (at least on this board, and I reckon in real life too) for people to use both sides fairly equally. As for myself, with any 'brain test' I've taken online, I always come out with using the two sides equally, or there's a one point difference.

And in real life, I don't think it's uncommon for Intuitives to excel in both your logical/scientific pursuits as well as your music/artistic ones. Often I think the two can go hand in hand.

It's one thing that caused me a bit of an 'identity crisis' growing up. I excelled at school work (science, math...really, everything), and communication, particularly written, has always been one of my strengths - it is frequently cited as my key strength in job performance reviews.

On the other hand, I was equally gifted at music growing up, math has always come rather easily for me (aside from 3D calc, but that's beside the point ;-), and I was very much inclined towards the arts growing up - painting, drawing, creative stuff...in fact I had a lot more enjoyment pursuing the arts than theory. However, I sucked at team sports. hehe.

So I don't know that I'm a fan of pinpointing right/left to P/J, unless you're talking *extreme* P's or J's, and then possibly there's some validity to it. But otherwise....I don't know. It just seems like trying to join two theories together that perhaps shouldn't be joined. Seems like there'd be a LOT of people who it wouldn't really apply to. On the other hand, by joining the two, it would provide explanation for why so many people waver on the P/J thing, and never fully know which one they are, and never seem like one or the other........

"?"

12-14-2007, 05:00 PM

I don't think you're a Perceiving type, just based on your word choices, proper punctuation, and lack of spelling errors. You were very specific and easy to follow. And I wouldn't worry too much about your age, as long as you don't derail threads or make trouble... some of the people in their 20's here still haven't matured enough to post intelligently, as a matter of fact.I do agree that the assessment as most, seems to result in INTP when a choice is in the air therefore would rule out INTP for that fact. When taking the Step II, it resulted in me being INTP. I must also agree with Splittet is correct that your assessment seems flawed since the definition of Ti is Introverted Thinking - Analyzing, categorizing, and figuring out how something works. Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point. Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it. It also involves an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles. These can then be used in problem solving, analysis, and refining of a product or an idea. This process is evidenced in behaviors like taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work. The analysis involves looking at different sides of an issue and seeing where there is inconsistency. In so doing, there is a search for a "leverage point" that will fix problems with the least amount of effort or damage to the system.

Athenian200

12-14-2007, 07:07 PM

I must also agree with Splittet is correct that your assessment seems flawed since the definition of Ti is

I know that. I just meant that perhaps that those definitions (which are the same as those the test uses for its questions), may also be flawed, perhaps mixing parts of some functions into descriptions of others, creating a certain amount of confusion.

I agree that Ti's generally have a strong sense of what "is," and how and why it "is," but they're not always good at expressing it verbally. They don't seem quite as oriented to language as J's, and I've had more than one tell me they don't think verbally. But I know that I have a tendency to do so. Also, I'm not referring to vocabulary so much as to punctuation, spelling, and other grammatical rules, which often seem like artificial/pointless ideas to INTP's. I'll admit they have good enough vocabularies, though. My other issue is that they can be very broad in what they say, or even offer information that isn't obviously related to what I was talking about, and thus avoid addressing my point.

ptgatsby

12-14-2007, 07:26 PM

To start, I'm female, a junior in high school, and pretty atheistic.

While this does not lead to a conclusion, it is entirely possible that you are an ISTP that is still undergoing development. Teens test vastly more N than S, especially early on. This doesn't mean anything one way or the other, but it may be difficult to determine because you haven't fully developped cognitively.

Splittet

12-14-2007, 07:47 PM

Also, I'm not referring to vocabulary so much as to punctuation, spelling, and other grammatical rules, which often seem like artificial/pointless ideas to INTP's.

Wow, this is unbelievable to me. Did you even read what I wrote? Do other INTPs agree? Do you think it fits? Is grammar irrelevant to you?

"?"

