Sudden Ni/Ne bewilderment...

[tovlo]

I have always been a tough MBTI type case, sitting on the INFP/INFJ cusp for most of my MBTI awareness. ENFP is also often offered in the mix, but always dismissed because of what feels my clear introversion.

However, tonight I'm suddenly wondering about something related to Ne and Ni. I took the coginitive functions test which put me with Ne as my top function--which is actually typical (usually it's Ne or Fi).

I settled on my INFJ type based on the regular closeness of my MBTI INFP/INFJ scores (I type close to the border with INFJ often coming up as my type and Ni and Fe always near the top in cognitive function tests), but primarily on an exploration of the functions where I identified Ni as my hero or dominant function.

Part of that Ni dominant identification was recognition of the large role my ability to see things from a number of different perspective vantage points has played throughout my life. It has repeatedly allowed me to re-envision my life situations and find new ways to engage when things become difficult. It has garnered me admiration and gratefulness from friends who express appreciation for my ability to give them new insights into their own situations.

I really thought this trait was Ni. I've heared INFJ's here describe what I thought was that sort of perspective shifting and it reinforced to me the idea that this ability to see things from many different angles was Ni.

I have however always lacked the certain definiteness and forcefulness pushing me into social action that is often described as INFJ. I have in the past attributed this difference from typical INFJ description to my closeness on the INFP/J scale and a strong use of Ne offsetting the more obvious manifestations of Ni.

I am most often stalled from definitive and forceful action because I can see many valid options and barrelling in on one as if it's the only valid possibility seems imprudent and inauthentic to me when I value any of the other options as just as useful generally. The specific validity of an option to me depends only on the circumstances of the particular situation. When I make a decision and move forward with a sense of conviction it is usually because I have taken all those valid options and turned inward evaluating which one seems to match my own situational needs most closely. It becomes the most valid option for me at that particular time. It is with this recognition that I then have the drive to move forward without letting external detractions derail me.

When offering perspectives to other people I tend to offer them without pushing for implementation. I see my outside perspective as less valuable for evaluating the specific usefulness of any perspective for someone else than that person's own internal assessment. I see my useful role as to offer things for consideration and then I remove myself to the role of observer and supporter in the process because I see them as knowing better than I could what tool will best suit their needs. At that point, my main goal is to encourage them to trust their own sense of what is the right for them and to celebrate their decisions with them.

Is this Ne and Fi?

I'm suddenly confused.

I do seem to process differently in many ways from INFP's I've encountered and I've felt more resonance with the described experience of INFJ's. I feel comfortable when things have closure and seem to lack a comfort with ambiguity that many INFP's seem to possess.

Here are the Ne and Ni descriptions from the cognitive functions site:

Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts. Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand. Using this process we can really appreciate brainstorming and trust what emerges, enjoying imaginative play with scenarios and combining possibilities, using a kind of cross-contextual thinking. Extraverted iNtuiting also can involve catalyzing people and extemporaneously shaping situations, spreading an atmosphere of change through emergent leadership.

Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level. Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us. A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden “Aha!” or “That’s it!” The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. Using this process, we might rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict, enlighten, or transform. We could find ourselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs. This process can involve working out complex concepts or systems of thinking or conceiving of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal. It can lead to creating transcendent experiences or solutions.

I'm suddenly wondering if the Ne description actually fits most closely with the perspective shifting I experience and I'm feeling a new sense of confusion with the Ni description.

Can I get some INFP and INFJ (or ENFP or any other type) feedback on how you see my process matching or not matching yours and also your sense of resonance with either the Ne and Ni descriptions quoted here?

Thanks.

[arcticangel02]

I am most often stalled from definitive and forceful action because I can see many valid options and barrelling in on one as if it's the only valid possibility seems imprudent and inauthentic to me when I value any of the other options as just as useful generally. The specific validity of an option to me depends only on the circumstances of the particular situation. When I make a decision and move forward with a sense of conviction it is usually because I have taken all those valid options and turned inward evaluating which one seems to match my own situational needs most closely. It becomes the most valid option for me at that particular time. It is with this recognition that I then have the drive to move forward without letting external detractions derail me.

When offering perspectives to other people I tend to offer them without pushing for implementation. I see my outside perspective as less valuable for evaluating the specific usefulness of any perspective for someone else than that person's own internal assessment. I see my useful role as to offer things for consideration and then I remove myself to the role of observer and supporter in the process because I see them as knowing better than I could what tool will best suit their needs. At that point, my main goal is to encourage them to trust their own sense of what is the right for them and to celebrate their decisions with them.

Is this Ne and Fi?

This sounds very much like what I do, so from that I would say that it would be very likely Ne and Fi in play.

[Athenian200]

I think that the Ni descriptions are inadequate, and actually include a lot of the Ne descriptions.

But I will say that I find INFP's give off a certain "vibe" that either repels and disgusts me completely, or makes me think they're wonderful people (sometimes the same person at different times).

With other INFJ's... it seems to be more "normal/open," and so I think for that reason that you're probably an INFJ... you don't have that overly intense, discomfiting vibe, but seem to have more a gentle curiosity/concern.

[Jennifer]

In terms of how they enact values, sometimes it's very difficult for me to articulate the difference between INFP and INFJ. I can sense it -- INFPs tend to feel warmly engaged with me but in someways I feel like they are judgmental underneath and perhaps not telling me everything, INFJs tend to feel cooler and might have a lot of practical opinion on the surface but are less judgmental underneath. INFP also tends to play out as easier-going,

The description of Ne has to be considered in a secondary position, not in a primary position as the description seems to be. Outwardly I do use Ne a lot and "hint" at things and possibilities. When I talk to people I am usually springboarding around and looking for all the connection and seeing if someone responds in kind. But it is not the primary. Underneath, it's not as if all things are "possibly true" -- because the judging function is in charge. I usually am shifting around on a mission, because I have an idea of what is true and I am checking the possibilities to see if in fact that idea pans out as "possible." The inner theory is driving the search; and for an INFP, then, wouldn't the inner value system be driving their search? So they are looking for and interpreting possibilities always in context of their inner value system. Either things match up or they don't, and either the value is tweaked or the possibilities are discarded.

The INFJ on the surface looks more rigid, with particular ways to do things (the effects of Fe) -- there is a particular way to treat people, behave in a situation, certain needs that must realistically always be dealt with -- but underneath they seem more flexible. As long as the outer rules aren't broken, or if the outer rules can be stretched to accommodate the inner possibilities, then something is okay even if it doesn't match the INFJ's personal preferences. They can see things from another point of view.

