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goodgrief
04-10-2010, 11:08 AM
I consistently score INTJ, and I match the description mostly, but from that description and others it seems if you are an INTJ you are always confident in your ability, able to keep at something and never second guess themselves. But I do a lot. i have social anxiety and often feel down about my own ability to achieve both socially and academically, and I sometimes have so little motivation to do anything. Is this normal or at least an occasional occurence for an INTJ? All the INTJs on here seem a lot mentally stronger than me.

ajblaise
04-10-2010, 11:23 AM
Welcome to introversion.

tcda
04-10-2010, 11:40 AM
An INTJ I know is one of the most self-doubting people I know.

Craft
04-10-2010, 11:42 AM
"Can an INTJ doubt themselves"?


Hm,..let me think.....well ...no. :)

Time
04-10-2010, 11:55 AM
Hmmm, yes. INTJs are human, no?

Oddly Refined
04-10-2010, 11:59 AM
Yes, they can. Perfectionists are hard on themselves.

Jeremy77
04-10-2010, 11:59 AM
I certainly doubt myself in the realm of of personal relationships and interpersonal skills.

ceecee
04-10-2010, 12:36 PM
Yes, they can. Perfectionists are hard on themselves.

I was just coming in to say this. No one can be as hard on us as we are on ourselves. Self-doubt, over-analyzing, second guessing anything relationship related. Not that these things can't be lessened. They can and it takes time but they're always there for us. There are areas I'm supremely confident in and always have been. There are areas I had to put a lot of effort into changing too.

Oddly Refined
04-10-2010, 12:43 PM
I was just coming in to say this. No one can be as hard on us as we are on ourselves. Self-doubt, over-analyzing, second guessing anything relationship related. Not that these things can't be lessened. They can and it takes time but they're always there for us. There are areas I'm supremely confident in and always have been. There are areas I had to put a lot of effort into changing too.

I couldn't agree more.:D

Litvyak
04-10-2010, 12:53 PM
*headdesk*

No, they can't. Superhuman people don't do that.
They fly around, stop meteors, solve the mysteries of the universe during lunchbreak, but self-doubt? Nah.

Metamorphosis
04-13-2010, 03:24 AM
if you are an INTJ you are always confident in your ability, able to keep at something

A large part of the above is because of the below.


and never second guess themselves. But I do a lot.

Aleksei
04-13-2010, 03:31 AM
INTJs are introspective perfectionists, so I would think they second-guess themselves all the time. I have an INTJ friend who does second-guess himself often.

The type least likely to second-guess themselves are probably ESTPs, followed by ENTPs. I for one am most likely to hold an attitude of invincibility, unless experience has bitch-slapped me repeatedly. I do however have a tendency to become nervous and wonder if I chose wrong when I have to make a decision and commit to it.

highlander
04-13-2010, 04:39 AM
Pride goes before a fall. Confidence is good. Overconfidence is not. It is a balance. Personally, I always have doubts. That's what the contingencies are for and the excessive effort to think forward on the things that might go wrong so you can plan to avoid them.

Hubris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris)

There is a strong will, independence and confidence with an INTJ usually. This can also go horribly wrong. Jeffrey Skilling at Enron was probably an INTJ. A more recent example might be Greenspan and deregulation.

Jwill
04-13-2010, 06:00 AM
The key thing about INTJs is that they know what they know and know what they don't know. If I am working in a field that I know a lot about, I very rarely second-guess myself. When I was younger and more socially immature, I second-guessed my relationships and social interactions all the time. Eventually, it got so taxing that I just...stopped. Maybe I put up a mental block about second-guessing social stuff because I got so sick of it...

But no, generally I don't do a lot of self-doubting. I've tried to find ways of coping with the few areas of my personality that I tend to over-criticize. But then, unlike some of the posters on this thread, I'm usually not that hard on myself. It would be like constantly criticizing my best friend. I can't stand putting myself down too often.

Fecal McAngry
04-13-2010, 06:38 AM
I consistently score INTJ, and I match the description mostly, but from that description and others it seems if you are an INTJ you are always confident in your ability, able to keep at something and never second guess themselves. But I do a lot. i have social anxiety and often feel down about my own ability to achieve both socially and academically, and I sometimes have so little motivation to do anything. Is this normal or at least an occasional occurence for an INTJ? All the INTJs on here seem a lot mentally stronger than me.