12-14-2007, 08:29 PM

I agree that Ti's generally have a strong sense of what "is," and how and why it "is," but they're not always good at expressing it verbally.Without having Gifts Differing in front of me, I recall that NJs have a hard time articulating their ideas from Ni, because they are almost unexplainable. They don't seem quite as oriented to language as J's, and I've had more than one tell me they don't think verbally. But I know that I have a tendency to do so. Also, I'm not referring to vocabulary so much as to punctuation, spelling, and other grammatical rules, which often seem like artificial/pointless ideas to INTP's. I'll admit they have good enough vocabularies, though. My other issue is that they can be very broad in what they say, or even offer information that isn't obviously related to what I was talking about, and thus avoid addressing my point.I don't think that grammatical rules can be based on type. Based not on experience of observing but from this site that references to writing styles per MBTI theories (http://websearch.cs.com/cs/boomframe.jsp?query=ENTP&page=2&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D6 d00f8ca6dea2b6f%26clickedItemRank%3D24%26userQuery %3DENTP%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww. ranshawconsulting.com%252Fentp.htm%26invocationTyp e%3Dnext%26fromPage%3DCSNextPrev%26amp%3BampTest%3 D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ranshawconsulting.com% 2Fentp.htm), some INTP writing strengths and weaknesses are:
Can find flaws in others’ arguments and correct concisely in writing.
When not challenged, may resort to an overly academic style.
May be too dry for the audience or ignore others’ feelings.
May be ineffective with canned formats.

Some for INTJs are:
Plan extensively.
Often have good ideas which they present in a clear, organized manner.
Concern with speed may lead to skimpy research.

INFJ:
Tend to include personal values in writing to ensure clarity.
Writing may be too formal or academic in tone for business audiences.

ISTPs:
Often write quickly once they have facts at hand.
Tend to ramble and may have many more facts than needed but include them anyway.
Focus on details so much that they are likely to ignore the reader.

ISTJs:
Most efficient of all writers in estimating time and completing projects.
Because they value the details, may overwhelm the reader .

Athenian200

12-14-2007, 10:45 PM

Without having Gifts Differing in front of me, I recall that NJs have a hard time articulating their ideas from Ni, because they are almost unexplainable.

Well, I think what it meant is that Ni tends to get inexplicable hunches at times, not that the majority of Ni's insights are inexplicable as a general rule. I have difficulty believing that... left brained people are usually better with language/articulation than right brained people, and I don't see why an exception should exist here.
I don't think that grammatical rules can be based on type.

Of course they're not. They're based on the English language, in our case. (Although I think some of them were borrowed from Latin ideas.) Understanding of/concern for grammatical rules may vary based on type, but atypically high/low intelligence can override the normal tendencies.

Based not on experience of observing but from this site that references to writing styles per MBTI theories (http://websearch.cs.com/cs/boomframe.jsp?query=ENTP&page=2&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D6 d00f8ca6dea2b6f%26clickedItemRank%3D24%26userQuery %3DENTP%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww. ranshawconsulting.com%252Fentp.htm%26invocationTyp e%3Dnext%26fromPage%3DCSNextPrev%26amp%3BampTest%3 D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ranshawconsulting.com% 2Fentp.htm), some INTP writing strengths and weaknesses are:
Can find flaws in others’ arguments and correct concisely in writing.
When not challenged, may resort to an overly academic style.
May be too dry for the audience or ignore others’ feelings.
May be ineffective with canned formats.

Some for INTJs are:
Plan extensively.
Often have good ideas which they present in a clear, organized manner.
Concern with speed may lead to skimpy research.

INFJ:
Tend to include personal values in writing to ensure clarity.
Writing may be too formal or academic in tone for business audiences.

ISTPs:
Often write quickly once they have facts at hand.
Tend to ramble and may have many more facts than needed but include them anyway.
Focus on details so much that they are likely to ignore the reader.

ISTJs:
Most efficient of all writers in estimating time and completing projects.
Because they value the details, may overwhelm the reader .

Very interesting information... I'll have to remember that. But I haven't seen samples of formal writing from most of the types on here, so I don't really know how I should apply this.

Splittet

12-14-2007, 10:52 PM

left brained people are usually better with language/articulation than right brained people, and I don't see why an exception should exist here.

That's so over-simplified. Firstly it's likely correlations based on this at best are only low. And again you must take into account the INTP type has the highest average IQ. The MBTI site on writing styles says INTPs often write too academically for their audience. Do you think an academic writing style matches well with ignorance of grammar?

