Maybe I'm wrong about my type?

[alicia91]

After reading more on this site, I'm starting to doubt my type. Or perhaps I'm just not the 'stereotype' of an ISTJ. A few things about me:

* when I was younger I was more outgoing - possibly an E, now that I'm 40 I've mellowed.
* as a kid I loved telling people what to do (was bossy). My mom claims that I was a bit like Angelica from Rugrats. I still like 'grabbing the bull by the horns' and taking over and doing things MY way. I have to be a leader if it's something that I care about, if I don't care, then I am fine in the background.
* I'm great at giving advice - people tell me that I give the BEST advice on everything -relationships, careers, raising kids, etc. Because I'm good at it, I spend lots of time being an amateur psycologist to friends and family (which can be draining). I'm a great problem-solver.
* I challenge authority if necessary. I've written to the schools that my kids go to about a couple of ridiculous policies (illness is no longer an excused absence!) and in one case got the policy changed. I have no problem 'speaking out' (but I'm always very polite and logical/rational).
* I'm very concerned about my personal 'productivity.' At the end of the day I want to be able to say 'this is what I've accomplished' even if it's just boring household stuff. I don't think that I'm naturally productive, it's something that I'm always trying to improve.
* I am a perfectionist about a lot of things but unfortunately, I'm often disappointed in myself, since things often don't turn out the way I'd hoped. On magazine quiz, it said that my personality was "Frusterated Perfectionist" and that's me to a T.
* Organized versus disorganized? hard to say. I used to be completely disorganized, but I've learned that to be productive I must stay organized. So I'm constantly working on it. In some areas of my life I'm super-organized, in other's - not at all (and that really bothers me).
* planned or unplanned? Both. I love to plan detailed itineries for vacations and such but when I get there if something that I didn't plan on seems more fun, I'll chuck the plan. But I am known as the Disney World Commando by my family.
* In my day-to-day work, I make elaborate plans but rarely stick to them and feel guilty about it. Right now I'm supposed to be working-out but I'm on the computer!
* I think I'm a Chart-the Course type.
* I'm creative, but not in a poetry or writing or abstact kind of way. I design decks, gardens, interiors. My visual/spatial skills are my biggest talent. Not at all good with mechanical things or tools.
* easy going on the outside, not so much on the inside (if I care about something), if I don't care then I don't get worked up about it.
* extremely even tempered on the outside, even if I'm giving someone a piece of my mind.
* medium in terms of patience
* former teenaged/early 20's party-animal, but I'm currently on the board at my church - hee, hee
* not sure if this plays into MBTI theory or not, but from my research (yes, I love to research, should have been a librarian!) I've learned that children of alcoholics often have that 'need to establish control' which I obviously have (not sure if it's natural to me though, or just a learned habit).



Any thoughts?

[Splittet]

My thought is, take this test: Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes (http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/assessment/survey.html)

[alicia91]

Thank you Splittet. I took the test, here are the results.

Cognitive Process Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
extraverted Sensing (Se) ******************************** (32.3)
good use
introverted Sensing (Si) ******************************* (31.6)
good use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ********************** (22.3)
limited use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ********************** (22.8)
limited use
extraverted Thinking (Te) *************************************** (39.2)
excellent use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ************************************* (37.4)
excellent use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ******************************* (31.2)
good use
introverted Feeling (Fi) *********************** (23.2)
limited use


Summary Analysis of Profile
By focusing on the strongest configuration of cognitive processes, your pattern of responses most closely matches individuals of this type: ESTJ

I'm going to spend some time reading it closely. I'm just still so new to all of this that I need to let it sink in.

[Splittet]

The main insight here, is that you are probably a thinking type rather than feeling type. You could be any ST type.

[alicia91]

Darn, I must be half-asleep still. It says ESTJ, not F. Ok, big difference.

[FDG]

Sounds like an ISFJ, what's the problem?

[Splittet]

Darn, I must be half-asleep still. It says ESTJ, not F. Ok, big difference.

Notice your total thinking score is 76,6, while your total feeling score is 54,4. Also both your thinking scores are higher than any of your feeling scores. Judging by your signature, it seems like you have tested quite close on the T/F dichotomy. This test then becomes a very clear indication you are actually a T. The test says you are clearly S. The test indicates you are close on both the I/E and J/P dichotomies though. Hence, I say you can be any ST type.

[alicia91]

Aren't ISFJ' supposed to be - very traditional (I don't think I am), not leaders (I'm more leader than follower), not confrontational (I'll confront BS when I notice it - easily), organized (I am great at organizing other people, and I LIKE it, unfortuntely I don't always follow my own advice).

I guess I was mostly doubting it because I love to lead, come up with new ideas, am very open-minded and most of the descriptions of ISFJ's make them seem like they are extremely 'service-oriented' (love to serve others, need to be needed, etc.) and I'm kind of neutral on that.

Thanks for the input FDG!

[FDG]

Aren't ISFJ' supposed to be - very traditional (I don't think I am), not leaders (I'm more leader than follower), not confrontational (I'll confront BS when I notice it - easily), organized (I am great at organizing other people, and I LIKE it, unfortuntely I don't always follow my own advice).

I guess I was mostly doubting it because I love to lead, come up with new ideas, am very open-minded and most of the descriptions of ISFJ's make them seem like they are extremely 'service-oriented' (love to serve others, need to be needed, etc.) and I'm kind of neutral on that.

Thanks for the input!

Well loving to lead isn't really a COMMON trait of ISFJs, but it probably depends on the area. You tend to take the lead in the areas that are you strenghts and tend to follow in the areas that are your weakness, usually. That's what everybody does, right?

[Jennifer]

You definitely do have some T tendencies, Alicia... but you are not an easy nut to crack because ISFJs can still have many of the traits you listed.

One bias in United States culture is that many women find themselves "pushed" towards an ISFJ mindset. So it can be difficult to tell whether one is really ISFJ or some other type with an ISFJ overlay.

And throwing it the tidbit about children of alcoholics... well, now you have blown the door wide open. It really messes us up; and while there are general traits of CoA people possess as a group, the extent and type of impact really does differ from individual to individual (as I am sure you noticed in your reading -- many of the traits were extremes... you might become a control freak or you might become completely unwilling to control anything, etc.)

Your artistic skills/style seems to be more S than N, that's for certain.

I do not really see a problem with an ESTJ read. I'm just pointing out that some of your ISFJs who have a strong judging function (or show some T aptitude) will have many of these same traits. ESTJ might be the better fit overall, though. As FDG points out, in an area of strength where they feel "experienced," ISFJs can dominate greatly and want to be in charge (mostly because, "If you want something done RIGHT, do it yourself." And that tends to be their leadership style -- they do as much behind the scenes as possible, by themselves, and otherwise tell people the "right way" to do something).

It would be fun to watch you walk through your day... that would probably resolve it one way or another. :)

[alicia91]

Notice your total thinking score is 76,6, while your total feeling score is 54,4. Also both your thinking scores are higher than any of your feeling scores. Judging by your signature, it seems like you have tested quite close on the T/F dichotomy. This test then becomes a very clear indication you are actually a T. The test says you are clearly S. The test indicates you are close on both the I/E and J/P dichotomies though. Hence, I say you can be any ST type.

True. I am going to read up on the ST types and see if they are a better fit. In terms of the I/E I'm not sure if it's going to be very clear-cut because I do think I'm right near the middle, though I'm becoming more I with age (or is it stress? ha ha). The J/P I don't have a good understanding of and at this point have no opinion, I must read up on that.

[Jennifer]

True. I am going to read up on the ST types and see if they are a better fit. In terms of the I/E I'm not sure if it's going to be very clear-cut because I do think I'm right near the middle, though I'm becoming more I with age (or is it stress? ha ha). The J/P I don't have a good understanding of and at this point have no opinion, I must read up on that.

As discussed elsewhere on the site, the J/P sounds very minor but actually makes the largest difference in terms of what functions you actually use.

(An ISFJ versus an ISFP is a totally separate creature, for example.)

We can look at ESTJ and ISFJ:

ESTJ = Te + Si + Ne + Fi
ISFJ = Si + Fe + Ti + Ne

So there is a little bit of similarity, with the Si overlaps. ISFJ references Si first and expresses it through extroverted Feeling, while ESTJ has an Si secondary that is used to support extroverted Thinking.

The Ne can be dangerous for both too. For immature ISFJs, the future is frightening and possibilities (what could happen) can seem overwhelming. ISFJs, if they are too anchored in Si, can see almost paranoid about things that might happen if a situation is left completely undefined or if they have no map for it; their fears will rise up and swallow them. ESTJ meanwhile will use Ne to buttress their Te judging function ("Here's a possibility of something we can do or fix!"), rather than developing Si further and using it as a guide for Te.

[alicia91]

It's all so interesting, but confusing (I only started to read about this a few months ago).

I wonder how important it is to have others who know us well answer these questions? I mean, are we really objective about ourselves? I think my husband would say that in my original post that I'm being hard on myself, and that I'm actually very accomplished, and a totally reliable type of person. But I'm super-hard on myself. I tend to say 'my whole house is a disaster' when it's really only a few loads of laundry that need to be done.

For immature ISFJs, the future is frightening and possibilities (what could happen) can seem overwhelming. ISFJs, if they are too anchored in Si, can see almost paranoid about things that might happen if a situation is left completely undefined or if they have no map for it; their fears will rise up and swallow them. ESTJ meanwhile will use Ne to buttress their Te judging function ("Here's a possibility of something we can do or fix!"),

When I get anxiety (did I mention that I sometimes have that?) I tend to become anxious of the future but when I'm not in an anxiety phase then I tend to be more rational 'I know that could be solved.'

It would be fun to watch you walk through your day... that would probably resolve it one way or another Ok, I this must be an S moment because I'm not sure if you mean just figuratively or you want me to give you an example of my day?

[DaRick]

After reading more on this site, I'm starting to doubt my type. Or perhaps I'm just not the 'stereotype' of an ISTJ. A few things about me:

* when I was younger I was more outgoing - possibly an E, now that I'm 40 I've mellowed.