INTJs "doubt," yes. But more than "doubting," INTJs can be some of the most self-critical, self-flagellating souls around. This is where an INFP comes in hand as an emotional fluffer;)

Here's INTJ David Letterman interviewed by INFJ Charlie Rose:

Charlie Rose - An interview with David Letterman (http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/6364#)

forzen
04-13-2010, 08:16 AM
If anybody can honestly say that he/she hasn't had any doubt then I recommend that person to check his/her pulse because he/she might as well be a robot...


oh wait...

Litvyak
04-13-2010, 08:44 AM
The type least likely to second-guess themselves are probably ESTPs, followed by ENTPs.

... followed by ISTPs, you mean.

ETA: Letterman is ENTJ.

simulatedworld
04-13-2010, 09:23 AM
In some ways Ni doms doubt themselves (and everything) more than any other types.

INTJs are very good at showing a strong, confident exterior--in fact, they want you to think they rarely (if ever) doubt themselves. They like having that image.

When it comes to things they've prepared for and done their homework on, they are extremely confident, but when they're in an uncomfortable/unfamiliar situation they tend to use silence to their advantage. They're not going to let you know how much they do or don't know about the situation, and they know that this often leads people to assume they know a lot more than they do...which they can use to their advantage, of course.

So INTJs are often not as confident as they seem; they just choose not to reveal it when they don't know what's going on.

Aleksei
04-13-2010, 12:17 PM
... followed by ISTPs, you mean.
Maybe... ENTPs are up there, though.

Fecal McAngry
04-13-2010, 05:33 PM
... followed by ISTPs, you mean.

ETA: Letterman is ENTJ.

You have not done your research. DL is a self-defined recluse when not onstage.

Fecal McAngry
04-13-2010, 05:37 PM
Pride goes before a fall. Confidence is good. Overconfidence is not. It is a balance. Personally, I always have doubts. That's what the contingencies are for and the excessive effort to think forward on the things that might go wrong so you can plan to avoid them.

Hubris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris)

There is a strong will, independence and confidence with an INTJ usually. This can also go horribly wrong. Jeffrey Skilling at Enron was probably an INTJ. A more recent example might be Greenspan and deregulation.

Greenspan is absolutely an INTJ, as was his mentor Ayn Rand. The problem with AG wasn't INTJ hubris however, or deregulation, but that he (warning: political philosophy ahead) was manning a system--central banking--that is inherently designed to produce booms and busts...

tcda
04-13-2010, 07:01 PM
Greenspan is absolutely an INTJ, as was his mentor Ayn Rand. The problem with AG wasn't INTJ hubris however, or deregulation, but that he (warning: political philosophy ahead) was manning a system--central banking--that is inherently designed to produce booms and busts...

Not wishing to get off topic but was Ayn Raynd actually Greenspan's mentor?

I find it hard to believe that anyone with AR as a mentor would ever actually be employed by any government anywhere on earth.

Fecal McAngry
04-13-2010, 07:30 PM
Not wishing to get off topic but was Ayn Raynd actually Greenspan's mentor?

I find it hard to believe that anyone with AR as a mentor would ever actually be employed by any government anywhere on earth.
Yes, Ayn loved AG. It is supremely ironic that AG would end up running the Fed; it's like someone training arduously to be a Rabbi for many years and then running off to head the Third Reich...

Alan Greenspan and the Death of Ayn Rand (http://raincoatoptimism.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/alan-greenspan-and-the-death-of-ayn-rand/)

Alan Greenspan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Greenspan)

Aleksei
04-17-2010, 03:02 AM
Who else here thinks Greenspan plowed Ayn Rand?

capricorn009
04-17-2010, 07:18 AM
I'm not sure. Same with ENTJs and the power thing, it seems that some either want power and control of everything, while some simply have power thrust upon them. I
was always considered intellectual and imaginative but my ability to trust my instincts
and go with intuition to learn new skills made me realize being an independent thinker
was a power in its own. Why I resent power because eventually realizing you don't
have to be submissive can cause people to turn on you.

Zarathustra
04-17-2010, 06:29 PM
Pride goes before a fall. Confidence is good. Overconfidence is not. It is a balance. Personally, I always have doubts. That's what the contingencies are for and the excessive effort to think forward on the things that might go wrong so you can plan to avoid them.

Hubris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris)

There is a strong will, independence and confidence with an INTJ usually. This can also go horribly wrong. Jeffrey Skilling at Enron was probably an INTJ. A more recent example might be Greenspan and deregulation.