Virlomi

12-14-2007, 11:27 PM

Oh, wow, there are a lot of responses, thank you. I'm a little slower getting back to this than I would like-

INTJMom- I will ask one of my friends to help me as soon as I get the chance. I'm not overly critical with myself. I like to do things reasonably well, but I tend to disregard schoolwork or activities that I find tedious or unproductive, often turning in work that's good enough to get me a grade, but not a bit beyond. I get very indepth once I find something that interests me. I generally like my best efforts. Musically is the one area where I'm never content with myself.

From the childhood quiz, I scored as an ENP. I was more outgoing a few years ago. The details sounded right as well.

Randomnity- That was an interesting profile, and different from most of the stuff I've heard in relation to ISTPs. Some of it seemed very much like me, such as their "Contributions to the Organization" section in the summary, and the enjoyment of completing something tactile, but the rest of it doesn't quite seem to gel. I'm really not much for sports, extreme activities, or living on the edge at all. I also don't require doing something to learn it, I'm content to stick with the theory at times. This really does make me consider a Sensing type, though.

athenian200- Thank you, but I think I have to attribute my lack of spelling mistakes to Firefox's built in spell check. (: The comment about my lack of organization due to a low S confuses me a bit though, as I usually am quite close between N/S.

"?"- Finding out my temperament via my interaction style... I assume you mean just watching how I react in situations, are there any specific things I should think about in relation to any specific type?

ptgatsby- Ooh, that's an interesting concept, one that I'm comfortable with. So, is there still a point in determining type now? Which is the approach taken with this- consider yourself an 'n' but be aware of the possibility of future change? I'm not sure.

As to the left-brain, right-brain, word choice and clarity discussion, I really don't feel like I know enough about the whole concept to really weigh in... hence the thread! I strongly believe that you have to be able to get ideas across when necessary... grammar seems to be a decent start towards this.

"?"'s writing qualities of an INTP does sound like me. The INTJ sounds far from it, if they are usual attributes.

A question- how much does David Kiersey's ideas differ from the MBTI? I don't know. I was just lent his book regarding temperaments, but I'd like to know how much of their concepts are interchangeable, if any.

MerkW

12-14-2007, 11:31 PM

Wow, this is unbelievable to me. Did you even read what I wrote? Do other INTPs agree? Do you think it fits? Is grammar irrelevant to you?

I agree with you, Splittet. I, an INTP, am usually very careful when structuring my sentences. I usually do care quite a bit about the grammar and spelling of my writing. Similarly, I have observed this trait in many other INTPs. I don't know where athenian2000 got the fallacious generalization that INTPs couldn't care less about grammar, spelling, etc. from.

P.S. Similarly, athenian200 earlier made a generalization about Ps "lacking foresight and vision." This couldn't be any worse at describing me.

INTJMom

12-15-2007, 12:50 AM

...
INTJMom- I will ask one of my friends to help me as soon as I get the chance. I'm not overly critical with myself. I like to do things reasonably well, but I tend to disregard schoolwork or activities that I find tedious or unproductive, often turning in work that's good enough to get me a grade, but not a bit beyond. I get very indepth once I find something that interests me. I generally like my best efforts. Musically is the one area where I'm never content with myself....I thought perhaps you might be an INTJ or INFJ, but both of those types tend to be perfectionists, and it doesn't sound like you suffer from that.

Since you didn't relate to the ISTP profile very well and you don't learn by doing, I would think you're probably INTP.

Just remember that every individual is an exception to the rule. Don't let your type define you. Just be yourself, and be the best you can be! :hug:

Athenian200

12-15-2007, 01:07 AM

athenian200- Thank you, but I think I have to attribute my lack of spelling mistakes to Firefox's built in spell check. (: The comment about my lack of organization due to a low S confuses me a bit though, as I usually am quite close between N/S.

I'm using Firefox spell check as well... although I tend to notice more common spelling errors without it. But my point was that it seems like P's are less organized, and if they're less organized and diligent, then surely their spelling would suffer. If you care enough about spelling to actually run a spell check program, that still says something...

As to the left-brain, right-brain, word choice and clarity discussion, I really don't feel like I know enough about the whole concept to really weigh in... hence the thread! I strongly believe that you have to be able to get ideas across when necessary... grammar seems to be a decent start towards this.

Don't worry, they're just outside theories we keep mentioning to try and explain MBTI more thoroughly, and to justify our typings of individuals. Unfortunately, we tend to disagree on what's accurate and relevant to each type.