The INFP tends to express things more loosely on the surface and sound less sure than they are, until you cross a line and suddenly the judgment springs out. They are Ne'ing and dancing around rather carefree otherwise.

The INFJ doesn't show as much N in the outer world. Inside is where all the intuition plays out, where they change their way of seeing a situation. Outwardly, where the Ne person is playing, the INFJ is more controlled and focused and anchored; it is inside where the shift and dancing around is occurring, so that one can reorient the way he or she views something.

[cascadeco]

The INFJ on the surface looks more rigid, with particular ways to do things (the effects of Fe) -- there is a particular way to treat people, behave in a situation, certain needs that must realistically always be dealt with -- but underneath they seem more flexible. As long as the outer rules aren't broken, or if the outer rules can be stretched to accommodate the inner possibilities, then something is okay even if it doesn't match the INFJ's personal preferences. They can see things from another point of view.

The INFJ doesn't show as much N in the outer world. Inside is where all the intuition plays out, where they change their way of seeing a situation. Outwardly, where the Ne person is playing, the INFJ is more controlled and focused and anchored; it is inside where the shift and dancing around is occurring, so that one can reorient the way he or she views something.

I can personally relate to these comments, especially the bolded section. Jennifer, for not being an INFJ, you describe it well! (at least my experience)

And tovlo (hi!) - I can relate to this -

I am most often stalled from definitive and forceful action because I can see many valid options and barrelling in on one as if it's the only valid possibility seems imprudent and inauthentic to me when I value any of the other options as just as useful generally. The specific validity of an option to me depends only on the circumstances of the particular situation. When I make a decision and move forward with a sense of conviction it is usually because I have taken all those valid options and turned inward evaluating which one seems to match my own situational needs most closely. It becomes the most valid option for me at that particular time. It is with this recognition that I then have the drive to move forward without letting external detractions derail me.

It can be a very lengthy process for me to mull over and analyze all of the various options, but once I've gone through that lengthy internal process, and come to a definitive 'conclusion' or 'route' to take, I can then move forward with certainty.

[nightning]

Tovlo: I feel for you... I think both of us are on the same boat. I'm also borderline when it comes to J/P. I'm fairly certain I am Ni dominant, however I seem to also like using Ne... more than Fe which is surprising, however Fi is low. People I interact with say I give the outward appearance of a J, however I personally feel I am very reluctant in making decisions and prefer openness.

However, tonight I'm suddenly wondering about something related to Ne and Ni. I took the coginitive functions test which put me with Ne as my top function--which is actually typical (usually it's Ne or Fi).

...

Part of that Ni dominant identification was recognition of the large role my ability to see things from a number of different perspective vantage points has played throughout my life. It has repeatedly allowed me to re-envision my life situations and find new ways to engage when things become difficult. It has garnered me admiration and gratefulness from friends who express appreciation for my ability to give them new insights into their own situations.

*nods* That's what I believe Ni is. However Ni and Ne to me seems so closely related... I've never been able to tell them apart with certainty. One thing I struggled with myself is determining to what extent is my intuition Ne. Some signs are obvious. For example, I am rather visually orientated. Often times I noticed patterns in the things I see and I immediately think of how that can be applied in something else usually in art and design.

Ne, Ni... does it matter? I was looking at the Nostale UK redesign flash site. The scrolling image... trying to figure out how the scripting works... when I realized it doesn't just scroll. It actually consists of 5 different layers scrolling at different speeds. And that gives the illusion of depth and perspective. The next image in my mind was to rotate that 90 degrees and scroll up right... image of bouncing waves and land at a distance. Reflecting back on that line of thought, I realize I was using Ne Ti. Actually I've given it quite a bit of thought... Under "normal" circumstances, I am Ni Fe dominant. But when I am dealing with graphics, web design, fine art related areas... I become Ne dominant, with a touch of Ti as support. Here's another example... Sitting on a bench at a bus stop late at night, I started noticing the multiple shadows casted by street lights. Each at a slightly different angle and different intensity... therefore you get an overlay of multiple shapes that are very similar to one another, forming a pattern on the ground. It made me think about utilizing that idea in a design. The process is very Ne related... however I seldom think about these patterns other than in art.

At what point did Ni took over from Ne? Or was the whole process Ne? I cannot determine at all. Both are too deeply ingrained in me.


I am most often stalled from definitive and forceful action because I can see many valid options and barrelling in on one as if it's the only valid possibility seems imprudent and inauthentic to me when I value any of the other options as just as useful generally. ... It becomes the most valid option for me at that particular time. It is with this recognition that I then have the drive to move forward without letting external detractions derail me.
Sometimes I wonder whether a very insecure INFJ might act like an INFP... (inability to chose despite wanting closure) or if it's just what happens when you fall on the J/P cusp. Then there's another part of my mind that asks does it truly matter whether you are an INFJ or an INFP. The label should only be there to help you understand yourself. It shouldn't dictate who you are. MBTI is afterall only a theory.

This came to my mind: Wanting the accurate label is J, wanting to fully understand self (whether you're a J or a P doesn't matter) is P. Which do you identify with more?


When offering perspectives to other people I tend to offer them without pushing for implementation. I see my outside perspective as less valuable for evaluating the specific usefulness of any perspective for someone else than that person's own internal assessment. I see my useful role as to offer things for consideration and then I remove myself to the role of observer and supporter in the process because I see them as knowing better than I could what tool will best suit their needs. At that point, my main goal is to encourage them to trust their own sense of what is the right for them and to celebrate their decisions with them.

Is this Ne and Fi?
I don't know if that's Ne Fi or just Ni working by itself. What do I mean by that? Well the nature of Ni provides multiple perspective. INFJs tend to pursuit an ideal world where everybody can self-actualize. However for that to happen, you must let the other person decide for themselves what is it that they wanted.

I identify with the following:

Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means.
It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. - Curious, perhaps I didn't quite understand the difference between Ni and Ne afterall... I've always thought the ability to accept seemingly contradictory ideas together as Ni. For when I do that, I tend to distance myself from the object and just observe. How one thing can be true from one perspective and another in an alternate one.
This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts. Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand. - You don't know what the answer is until you thought it out. Again, I cannot tell if this is restricted to Ne. I frequently ask "What if"? I've seen other INXJs ask the same... so is it more related to the N in general?
Using this process we can really appreciate brainstorming and trust what emerges, enjoying imaginative play with scenarios and combining possibilities, using a kind of cross-contextual thinking. - Here is where I differ from the description. Brainstorming to me are possibilities. I appreciate them for generating new ideas, but I do not fully trust them. As in there can be flaws in brainstorming... and I have to sift through the ideas before using the outcomes.


Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level.
Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us. A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden “Aha!” or “That’s it!” - This I can fully embrace as a part of me. It's a synthesis of all ideas together as a whole by drawing on pre-existing ideas and patterns.
The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. I get notions of what might happen, but I'm hampered by the thought of "what if this analysis is incorrect? what if I've missed something important?"

In short, the only major difference between the two I found was in the method of engagement. Ni involves drawing the idea into yourself and throwing what you know at it to see what sticks. Ne is the same process but instead of playing with it inside your mind, you toss the ball at other people and watch how the interact with it in order to see new patterns. I find myself doing both, but Ni dominants over Ne simply because I'm introverted... and thus am less inclined to deliberately go out to find people to bounce ideas off of when I can just use my mind.

Perhaps this thread might help you: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-enneagram-other-personality-matrices/2015-nature-ne-metaphorical-visual.html

[anii]

Hey Miss t - ;)

Here's my take...


Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts. Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand. Using this process we can really appreciate brainstorming and trust what emerges, enjoying imaginative play with scenarios and combining possibilities, using a kind of cross-contextual thinking. Extraverted iNtuiting also can involve catalyzing people and extemporaneously shaping situations, spreading an atmosphere of change through emergent leadership.

All I can say is, this description, especially the bolded parts, feels very familiar to how I operate.


Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level. Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us. A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden “Aha!” or “That’s it!” The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. Using this process, we might rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict, enlighten, or transform. We could find ourselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs. This process can involve working out complex concepts or systems of thinking or conceiving of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal. It can lead to creating transcendent experiences or solutions.

Nothing in this description feels familiar to me. The only time I get insights like the ones described here are when I'm sleeping.

[tovlo]

This sounds very much like what I do, so from that I would say that it would be very likely Ne and Fi in play.

yeah, I do think it certainly could be.

But I will say that I find INFP's give off a certain "vibe" that either repels and disgusts me completely, or makes me think they're wonderful people (sometimes the same person at different times).

With other INFJ's... it seems to be more "normal/open," and so I think for that reason that you're probably an INFJ... you don't have that overly intense, discomfiting vibe, but seem to have more a gentle curiosity/concern

I have some sense of the vibe you're refering to. I think I have felt something similar.

I do know my sense is that in some fundamental way I'm different from INFP's. I feel different from INFJ's too, but it's odd because it feels like more superficial differences. When INFP's start to describe their inner process or it is revealed in their approach to a topic, I find myself often getting confused and feeling lost. When INFJ's start to describe their inner process, I usually feel grounded and safe and have an excited feeling of "yes! yes! I see what you see!"

I feel positive self-growth in exploring unfamiliar INFP perspectives, though I do also often feel a tension of instability and insecurity in the presence of these perspectives. I generally feel comforted and at ease in the familiarity of INFJ perspectives.

I think that might say a lot about my natural type.

The INFJ doesn't show as much N in the outer world. Inside is where all the intuition plays out, where they change their way of seeing a situation. Outwardly, where the Ne person is playing, the INFJ is more controlled and focused and anchored; it is inside where the shift and dancing around is occurring, so that one can reorient the way he or she views something.

Hmmm...so in reading that, I'm considering that the shifting and dancing of perspective is happening with both Ne and Ni, but Ni happens internally where it's not visible. The descriptions quoted maybe are intentionally or unintentionally describing mostly the external manifestations of the intuitive process. The Ne description would resonate with me because I would recognize my internal process in it, but the Ni might actually have less resonance because it describes how my internal process results might look externally while I am more familiar with the internal workings than this interior function's limited external manifestation.

...once I've gone through that lengthy internal process, and come to a definitive 'conclusion' or 'route' to take, I can then move forward with certainty.

Yep. ;)

This came to my mind: Wanting the accurate label is J, wanting to fully understand self (whether you're a J or a P doesn't matter) is P. Which do you identify with more?

Wanting to fully understand self. No question.

However, that doesn't mean the label is unimportant to me. It's not. The label is a superficial description of what exists underneath and so feeling some confidence in the accuracy of the label is an indicator to me of a more solid sense of self-understanding. To simply say the label is unimportant indicates to me on some level that I've given up the attempt at greater self-understanding. Trying to dig as deeply into understanding of what each label attempts to describe and how closely each potential label matches or doesn't match what I know of myself helps me make sense of where my self-awareness might need to grow and also possibly where the labels simply aren't accurately descriptive.

The only time I get insights like the ones described here are when I'm sleeping.

It's not quite that limited for me, but I can't deny that my sense of resonance with the Ni description quoted here is truly less than that with the Ne description.

Lots to ponder. Today I'm feeling less perplexed by the Ne/Ni thing and my type. Just back to thinking I'm INFJ with tinges of INFP expression, wondering about how or why that manifests in me, and about how the mechanism of type as thus far understood by me still seems inadequate description.

[Gabe]

well, here's a perfect time to mention this website.

INFJ or INFP? a closer look (http://www.infjorinfp.com)

(the author of this site is MBTI qualified)

To be honest I'm already leaning towards _NFP (there's a blank there, because many, many ENFPS start off assuming they are introverts)

[TenebrousReflection]

Part of that Ni dominant identification was recognition of the large role my ability to see things from a number of different perspective vantage points has played throughout my life. It has repeatedly allowed me to re-envision my life situations and find new ways to engage when things become difficult. It has garnered me admiration and gratefulness from friends who express appreciation for my ability to give them new insights into their own situations.

I really thought this trait was Ni. I've heared INFJ's here describe what I thought was that sort of perspective shifting and it reinforced to me the idea that this ability to see things from many different angles was Ni.


I'm fairly comfortable considering myself INFP now (still not enough to change it in profile tho :)).

On the cognative function test, I scored high on Fi, Ni (slightly higher on Fi, but not much), a bit lower on Ne, and a lot lower on Fi (still above normal I think, but lower than all the others).

A while back Bluewing made a post on how Fi and Ne interact for an INFP, and for me that was one fo the key points that solidified my decision since I related to so much of it. (link to post) (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/2238-infp-profile.html)

One of the key points is that an INFP can look like they are using Ni because Fi is bending Ne inward to serve it.