By mellowed, I'll assume that you've turned into more of an introvert.

* as a kid I loved telling people what to do (was bossy). My mom claims that I was a bit like Angelica from Rugrats. I still like 'grabbing the bull by the horns' and taking over and doing things MY way. I have to be a leader if it's something that I care about, if I don't care, then I am fine in the background.

What are you like more often? Do you take control more often, or do you go into the background more often?

* I'm great at giving advice - people tell me that I give the BEST advice on everything -relationships, careers, raising kids, etc. Because I'm good at it, I spend lots of time being an amateur psycologist to friends and family (which can be draining). I'm a great problem-solver.

This sounds rather F-ish. By problem-solver, I assume that you mean that you are adept at resolving personal conflicts. Unless you use logic correctly to solve personal problems...

* I challenge authority if necessary. I've written to the schools that my kids go to about a couple of ridiculous policies (illness is no longer an excused absence!) and in one case got the policy changed. I have no problem 'speaking out' (but I'm always very polite and logical/rational).

Yeah, that sounds pretty dumb. This sounds ENTJ-ish - going against authority, making sure others adhere to your standards and so forth. I may be conforming to ENTJ stereotypes in saying this, though.

* I'm very concerned about my personal 'productivity.' At the end of the day I want to be able to say 'this is what I've accomplished' even if it's just boring household stuff. I don't think that I'm naturally productive, it's something that I'm always trying to improve.

Sounds J-ish. Trying to do as much as possible within a certain timeframe...I can relate to that.

* I am a perfectionist about a lot of things but unfortunately, I'm often disappointed in myself, since things often don't turn out the way I'd hoped. On magazine quiz, it said that my personality was "Frusterated Perfectionist" and that's me to a T.

Sounds NJ-ish - imaging life as it could be and losing a sense of order when things don't go your way.

* Organized versus disorganized? hard to say. I used to be completely disorganized, but I've learned that to be productive I must stay organized. So I'm constantly working on it. In some areas of my life I'm super-organized, in other's - not at all (and that really bothers me).

I'm so sure whether organisation in itself is a strong indicator of J and P. You can organise yourself at the last minute (as my ISTP dad does), or organise yourself early (as I do).

* planned or unplanned? Both. I love to plan detailed itineries for vacations and such but when I get there if something that I didn't plan on seems more fun, I'll chuck the plan. But I am known as the Disney World Commando by my family.

Sounds like a weak J - making a plan initially, but willing to alter it if something better comes along

* In my day-to-day work, I make elaborate plans but rarely stick to them and feel guilty about it. Right now I'm supposed to be working-out but I'm on the computer!

Hmm...to an extent, I can relate to this. The fact that you even made elaborate plans suggests a slight tendency towards the J though, for your J tends to appear before your P.

* I think I'm a Chart-the Course type.

J.

* I'm creative, but not in a poetry or writing or abstact kind of way. I design decks, gardens, interiors. My visual/spatial skills are my biggest talent. Not at all good with mechanical things or tools.

You're probably not an ISTP then - my ISTP father is an excellent handyman. This is definitely S-ish, though. Do you plan what you design beforehand or just 'go with the flow'?

* easy going on the outside, not so much on the inside (if I care about something), if I don't care then I don't get worked up about it.

This makes me think 'Introvert!'. I'm like this too...a calm facade hiding a personality wrought with alarming mood swings, anxiety and 'introverted anger'. I've heard that INTJ's hold themselves back the most, but I think all I's do, for their interest in people is obviously reduced in favour of their own inward reflections and thoughts.

* extremely even tempered on the outside, even if I'm giving someone a piece of my mind.

I would say IT, due to an implied withholding of true feelings.

* medium in terms of patience

Borderline J/P? Please clarify what you mean further.

* former teenaged/early 20's party-animal, but I'm currently on the board at my church - hee, hee

Taking responsibility on a church board - this does indeed sound STJ-ish. (many INTJ's are atheists and agnostics - I'm different, in that I'm a practicing Catholic who doesn't really relate to either belief) How outspoken are you during board meetings?

* not sure if this plays into MBTI theory or not, but from my research (yes, I love to research, should have been a librarian!) I've learned that children of alcoholics often have that 'need to establish control' which I obviously have (not sure if it's natural to me though, or just a learned habit).

A librarian would be a job most ideal for IJ's, for me. Why do you love to research? Just because you love facts, because you wish to see why certain events or things occur in life, or because you like looking for correlations while researching? The last part is certainly J-ish - taking control to bring closure.

Any thoughts?

You do indeed seem like an ISTJ to me. Faced between pitting you on the S and N side, I decided to throw you on the S-side. Your association with a church board, along with your explicit reliance on your senses made me do this, along with my implication of intuitive qualities within you that I could well have imagined. So yeah, I would say that ISTJ is a viable type for you (although you have ISFJ below your avatar :S).

[Jennifer]

It's all so interesting, but confusing (I only started to read about this a few months ago).

I started reading about it in 1996 or so... and still think that in some ways I don't know that much. I remember having "Big Click" moments even within the last few years, where I thought I had understood but realized that I had been missing a great deal. (Such as when I thought J/P were actually functions in their own rights, but really they are not. Or when I realized how and why functions, according to the theory, had to line up and be matched a certain way...)

I wonder how important it is to have others who know us well answer these questions? I mean, are we really objective about ourselves? I think my husband would say that in my original post that I'm being hard on myself, and that I'm actually very accomplished, and a totally reliable type of person. But I'm super-hard on myself. I tend to say 'my whole house is a disaster' when it's really only a few loads of laundry that need to be done.

:) Exactly, it is hard sometimes to "unpack" someone's self-criticism unless we have seen what they're referring to. Then we can sort of calibrate our sense of "here's what they mean when they say...."

Outside evaluation helps, but your husband still only sees one part of you as well -- the outside, and it is also through his own set of biases. Mostly it is a sense of using your insights and his and other people's to sort of "triangulate" everything.

When I get anxiety (did I mention that I sometimes have that?) I tend to become anxious of the future but when I'm not in an anxiety phase then I tend to be more rational 'I know that could be solved.'

Hmmm.... what sort of things make you anxious? (You don't need to answer if it is too much disclosure.)

Ok, I this must be an S moment because I'm not sure if you mean just figuratively or you want me to give you an example of my day?

Oh -- I was just speculating N-style and musing to myself. :) I would probably have to watch you. When we describe behaviors in text, we often can't write in the nuances that arise from inner motivation that seem much more obvious when the behavior is observed.

[Xander]

ISFJ? I was reading your opening post and thought ENFJ. As for the opening post it's not always that reliable to type off of a persons judgement of their own behaviour. For example my sister sometimes says that she's in a mess and not organised but she's the only person I know who has her smalls draw organised in rows and matched up into sets!!

All opinions are relative to the person giving them. Perhaps more examples of your behaviour would be indicative? Mind you the lack of examples would lead me to think that your not a sensor at all but an intuitive person. You see America as a whole pressures people to be sensors quite heavily and so many intuitives which I've conversed with from the States sound and act more like sensors to me.

[Jennifer]

ISFJ? I was reading your opening post and thought ENFJ. As for the opening post it's not always that reliable to type off of a persons judgement of their own behaviour. For example my sister sometimes says that she's in a mess and not organised but she's the only person I know who has her smalls draw organised in rows and matched up into sets!!

All opinions are relative to the person giving them. Perhaps more examples of your behaviour would be indicative? Mind you the lack of examples would lead me to think that your not a sensor at all but an intuitive person. You see America as a whole pressures people to be sensors quite heavily and so many intuitives which I've conversed with from the States sound and act more like sensors to me.

The fun of online typing: I don't see N or ENFJ at all...

(the puzzle thickens!) :)

[whatever]

I actually thought that the description sounded somewhat like my isfj mom! :D

[Randomnity]

When people commit to plans with you (especially if you planned it) and then decide last minute that they want to change them (ie go to a bar with you instead of dancing or something) do you get angry/upset/hurt? That's the biggest thing I've noticed with my two ESFJ friends. They both really like giving advice too, and take pride in giving good advice.

I don't know any ISTJs or ISFJs though for comparison.

I guess you don't have an idea of which other type you might be, other than xSTJ? The results of your test don't really show a big enough difference to definitively identify you as a particular type. You definitely sound SJ though.

EDIT: Actually everything you wrote could describe my (tested) ESFJ friend. She can seem introverted and very logical at times, and she isn't excessively traditional (though a lot moreso than me).

[Xander]

The fun of online typing: I don't see N or ENFJ at all...

(the puzzle thickens!) :)
I shall attempt to explain.
After reading more on this site, I'm starting to doubt my type. Or perhaps I'm just not the 'stereotype' of an ISTJ. A few things about me:

* when I was younger I was more outgoing - possibly an E, now that I'm 40 I've mellowed.
This reads extrovert to me as I'd expect introverts to go the other way and become more comfortable being around people as they mature.
* as a kid I loved telling people what to do (was bossy). My mom claims that I was a bit like Angelica from Rugrats. I still like 'grabbing the bull by the horns' and taking over and doing things MY way. I have to be a leader if it's something that I care about, if I don't care, then I am fine in the background.
The character says ENFJ to me. What's her name out of Peanuts. That was a nickname used for my sister. Peppermint Patty wasn't it?
* I'm great at giving advice - people tell me that I give the BEST advice on everything -relationships, careers, raising kids, etc. Because I'm good at it, I spend lots of time being an amateur psycologist to friends and family (which can be draining). I'm a great problem-solver.
ENFJs are great advisors and my sister in particular is often surrounded by those who want advice. She's usually being told about a persons troubled history within about five minutes of meeting them and it stems from there.