I agree with you, Splittet. I, an INTP, am usually very careful when structuring my sentences. I usually do care quite a bit about the grammar and spelling of my writing. Similarly, I have observed this trait in many other INTPs. I don't know where athenian2000 got the fallacious generalization that INTPs couldn't care less about grammar, spelling, etc. from.

First of all, I'm athenian200. It's from dealing with a person typed as INTP who claimed that spelling/grammatical rules were "conventional cant," and weren't important... claiming that only a J would attach that much importance to form, and thinking I was silly when I would correct myself after making a punctuation or spelling error in chat to make sure I was understood. He indicated this by reminding me that he "wasn't a J," and wouldn't be confused by such a thing. Of course, I decided to take this same idea as evidence that J's were just more diligent and precise with language. :)

Of course, it's also from dealing with another INTP who kept making incorrect generalizations, and justifying it by mentioning something about the "level of discourse," and thought that they were making it "simpler." I think it was just inaccurate... inaccurate statements maybe simpler, even if they're commonly accepted, but that doesn't mean they really help anyone to understand anything.

P.S. Similarly, athenian2000 earlier made a generalization about Ps "lacking foresight and vision." This couldn't be any worse at describing me.

That was a joke... I was trying to create a splinter in your movement by getting the INTJ's to side with another Ni dominant by playing on their mistrust of P's. I only meant that Ni is typically seen as very future oriented and visionary, not that INTP's couldn't think ahead well enough to create any sort of strategy. I was emphasizing the similarities of INxJ's.

MerkW

12-15-2007, 01:44 AM

I'm using Firefox spell check as well... although I tend to notice more common spelling errors without it. But my point was that it seems like P's are less organized, and if they're less organized and diligent, then surely their spelling would suffer. If you care enough about spelling to actually run a spell check program, that still says something...

Don't worry, they're just outside theories we keep mentioning to try and explain MBTI more thoroughly, and to justify our typings of individuals. Unfortunately, we tend to disagree on what's accurate and relevant to each type.

First of all, I'm athenian200. It's from dealing with a person typed as INTP who claimed that spelling/grammatical rules were "conventional cant," and weren't important... claiming that only a J would attach that much importance to form, and thinking I was silly when I would correct myself after making a punctuation or spelling error in chat to make sure I was understood. He indicated this by reminding me that he "wasn't a J," and wouldn't be confused by such a thing. Of course, I decided to take this same idea as evidence that J's were just more diligent and precise with language. :)

Of course, it's also from dealing with another INTP who kept making incorrect generalizations, and justifying it by mentioning something about the "level of discourse," and thought that they were making it "simpler." I think it was just inaccurate... inaccurate statements maybe simpler, even if they're commonly accepted, but that doesn't mean they really help anyone to understand anything.

That was a joke... I was trying to create a splinter in your movement by getting the INTJ's to side with another Ni dominant by playing on their mistrust of P's. I only meant that Ni is typically seen as very future oriented and visionary, not that INTP's couldn't think ahead well enough to create any sort of strategy. I was emphasizing the similarities of INxJ's.

Oho. All is well in the fig trees. Interestingly, it so happens that my Ni is as strong as my Ne and Ti. Yet, I come out as INTP because my Te isn't particularly outstanding.

TenebrousReflection

12-15-2007, 03:25 AM

I have not seen this specific test linked to in this thread, so I'd like to recommend the one I considered helpful.

Free personality tests: find out your type (http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/mmdi-re/mmdi-re.htm)

Others have commented that it is as flawed as any other test, and that may be so, but I think the way the questions are worded sets it apart from other tests.

And a question on how you perceive politeness.

Which of these best describes your view of politeness?

It is just the right thing to do.
It is just instinct and you don't really think about it.
- I think both of those would point to Fe (possibly Te - following the rules)

You are concerned about the feelings of those you are being polite to.
- Could point to either Fe or Fi

Because being impolite could create problems, it takes less effort to be polite than it does to fix problems caused by not being polite.
- How I think someone with dominant Ti would view politeness.

None of the above / something else.