If Alan Greenspan is an INTJ, he definitely disappoints me. To be so fucking narrow-mindedly obsessed with free market ideology does not seem very worthy of INTJhood, in my opinion. I was a college fucking econ student and I knew his (and the Republican's, in general) borderline obsessive faith in free markets was leading us into disaster. I would like to blame it on Ti and him being an INTP, but I'm really not sure if that's the case. Most everywhere you see him labeled as an INTJ.

As for Schilling -- I was reasonably young when it happened, and the vast majority of my knowledge about him came from that documentary "The Smartest Guys In The Room", so I'm a bit ignorant. I mostly remember his rant about Social Darwinism and how he and his minions were superior to all the "idiots" not working at his firm. Very well could be a retarded INTJ...

goodgrief
04-18-2010, 04:32 AM
If Alan Greenspan is an INTJ, he definitely disappoints me. To be so fucking narrow-mindedly obsessed with free market ideology does not seem very worthy of INTJhood, in my opinion. I was a college fucking econ student and I knew his (and the Republican's, in general) borderline obsessive faith in free markets was leading us into disaster. I would like to blame it on Ti and him being an INTP, but I'm really not sure if that's the case. Most everywhere you see him labeled as an INTJ.

As for Schilling -- I was reasonably young when it happened, and the vast majority of my knowledge about him came from that documentary "The Smartest Guys In The Room", so I'm a bit ignorant. I mostly remember his rant about Social Darwinism and how he and his minions were superior to all the "idiots" not working at his firm. Very well could be a retarded INTJ...

Well I have no idea who this guy is so don't shoot me, but if he's similar to an INTJ, but is narrow minded and putting faith in something illogically, could he be an INFJ? With a strong J?

Rebe
04-18-2010, 04:37 AM
If Alan Greenspan is an INTJ, he definitely disappoints me. To be so fucking narrow-mindedly obsessed with free market ideology does not seem very worthy of INTJhood, in my opinion. I was a college fucking econ student and I knew his (and the Republican's, in general) borderline obsessive faith in free markets was leading us into disaster. I would like to blame it on Ti and him being an INTP, but I'm really not sure if that's the case. Most everywhere you see him labeled as an INTJ.

I thought Ayn Rand is a clear INTJ? All the INTJs I know worships her, absolutely worships her.

Aleksei
04-18-2010, 04:40 AM
I know at least one INTJ who thinks (correctly I might add) that she was retarded.

Rebe
04-18-2010, 05:00 AM
An INTJ told me to read one of her books - good writing skills - the content annoyed me...a lot. She could be ENTJ...possibly...

themightybob
04-18-2010, 05:35 AM
I dont agree with Rand in many ways and i certainly dont worship her. She is the epitome of an unhealthy, self-serving intj.

Aleksei
04-18-2010, 06:23 AM
Are INTJs even physically capable of not being self-serving?

SmileyMan
04-18-2010, 12:26 PM
Are INTJs even physically capable of not being self-serving?

Is anyone?

WordGeek
04-18-2010, 06:15 PM
I was just coming in to say this. No one can be as hard on us as we are on ourselves. Self-doubt, over-analyzing, second guessing anything relationship related. Not that these things can't be lessened. They can and it takes time but they're always there for us. There are areas I'm supremely confident in and always have been. There are areas I had to put a lot of effort into changing too.

Absolutely agree. Self-doubt and over-analyzing (and I don't think it is only personal relationships) are probably what helps INTJ's put things in perspective to everyting else. Strangely enough, most people only seem to perceive self-confidence or arrogance, where there might be self-doubt. The better you learn to cope with it (and I don't think I every fully will) the better.

Aleksei
04-18-2010, 09:01 PM
Is anyone?
People jump on grenades to save others, so I'd say yes.

Little_Sticks
04-18-2010, 09:16 PM
People jump on grenades to save others, so I'd say yes.

If throwing the grenade back or finding a way to keep the group from getting grenades thrown at them to begin with instead of jumping on a grenade in the spur of the moment means INTJs are self-serving then...you know what I'm not even going to finish that.

SmileyMan
04-18-2010, 09:21 PM
People jump on grenades to save others, so I'd say yes.

Because they couldn't live with themselves had they not done so.