Obviously this is not exclusive to the type but the whole "BEST" thing says EF to me and I'm getting the N vibe from the post as a whole.
* I challenge authority if necessary. I've written to the schools that my kids go to about a couple of ridiculous policies (illness is no longer an excused absence!) and in one case got the policy changed. I have no problem 'speaking out' (but I'm always very polite and logical/rational).
Lori's mother is both an ENFJ and quite the battler. The type as a whole says to me "I'll give you hell if I think you deserve it" but in a nice and polite kind of way...well except my sister who's a little more than "heart on sleeve".
* I'm very concerned about my personal 'productivity.' At the end of the day I want to be able to say 'this is what I've accomplished' even if it's just boring household stuff. I don't think that I'm naturally productive, it's something that I'm always trying to improve.
This bit says ENFJ because of the productivity in real terms but not feeling 100% about it. Perhaps if it was more productivity surrounding helping people it would feel more fulfilling?
* I am a perfectionist about a lot of things but unfortunately, I'm often disappointed in myself, since things often don't turn out the way I'd hoped. On magazine quiz, it said that my personality was "Frusterated Perfectionist" and that's me to a T.
Frustrated perfectionist? That's not really T as I'd see it more as "Can't do that as well as I'd like so I'm not going to do it at all or be happy with the results I get" kind of thing. Also the whole being disappointed sounds more like an F speaking than a T to me.
* Organized versus disorganized? hard to say. I used to be completely disorganized, but I've learned that to be productive I must stay organized. So I'm constantly working on it. In some areas of my life I'm super-organized, in other's - not at all (and that really bothers me).
This so sounds like a J chastising themselves for not being super organised person with glued on grin rather than a P admonishing themselves for forgetting to eat for three days running. As I said it's all relative to the person making the comment.
* planned or unplanned? Both. I love to plan detailed itineries for vacations and such but when I get there if something that I didn't plan on seems more fun, I'll chuck the plan. But I am known as the Disney World Commando by my family.
Itinerary screams EJ to me. Organising other people to that extent and liking it!!! :eek: Has to be Evil J :devil:
* In my day-to-day work, I make elaborate plans but rarely stick to them and feel guilty about it. Right now I'm supposed to be working-out but I'm on the computer!
The manner in which that is described says F to me and the whole N vibe is still nagging at me. No extraneous explanation, drawn from fresh air as an example or parallel to what's happening.... it's saying N to my eyes.
* I think I'm a Chart-the Course type.
* I'm creative, but not in a poetry or writing or abstact kind of way. I design decks, gardens, interiors. My visual/spatial skills are my biggest talent. Not at all good with mechanical things or tools.
My sister did look at interior design and is very keen on such things but that's no real guide. The descriptive style used does sound similar though.
* easy going on the outside, not so much on the inside (if I care about something), if I don't care then I don't get worked up about it.
Hell if nothing else that rules out ENFP ;)
* extremely even tempered on the outside, even if I'm giving someone a piece of my mind.
Even tempered...I think my sister used to think she was even tempered. She always had a rationale for being over the top upset or jumping down your throat mad. Such a logical person :yes:
* medium in terms of patience
So not very patient at all then?
Either that or very patient but admonishing oneself for not being patient enough to be the new Buddha or something. It's usually one or the other. Few people honestly rate them selves as mediocre and yet deem it significant enough to include in a brief about themselves.
* former teenaged/early 20's party-animal, but I'm currently on the board at my church - hee, hee
Hee hee??? That sounds F to me and NF at that. Not sure why but it does.
* not sure if this plays into MBTI theory or not, but from my research (yes, I love to research, should have been a librarian!) I've learned that children of alcoholics often have that 'need to establish control' which I obviously have (not sure if it's natural to me though, or just a learned habit).
I can't see this as anything in particular. It sounds more like an avid interest than a chore and hence fairly irrelevant to typing. Hell I like researching some things!!

I should just add that I don't know any ESFJs well enough to compare the two possibilities.

[alicia91]

What are you like more often? Do you take control more often, or do you go into the background more often?

Not super easy to answer but I'm going to go with 'take control.' THat's probably because when I really CARE about something, then I want it done right. But then I got roped into helping on a Cub Scout committe and I didn't really care how this particular thing was organized so I just did it and helped.

Do you plan what you design beforehand or just 'go with the flow'?

Something in between. For example, if I'm making flower arrangements for clients then I'll buy a certain amount of 'tall' backbone flowers, a few focal flowers, a bunch of small fillers and some trailers - but I'll figure out the design when I get there. Or if it's a particularly big project then I might have made some sketches in advance, but not a detailed design.


Taking responsibility on a church board - this does indeed sound STJ-ish. (many INTJ's are atheists and agnostics - I'm different, in that I'm a practicing Catholic who doesn't really relate to either belief) How outspoken are you during board meetings?


Ok, I belong to a liberal/progressive church, and I'm on the board under Buildings and Grounds - nothing to do with religion or theories! I'm quite opinonated actually and say a lot.

By problem-solver, I assume that you mean that you are adept at resolving personal conflicts. Unless you use logic correctly to solve personal problems...

Hmmm...not sure. I definately am good at resolving personal conflict. However, I'm good/logical in other ways too. Many years ago my husband wasn't getting ahead in the large corporation he was in and complained to me about it. I took it upon myself to find out what experience/qualifications that others in the company had who were above him, found out that the company paid the tuition and practically enrolled in him his MBA program. There - problem solved.

medium in terms of patience

Borderline J/P? Please clarify what you mean further.

I tend to get impatient when I'm in meeting that drifts off topic or gets personal so I tend to butt in and get the meeting back on track. On the other hand I'm quite patient with children and animals.

Why do you love to research? Just because you love facts, because you wish to see why certain events or things occur in life, or because you like looking for correlations while researching? The last part is certainly J-ish - taking control to bring closure.

MOSTLY, because I'm always on this 'self-improvement' quest and also finding out the BEST way to do something, take care of something, etc. So before I got my dogs, I had to spend a few months researching dog breeds to see what types would be best for my family. Before I got new hardwood flooring I spent considerable amounts of time reviewing wood types. When two of my kids were diagnosed ADHD, I read a ton of books on the subject so that I could understand them and help them. I don't care about facts for facts-sake, it's all about gaining useful info.

Hmmm.... what sort of things make you anxious? (You don't need to answer if it is too much disclosure.)

Lack of security, lack of money, dying young, something happening to my family, my body failing, growing old, medical tests. Yet I recently went for my first physical in three years but I didn't go for a long time because I was so afraid of the doctor finding something. Stupid I know.


Perhaps more examples of your behaviour would be indicative? Mind you the lack of examples would lead me to think that your not a sensor at all but an intuitive person.

Interesting! The first time I took a MBTI test I came out INTJ (Professor Snape type it said)!! But I read up on it and felt it was all wrong - I'm not into abstractions, theories and I'm much more social than that type. Then I thought I was ISTJ, but it also felt wrong because I'm not a 'bean-counter' type - I would hate the kind of routine monoteny I suspect that they like.

I know Jennifer asked about my daily routine in a speculative way, but I just thought I'd mention what works for me. I love a 'flexible routine' meaning that I usually have a 'focus of the day.' I do this 'focus' after I've completed my morning routine which is get up at 5:15, drive kids to school, straighten out the house, do a load of laundry, walk the dogs, surf the net for a bit, and (usually) workout. Depending on how motivated I am, and how much I actually needed to do, I am done around 10-11 and then spend the rest of the day on my 'focus.' When I have jobs I simply shift the 'focuses' around on my calendar. But it really doesn't matter to me whether I do the laundry first or walk the dogs first - I just do whatever makes sense at the time.

You guys are SO helpful!! I really appreciate it.

[Jennifer]

The character says ENFJ to me. What's her name out of Peanuts. That was a nickname used for my sister. Peppermint Patty wasn't it?

Peppermint Patty: ESTP (the low-key outgoing tomboy)
Lucy Van Pelt: ESFJ -- VERY *F* and VERY *S*

There are comparisons between ESFJ and ESTJ, though. Perhaps that is what you're seeing.

[Xander]

Peppermint Patty: ESTP (the low-key outgoing tomboy)
Lucy Van Pelt: ESFJ -- VERY *F* and VERY *S*

There are comparisons between ESFJ and ESTJ, though. Perhaps that is what you're seeing.
Dag nab it I always pick the wrong name!!!! The one in the blue dress who was kind of the temperamental type...just a bit.

She used to be that bad that even if someone raised a hand to her you could visibly see her resolve strengthen like she was feeding off the resistance. That kind always says to me ExFJ and like I said I don't know any ESFJs except my Great Aunt who is a little too old to serve as a good psychological model.

My only frame of reference is that if you constantly ask people if they are okay about every five minutes then you're an S and if you know if they are okay or not then you're an N :)

[alicia91]

Wow, so much information!! I need to digest it all.

On a side-note - does anyone know which MBTI types Martha Stewart and the character Bree from Desperate Housewives are? My husband has joked that I remind him of Martha 'a soft voice, a friendly smile, a plate of cookies....but a battle-ax on the inside.'

[Xander]

Wow, so much information!! I need to digest it all.

On a side-note - does anyone know which MBTI types Martha Stewart and the character Bree from Desperate Housewives are? My husband has joked that I remind him of Martha 'a soft voice, a friendly smile, a plate of cookies....but a battle-ax on the inside.'
Said like that it does sound like ESFJ. I'm thinking that the whole "battle axe on the inside" is in reference to the INTP shadow.

Actually I do know one ESFJ...well met her twice. Now that I think of it I can see the parallels. I bet you're tidy and organised by my standards though :D

[arcticangel02]

Alicia,
A lot of your responses seem very similar to how my Dad deals with things/goes about his day. He's an ESTJ.

You seem slightly more 'go with the flow' than he does - he'll usually prepare things beforehand so he doesn't have to worry about it when he gets to wherever he has to use it - but for the most part your descriptions sounded very similar - especially the part about researching things thoroughly before committing to anything. He also plans his day around a 'list' - he works from home, and has the freedom to do them in whatever order occurs to him, but he gets it almost always all done by the end of the day.

He's usually, yeah, friendly and outgoing, but when he gets frustrated (usually with himself) he can be a little scary. And I have no doubt he'd have no problems with facing down an 'enemy'. ;)

[Xander]

when he gets frustrated (usually with himself) he can be a little scary.
The ESTJs I know don't often admit it's their fault. They use displacement and evasion a matrix agent would envy to place it somewhere else.