We should also note that the Extroverted Intuition of the INFP is often aimed inwards due to the primacy of an Introverted Function-Introverted Feeling. Fi-Introverted Feeling, bends the Extroverted Intuition inwards and therefore creates the effect germane to Introverted Intuition. This leads the INFP, unlike most perceiving types to merely collect information that is fitting with the goals set by Introverted Feeling, instead of collecting all information as their extroverted cousin ENFP would be more likely to. This also leads the INFP to be able to derive profound meaning from complex ideas much like the INFJs do with their Introverted Intuition. This phenomenon is best depicted in Dostoevsky’s Intuitive psychological insights in outstandings novels like Brothers Karamazov , The Idiot, and Notes from Underground. In those writings, it was clear that Dostoevsky discovered those notions not from careful analysis, or even examinations of Feelings, but rather purely intuitively. As he made connections that he did swiftly and projected them onto a variety of other entities, and his ability to do this with hardly any hesitation seems to suggest that this was not a conscious process for him. The INFPs also have this gift, they in fact may be better than the INFJ in deriving profound meaning in complex ideas. INFJ, as a dominant Introverted Intuiting type, is likely the most Intuitive type. However, one does not need as much Intuitive power in order to derive profound insights. INFJs often have more intuitions than they can consciously process. INFPs, on the other hand, are often able to consciously process-or apply feeling-oriented judgments to nearly all of their Intuitions. Their raw intuitions in themselves may not link them to direct insights as they would with the INFJs, but this certainly happens after they have applied Introverted Judgment to the contemplated idea.



I have however always lacked the certain definiteness and forcefulness pushing me into social action that is often described as INFJ. I have in the past attributed this difference from typical INFJ description to my closeness on the INFP/J scale and a strong use of Ne offsetting the more obvious manifestations of Ni.

I am most often stalled from definitive and forceful action because I can see many valid options and barrelling in on one as if it's the only valid possibility seems imprudent and inauthentic to me when I value any of the other options as just as useful generally. The specific validity of an option to me depends only on the circumstances of the particular situation. When I make a decision and move forward with a sense of conviction it is usually because I have taken all those valid options and turned inward evaluating which one seems to match my own situational needs most closely. It becomes the most valid option for me at that particular time. It is with this recognition that I then have the drive to move forward without letting external detractions derail me.


This does not sound quite like what I do (parts of it, but not all of it). What I do is more along the lines of rapidly starting mental scenarios and playing through them and "flagging" them as I go, then exploring the more appealing ideas in greater depth trying to find one that "feels right" and also might have a chance to reach the solution I want.


When offering perspectives to other people I tend to offer them without pushing for implementation. I see my outside perspective as less valuable for evaluating the specific usefulness of any perspective for someone else than that person's own internal assessment. I see my useful role as to offer things for consideration and then I remove myself to the role of observer and supporter in the process because I see them as knowing better than I could what tool will best suit their needs. At that point, my main goal is to encourage them to trust their own sense of what is the right for them and to celebrate their decisions with them.

Is this Ne and Fi?

I'm suddenly confused.


I'm not sure what exactly it would represent (I'll leave that interpretation to those more knowledgeable in specific functions). What I can say is that sounds fairly close to me. One of my beliefs is "the anwers we need are usually already in each of us, but sometimes we need someone else to help us see where to look and/or to help show us what we are overlooking".


I do seem to process differently in many ways from INFP's I've encountered and I've felt more resonance with the described experience of INFJ's. I feel comfortable when things have closure and seem to lack a comfort with ambiguity that many INFP's seem to possess.

Here are the Ne and Ni descriptions from the cognitive functions site:


FWIW, you are one of those INFJs whos posts I usually relate to reasonably well but ocasionaly find things that seem very different (Cascademn, Athenian200 and Nightning and a couple others that have not posted in this thread also fall in that catagory, but the majority of INFJs here seem different enough from me to make me think INFP is my best match).


think that the Ni descriptions are inadequate, and actually include a lot of the Ne descriptions.

But I will say that I find INFP's give off a certain "vibe" that either repels and disgusts me completely, or makes me think they're wonderful people (sometimes the same person at different times).

With other INFJ's... it seems to be more "normal/open," and so I think for that reason that you're probably an INFJ... you don't have that overly intense, discomfiting vibe, but seem to have more a gentle curiosity/concern.

Which of those categories would you put me in? :)

[tovlo]

well, here's a perfect time to mention this website.

INFJ or INFP? a closer look (http://www.infjorinfp.com)

(the author of this site is MBTI qualified)

To be honest I'm already leaning towards _NFP (there's a blank there, because many, many ENFPS start off assuming they are introverts)

That site was an interesting source of information for me, but for me inconclusive and a source of additional confusion. I've heard similar feedback from many people who seem close on the INFJ/INFP border. Those who are solidly typed either INFJ or INFP seem to recommend this site with the most confidence it will help someone sort out their type, but those I've encountered who are close to the border and searching seem to experience going from page to page feeling more INFJ on one page and more INFP on the next and ending up overloaded and more confused than when they started. Informative, but confusing.

All the same, thanks much for the recommendation. Perhaps if someone else is looking it will be the source that will help them decide.

[Athenian200]

I have some sense of the vibe you're refering to. I think I have felt something similar.

I do know my sense is that in some fundamental way I'm different from INFP's. I feel different from INFJ's too, but it's odd because it feels like more superficial differences. When INFP's start to describe their inner process or it is revealed in their approach to a topic, I find myself often getting confused and feeling lost. When INFJ's start to describe their inner process, I usually feel grounded and safe and have an excited feeling of "yes! yes! I see what you see!"

Oh, I completely concur with the bold part...

I feel positive self-growth in exploring unfamiliar INFP perspectives, though I do also often feel a tension of instability and insecurity in the presence of these perspectives. I generally feel comforted and at ease in the familiarity of INFJ perspectives.

That's one difference between us... When I try to deal with IxFP's, I feel like their values are mutable and confusing, and as if nothing I do is good enough for them. They usually don't like me because I'm too "logical." :huh: :(

But then they turn around and get along fine with INTP's, so go figure. :dry: I keep trying to understand INFP's, but I can't see anything I can relate to in their values.



Which of those categories would you put me in? :)

Well, I'd have to get to know you better first... but you don't seem like an INFP (or at least the sort of people I've pegged as INFP's). You might be an INTP, an INFJ, or less likely an INTJ. (sometimes they can be hard to tell apart at first online, if they're well rounded enough.)