Aleksei
04-18-2010, 10:08 PM
If throwing the grenade back or finding a way to keep the group from getting grenades thrown at them to begin with instead of jumping on a grenade in the spur of the moment means INTJs are self-serving then...you know what I'm not even going to finish that.
Don't worry I'm not passing judgment. I'm no better, nor are most NTs. ;)

neptunesnet
04-19-2010, 03:03 AM
If Alan Greenspan is an INTJ, he definitely disappoints me. To be so fucking narrow-mindedly obsessed with free market ideology does not seem very worthy of INTJhood, in my opinion. I was a college fucking econ student and I knew his (and the Republican's, in general) borderline obsessive faith in free markets was leading us into disaster.

Type has nothing to do with an individual's personal political philosophy (what alliteration) or intelligence. Actually, in some ways, it would make sense that some INTJs like Greenspan are free market advocators (although I personally disagree with) and that they have an obsessive, almost child-like obstinacy to obtain that system. Sounds like under-developed Fi, which is common in the tertiary spot (see ENTPs and tert Fe). It's much of the reason why INTJs in general are rather hit or miss for me. Their Fi is either completely under-developed, developing, or so fine-tuned they confuse themselves for INFPs :)


I would like to blame it on Ti and him being an INTP, but I'm really not sure if that's the case. Most everywhere you see him labeled as an INTJ.

Function doesn't explain behavior. It would similar to my saying, for example, that every time I look at the social interaction objectively and promote social harmony I'm using Fe even though that's obviously not the case.


I mostly remember his rant about Social Darwinism and how he and his minions were superior to all the "idiots" not working at his firm. Very well could be a retarded INTJ...

Or just an INTJ who happens to be a self-serving, hypocritical bastard. He isn't any more the exception to his type than the most intelligent INTJs are the norm.


EDIT: @theOP - Like most posters here have said, yes INTJs can doubt themselves. In fact, some of them can be the most critical and judgmental of themselves. However, I think enneatype has a lot to do with how that is manifests in the individual and to what degree they do it.

goodgrief
04-19-2010, 03:07 AM
Or just an INTJ who happens to be a self-serving, hypocritical bastard. He isn't any more the exception to his type than the most intelligent INTJs are the norm.

I take offense to that.

neptunesnet
04-19-2010, 03:12 AM
I take offense to that.

Which part?

If you're an intelligent INTJ then you're an intelligent INTJ. It doesn't mean they all are. Same with INFPs. If one is a continual stream of bunnies and rainbows and sunshine it doesn't mean we all are.

Aleksei
04-19-2010, 03:12 AM
Type has nothing to do with an individual's personal political philosophy (what alliteration) or intelligence.
Type is statistically correlated with both. My guess is it tangentially influences political orientation, and in turn is influenced by intelligence.

On not all INTJs being intelligent, so far evidence shows they all are. INTJ is the highest-ranked type for IQ, and two-thirds of Americans above two standard deviations (126 IQ points) are INTJ. I have not myself met an INTJ not of above-average intelligence.

goodgrief
04-19-2010, 03:15 AM
Which part?

If you're an intelligent INTJ then you're an intelligent INTJ. It doesn't mean they all are. Same with INFPs. If one is a continual stream of bunnies and rainbows and sunshine it doesn't mean we all are.

Oh wait, sorry. I misread your post. I thought you said that the most intelligent INTJs being self serving hypocritical bastards was the norm.

neptunesnet
04-19-2010, 04:57 AM
Type is statistically correlated with both. My guess is it tangentially influences political orientation, and in turn is influenced by intelligence.

On not all INTJs being intelligent, so far evidence shows they all are. INTJ is the highest-ranked type for IQ, and two-thirds of Americans above two standard deviations (126 IQ points) are INTJ. I have not myself met an INTJ not of above-average intelligence.

Really? I didn't think there was any substantive or empirical evidence that could properly support most typological claims in correlating, say, type and intelligence or type and cultural impact or type and predisposition to certain medical conditions, etc. What statistics are you referring to, exactly? I'm curious.

Also, I believe in quantitative intelligence about as much as I believe in unicorns*.

*I realize that I may have to eat my words for making such a facetious statement. Especially in the NT Rationale.

goodgrief
04-19-2010, 07:34 AM
Really? I didn't think there was any substantive or empirical evidence that could properly support most typological claims in correlating, say, type and intelligence or type and cultural impact or type and predisposition to certain medical conditions, etc. What statistics are you referring to, exactly? I'm curious.

Also, I believe in quantitative intelligence about as much as I believe in unicorns*.