My initial inclination is toward IxTP, but based on your age, you may not have fully differentiated your type so what conclusions you reach now may not be the same as you will reach four to eight years from now. I think its still good to try to determine what your basic preferences are and pursue education options along those lines for more satisfaction down the road, and although you don't sound like an xxFx to me, I would not rule it out completely (many of us INFxs confused ourselves for INTxs at some point). I think someone already offered the link to the test at the following page, but I'm not sure if the test takes you to the main page there or not, so I'd recommend reviewing the information at the following page Personality and Kids (http://www.personalitypage.com/kid_info.html) and seeing if any descriptions give you an "ah ha!" moment.

I don't know of a really good ISTP description, but I'd recommend reading the INTP description here An INTP Profile (http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html) and seeing if that seems to fit.

"?"

12-15-2007, 03:54 PM

"?"- Finding out my temperament via my interaction style... I assume you mean just watching how I react in situations, are there any specific things I should think about in relation to any specific type?Actually I mean taking a good temperament test to determine your prefernce. Keep in mind that we use all type functions and temperaments. Organizing them in to a priority will be first step to determining whether you prefer SP, NT, NF or SJ. I like the test (http://www.notjustapaycheck.com/careerstrength.html) because it does rank the order of temperament preferences and gives you a better understanding of why you may or may not appear like your best fit type. In my case I prefer SP-NT-NF-SJ. Then you can eliminate three of the four types in the temperament by determing your interaction style ( http://bestfittype.com/interactionstyles.html). Also, bestfittype.com offers the best descriptions of type that I have seen. I thought that I posted the URLs on one my earlier post, but it may have been for a different thread.

Virlomi

12-15-2007, 09:14 PM

My results-

ISTJ 59%
ISFJ 46%
INFJ 56%
INTJ 68%
ISTP 67%
ISFP 40%
INFP 45%
INTP 72%
ESTP 52%
ESFP 40%
ENTP 62%
ESTJ 63%
ESFJ 36%
ENFJ 41%
ENTJ 68%

Politeness for me is somewhat instinctual... Even as a much younger kid I never asked for anything, because I considered that rude, and never understood those that did. These days, I still have the nagging need to be polite, but I appreciate it more, because it can open a lot of doors for you.

Ah, thanks for the clarification on interaction styles, the links much have been a different thread. I was strategical, tactical, logical, and then diplomatic, and then 'Behind-the-Scenes.'

INTJMom

12-15-2007, 09:21 PM

My results-

ISTJ 59%
ISFJ 46%
INFJ 56%
INTJ 68%
ISTP 67%
ISFP 40%
INFP 45%
INTP 72%
ESTP 52%
ESFP 40%
ENTP 62%
ESTJ 63%
ESFJ 36%
ENFJ 41%
ENTJ 68%

Politeness for me is somewhat instinctual... Even as a much younger kid I never asked for anything, because I considered that rude, and never understood those that did. These days, I still have the nagging need to be polite, but I appreciate it more, because it can open a lot of doors for you.
INTP 72%
INTJ & ENTJ 68%
ISTP 67%

Interesting results.

INTJMom

12-15-2007, 09:24 PM

INTP - Introverted Thinking with Intuition (http://www.murraystate.edu/secsv/fye/INTP.htm)
INTJ - Introverted Intuition with Thinking (http://www.murraystate.edu/secsv/fye/INTJ.htm)
Extraverted Thinking with Intuition (http://www.murraystate.edu/secsv/fye/ENTJ.htm)
ISTP - Introverted Thinking with Sensing (http://www.murraystate.edu/secsv/fye/ISTP.htm)

If you have some time to kill, you could read these profiles and see which one you relate to the most.

Splittet

12-15-2007, 09:24 PM

Virlomi

12-15-2007, 09:57 PM

haha, alright then. (: Thank you for your help.

Athenian200

12-15-2007, 10:28 PM

Why are we still discussing this? Virlomi is an INTP. Politeness might be due to her relatively strong Si, or simply due to her gender and cultural influences, or just a combination of all these factors. Not that interesting, really.

No, I don't agree. But apparently you've convinced this person that they are, so it doesn't matter much at this point. I'm mildly annoyed that you're conveniently chalking it up to culture/gender and dismissing all the differences that don't fit with that in what I consider to be an unsound manner. Here are my main reasons for thinking this person probably isn't an INTP:

1. Friends. the person appreciates their friends to enough of an extent that I don't think you can make a case for inferior Fe. The timidity mentioned earlier could be any introverted type, after all. Also, even female INTP's tend to have problems socially (just ask them), and if anything can have more issues in some ways than male ones because they're so far removed from the norm.