Anyway, I have a question for you... and maybe tovlo. Can you decide to simply believe some thing is true because you want it to be, or do you have to have some kind of carefully considered reason for believing it? A lot of times INFP's can just believe in something in a way I can't. I don't know if all of them are like that, but they seem to tend in that direction. INFJ's still seem idealistic, but more... aware. Does that make sense?

[tovlo]

This does not sound quite like what I do (parts of it, but not all of it). What I do is more along the lines of rapidly starting mental scenarios and playing through them and "flagging" them as I go, then exploring the more appealing ideas in greater depth trying to find one that "feels right" and also might have a chance to reach the solution I want.

I agree there seems to be some subtle difference. My sense of INFP's is that the process for them is more about fitting external information into an already existing framework until the information that "fits" is found. My experience is more like building a framework that makes sense around the information I've been able to gather.

One of my beliefs is "the anwers we need are usually already in each of us, but sometimes we need someone else to help us see where to look and/or to help show us what we are overlooking".

Here again, I do think there's perhaps a slight and very subtle difference. (maybe...not sure) My sense is that many INFP's I have encountered actually have a tendency toward a bit more of an active disposition in terms of believing people need their insight in order to see the answer clearly. They seem to believe the answer is in the other person, but the other person is in need of their enlightenment in order to find what the INFP knows already is the answer. I admit that I've felt this tendency as invasive and disempowering. But I know my tendency is toward much more passive engagement. I'm only there to offer information and perspective and once offered, I pretty much walk away from engagement with what the receiver decides to do with that information. I have a sense of ease generally that they'll know better than I would how much to value the perspective and insights I can offer and my sense of unease would come from feeling I may have imposed my view too strongly into their experience and in that imposition may have potentially misled them away from finding the true answer resting within.

I don't know if my approach is actually common to INFJ's though, I just know it seems different from what I sense in many INFP's.

[tovlo]

Anyway, I have a question for you... and maybe tovlo. Can you decide to simply believe some thing is true because you want it to be, or do you have to have some kind of carefully considered reason for believing it? A lot of times INFP's can just believe in something in a way I can't. I don't know if all of them are like that, but they seem to tend in that direction. INFJ's still seem idealistic, but more... aware. Does that make sense?

I can't just belive something is true because I want it to be. I must have some kind of carefully considered reason for believing in it. Now I may expend great effort creating a framework of reason that feels acceptable to me so that I can believe in something I want to believe in, but if I can't make that framework work out in a way that makes sense to me, I can't just toss the framework aside and say I believe in it anyway. It has to make sense or I feel ungrounded.

[Athenian200]

I agree there seems to be some subtle difference. My sense of INFP's is that the process for them is more about fitting external information into an already existing framework until the information that "fits" is found. My experience is more like building a framework that makes sense around the information I've been able to gather.

Yes, Fi is an internal framework. Ni is perspectives. That's similar to what I was conveying, only I think you did a better job. The idea you convey in your signature "Just because they're not on the road you're on..." is something I don't think an INFP could "get".


Here again, I do think there's perhaps a slight and very subtle difference. (maybe...not sure) My sense is that many INFP's I have encountered actually have a tendency toward a bit more of an active disposition in terms of believing people need their insight in order to see the answer clearly. They seem to believe the answer is in the other person, but the other person is in need of their enlightenment in order to find what the INFP knows already is the answer. I admit that I've felt this tendency as invasive and disempowering. But I know my tendency is toward much more passive engagement. I'm only there to offer information and perspective and once offered, I pretty much walk away from engagement with what the receiver decides to do with that information. I have a sense of ease generally that they'll know better than I would how much to value the perspective and insights I can offer and my sense of unease would come from feeling I may have imposed my view too strongly into their experience and in that imposition may have potentially misled them away from finding the true answer resting within.

Yes... I do experience that. Sometimes in certain situations, if I feel that something is really unfair, I might keep trying very hard to justify/explain my view, but that's only if I can't fit their view into what I understand, in any way. And I don't really care for the attention it draws, or the feeling of imposing so much...


I can't just belive something is true because I want it to be. I must have some kind of carefully considered reason for believing in it. Now I may expend great effort creating a framework of reason that feels acceptable to me so that I can believe in something I want to believe in, but if I can't make that framework work out in a way that makes sense to me, I can't just toss the framework aside and say I believe in it anyway. It has to make sense or I feel ungrounded.

Yes! Exactly. There have been times I wanted to/tried to just believe in something anyway... but I couldn't. Well, tovlo, I'd say you're an INFJ. :)

[Jennifer]

My sense is that many INFP's I have encountered actually have a tendency toward a bit more of an active disposition in terms of believing people need their insight in order to see the answer clearly. They seem to believe the answer is in the other person, but the other person is in need of their enlightenment in order to find what the INFP knows already is the answer. I admit that I've felt this tendency as invasive and disempowering. But I know my tendency is toward much more passive engagement. I'm only there to offer information and perspective and once offered, I pretty much walk away from engagement with what the receiver decides to do with that information. I have a sense of ease generally that they'll know better than I would how much to value the perspective and insights I can offer and my sense of unease would come from feeling I may have imposed my view too strongly into their experience and in that imposition may have potentially misled them away from finding the true answer resting within.

Thank you for sharing this, Tovlo. That actually seems to fit my experiences with INFP and INFJ very well. And it's rather ironic, because INFPs seem more relaxed and open on the surface, whereas INFJ seems more "closed" or sure of themselves... but in an actual interaction, in terms of decisions I make, I end up feeling that the INFJ actually empowers me more to make my own decisions and find what is right for me in my situation, whereas INFP usually is encouraging me towards a particular value or reminding me of what values are important in the situation (in their perspective).

In terms of this entire discussion, I think one of the confusing areas is that we all still use all eight functions. No one is exclusively Ni or Ne. So sometimes it becomes difficult to 'tease out' the particular impact of a particular function or be able to recognize when it is being used. Just because one is INFJ doesn't mean they aren't mingling in some Ne use, and vice versa.

[cascadeco]

Tovlo: I feel for you... I think both of us are on the same boat. I'm also borderline when it comes to J/P. I'm fairly certain I am Ni dominant, however I seem to also like using Ne... more than Fe which is surprising, however Fi is low. People I interact with say I give the outward appearance of a J, however I personally feel I am very reluctant in making decisions and prefer openness.

nightning - I was very busy and my mind was elsewhere for most of the weekend, so I didn't really focus in on your words as much as I could have, the first read-through!