[alicia91]

When people commit to plans with you (especially if you planned it) and then decide last minute that they want to change them (ie go to a bar with you instead of dancing or something) do you get angry/upset/hurt? That's the biggest thing I've noticed with my two ESFJ friends. They both really like giving advice too, and take pride in giving good advice.

OMG yes! Unless, it's at least partly MY idea that we should change the plans (if the dancing looks boring for example). If I plan something that people want to change, especially at the last minute, my feelings are usually very hurt.

So I was just emailing this morning with my younger sister and I asked her about all of this. She's vaguely familiar with MBTI, but we discussed my personality 'in general.' Geez, my family thinks that I'm 'cooly-reserved, slightly detached on the outside but warms up when you get to know me, not obviously outgoing or introverted' She laughed when I read the P versus J traits 'it's obvious that you are a J' She also said that my mother has called me a 'wet-blanket!' I'm annoyed at that but my mother is probably an ISFP and doesn't have much common sense. I also disagree with the wet-blanket statement.

Edit - the reason I'm exploring all of this is because I think I'm having a bit of a mid-life crisis! Turning 40 was hard and at the same time I found that the kids are getting older, we have a bit more money, etc. and now it's time for ME! I'm ready for some changes (planned changes! ha ha) and kind of reinventing myself or perhaps just being less of a caretaker for others and following my own desires.

Question - I think I mentioned this in another thread, one of my big problems with working for myself is that I suck at self-promotion. I've only been is business for 1 1/2 years so how can I go out and tell the world that I'm the best decorator in the state? Maybe someone is better? Or if someone asks 'why should I hire you?' I never know what to say! I'm good at negotiating, and talking logically about my designs but pumping myself up - very hard. Does this mean I'm an Introvert?

[arcticangel02]

The ESTJs I know don't often admit it's their fault. They use displacement and evasion a matrix agent would envy to place it somewhere else.

Oh, I disagree.

Given, I only have one person to work off of, but I find when he's doing something (especially trying to fix something) and it isn't working out, he'll steadily get more and more frustrated with himself before he goes BOOM. He usually then goes away to vent and calm down on his own.

But, hmm, now that I think on it, if it is an issue between people, he does get a little self-righteous and avoids responsibility. I remember on a recent holiday, he got a bit sulky (lol) because everyone was expecting him to make decisions and he wasn't comfortable with just making decisions on the fly. He eventually upped and left the room (venting), leaving the rest of us to work out a plan. He did calm down and come back, but definitely initially, yeah, he did avoid dealing with it. Although I tend to think that's also because he knows he doesn't deal with things well when he's angry, so he doesn't. *shrug* Does that sound about right? This was a little while ago, so my memory may be inventing things. ;)

Oh, and the impromptu nature of travelling stresses him a little, too.

[Xander]

Okay that needs a vote immediately.

All in favour of changing the user name to 'WetBlanket' say aye.


:devil:

[Xander]

Oh, I disagree.

Given, I only have one person to work off of, but I find when he's doing something (especially trying to fix something) and it isn't working out, he'll steadily get more and more frustrated with himself before he goes BOOM. He usually then goes away to vent and calm down on his own.

But, hmm, now that I think on it, if it is an issue between people, he does get a little self-righteous and avoids responsibility. I remember on a recent holiday, he got a bit sulky (lol) because everyone was expecting him to make decisions and he wasn't comfortable with just making decisions on the fly. He eventually upped and left the room (venting), leaving the rest of us to work out a plan. He did calm down and come back, but definitely initially, yeah, he did avoid dealing with it. Although I tend to think that's also because he knows he doesn't deal with things well when he's angry, so he doesn't. *shrug* Does that sound about right? This was a little while ago, so my memory may be inventing things. ;)

Oh, and the impromptu nature of travelling stresses him a little, too.
Aye carumba!! Sounds like my father too!!! He's ENTJ though.

Hmm must be both ExTJs.....You sure your's is an S? Mines confirmed by various tests and "experts" but they do sound very similar.

[arcticangel02]

OMG yes! Unless, it's at least partly MY idea that we should change the plans (if the dancing looks boring for example). If I plan something that people want to change, especially at the last minute, my feelings are usually very hurt.

Okay, theoretical: Say you have a close friend who has an on-off SO who's generally unreliable, has a number of bad habits, and is generally, in your opinion, bad for your friend. What would your approach be? Would you let it be, or would you get involved? How?

I have an ESFJ friend in this situation, so I want to see if your response matches up with how she's dealing with it. :)

[arcticangel02]

Aye carumba!! Sounds like my father too!!! He's ENTJ though.

Hmm must be both ExTJs.....You sure your's is an S? Mines confirmed by various tests and "experts" but they do sound very similar.

Haha! Maybe it's just a 'dad' thing. XD

Um, I'm almost certain he's an S. He's never taken any professional tests (he doesn't really have any patience with theoretical things like this!) but both me and my mother think he fits the ESTJ description to a T. Given, I'm hardly experienced at typing people, so.... :P

[Randomnity]

OMG yes! Unless, it's at least partly MY idea that we should change the plans (if the dancing looks boring for example). If I plan something that people want to change, especially at the last minute, my feelings are usually very hurt.

That screams xSFJ to me...I've never met another type who reacts that way, and I never quite understood why they get hurt by it.

Both my ESFJ friends are also very touchy-feely and huggy and "girl-talk"-y, but only with people they know/like. And also very generous and self-sacrificing for friends/family. Is that you? Maybe if you're ISFJ though you wouldn't be as affectionate though, I don't know.

[Xander]

Errm ENFJs get hurt by that too.

Trust me I've offended more than my share!!

[Randomnity]

Errm ENFJs get hurt by that too.

Trust me I've offended more than my share!!
My bad, I meant I've never met another type who does that.

I don't know any ENFJs IRL to my knowledge.

Pretty much everything described here seems to point to S over N though.

[Xander]

My bad, I meant I've never met another type who does that.

I don't know any ENFJs IRL to my knowledge.

Pretty much everything described here seems to point to S over N though.
You reckon? I keep getting a sense of pattern recognition in the notes. Something about not just being locked in an instant but being aware of the larger picture. Now it could be a developed S or it could be an N.... I'm not too sure.

[arcticangel02]

I have to say I'm with Randomnity. She does seem more S to me (in my limited typing experience), and a lot of the things she's saying remind me of the ESxx's I know, rather than the ENxx's. And we can safely say she's not an INxx? :P But my vote goes for a developed S.

[alicia91]

I believe that I AM aware of the larger picture in most situations and do look at long-term implications. Not sure if this is how I've always been, might just have come with age.

That screams xSFJ to me...I've never met another type who reacts that way, and I never quite understood why they get hurt by it.

My take - I put time and thought (usually lots of thought, and perhaps research - read 20 restaurant reviews!) into finding just the right place to go, then when you change your mind about it, I feel like you just rejected something I gave you. I know that sounds neurotic but that's how I feel. But when that happens I generally won't fight it, because 'looking at the big picture' it's just not worth bickering over where we should go for dinner. So I'll just smile and say 'whatever' while also thinking 'next time, why don't you just make the plans in the first place, that way I didn't have to waste my time.'


Okay, theoretical: Say you have a close friend who has an on-off SO who's generally unreliable, has a number of bad habits, and is generally, in your opinion, bad for your friend. What would your approach be? Would you let it be, or would you get involved? How?

Very good question! When I was younger (say a teen) I would have gotten involved and nagged her about his bad qualities, why she is too good for him and possibly tried to hook her up with someone better. Now that I'm older and have mostly concluded that nobody is perfect, and people need to WANT to change their situations THEMSELVES, I would let it go. However, if there was a lot of complaining from my friend, I would certainly say something. For example, lets say my friend was intelligent, educated and ambitious and her SO was a uneducated, lazy, idiot, when she complained I would say 'I've always know you as a person who has strong convictions about what you want in life, I guess ending up with 'Joe' is part of that, though I'm not sure how he fits in. What exactly do you see in him?' If she were to ask directly 'what do you think of Joe?' I would say 'seems kind of uneducated and lazy, but perhaps he has lots of great qualities that make up for those?'

[alicia91]

I'm reading up on ESFJ & ESTJ types and the thing that strikes me is that neither is thought of as 'creative' from what I can tell.

[cascadeco]

As for the creative piece, this is just my opinion, but I don't think you can rule out creativity from any of the types - maybe different types or inclinations of creativity, but just because the ESxJ descriptions don't mention anything about creativity, doesn't mean the ESxJ person is therefore NEVER creative. :) I just briefly glanced at an ISFJ description, and didn't see 'creative' listed for ISFJ either - but an ISFJ friend of mine definitely sees herself as creative and one of her favorite pasttimes is scrapbooking, and being creative in that way.

I think a lot of it too is that as you've gotten older, you have been branching out in your traits, or rather, some of your traits/tendencies may have 'mellowed out'. You've mentioned this yourself in a few of your posts!! I think most people (at least those who aim to grow as a person) tend to become more comfortable with all of the different functions as they age, so that it isn't so black and white, and might be more subtle.

From your descriptions of your childhood, you do sound a bit more E, but I also don't know how more extroverted ISTJ's/ISFJ's would act as children. I also get a lot more 'S' from you, and given the Ne/Ni cognitive function results being rather low in comparison to Se/Si, I think that speaks more towards S as well.

[Maverick]

Aren't ISFJ' supposed to be - very traditional (I don't think I am), not leaders (I'm more leader than follower), not confrontational (I'll confront BS when I notice it - easily), organized (I am great at organizing other people, and I LIKE it, unfortuntely I don't always follow my own advice).

I guess I was mostly doubting it because I love to lead, come up with new ideas, am very open-minded and most of the descriptions of ISFJ's make them seem like they are extremely 'service-oriented' (love to serve others, need to be needed, etc.) and I'm kind of neutral on that.

Thanks for the input FDG!