2. Politeness. INTP's would have a hard time (to say the least) just acting polite all the time. They may be aware enough to not say anything, or just give a minimal, neutral response, but acting "compulsively polite" would not be something they would/could do under normal circumstances. There are times some of them would want to, but it's just not something they can do without a lot of stress.

3. Order. The person seemed to have too much of an appreciation for structure/order to be much of a Perceiving type. The introduction was arranged in paragraphs, and each topic seemed to follow from the previous one, and the order they were presented in created the sense of one topic going into the other without any abrupt or seemingly random shifts.

Splittet

12-15-2007, 10:39 PM

No, I don't agree. But apparently you've convinced this person that they are, so it doesn't matter much at this point. I'm mildly annoyed that you're conveniently chalking it up to culture/gender and dismissing all the differences that don't fit with that in what I consider to be an unsound manner. Here are my main reasons for thinking this person probably isn't an INTP:

I ask, haven't she tested as INTP in almost all the tests? How many times do you want to second-guess that?

1. Friends. the person appreciates their friends to enough of an extent that I don't think you can make a case for inferior Fe. The timidity mentioned earlier could be any introverted type, after all. Also, even female INTP's tend to have problems socially (just ask them), and if anything can have more issues in some ways than male ones because they're so far removed from the norm.

I am an IT, and I love my friends, and value them tremendously. Does that mean I can't be an IT? Must every introvert be socially handicapped?

2. Politeness. INTP's would have a hard time (to say the least) just acting polite all the time. They may be aware enough to not say anything, or just give a minimal, neutral response, but acting "compulsively polite" would not be something they would/could do under normal circumstances. There are times some of them would want to, but it's just not something they can do without a lot of stress.

Did you see how I mentioned relatively strong Si?

3. Order. The person seemed to have too much of an appreciation for structure/order to be much of a Perceiving type. The introduction was arranged in paragraphs, and each topic followed from the previous one sequentially, and the order they were presented in created the sense of one topic going into the other without any abrupt or seemingly random shifts.

Haha, again you are referring to the writings of Virlomi? I think I did a fairly good case for INTPs being one of the best types at grammar and spelling. You seem to forget it is on average the type with the highest IQ. Sorry, but your prejudices seem to mislead you. But even if her order is relatively high for her type, it might be explained by her relatively strong Si. Conlusion is therefore that Virlomi is an INTP with a strong tertiary Si.

Athenian200

12-15-2007, 10:48 PM

I ask, haven't she tested as INTP in almost all the tests? How many times do you want to second-guess that?

Okay... that's reasonable.

I am an IT, and I love my friends, and value them tremendously. Does that mean I can't be an IT? Must every introvert be socially handicapped?

INTJ would have tertiary Fi, and INTP would have Inferior Fe. So it would be reasonable for an INTJ to have friends they love/value tremendously, but it would be really hard for an INTP to make the same admission (Inferior Fe). They might have friends they spend time with to pursue particular interests, but they would be hard-pressed to admit any sort of feeling towards them unless they were under extreme stress.

Did you see how I mentioned relatively strong Si?

No, I didn't at first... but that makes more sense now. Si could lead to organization of the environment, but how do you explain their ability to deal with abstract order?

Haha, again you are referring to the writings of Virlomi? I think I did a fairly good case for INTPs being one of the best types at grammar and spelling. You seem to forget it is on average the type with the highest IQ. Sorry, but your prejudices seem to mislead you. But even if her order is relatively high for her type, it might be explained by her relatively strong Si. Conlusion is therefore that Virlomi is an INTP with a strong tertiary Si.

I wasn't talking about grammar/spelling, which we had already addressed. I was talking about paragraph organization and topic contiguity. That's a completely different subject.

Splittet

12-15-2007, 11:01 PM

INTJ would have tertiary Fi, and INTP would have Inferior Fe. So it would be reasonable for an INTJ to have friends they love/value tremendously, but it would be really hard for an INTP to make the same admission (Inferior Fe). They might have friends they spend time with to pursue particular interests, but they would be hard-pressed to admit any sort of feeling towards them unless they were under extreme stress.