I also think I'm Ni dominant (simply put, I'm in my head quite a lot!), but Ne is right up there too. As for me personally, my Fi is quite high, which I don't think is typical of an INFJ. But all things considered, I think my cognitive behavior towards others is rather Fe.

One thing I struggled with myself is determining to what extent is my intuition Ne. Some signs are obvious. For example, I am rather visually orientated. Often times I noticed patterns in the things I see and I immediately think of how that can be applied in something else usually in art and design.

I am very visually/pattern-oriented as well.

Sometimes I wonder whether a very insecure INFJ might act like an INFP... (inability to chose despite wanting closure) or if it's just what happens when you fall on the J/P cusp. Then there's another part of my mind that asks does it truly matter whether you are an INFJ or an INFP. The label should only be there to help you understand yourself. It shouldn't dictate who you are. MBTI is afterall only a theory.

A curious thought; I don't know! But this whole paragraph resonates with me - just the questions, the thoughts, the comments on label and how it shouldn't dictate who you are..yeah.

I don't know if that's Ne Fi or just Ni working by itself. What do I mean by that? Well the nature of Ni provides multiple perspective. INFJs tend to pursuit an ideal world where everybody can self-actualize. However for that to happen, you must let the other person decide for themselves what is it that they wanted.

Yes!

------------------------------
I also wonder myself whether INFP in general is more comfortable just being who they are without abandon, and not caring so much what others think of them - i.e. more comfortable in taking things as they are, 'rolling with it', not pushing things, letting things happen of their own accord, very conscious of their own vision....whereas INFJ is maybe more concerned of others' perceptions of them, and have a stronger external need for acceptance and validation from others? But also INFJ's want to find that closure and find that 'path' to take in the moment - and really want things settled out and are more uncomfortable just letting things happen of their own accord. I also wonder whether INFJ's in general tend to *analyze* situations more so than INFP's; and get caught up in the details maybe? I might just be speaking of the difference in myself and an INFP I know, though. It may not be universal.

I have an affinity for INFJ's in real life...somehow we find each other. ;-) I have a hard time articulating how we're all quite similar - but I think it has to do with our thought processes, and our openness to ideas and openness to possibilities, and seeing multiple perspectives and not being caught in just one mindset, or just one way of viewing a person, a situation, an external event....having a more fluid internal process, I suppose...we may not have all the same specific beliefs, but HOW we think and communicate and interact with others and perceive the world/people is VERY much the same. Another thing myself and my INFJ friends have in common is that we're intensely idealistic, but we also are practical and are aware of 'reality'. So we to some extent battle the two, and it's sometimes hard to reconcile/balance the two and stay true to ourselves. Or we are constantly refining it throughout life. We also have a strong need for purpose and 'meaning' and not just going through the motions - but that's perhaps an NF thing, not specific to INFJ.

And finally, we can 'blend' pretty easily into a system, and figure out how it works and how everyone interacts and thus what we need to do to mesh into it. One of my friends I'm referring to is much more of a solid INFJ than I think I am - there's no question about it - and in her words: 'I think my greatest talent is to be whoever someone wants me to be.' I think this is tied to both being very intuitive to other peoples' personalities/needs, and being Fe - the acceptance/fitting in/pleasing others thing - and now I'm rambling all sorts of things, but I know in my personal past, I've fallen into that pattern - being who I knew the person I was with wanted me to be. :-) It's something I haven't done recently, and I don't intend to do it anymore in the future, as I don't think it's really a good/real/true thing and it basically negates the self, but there you have it. My INFJ friends and I are also very honest - but there is a time and place for everything, if that makes sense...it's rather person-specific in terms of how to deliver the message, or whether not to deliver it at all (and typically we will only express our true thoughts/opinions if our opinion is asked for. My other INFJ friend take the route of asking someone: 'Do you want to know my opinion?', before delivering it). An INFP told my INFJ friend that she was "Absurdly honest." I have gotten similar comments regarding myself - being honest and open, to the point of it on occasion being received harshly if the party doesn't like the message. Of course it's a very delicate balance - knowing how to present the message in a loving/constructive manner, when to, if it's appropriate/necessary, etc.....

Done babbling.

I wish I knew more INFP's in real life to have a better comparison between the two.

[Gabe]

That site was an interesting source of information for me, but for me inconclusive and a source of additional confusion. I've heard similar feedback from many people who seem close on the INFJ/INFP border. Those who are solidly typed either INFJ or INFP seem to recommend this site with the most confidence it will help someone sort out their type, but those I've encountered who are close to the border and searching seem to experience going from page to page feeling more INFJ on one page and more INFP on the next and ending up overloaded and more confused than when they started. Informative, but confusing.

All the same, thanks much for the recommendation. Perhaps if someone else is looking it will be the source that will help them decide.

O.K, maybe try reading the blog comments.

And now I'll try to do the websites routine:
Fe vs. Fi: Fe often has an 'amen chorus' nature about it. Think of that Sienfeld episode- Jerry is complaining about how his girlfriend refused to finish his meal when they went out, without even giving a reason. Now we all complain and consult, but Jerry (Fe preferring) leans over and asks a total stranger if they agree with him about the situation. "but you wouldn't just refuse, right", "Yes, I'm not a psycho". If someone has a complaint, a Fe-preferring listener will also go as far as they can in *agreeing* with the person to make them feel better. People who prefer Fe constantly concern themselves with what is socially correct. With that, Fe contains a big portion of what people call 'social skills' and things like gifts/compliments are in the domain of extraverted feeling.

Fi has a much more "right or wrong" focus, where "right or wrong" has nothing to do with what's socially correct. In the world of Fi, ettiquete only means anything if the person sees it as having any worth/value. It is common for people who prefer Fi to rebel against common values that seem to reflect poor value judgement for them: Manners, Holiday obligations, etc... (I notice myself that I feel annoyed every time I have to adress one of my uncles as Uncle___) When someone who prefers Fi hears someone who prefers Fe getting on thier soapbox about some collective moral, the Fi person often thinks "Who cares? ___ never did any harm!" Fi is about defining one's own values and living by them.