OK, from a completely intuitive standpoint I'd say that my experience of ISFJ's as an ENTJ is that there are many deep ressemblances.

My gf is a very clear ISFJ, moderate F, and we share many traits in common. Of course, not superficially. Because at first she seems reserved and shy. She can be quite bossy too, often took the lead in projects, is perfectionnistic, is not especially service oriented, likes giving advice, is not especially traditional (actually very tolerant and open-minded, just not interest in theory or imagining possibilities for their own sake), etc. She values "Extraverted Thinking" alot and enjoys using it or when she sees it in others. She will challenge authority and people who are unfair in a way that would scare most apparently assertive types.

However, importantly, she is a genuinely honest, principled and fair person. She is extremely trustworthy and straightforward. No mind games and respects people's boundaires. She takes no for an answer and no matter how much people dissapoint her, she remains fair and trustworthy. Incredibly mature person.

Now, let's get down to the facts and speak a language that I'm sure you'll understand: you test ISxJ, so you are an ISxJ. If the descriptions of ISTJ or ISFJ don't fit, it's because there's a problem with the descriptions or theory.

[proteanmix]

Alicia you are confronting the major problem with MBTI. You'll go read the ESJ descriptions and think, "Hmmm, I don't feel like I'm a docile mule who values security and tradition so much that if all that I held sacred hung in the balance I'd boldly form a human chain to impede the progress that would save it."

So then you begin to wonder if you're an S or an N. I noticed when intro thread you were very sure to point out that you are a "weak S." Why did you feel a need to say that? Many people here proudly brag about how strongly intuitive they are. The bad news is you're basically stuck as the type you came in with. People are going type you as an SJ because that's what you first identified with when you came in. Whatever type you are, it will show in your posting style. I don't know what type you are because I haven't seen enough of you to tell, from what I'm seeing you sound EJ, probably ESJ but I'm not sure.

You sound like a person of diverse. Hopefully, you'll stick around and have people scratching their heads.:)

[alicia91]

Alicia you are confronting the major problem with MBTI. You'll go read the ESJ descriptions and think, "Hmmm, I don't feel like I'm a docile mule who values security and tradition so much that if all that I held sacred hung in the balance I'd boldly form a human chain to impede the progress that would save it."

LOL (where's the laughing smilie when you needs it?) So true! I think I started to object to the ISFJ's stereotype of 'sheeplike and shallow.'

Proteanmix - do you mean that I pointed out that I'm strongly S - I think my intro post made that point, not the reverse? I mentioned my S-type interests. Anyhow, if I did, then it must have been a typo since I've thought my interests were mostly S-type things. Hmm..

Now, if we get down to the facts and speak a language I'm sure you'll understand: you test ISFJ, so you are an ISFJ. If the description doesn't fit, it's because there's a problem with the description and theory

How about a problem with the test? For so many of the questions I've honestly wanted to answer 'it depends on the situation' but of course that's never an option. Or I wonder 'should I answer it based on an ideal situation for me (what would make me happiest) or the way I go about it RIGHT NOW?' Not straightforward IMO.

Anyhow, thanks so much everyone! I really appreciate everyone taking the time to write such detailed, helpful posts. One day I hope to be able to do the same. Right now I'm off to start my first class in Adobe Photoshop. Should be fun! I'll check back later.

[Maverick]

How about a problem with the test? For so many of the questions I've honestly wanted to answer 'it depends on the situation' but of course that's never an option. Or I wonder 'should I answer it based on an ideal situation for me (what would make me happiest) or the way I go about it RIGHT NOW?' Not straightforward IMO.

Anyhow, thanks so much everyone! I really appreciate everyone taking the time to write such detailed, helpful posts. One day I hope to be able to do the same. Right now I'm off to start my first class in Adobe Photoshop. Should be fun! I'll check back later.

Of course that's possible but here I see you took the test on similarminds. Even if done by an amateur, they are reliable and validated and I actually think the answering format is superior to the forced choice in the official MBTI. The problem is not with those tests. If you are unsure, you can just answer in the middle.

A better system of personality is the Five Factor model, for which there is a reliable and valid test here:

Short Form for the IPIP NEO-PI, Introductory Information (http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/j/5/j5j/IPIP/ipipneo120.htm)

It would be interesting for you to report those results and see if this could help us in seeing the situation more clearly.

MBTI theory pretends everyone has a preference but there is no scientific evidence behind this. So if you test middle of the road on something, consider yourself an "x" on that dimension.

[INTJMom]

..."Hmmm, I don't feel like I'm a docile mule who values security and tradition so much that if all that I held sacred hung in the balance I'd boldly form a human chain to impede the progress that would save it."...tee-hee

[INTJMom]

... How about a problem with the test? For so many of the questions I've honestly wanted to answer 'it depends on the situation' but of course that's never an option. Or I wonder 'should I answer it based on an ideal situation for me (what would make me happiest) or the way I go about it RIGHT NOW?' Not straightforward IMO. ...My favorite test is here - favorite in that it usually gives accurate results:
Online test based on Jung - Myers-Briggs typology (http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp)

[arcticangel02]

Also, have you looked at Best-Fit Type : Exploring the Multiple Models of Personality Type (http://bestfittype.com)? The descriptions there are very good, because they come from discussions with people of that type themselves, rather than theoretical description. Tends to get rid of some of that bias. :)

Very good question! When I was younger (say a teen) I would have gotten involved and nagged her about his bad qualities, why she is too good for him and possibly tried to hook her up with someone better. Now that I'm older and have mostly concluded that nobody is perfect, and people need to WANT to change their situations THEMSELVES, I would let it go. However, if there was a lot of complaining from my friend, I would certainly say something. For example, lets say my friend was intelligent, educated and ambitious and her SO was a uneducated, lazy, idiot, when she complained I would say 'I've always know you as a person who has strong convictions about what you want in life, I guess ending up with 'Joe' is part of that, though I'm not sure how he fits in. What exactly do you see in him?' If she were to ask directly 'what do you think of Joe?' I would say 'seems kind of uneducated and lazy, but perhaps he has lots of great qualities that make up for those?'

Interesting!

And to save writing an essay here (amongst other things), I'll PM you. :)

[alicia91]

I've really been thinking about all of this and while I haven't come to any conclusions I'm really stuck on what Jennifer posted about how as females ISFJ tendencies are rewarded. So to some extend I'm wondering what is the 'real' me versus just what I've been doing for the last 15 years. The truth is that a little over a year ago I started a part-time decorating business because I couldn't stand being a housewife for one more day! I was unfullfilled and my self-esteem was at an all time low. I felt trapped in the house, like a slave for my family, and taken for granted by everyone. While I do the usual housewifey things, I really dislike being tied to my house.

I'm also wondering if I'm an E that is a bit socially rusty or lacks confidence or if I'm a mild I. It's like I desperately want to go out and be more social, I'm just not used to it. But perhaps that points to an I? Another thing that's important to me is to have a lot of variety in what I do. For example, while I love to finish up projects, I also want a new one to dive into right away. I can't stand REALLY long-term projects that take forever. I want immediate, tangible results. That's why I 'install' most everything for my clients. I climb a ladder, mount the art, move the sofa, roll out the rug and light the candles. So while I do a good job ( I don't purposely rush) my philosophy: NEW PROJECT, WORK HARD........... NEXT!! Even with my daily stuff around the house, I might designate the hours of 11-1 to get things done, but I don't want to do what I did yesterday. I like novelty - PLANNED novelty! LOL

Something else that may or may not be relevant is my educational history. Right after high school, I wen to university to study Economics. Why? I have no idea. I eventually switched to Political Science and History but didn't graduate. I liked the courses but honestly couldn't forsee myself working in any of these fields which is why I dropped out after 3 years. Then I worked a series of jobs like Office Space Leasing Agent - OK job, Receptinist at Veterinarian - worst job ever (liked the receptionist job but hated cleaning kennels and bathing cats), Sales clerk - loved it, modeling - I'm a bit short so I got jobs like swimsuit modeling, working auto-shows etc. I didn't like it all that much, WAY too focused on the exterior even for me and I'm really into fashion and beauty. Went back to school and eventually in my late 20's got a degree in Interior Design. I don't like everything to do with this career either but it's better than PoliSci.

Another thing - when I think I've got the correct letters I-S-T-J for example, I read the descriptions and don't think it describes me at all!

Thanks for the test links - I'll do those and post my results.

[alicia91]

I took the Short Form test that Maverick posted. I'm depressed, I must be the most average person ever. Here are my scores:

Extraversion - 48

Your score on Extraversion is average, indicating you are neither a subdued loner nor a jovial chatterbox. You enjoy time with others but also time alone.

Agreeableness - 43

Your level of Agreeableness is average, indicating some concern with others' Needs, but, generally, unwillingness to sacrifice yourself for others.

Concientiousness - 59

Your score on Conscientiousness is average. This means you are reasonably reliable, organized, and self-controlled

Neuroticism - 49

Your score on Neuroticism is average, indicating that your level of emotional reactivity is typical of the general population. Stressful and frustrating situations are somewhat upsetting to you, but you are generally able to get over these feelings and cope with these situations.

Openess to Exeprience - 38

Your score on Openness to Experience is average, indicating you enjoy tradition but are willing to try new things. Your thinking is neither simple nor complex. To others you appear to be a well-educated person but not an intellectual.

I'm going to spend more time reading my results. Hopefully I can learn something from it. What I found interesting was that my level of Self-Sufficiency was low - 25. I agree with this. I think this is a problem for me in general and it's something that I'd like to improve. I guess it's the same thing as Confidence which I've always lacked - but often been able to fake.

[arcticangel02]

I'm also wondering if I'm an E that is a bit socially rusty or lacks confidence or if I'm a mild I. It's like I desperately want to go out and be more social, I'm just not used to it. But perhaps that points to an I?

This sounds a little like my confusion with my E/I score - I spent a lot of time at home (with just my family), and didn't really get out very much. Most of the time I was content and fine with it, but I also sort of felt like I was in a bad habit of spending too much time by myself, and sometimes really wished I could get out of the house more. I just didn't. But my manner of interacting with people when I do go out, although it's not 'center of attention look at ME' stuff, is extraverted.