Practically I do not think the differences will be large. My guess would also be female INTPs would probably value their friends more, on average, than their male counterparts. And I mean, who doesn't value their friends? Extremely few. Also I feel you generalise too much, be open to exceptions.

I wasn't talking about grammar/spelling, which we had already addressed. I was talking about paragraph organization and topic contiguity. That's a completely different subject.

I do think you read too much into very little. Also note clarity is the essence of Ti, and doesn't clarity go well with especially topic contiguity? Writing style will vary between INTPs, as it will vary among all types, but do not be surprised if the INTP type is one of the P types most ordered in their writing, because they are always striving for clarity. Also, someone that seems to write very clearly, might give the false impression of writing in a structured manner.

Sorry if I sound harsh. I appreciate your humble nature, it gives a good climate for discussion, which is something I suck at.

Athenian200

12-15-2007, 11:50 PM

Practically I do not think the differences will be large. My guess would also be female INTPs would probably value their friends more, on average, than their male counterparts. And I mean, who doesn't value their friends? Extremely few. Also I feel you generalize too much, be open to exceptions.

Okay, fine. I think most people value their friends, but I would assume someone with inferior F wouldn't be aware of valuing their friends, or would be ashamed to value them. I imagine that unlike tertiary or higher F's, they would be ashamed of any illogical preferences they had.

But I don't agree that female INTP's value their friends more. They might express it more, or be more willing to admit it, but I don't think the actual level of "value" is higher. It think it just seems like they value their friends more, rather than that they actually do value them more.

I do think you read too much into very little. Also note clarity is the essence of Ti, and doesn't clarity go well with especially topic contiguity? Writing style will vary between INTPs, as it will vary among all types, but do not be surprised if the INTP type is one of the P types most ordered in their writing, because they are always striving for clarity. Also, someone that seems to write very clearly, might give the false impression of writing in a structured manner.

In my opinion, Ti is clarity of understanding, not clarity of expression.

Sorry if I sound harsh. I appreciate your humble nature, it gives a good climate for discussion, which is something I suck at.

Oh, I didn't mind at all. Thanks. I prefer to have someone tell me what they think of my ideas so I can get a better sense of what might be wrong with them.

Splittet

12-15-2007, 11:58 PM

Okay, fine. I think most people value their friends, but I would assume someone with inferior F wouldn't be aware of valuing their friends, or would be ashamed to value them. I imagine that unlike tertiary or higher F's, they would be ashamed of any illogical preferences they had.

But I don't agree that female INTP's value their friends more. They might express it more, or be more willing to admit it, but I don't think the actual level of "value" is higher. It think it just seems like they value their friends more, rather than that they actually do value them more.

Okay, the possible difference between the sexes might very well be bullshit, but anyhow, the thought of INTPs feeling ashamed for valuing their friends!? Somehow I doubt many INTPs can confirm that's really how they feel. I think most by far will confirm they appreciate their friends.

In my opinion, Ti is clarity of understanding, not clarity of expression.

There is obviously a lot of variety within the type, but on average, I do think most INTPs express themselves very clearly, much more clearly than the average INTJ, for example. A real life example of this might be the INTP Albert Einstein and INTJ Niels Bohr. Einstein was known for his ability to express his ideas clearly, while Niels Bohr was an infamously bad speaker. Why would I be very surprised if it was the other way around?

MerkW

12-16-2007, 12:19 AM

Liebniz (INTP) vs. Newton (INTJ) is another good example of the difficulty INTJs face in articulating the mysterious world of Ni. Interestingly enough, I suffer from similar problems (even to a greater extent than some INTJs I know, actually), perhaps because by Ni is as strong as my Ne and Ti.

But I am a rather abnormal person.

TenebrousReflection

12-16-2007, 05:56 AM

2. Politeness. INTP's would have a hard time (to say the least) just acting polite all the time. They may be aware enough to not say anything, or just give a minimal, neutral response, but acting "compulsively polite" would not be something they would/could do under normal circumstances. There are times some of them would want to, but it's just not something they can do without a lot of stress.

I agree with this, and its why I asked that question. Virlomi's response to me points to the Fe view of politeness, but a single factor is not something to make the decision on, its just something worth considering before ruling out xxFx of some kind. The other two points you made, I could argue either for or against depending on my mood at the moment. :)

"?"