(I just blabbered about that one, because I think it's the easiest preference to decide)

To be honest, by now I'm pretty sure you're an _NFP

[nightning]

I do know my sense is that in some fundamental way I'm different from INFP's. I feel different from INFJ's too, but it's odd because it feels like more superficial differences. When INFP's start to describe their inner process or it is revealed in their approach to a topic, I find myself often getting confused and feeling lost. When INFJ's start to describe their inner process, I usually feel grounded and safe and have an excited feeling of "yes! yes! I see what you see!"

I feel positive self-growth in exploring unfamiliar INFP perspectives, though I do also often feel a tension of instability and insecurity in the presence of these perspectives. I generally feel comforted and at ease in the familiarity of INFJ perspectives.

I wouldn't be surprised if you're both and neither INFJ and INFP. My take on INFJs is that they are very sure of their reads on people and issues, but when it comes to understanding themselves, they often become puzzled. The INFPs are the reverse. Self concept is particularly strong... when interacting with the external world though, they always keep it at the back of their minds that other people are different and don't try to read the situation as is. Hmmmm need to work on my wording some more.

My feel of you is that you're even less of a J then me... but you don't like feel INFP either. More like a melting pot of the two. Again, I have to question the validity that a person must be of one type. But it's not a bad thing to be in the middle... it simply indicates that you're a well rounded person. And it shows in the way Athenian and Gabe identify you. You get the best of both worlds.

If I were you... I wouldn't worry so much about trying to define exactly what you are. It's much more productive to explore what you can do... expanding the abilities of your functions. :hug: Best of luck in finding yourself.


However, that doesn't mean the label is unimportant to me. It's not. The label is a superficial description of what exists underneath and so feeling some confidence in the accuracy of the label is an indicator to me of a more solid sense of self-understanding. To simply say the label is unimportant indicates to me on some level that I've given up the attempt at greater self-understanding. Trying to dig as deeply into understanding of what each label attempts to describe and how closely each potential label matches or doesn't match what I know of myself helps me make sense of where my self-awareness might need to grow and also possibly where the labels simply aren't accurately descriptive.

*nods* I can see that. Again, instead of trying to separate and isolate the two. Perhaps you should instead see the similarities between INFJ and INFP before comparing the differences. Putting the two together in a continual scale. Maybe then you'll be able to plot yourself somewhere on that scale.

I agree there seems to be some subtle difference. My sense of INFP's is that the process for them is more about fitting external information into an already existing framework until the information that "fits" is found. My experience is more like building a framework that makes sense around the information I've been able to gather.
The framework points to Ni in INFJ... for the INFPs I feel they just know.



I'm only there to offer information and perspective and once offered, I pretty much walk away from engagement with what the receiver decides to do with that information. I have a sense of ease generally that they'll know better than I would how much to value the perspective and insights I can offer and my sense of unease would come from feeling I may have imposed my view too strongly into their experience and in that imposition may have potentially misled them away from finding the true answer resting within.

I don't know if my approach is actually common to INFJ's though, I just know it seems different from what I sense in many INFP's.
That is my approach as well. I often view myself as the catalyst. (a friend of mine coined the term... bless her. It fits so well :wubbie: ) I'm there to point out the possibilities and help the person achieve their goals. But what that goal might be, only they can decide. Much like platinum in a chemical reactions... It doesn't matter what the reactants are or what the products will be... it just makes things happen faster. I'm such a science nerd! :nerd:

[cascadeco]

I'm there to point out the possibilities and help the person achieve their goals. But what that goal might be, only they can decide.

Yes, I fully agree with this. I rarely offer 'advice' to people, other than helping them sort through THEIR thoughts. I also don't believe *I* am in any position to give specific advice to others -- only general advice -- and so general as to be not much help, but I don't think I am in any position to plot someone elses' path/life out for them...only they can do that. I am usually just an active listener and encourager and supporter. :-) But I will try to dig deep and ask questions to get more to the heart of what's going on with someone, and their feelings. But I won't articulate conclusions - more just guide things I suppose.

I never tell people what they 'should' do, because only they know what's best for THEM. But if asked my opinion, I may give it, but I'll be careful to note it's only MY opinion, and it doesn't necessarily mean it fits them. Hmm.

[nightning]

nightning - I was very busy and my mind was elsewhere for most of the weekend, so I didn't really focus in on your words as much as I could have, the first read-through!
I value your thoughts... but I was just rambling myself. There's no need to concentrate on any of it!


I also think I'm Ni dominant (simply put, I'm in my head quite a lot!), but Ne is right up there too. As for me personally, my Fi is quite high, which I don't think is typical of an INFJ. But all things considered, I think my cognitive behavior towards others is rather Fe.
Sometimes I wonder if INFJs as a group are more variable than the other types or if the INFJs gathered here on the forum are "atypical". I read through Sub's handwriting analysis for you... and many of his comments apply to me as well. Especially the part about wanting contact but unconsciously erecting barriers to push people away.


I also wonder myself whether INFP in general is more comfortable just being who they are without abandon, and not caring so much what others think of them - i.e. more comfortable in taking things as they are, 'rolling with it', not pushing things, letting things happen of their own accord, very conscious of their own vision....whereas INFJ is maybe more concerned of others' perceptions of them, and have a stronger external need for acceptance and validation from others?
The Fi vs Fe difference. I haven't interacted with that many INFs, but that is certainly my take on things as well. INFPs give me the impression that if they believe, then things are going to work out. I find it difficult to sit passively. My mind starts to analyze the situation... is there any little thing I can do to make a favorable outcome more likely to occur.


I also wonder whether INFJ's in general tend to *analyze* situations more so than INFP's; and get caught up in the details maybe?
It could be the tertiary Ti in INFJs... nothing more than pure speculations on my part though.


I have an affinity for INFJ's in real life...somehow we find each other. ;-) I have a hard time articulating how we're all quite similar - but I think it has to do with our thought processes, and our openness to ideas and openness to possibilities, and seeing multiple perspectives and not being caught in just one mindset, or just one way of viewing a person, a situation, an external event....having a more fluid internal process, I suppose...we may not have all the same specific beliefs, but HOW we think and communicate and interact with others and perceive the world/people is VERY much the same.
You're very lucky then. I know of only one potential INFJ. But the way our thinking fits together is very comforting. It doesn't matter how badly you worded something, the other person always understands. :yes:

Note to Tovlo:
Maybe you should try this... which type in general do you find easier to interact with? Or rather who understands you better. That might provide more clues in understanding yourself.