*I realize that I may have to eat my words for making such a facetious statement. Especially in the NT Rationale.

I myself have read stuff about this, and while I don't think it's "you are this type so you must be so and so intelligent" there are trends. Apparently the mots important thing is Intuition over perceiving, then Introversion over extroversion and Thinking over feeling, then judging over percieving. While these may not actually be base determinants of ones intelligence (except maybe intuition because it is all about generating thoughts, noticing patterns and abstract thinking) they do contribute to a tendency to plan and think logically to help in the learning process. This is just from what I've read on other parts of this forum, so some info could just be opinion, but it seems to make sense.

Aleksei
04-19-2010, 05:41 PM
Really? I didn't think there was any substantive or empirical evidence that could properly support most typological claims in correlating, say, type and intelligence or type and cultural impact or type and predisposition to certain medical conditions, etc. What statistics are you referring to, exactly? I'm curious.

Also, I believe in quantitative intelligence about as much as I believe in unicorns*.

*I realize that I may have to eat my words for making such a facetious statement. Especially in the NT Rationale.
Intelligence and Jung types (http://www.opra.co.nz/images/opra/pdf/community/Articles/intelligence%20in%20relation%20to%20jti.pdf)

This one (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14531784) contains the raw data, but it isn't available to the public.

On politics and MBTI I don't know if there's been a formal study on the subject, but I did do some casual research on it on a political forum I frequent. Found a strong correlation between T/F and left/right, but no particular correlation otherwise, and of particular interest I found no correlation between the left/right balance and MBTI/IQ flow, which means politics probably aren't affected by intelligence.

On the correlation between MBTI and mental disease, I couldn't find the studies at the moment, but I know some have been made. Off the top of my head I could tell you that NTs are most likely to develop Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Rest assured, intelligence is real, and it is quantifiable. If you don't believe me, try explaining the technical aspects of entanglement theory to, say, your average McDonald's employee.

Mr.Time
04-21-2010, 06:45 AM
Can an INTJ not doubt themselves?

simulatedworld
04-21-2010, 07:44 AM
Can an INTJ not doubt themselves?

this!

goodgrief
04-21-2010, 08:54 AM
Intelligence and Jung types (http://www.opra.co.nz/images/opra/pdf/community/Articles/intelligence%20in%20relation%20to%20jti.pdf)

[URL="http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14531784"]On the correlation between MBTI and mental disease, I couldn't find the studies at the moment, but I know some have been made. Off the top of my head I could tell you that NTs are most likely to develop Antisocial Personality Disorder.


Aspergers mostly for IT.

Coriolis
04-21-2010, 05:49 PM
When it comes to things they've prepared for and done their homework on, they are extremely confident, but when they're in an uncomfortable/unfamiliar situation they tend to use silence to their advantage. They're not going to let you know how much they do or don't know about the situation, and they know that this often leads people to assume they know a lot more than they do...which they can use to their advantage, of course.

So INTJs are often not as confident as they seem; they just choose not to reveal it when they don't know what's going on.
Well stated, as is the above message 14 by JWill. The big exception for me is an explicit learning situation. I will readily admit my ignorance to someone in a position to teach me something I wish to learn. I do, however, try to avoid situations that are both uncomfortable/unfamiliar and of no use or interest to me. This seems to maximize efficiency while minimizing stress.

Lethe
04-22-2010, 12:01 AM
All the INTJs on here seem a lot mentally stronger than me.

There's a key word: seem. ;)


In some ways Ni doms doubt themselves (and everything) more than any other types.

INTJs are very good at showing a strong, confident exterior [...].

Agreed. (To goodgrief, or anyone reading this post), even when I'm extremely nervous, I always appear confident in front of a crowd, and to other strangers. Beyond my individual doubts, I value being decisive, assertive, and proactive --- attributes that allow me to organize my environment. I dislike influencing the external world with indecision, so I generally accept my limited capacity for the said activity, move on, and learn what I can from the situation.

However, confront me during my introspective moments, and you'll find that I second-guess thoughts very frequently. Perhaps this is the downside of seeing multiple interpretations of everything, and the desire to integrate different viewpoints into a model. Suddenly, I'll change from a self-controlled being to the most doubtful, and confused person in the room. ;) It reverts back when I have to get things done, and there's no time to over-analyze every possible flaw -- only for mindful action and keen adaptability.