12-16-2007, 02:00 PM

Politeness might be due to her relatively strong Si, or simply due to her gender and cultural influences, or just a combination of all these factors. Not that interesting, really.I disagree Splittet, it is FeExtraverted Feeling - Considering others and responding to them. The extraverted Feeling process is used in relation to particular people and situations and so has a more here-and-now quality than a universal, future, or past quality. When particular people are out of our presence or awareness, we can then adjust to new people or situations. This process helps us "grease the wheels" of social interaction. Often, the process of extraverted Feeling seems to involve a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The "social graces" such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Associated behaviors might include remembering birthdays, finding just the right card for a person and selecting a gift based on what a person likes. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them., not Si that calls for politeness. Contrary to erroneous belief on these forums Fi nor Fe is about emotion, but is cognitive. As for Virlomi's true type, I think it would be quite presumptuous of me or anyone to type someone from a forum discussion. Only Virlomi can make that call since I have no idea who the person is.

Splittet

12-16-2007, 05:06 PM

I disagree Splittet, it is Fe, not Si that calls for politeness. Contrary to erroneous belief on these forums Fi nor Fe is about emotion, but is cognitive. As for Virlomi's true type, I think it would be quite presumptuous of me or anyone to type someone from a forum discussion. Only Virlomi can make that call since I have no idea who the person is.

Oh, but I do not disagree. Fe is the main function of politeness, but I think politeness also can come from Si. The reason why I mention it possibly coming from Si in her case was that her Si tested as strong, while her Fe tested as weak. Politeness is something you can see in all the SJ types, and even more in all the FJ types.

"?"

12-16-2007, 09:55 PM

Ummm... I would say either Fe or Fi. I am not sure how you are correlating it with Si from what I understand about the function.

Splittet

12-16-2007, 09:59 PM

Ummm... I would say either Fe or Fi. I am not sure how you are correlating it with Si from what I understand about the function.

It is because Si is very much about tradition, and politeness is very much part of a traditional world view.

MerkW

12-16-2007, 10:04 PM

Ummm... I would say either Fe or Fi. I am not sure how you are correlating it with Si from what I understand about the function.

Si itself isn't politeness per se, however, coupled with Fe, politeness (or perhaps more appropriately etiquette) is in fact the result. Fi is definitely not the root of politeness. Compare xxFPs with xxFJs. It is usually quite obvious that xxFJs are far more polite than xxFPs. As mentioned before, xSTJs can sometimes be a little bit unfeeling, and xNFJs can occasionally be willing to challenge social norms. Thus, xSFJs are the most "polite" types of all.

I could go off on a long tangent about this, but in short, the reason behind this is the fact that while Fe is responsible for outwardly expressed emotion, and Si is responsible for valuing and following pre-established rules and procedures. Since politeness and etiquette are both, in essence, pre-established conventions or rules based off kindness and empathy. Its a somewhat rough correlation, but I myself do indeed believe that Si (and Fe to a lesser degree) is responsible for etiquette and politeness. This is why, for example, INTPs and ENTPs (as well as ISTPs) are often perceived as being unintentionally rude.

Nocap

12-16-2007, 10:09 PM

Ummm... I would say either Fe or Fi. I am not sure how you are correlating it with Si from what I understand about the function.

He means, if Si has branded politeness to itself, then it will manifest even in a STJs. I don't think Fe's natural disposition is toward politeness, but letting the other party know they're appreciated, or loved in an obvious manner. Si will be inclined to things like 'please and thank you' where Fe might rather choose something like sharing their cookies with someone else because they're sick, or giving a classroom of 1st graders popcorn for good behavior. Not necessarily Si things.

Just last night I was at one of my mother's ESFJ friends' house. Everyone was playing poker -- actually we weren't really playing, the retard kid (he's actually a retard, I'm not saying that because I hate kids... I don't) was making an absurd amount of noise and I had a headache, so I went all in 'cause I knew I was going to lose it so I could get away from the noise. It worked, except the ESFJ I was talking about said she'd split chips with me. That's Fe, not Si. She wanted me there, because apparently, my presence is appreciated. However if the custom was to give chips to those who lost, or in an analogue, to donate to the charity -- usually without question or real understanding... just because you're SUPPOSED to do it... it's the 'right thing to do' -- then it's Si.