And so I decided I was an extravert, though it's fairly moderate/low.

Also, try not to confuse being social and confident with being E - we can be shy, too! ^^ Though 'desperately want to go out and be more social' does sound to me like an E who's in the habit of not being social.

A better indicator is more like, if you're with a bunch of people you don't necessarily know well for a long while - at the end of the day, do you feel tired and need some time to yourself, to recoup? Or do you find that you're more energised, and wouldn't mind staying around the people longer?

It probably won't be that clear-cut, but maybe that'll help some?

(Okay, I'm totally giving you conflicting advice. >< I'm sorry! I hope you can make more sense of it, though.)

I took the Short Form test that Maverick posted. I'm depressed, I must be the most average person ever. Here are my scores:


You know what? Average usually just means well-rounded. :hug:

Don't worry, you'll work your type out eventually. Even if you decide on xSxJ, or something. Plenty of others do. :)

[alicia91]

It's always been a bit of an insecurity of mine that I'm so 'average' in many ways. I'm really a 'Jack-of-All-Trades' in SO many ways but 'Master of Nothing.' On the other hand I get complimented on the fact that I'm well-rounded, and willing to do all sorts of things, have a lot of hobbies and interests. Yet I can't think of any real 'talents.' Maybe I need to discover some?

But my manner of interacting with people when I do go out, although it's not 'center of attention look at ME' stuff, is extraverted.

How exactly do E's interact versus I's?

[ptgatsby]

You know what? Average usually just means well-rounded. :hug:


Just to emphasise this - average scores on FFM (I didn't see the link, but I am assuming it was NEO) are a good thing... generally speaking, a very good thing.

From the FFM score, you are going to have a hell of a time getting a clear answer from MBTI... the only thing that I would say is likely is that you are a S

As far as as the E/I thing goes - I'd ask yourself "do you have more positive emotions than most people"... if you do, then you are an E. If you have a lack of positive emotions, then you are an I. You would be looking for how excitable you are, how long you are happy for, etc. Don't think about negative emotions in this, just positive "happy/satisfied" types of feelings. It's a limited, but it has strong biological ties that are (next to) impossible to hide. Just avoid thinking about negative periods in particular (stress and such do dampen positive emotions).

[alicia91]

That's good to know that 'average' is a postive thing!

As far as as the E/I thing goes - I'd ask yourself "do you have more positive emotions than most people"... if you do, then you are an E. If you have a lack of positive emotions, then you are an I.

Even though my mom called me a 'wet blanket' I think I'm fairly perky. So I'm leaning towards positive.

I'm seriously leaning towards ESTJ based on studying dominant, secondary, etc. processes.

[autumn]

I just read all the posts in this discussion today, and from the original post and the conversation that followed, I would say the following:

Going by Keirsey temperament, you sound quite a bit like an SJ. I do not see a preference for N at all. (Not that you don't ever use it, of course, but I sure don't see a preference for it over S.)

You also do sound extroverted, though how extroverted I couldn't really say. An extroverted SJ would extrovert their decision-making function (T or F), which would lead to the person being more adept at managing people and things in their "outer world."

Based on this, I would make an educated guess of ESTJ or ESFJ.

Do remember that any type "test" can yield an inaccurate result, even when taken carefully. To maximize your chances of an accurate result, answer the questions as you would when not under any kind of outside pressure (work or social expectations) and with regard to how you are naturally (that is to say, if a person is naturally a strong thinker but has consciously worked at developing their feeling function, they should answer questions as their natural inclinations would have them answer, not as they would answer after working on developing their weaker functions). This can be a bit challenging and can take more time for self-reflection, but should be rewarding.

As far as creativity goes, I think any type can be creative, though they may show that creativity in different ways. Interior design, gardening and landscaping seem like fitting modes of creativity for an SJ, in that they manifestly involve the use of the five senses (S preference) and are practical (especially since you have made a business from this venture!) and involve hearth and home.

I hope this helps!

autumn

[alicia91]

I think you are right autumn about needing to do the quiz using the natural tendency, and not the 'developed' ones. That's so much easier said than done! Especially when you are my age and have read a lot of self-help books! But I now think that the F function is something that I've conciously worked on and I believe it's made be a better, more rounded person, but nevertheless, I believe it's not as natural to me as thinking.

So for now, I'm going to go with XSTJ. I know I'm near the middle of the spectrum on the I versus E, and it's really impossible for me to tell. Yesterday I thought E but today I'm thinking it's I. I'm going to work on getting out more and socializing and see how it makes me feel. Then I'll probably fill in that last letter.

Thanks!

[ygolo]

The Every Day Use of Multiple Models (http://www.notjustapaycheck.com/articles/everydayusemodels.html)

For really difficult typing, I recommend Character and Personality Type (http://www.amazon.com/Character-Personality-Discovering-Uniqueness-Relationship/dp/0966462467).

I think with as difficult a typing job as yours, it would be important to avoid any "forced fits". For instance, I think, you may have forced fit J for yourself.

Not to add to your confusion, but have you completely ruled out the xSTPs?

Getting slight scores in one direction or another mean very little, IMO.

There are a lot of dichotomies, not just the 4 MBTI ones(some seem like minor "rotations" of the main MBTI ones).

It'd be interesting to see if any of these other distinctions are absolutely clear. The ones that aren't clear, I would leave alone for a while.


Another way to think of E vs. I:Initiating vs. Responding. Do you tend to initiate or respond to people more often.

Another way to think of N vs. S: Abstract vs. Concrete -- You seem concrete.

Directing vs. Informing:This is close to J vs. P but not quite. It is a reflection of the type and purpose of the language you use (which reflects a bit of what happens in your mind). Do you generally use language more to "direct" people (in what could certainly be a helpful way) or to "inform" people (in ways that can certainly help them find direction).

ESTPs, and ISTPs are more directing types (despite being Ps), while ESFJs, and ISFJs are more informing types (despite being Js).

Do you aim to control outcomes, or to ensure movement towards goals?

Are you focused more on how people are structured or in how to motivate them?

Do you prefer peer/comrade relationships or relationships like teacher-student, mentor-protege?



In addition to the dichotomies, there are the 4 temperaments, the 4 interaction styles, and the 8 cognitive processes. It would be interesting how you rank them.

Again, if the preferences aren't clear, IMO that they don't need to be ranked (just give them a "tie")


Temperaments

Artisan - Focused on having the freedom to act and making an impact
Guardian - Focused on responsibilities and desire to be reliable
Idealist - Focused on meaning and identity w/ regard to higher purposes
Rational - Focused on competence and having the skills to deal with life well.

Interaction Styles

In-Charge - likes to take the lead
Get-Things-Going - likes to make things happen
Chart-the-Course - likes to make sure we are on track
Behind-the-scenes - likes to make sure we chose the right track


Cognitive Processes
You took the test with regard to this. We kind-of know your preferences.


There are also "flavors" of type that affect behavior. The ones listed in the book, I recommended are (again, if none of these are clear, IMO of the opinion it is better to just move-on):

participative vs. independent styles: Even if recharged more by being with people, extraverts can be very independent. Even if recharged more by solatary activities, and introvert can be very "team" oriented.
an extravert who is independent can seem introverted initially, while an introvert who is participative can seem extraverted.
Local vs. Global perspective:People with local perspectives like to focus on their community and family, while people with a global perspective like to focus on things like the economy and world-affairs. Global perspective people can seem more abstract than they really are, and people with local perspective can seem more concrete than they actually are.
hard vs. soft demeanor:Success orientation vs. self-awareness orientation. I think this is the same as Type A vs. B. IMO, being type A, can make you seem more like a J. Being type B can make you seem more like a P.
Mainstream vs. Counter-Culture attitude:IMO, being counter-culture can make you seem more interested in peer-relationships that you are, while being mainstream can make you seem more interested in mentor-protege relationships than you really are.


Beyond that there are 8 life themes identified:
physical, creative - makes you seem like an SP
academic, entrepreneurial - makes you seem like an NT
community, establishment - makes you seem like an SJ
political, growth - makes you seem like an NF

I probably didn't help clarify your type. But I think it is only really valuable to know your type if it can explain things about yourself that you didn't know before.

I am still coming to terms with my "INTPness". There are many aspects that I don't like about myself, that are really stereotypically INTP pitfalls.

[INTJMom]

I think you are right autumn about needing to do the quiz using the natural tendency, and not the 'developed' ones. That's so much easier said than done! Especially when you are my age and have read a lot of self-help books! But I now think that the F function is something that I've conciously worked on and I believe it's made be a better, more rounded person, but nevertheless, I believe it's not as natural to me as thinking.

So for now, I'm going to go with XSTJ. I know I'm near the middle of the spectrum on the I versus E, and it's really impossible for me to tell. Yesterday I thought E but today I'm thinking it's I. I'm going to work on getting out more and socializing and see how it makes me feel. Then I'll probably fill in that last letter.

Thanks!My 21 year old ISTJ daughter is convinced she's an E when in fact she's an I. She thinks she's an E because she "needs" her friends. This puzzled me for a long time, too. But I learned that her need to spend so much time with her friends was not an E trait but rather the SJ in her. SJs tend to be very relationship oriented.

I was convinced she was an I because she would come home from school, head straight to her room, close the door, and spend the next several hours doing homework. If we opened the door or disturbed her, we would get yelled at.

If she doesn't get enough time alone, she gets irritable.

[INTJMom]

...But I think it is only really valuable to know your type if it can explain things about yourself that you didn't know before.....You are SO RIGHT about that!
MBTI has helped me so much in this regard!




Thanks for the book recommendation.

[alicia91]

Thanks to both of you!

ygolo - thanks for all that information. You've given me a lot to investigate. I don't think I'll have time to delve into it this weekend - got to finish Christmas decorating, but I will report back on Monday. I suppose I haven't completely ruled out the P type at this point, but the main thing that points to J is that I absolutely want 'closure' about relationships and I generally feel better about things when they are wrapped up. I used to think that I had a time managment problem (well, perhaps I do?) because I just can't leave something that isn't at a logical concluding point KWIM? Then it messes up everything else I was supposed to do.