I consistently score INTJ, and I match the description mostly, but from that description and others it seems if you are an INTJ you are always confident in your ability, able to keep at something and never second guess themselves. But I do a lot. i have social anxiety and often feel down about my own ability to achieve both socially and academically, and I sometimes have so little motivation to do anything. Is this normal or at least an occasional occurrence for an INTJ?

On some levels, goodgrief, your troubles with the academia strongly reminds me of my own, but at one point, the question of "So what? What are you going to do about it?" arises. I'm also naturally blessed with the grace of an elephant when it comes to socializing, and the worst case of ADHD for paying attention and completing dull tasks. It seems like events would turn out rather colorful from the start, and the challenges I happen to encounter did not disappoint expectations: at 15, I pretty much failed in everything I touched, except for 'on-the-side' obscure interests. And unfortunately, I didn't have the communication skills to explain my sudden change in attitude -- which started soon after the realization that I severely lacked the some of the most vital traits in this society.

Getting by on a daily basis was not easy, like you, I had little motivation to do anything beyond things that weren't immediately relevant to society's idea of 'success'. I simply wanted to figure out what life meant for me, and to explore the extent of my mind and values. Everyone thought I was wasting my parent's time and money on introspection, and a part of myself had agreed with them, but subconsciously, I knew I couldn't go down that path anymore. For the next two years, a battle of two inner wills drove me up the wall, causing me to become mistrustful of my "softer", dreamier judgment.

Fast-forward six years later to age 21: every failure, achievement, skill, characteristic, knowledge and wisdom I had began to crystallize into a more global perspective, allowing me to overcome previous difficulties with relative ease. I use my advantages to offset the disadvantages, synthesized opposing personalities, and forced myself to cooperate with the lazier, slower voice, or whatever my ambitious self likes calling it. And the thing is, it works. Very well. Just don't give up -- even when you fail (trust me, this will occur a lot in the beginning). Then proceed to practice your weaker attributes like hell with the intention of getting better each time. Optimize your strategies and tactics whenever you can, preferably with the help of numerous references.

....

Looking back now, I sometimes think we place too much importance on bemoaning and criticizing the abilities we don't have, instead of aiming to improve them by following our natural rhythm and needs (however "strange" they may be). If I had to redo the last six years, I'd say this to myself: "Self, you're weird compared to most you know. Maybe even a little nuts. You have different desires, and there's no point in trying to jam yourself into a conventional system, thinking that's the only way to personal achievement. So let's look outside of the box. What can you possibly do to synchronize your current skills and tendencies to your goals? Don't discard your quirks [ahem, like ADHD], use them. If you can figure out the critical elements and its formula, I swear you'll nail them down cold."

======

TL;DR version: Many skills are improvable, if you're willing to dedicate the energy to make them work. :cheese: Everyone has their problems and times where their "strengths" undermine their best intentions, yet understanding that potential and incorporating those benefits into one's long-term strategy is what moves a person forward.

Furthermore, you can't possibly be worse than someone who has earned academic probation/suspension at 3 schools for three years, performed every single procrastinating technique known to mankind, and holds arguably the worst attendance record in high school. There's still a great deal you can change right now, step by step. If someone with an unpredictable attention-span and poor social skills can turn their act around by 180 degrees, you can too. :yes:

No magic required, honest. :D Only faith in yourself, smart training, and being resourceful. It took me six years to learn how to command my ADHD and three to socialize. Perhaps you could do much better. :newwink: If you want help or additional tips, PM me. I know practically everything about there is to know about failing, concentration, and motivation.

Rainne
04-22-2010, 12:13 AM
well intjs are human

or are they...

:ninja:

goodgrief
04-22-2010, 09:48 AM
There's a key word: seem. ;)



Agreed. (To goodgrief, or anyone reading this post), even when I'm extremely nervous, I always appear confident in front of a crowd, and to other strangers. Beyond my individual doubts, I value being decisive, assertive, and proactive --- attributes that allow me to organize my environment. I dislike influencing the external world with indecision, so I generally accept my limited capacity for the said activity, move on, and learn what I can from the situation.

However, confront me during my introspective moments, and you'll find that I second-guess thoughts very frequently. Perhaps this is the downside of seeing multiple interpretations of everything, and the desire to integrate different viewpoints into a model. Suddenly, I'll change from a self-controlled being to the most doubtful, and confused person in the room. ;) It reverts back when I have to get things done, and there's no time to over-analyze every possible flaw -- only for mindful action and keen adaptability.