And finally, we can 'blend' pretty easily into a system, and figure out how it works and how everyone interacts and thus what we need to do to mesh into it. ... I think this is tied to both being very intuitive to other peoples' personalities/needs, and being Fe - the acceptance/fitting in/pleasing others thing I've fallen into that pattern - being who I knew the person I was with wanted me to be. :-) It's something I haven't done recently, and I don't intend to do it anymore in the future, as I don't think it's really a good/real/true thing and it basically negates the self, but there you have it. My INFJ friends and I are also very honest - but there is a time and place for everything, if that makes sense...it's rather person-specific in terms of how to deliver the message, or whether not to deliver it at all (and typically we will only express our true thoughts/opinions if our opinion is asked for. ... An INFP told my INFJ friend that she was "Absurdly honest." I have gotten similar comments regarding myself - being honest and open, to the point of it on occasion being received harshly if the party doesn't like the message. Of course it's a very delicate balance - knowing how to present the message in a loving/constructive manner, when to, if it's appropriate/necessary, etc.....

I identify with everything you said... specifically what's bolded. The darn Fe just can't say no to people. Changing to adapt is good, but losing self identity is another issue. I found INFPs don't have this problem at all. As to honesty... it's one of the reasons people like talking to me about issues. I'll always tell them the truth.

[anii]

Just back to thinking I'm INFJ with tinges of INFP expression, wondering about how or why that manifests in me, and about how the mechanism of type as thus far understood by me still seems inadequate description.

Hmmm... it could be that spending lots of quality time with a strong INFP is rubbing off on you?

:devil:

Seriously, I've noticed that I appreciate structure more now that I've spent time with an INFJ, and he (the INFJ) seems to appreciate spontaneity a little more now - but only just a little - than he used to. I think there's something to be said about subtle changes/interactions/mutual influence of type expression when alone vs. when in community.

[TenebrousReflection]

Well, I'd have to get to know you better first... but you don't seem like an INFP (or at least the sort of people I've pegged as INFP's). You might be an INTP, an INFJ, or less likely an INTJ. (sometimes they can be hard to tell apart at first online, if they're well rounded enough.)


Thanks, I do think Fi is the process I relate most to, but I also relate to Ni, Ne and Ti, so the crossover blur makes sense. Mostly curious how others see me from my posts etc.


Anyway, I have a question for you... and maybe tovlo. Can you decide to simply believe some thing is true because you want it to be, or do you have to have some kind of carefully considered reason for believing it? A lot of times INFP's can just believe in something in a way I can't. I don't know if all of them are like that, but they seem to tend in that direction. INFJ's still seem idealistic, but more... aware. Does that make sense?

I can beleive soemthing is true without any rational reason for the belief, but its nearly always the sort of thing where I say something like "this is what my heart tells me, so I'll believe it until something proves its wrong". Those sort of beliefs are actually something I associate with Ni. A vision thats so clear to me that I just trust it to be true (vision is not the right word since it doesnt realy have images, its more of a "feeling based" knowing of what is/could be and believing its true and worth pursuing). I associate those with Ni because there is no exploration that leads to it, it just arives, is there and gives me a feeling of certainty about something.


Yes, Fi is an internal framework. Ni is perspectives. That's similar to what I was conveying, only I think you did a better job. The idea you convey in your signature "Just because they're not on the road you're on..." is something I don't think an INFP could "get".
--

People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they're not on your road doesn't mean they've gotten lost.


Actually that makes perfect sense to me. Its the basics of type theory that each type values different things and its important to understand what someone values if you want to understand them. Now where there is some truth to your words is that I find it hard to imagine how someone can be happy from traveling those other paths, but I do recognize that for them its the right path.

[TenebrousReflection]

I agree there seems to be some subtle difference. My sense of INFP's is that the process for them is more about fitting external information into an already existing framework until the information that "fits" is found. My experience is more like building a framework that makes sense around the information I've been able to gather.


Hmmm, let me try to think of an example that shows how I might use the process (I think this is what you are describing for INFP, but I'm not certain)...

I imagine a conversation.
I imagine the ideas I want to talk about.
I imagine what I might say
- I imagine several responses to those words and determine which is most probably, what the worst case migth be and what the best case might be.
I imagine a different way to say the same thing and repeat above process.
When I reach a point where I have a positive probable outcome, I will explore the idea further looking for flaws and negative side effects (are there implications I did not first consider etc), I may either just stop there, or I may continue exploring the topic until I think I have a better probable outcome


Here again, I do think there's perhaps a slight and very subtle difference. (maybe...not sure) My sense is that many INFP's I have encountered actually have a tendency toward a bit more of an active disposition in terms of believing people need their insight in order to see the answer clearly. They seem to believe the answer is in the other person, but the other person is in need of their enlightenment in order to find what the INFP knows already is the answer. I admit that I've felt this tendency as invasive and disempowering. But I know my tendency is toward much more passive engagement. I'm only there to offer information and perspective and once offered, I pretty much walk away from engagement with what the receiver decides to do with that information. I have a sense of ease generally that they'll know better than I would how much to value the perspective and insights I can offer and my sense of unease would come from feeling I may have imposed my view too strongly into their experience and in that imposition may have potentially misled them away from finding the true answer resting within.

I don't know if my approach is actually common to INFJ's though, I just know it seems different from what I sense in many INFP's.

There are times I feel like that. yes. If/when I see a case where I think somethign is obvious to me but not to the person that would benefit from it, I do have a strong temptation to try to help them however I can, and in cases like that, if its important enough for immediate action, its also usually important enough to try to be direct about it, but those are usualy rare cases where I don't think a normal conversation could lead them to the understanding that would help them (at least without frustrating them in the process of trying to get them there that way).

Its when the person realizes they need help, but does not know what they are looking for (a case I've been in often as the one looking for solutions but needing help to find them) that I am refering to where I think exploration of ideas is the best option to find the answers from within. This may be an example of the flaws of the golden rule where doing unto others what you would have them do for you may not be whats best for all involved (I find the method I use/prefer seems to either help or frustrate others without a lot of middle ground).

[INTJMom]

I can't just belive something is true because I want it to be. I must have some kind of carefully considered reason for believing in it. Now I may expend great effort creating a framework of reason that feels acceptable to me so that I can believe in something I want to believe in, but if I can't make that framework work out in a way that makes sense to me, I can't just toss the framework aside and say I believe in it anyway. It has to make sense or I feel ungrounded.I read an excellent comparison of the two this morning. It's here:
Intuition (http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exegesis/Intuition)