INTJMom - that's very interesting about your daughter thinking that she's an E when she is an I. I honestly believe I'm somewhere near the middle of the spectrum, but whenever I read something about E's versus I's I think "that's ME!" then I read something about the other type and think "no, that's more ME!" and so on, back and forth. Well, at this point, I'm going to say that if I am around other people too long I need to recharge, but if I'm alone too much (or just with my immediate family) then I need to get out and socialize and I feel much better.

[INTJMom]

... if I am around other people too long I need to recharge, but if I'm alone too much (or just with my immediate family) then I need to get out and socialize and I feel much better.I think that means you are more "I" than "E".

[alicia91]

Another way to think of E vs. I:Initiating vs. Responding. Do you tend to initiate or respond to people more often.

Definately Initiate.


Another way to think of N vs. S: Abstract vs. Concrete -- You seem concrete

Yes I'm concrete

Directing vs. Informing:This is close to J vs. P but not quite. It is a reflection of the type and purpose of the language you use (which reflects a bit of what happens in your mind). Do you generally use language more to "direct" people (in what could certainly be a helpful way) or to "inform" people (in ways that can certainly help them find direction).

Hard to say - I know I do both. I know I've become more direct over the years and my husband absolutely detests the 'informing' style of communication so perhaps I've adjusted my style because of him? However, I've always thought that the informing style was more polite.....??? My mom claims that in 5th grade the teacher called her after he overheard me telling the group I was supposed to do a project with that "I'll write the whole thing, you guys color the pictures ....and that way we will get an A."


Do you aim to control outcomes, or to ensure movement towards goals?

Don't know. Maybe the former.


Are you focused more on how people are structured or in how to motivate them?

I'm not sure exactly what is meant by 'focused on how people are structured' but I don't think I'm particularly good at figuring out how to motivate people.


Do you prefer peer/comrade relationships or relationships like teacher-student, mentor-protege?

Peer/comrade

Temperaments
Artisan - Focused on having the freedom to act and making an impact
Guardian - Focused on responsibilities and desire to be reliable
Idealist - Focused on meaning and identity w/ regard to higher purposes
Rational - Focused on competence and having the skills to deal with life well.

Guardian or Rational

In-Charge - likes to take the lead
Get-Things-Going - likes to make things happen
Chart-the-Course - likes to make sure we are on track
Behind-the-scenes - likes to make sure we chose the right track

Chart-the-Course or In-Charge

participative vs. independent styles

Independant. I'm always the best person for the job.

Local vs. Global perspective

Don't know. When I was younger I was more global. I was interested in politics and what was going on in the world. As I've gotten older I've found that I'm happier focusing on my own little world!

hard vs. soft demeanor

That's easy - hard. I'm definately a Type A.


Mainstream vs. Counter-Culture attitude:

Easy - Mainstream. I dislike the counter-culture scene.


Hmmm.....

[INTJMom]

...

Hmmm.....Does your husband ever tell you that you jump to conclusions on shreds of evidence that are too tiny? (this would be a possible short-coming he might see in you)

[ygolo]

You are seeming rather ESTJ to me.

But a few more questions, if you don't mind:

If you went to college, how did you choose your major? How often did you switch?

What were your extracurriculars in school?

What do you do to relax, now?

[alicia91]

Does your husband ever tell you that you jump to conclusions on shreds of evidence that are too tiny? (this would be a possible short-coming he might see in you)

Yes! But I'll defend myself and say that my conclusions often end up being correct. But sometimes I jump to a negative conclusion when it was unnecessary. For example, I had a physical this week and a few days later someone from the doc's office called and left a message on my machine. Until I could get back to them I was freaking out thinking that I had a major disease. However, they just needed to confirm my insurance!

If you went to college, how did you choose your major? How often did you switch?

I went to college to study economics originally. I think the idea was that I was going to eventually study law. I'm also very interested in money so it made sense at the time. But I found economics too 'dry' and just lots of boring, old theories. So I switched to Political Science after the first year. I was interested but really couldn't imagine working in this field - what kind of a job would it lead to and I had lost my interest in law at that time. Eventually I had a major family situation (became estranged from my father who was putting me through school) and had to drop out. To make a long story short I ended up switching colleges and after much soul-searching decided that I wanted a more hands-on, practical career - so I went to design school and have a degree in interior design.

What were your extracurriculars in school?

Not many in grade school, my parents didn't encourage it and wouldn't drive me anywhere or pay for anything. I mostly played with friends in the neighborhood. I do remember playing soccer on a team in middle-school, trying to play in the band (Yuck!) and taking drama lessons (yuck!) and was on the Long-Distance running team (which I liked). In high-school I was on the Pep Squad, but that was about it since I was too busy socializing and hanging out with friends.


What do you do to relax, now?

Shop, hang out with my kids, go out with my husband for dinner and/or drinks, read books - self-help, gardening, cooking, personal finance/investments, wines, downhill ski, go to hockey games (we have season tickets), go to the club (pool & golf), this past summer I took golf lessons which I enjoyed, hiking, travelling (but I like familiar places best - Florida Keys, Sedona, Walt Disney World, Disneyland, Charleston, Myrtle Beach - I basically rotate those trips). I'm also a huge amusement park fan - every year I hit Disney, Cedar Point, King's Island and Canada's Wonderland. I'm also really into water-parks. So I don't really relax too much! Actually I don't relax .... period..... except when sleeping! LOL

[alicia91]

And the winner is:

ESFJ

I'm not going to give all the details as to why this is correct, but I will say that a couple of tests REALLY helped with this. One is the test that gives you your actual type, your desired type (not the correct terminology I realize). But it highlighted the fact that I'm trying (without realizing it) to be more T than I am. I admire T'ness, but I'm a master at rationalizing my own opinions and making them seem T-like.


I belive that some of the confusion also stems from a weak (borderline) E and J . Of course, it's not 100% but close enough. :)

[Athenian200]

And the winner is:

ESFJ

I'm not going to give all the details as to why this is correct, but I will say that a couple of tests REALLY helped with this. One is the test that gives you your actual type, your desired type (not the correct terminology I realize). But it highlighted the fact that I'm trying (without realizing it) to be more T than I am. I admire T'ness, but I'm a master at rationalizing my own opinions and making them seem T-like.


I belive that some of the confusion also stems from a weak (borderline) E and J . Of course, it's not 100% but close enough. :)

That does make some sense. You don't quite seem cold enough to be an ST, but do seem a bit more driven/organized than a typical SF... which makes you seem more T. And the tertiary Ne explains why you're interested in this so much. Pretty good, actually. But don't feel bad if you're not sure 100%... I don't think anyone ever really is.

[alicia91]

And the tertiary Ne explains why you're interested in this so much

I believe so. And I think my Ne is really developing and I've read that tends to happen in middle-age (yikes!).

From TypeLogic:

Strong, contradictory forces consume the ESFJ. Their sense of right and wrong wrestles with an overwhelming rescuing, 'mothering' drive. This sometimes results in swift, immediate action taken upon a transgressor, followed by stern reprimand; ultimately, however, the prodigal is wrested from the gallows of their folly, just as the noose tightens and all hope is lost, by the very executioner!

An ESFJ at odds with self is a remarkable sight. When a decision must be made, especially one involving the risk of conflict (abhorrent to ESFJs), there ensues an in-house wrestling match between the aforementioned black-and-white Values and the Nemesis of Discord. The contender pits self against self, once firmly deciding with the Right, then switching to Prudence to forestall hostilities, countered by unswerving Values, ad exhaustium, winner take all.

This in incredibly accurate and insightful!

[alicia91]

(I'm going to use this post as a journal of my discoveries for the time being. Feel free to comment or not).

I'm still not satisfied. It's like the 'real me' still hasn't been discovered. Again, I'm probably just too old for this to be accurate. Lately I've been getting several N results. I just can't seem to seperate my 'natural inclination' with 'what I've been conditioned to be over the years.' At this point I suspect that I've become more S, and J over the years. I'm not saying I'm not naturally either of those, but I've also been pushed in that direction.

Yesterday on the CareerStrength test I got:

The temperment pattern you rated highest:

Theorist (NT) Strategist Talent

The temperment pattern you rated second:

Improviser (SP) Tactical Talent

No wonder I'm so lost in all of this! :doh:

I also did the Enneagram test and turned out to be:

3 (with my next score a tie between a 4 & 6, with 8 also quite close)

For some reason I found the Enneagram test questions a bit easier to answer than typical MBTI - not sure why that is. I'm not too thrilled with 3 being the winner since it seems shallow and neurotic :huh:


Well, that's it for now.

[alcea rosea]

My suggestion:

Read a lot of MBTI type descriptions! That way I found my type, not through tests but lots of studying, self reflection and thinking it over. The type that seems best, closest and the most familiar to you is probably your type. It can take time!

I first thought I was ESTJ (according to first of internet tests I did), then reading the descriptions I thought I was more ESFJ like. Then I read more and thought that I'm not as giving as ESFJ's. Then I thought I was ENFJ but that was too good to be true. After all that I found ENFP, realized that I was feeling type, understood what intuition meant (in MBTI) and accepted my P'ness. So, I found my type. It took some 6 months or so. (Even if I still think I might be ENFx sometimes ;).

Good luck in your search! :thumbup:

[alicia91]

Thanks Alcearos! I think that's what I'm going to do. Just explore and take my time.

But it's always SOMETHING that doesn't line up with the tests or descriptions. For example, I get the letters figured out ...........E--X--T--J then when they are all put together and I read about the type as a whole I think 'Whoa.......that is so NOT me!'

Side-note - about the NT findings: in many ways it's true that I'm very attracted to theories (that's why I'm here!) and classification systems yet at the same time I'm quite status and appearance concious and tend to follow the trends (clothing, hair styles, cosmetics etc.) a bit more than I suspect most NT's do. I also have good social skills and I'm reading that many NT's don't 'care' much about stuff like that and I certainly do. On the other hand I'm much more rational than a Feeler.........so the cycle continues.