On some levels, goodgrief, your troubles with the academia strongly reminds me of my own, but at one point, the question of "So what? What are you going to do about it?" arises. I'm also naturally blessed with the grace of an elephant when it comes to socializing, and the worst case of ADHD for paying attention and completing dull tasks. It seems like events would turn out rather colorful from the start, and the challenges I happen to encounter did not disappoint expectations: at 15, I pretty much failed in everything I touched, except for 'on-the-side' obscure interests. And unfortunately, I didn't have the communication skills to explain my sudden change in attitude -- which started soon after the realization that I severely lacked the some of the most vital traits in this society.

Getting by on a daily basis was not easy, like you, I had little motivation to do anything beyond things that weren't immediately relevant to society's idea of 'success'. I simply wanted to figure out what life meant for me, and to explore the extent of my mind and values. Everyone thought I was wasting my parent's time and money on introspection, and a part of myself had agreed with them, but subconsciously, I knew I couldn't go down that path anymore. For the next two years, a battle of two inner wills drove me up the wall, causing me to become mistrustful of my "softer", dreamier judgment.

Fast-forward six years later to age 21: every failure, achievement, skill, characteristic, knowledge and wisdom I had began to crystallize into a more global perspective, allowing me to overcome previous difficulties with relative ease. I use my advantages to offset the disadvantages, synthesized opposing personalities, and forced myself to cooperate with the lazier, slower voice, or whatever my ambitious self likes calling it. And the thing is, it works. Very well. Just don't give up -- even when you fail (trust me, this will occur a lot in the beginning). Then proceed to practice your weaker attributes like hell with the intention of getting better each time. Optimize your strategies and tactics whenever you can, preferably with the help of numerous references.

....

Looking back now, I sometimes think we place too much importance on bemoaning and criticizing the abilities we don't have, instead of aiming to improve them by following our natural rhythm and needs (however "strange" they may be). If I had to redo the last six years, I'd say this to myself: "Self, you're weird compared to most you know. Maybe even a little nuts. You have different desires, and there's no point in trying to jam yourself into a conventional system, thinking that's the only way to personal achievement. So let's look outside of the box. What can you possibly do to synchronize your current skills and tendencies to your goals? Don't discard your quirks [ahem, like ADHD], use them. If you can figure out the critical elements and its formula, I swear you'll nail them down cold."

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TL;DR version: Many skills are improvable, if you're willing to dedicate the energy to make them work. :cheese: Everyone has their problems and times where their "strengths" undermine their best intentions, yet understanding that potential and incorporating those benefits into one's long-term strategy is what moves a person forward.

Furthermore, you can't possibly be worse than someone who has earned academic probation/suspension at 3 schools for three years, performed every single procrastinating technique known to mankind, and holds arguably the worst attendance record in high school. There's still a great deal you can change right now, step by step. If someone with an unpredictable attention-span and poor social skills can turn their act around by 180 degrees, you can too. :yes:

No magic required, honest. :D Only faith in yourself, smart training, and being resourceful. It took me six years to learn how to command my ADHD and three to socialize. Perhaps you could do much better. :newwink: If you want help or additional tips, PM me. I know practically everything about there is to know about failing, concentration, and motivation.

Thanks. This is probably the most helpful post I've ever read. I do share many of these problems that you have as well, such as ADHD (predominantly innatentive) and this is very comforting information to know.

Antisocial one
04-25-2010, 09:55 AM
To be honest I don't think that INTJs are really that much self confidant as they look. It is just that in most cases they blindly do what their Ni tells them to do. However since Ni is often correct about things INTJs looks so self confidant.

Actually I have a problem taking a credit for some things that I have done since it isn't that I come up with this or that willingly. It just that many things came to me out of no where so I simply apply them if possible.


Can anyone relate ?

Coriolis
04-26-2010, 01:14 AM
Actually I have a problem taking a credit for some things that I have done since it isn't that I come up with this or that willingly. It just that many things came to me out of no where so I simply apply them if possible.

Can anyone relate ?
To me, credit is often beside the point. I know it is important to many people, so I do my best to ensure others get the credit they deserve. It is enough for me to see the things I do succeed, to see my ideas put into practice. I would rather have my good idea implemented but someone else get the credit, than receive praise for doing something I consider foolish or ill-advised. I have, in fact, occasionally engineered the first case and unfortunately endured the second.