Edit - I also have to mention an incident when I was very young that I think is reflective of me before I was too 'conditioned.' I have a late birthday so my parents took me to a Kindergarten 'readiness' evaluation. THe tester asked me to draw a self-portrait. My parents were chatting with her while I was drawing. After quite some time I was just finishing up. I had drawn a giant cruise ship that covered the entire page and had drawn a teeny-tiny stick figure of myself as the captain. The tester was quite mortified but my parents thought it was quite funny. I've always wanted to 'do my own thing' or is it a 'control thing?' But as I got older and cared more about what people thought I learned to resist doing things like that because I realized that doing what you are supposed to do gave me more academic success and academic success is critically important.

[alicia91]

I've been thinking about the 'big picture' versus 'small picture' concept and I think I've had a major revelation about my job. As I've mentioned earlier I've recently (in the past two years) started my own business as an interior designer working by myself out of my home. This was after staying home with my kids for 15 years. Between college and having kids, I worked in a home furnishings store as a sales person and it was OK. I'm good at small-talk and talking about products though I hated the 'pressure to sell' aspect since I'm totally against selling people things they don't need. Anyhow, I've concluded that I'm definately a 'big picture' person and in terms of design I get a good feel for a space and the concept of what needs to be done with it is what I LOVE to do. What's the problem? Most of being an interior designer these days is DETAILS - gold fringe or red?, 6" border of 4"?, light cherry or dark cherry - how wide, not to mention the nitty gritty business skills I hate - accounting, keeping track of receipts, taxes and on and on. I'd like to be the designer that just comes in, dreams up the concept and the major space planning and leaves the rest to the subordinates. Unfortunately I have no subordinates! Am I 'good' at the details.........YES I am. I HAVE to be and I've been TRAINED to be.

So am I more P than I thought? Yet I'm strongly 'security seeking' and worried about future stability. Hmmm....

[alicia91]

Nope - changed my mind about NT and P already!

I've almost done a complete circle and am back to the ISFJ/ESFJ categories. I think I'm just weak J and close to the center on most of the others also. By now I kind of feel like the Sybil of the MBTI world. :devil:

[alcea rosea]

Try reading all E descriptions if you are still unhappy with the result.

But if you are happy with ESFJ, then that's it. :)

[alicia91]

Forced hubby to sit down with me today and go over all of it with me. It was torture for him (ENTJ with ADHD) but he knows me better than anyone else.

1) He laughed his ass off when I told him I thought I was Extraverted. He said something to the effect of 'just because you go out for lunch once a weak with your girlfriends and say hello to the cashiers at the grocery store in no way makes you Extraverted........ (roaring laughter)' Okie-dokie then.

2) Definately S - but I kind of knew that.

3) T vs F - a bit harder but he claims that I'm more F than T. I make decisions based on how I feel rather than cold hard logic. But he says I have a way of making my decisions SOUND completely rational and logical so I come across as T. I think he's right. I also think that my F might be somewhat weak.

4) He was so surprised that I hadn't figured this one out. J v P. He says I'm P but with enough J that I'm trying to improve my J skills and have to a large degree but I'm still P no matter how hard I try. Some examples he gave was when I moved from Canada to the US it took me about 5 years to close all my Canadian bank accounts, I'm still a Canadian citizen even though I've been here for 17 years - (just in case I want to move back). Despite this I have enough J to make me CARE about being organized and because I'm very picky about my surroundings I spent considerable time working on them. Yet details still can stress me out.

I've read some of the online versions of ISFP and the one at Bestfittype sounds JUST like me, though other ones like Typelogic aren't so accurate. However, I have the book Do What You Are and the chapter in there that describes this type is very accurate, so it's definately a possibility.

My husband said that the four most obvious characteristics about me are 'Talent in Visual-Spatial Skills' (can easily visualize in 3-D in my mind) and 'Fact-Finder Researcher' (I have extensive facts about things like plants that bloom in August stored on the computer) and 'More of a Consultant than Doer' (lose interest after the start-up phase) and 'Always looking out for Other's Best Interests' (give lots of good common-sense advice and support to people around me).

I think this makes a lot of sense but I'm not willing to declare it just yet! I guess what is stopping me is the whole Artisian image. Yes, I have STRONG visual-spatial skills, but I'm in no way a 'fine-artist.' The guy with the beret at mypersonality really freaks me out!

[alicia91]

Still thinking about this.

At this point I'm going to say that I'm a P. It seems to line up best with the way I was when I was young. I've definately picked up a lot of J traits over the years but I think they are 'learned' or something that I do in times of stress OR they just plain make sense. I know in some ways I can be a bit anal-retentive and this is what made me originally think I was a J, however it's not what I do naturally. For example, I'm VERY picky about my surroundings - I want to be in a calm, warm atmosphere in my home. Therefore when I see a giant pile of laundry, it upsets my environment and reminds me of unfinished tasks. I tidy my bathroom because I want it to look like a spa. So I devise all sorts of routines to allow me to have the environment that I want but I'm not naturally good at keeping it up - the cycle goes on and on and it takes a huge effort. Of course I'm not entirely P -the latest test said about 64% which still leaves a lot of J. ;)

[alicia91]

I'm leaving the ISFP for right now......but doubts have crept in again. I finally read all the information on that Lenore Wikipedia site and after that...I'm more confused than ever. While reading it, I took notes and felt that I could very much relate to several of the functions and I was so happy I felt like I was getting somewhere. Then I stopped and looked how it matched up to my original 8 functions test that Splittet recommended - ha! they are completely different.

First let me say that I did not understand the section on Feeling and couldn't decipher at all if I am more Fi or Fe- didn't feel any connection at all but it was probably the way it was written. I completely related to Ni, Ti (in no particular order). Now, I also relate strongly with Si and I realize that the more stressed out and anxious I am the stronger the Si gets. Since I feel stressed and slightly anxious A LOT it's hard to say if it's my natural self or a real problem. I guess I have to think back to a happy peaceful time in my life (when the heck was that?).

So if you put Si, Ni and Ti together - what do you get? :shock:

Today I was once again asked asked to be a moderator at a forum that I have participated in for a couple of years. This is the third time a board owner (different boards) has PMed asking me to do this because they usually claim that I'm "calm, not overly opinionated yet speak my mind, rational but sensitive to people's feelings" Maybe they are just saying this and are simply desperate for suckers to moderate? ;)

Any of you have any vibes about me?

Maybe I should just give this up? LOL

[Splittet]

I actually think you are ISTP rather than ISFP, which would mean your primary function, is Ti, a function you stated you identify with. One of the main reasons why you should really consider ISTP is actually that you are female. Because of gender roles many females of thinking types will find it hard to type themselves as Ts. Generally female Ts are more balanced than male Ts, and male Fs more balanced than female Fs. In a way T is a male perspective, while F is a female perspective. That means female Ts very much have the F perspective in them because of their gender, which might confuse things somewhat. My theory anyway. :P

[alicia91]

Thank you (again!) Splittet, what you say makes a lot of sense. I guess a few things have made me discount ISTP. First my husband has professionally tested as ENTJ but now sometimes tests as ESTJ and compared to him - I'm a big wimp! For example when the kids misbehave he immediately goes into punishment mode "to your room!" "you are grounded" whereas I want to sit with them and calmly hear their side and talk about the underlying issues - "why were you so frusterated you hit your brother?" Perhaps that's just my 'femaleness?' And his T is strong!

Also ISTP's are often depicted as mechanics and having a tool in their hand - hmm...not me other thant he fact that I am a very 'hands-on' interior designer. I hang up pictures, move furniture, install curtains etc. but I have a handyman do the big things. But I wonder if that's a gender-role thing? Maybe I COULD do it - I just haven't really tried - but the interest certainly is there.

I noticed that the tertiary for ISTP is Ni (which I really relate to) and I'm middle-aged (yikes!) so I guess that makes sense.

[quietgirl]

Still thinking about this.

At this point I'm going to say that I'm a P. It seems to line up best with the way I was when I was young. I've definately picked up a lot of J traits over the years but I think they are 'learned' or something that I do in times of stress OR they just plain make sense. I know in some ways I can be a bit anal-retentive and this is what made me originally think I was a J, however it's not what I do naturally. For example, I'm VERY picky about my surroundings - I want to be in a calm, warm atmosphere in my home. Therefore when I see a giant pile of laundry, it upsets my environment and reminds me of unfinished tasks. I tidy my bathroom because I want it to look like a spa. So I devise all sorts of routines to allow me to have the environment that I want but I'm not naturally good at keeping it up - the cycle goes on and on and it takes a huge effort. Of course I'm not entirely P -the latest test said about 64% which still leaves a lot of J. ;)

I'd say P because you're having trouble picking a type & sticking to it. J's tend to be satisfied with a decision more easily than P's.

My ENFP best friend is VERY particular about her surroundings and as far from J as you can get. She's actually more tidy than I am with her room & I'm a J. Messiness is a tough thing to measure.

[alicia91]

I'd say P because you're having trouble picking a type & sticking to it


It's kind of fun to introduce myself as a different type each week! ;)

I'm pretty sure about the I (though I'm quite close to the middle, some tests measure me as E but I know that I'm more I), the S, and the P.

I think that some S types are quite tidy. My feeling is that many S's are quite sensitive and particular about their environment and want a certain harmony around them - and a big pile of laundry kind of spoils it!

[Randomnity]

I think that some S types are quite tidy. My feeling is that many S's are quite sensitive and particular about their environment and want a certain harmony around them - and a big pile of laundry kind of spoils it!
I can't speak for S types in general, I'm not even sure of my type really, but I'm like this. Mess bothers me and I tend to keep my room fairly clean (ironically, way tidier than my INFJ and ESFJ roommates'). I can't study if my room's messy, it's too uncomfortable...

[alicia91]

I can't speak for S types in general, I'm not even sure of my type really, but I'm like this. Mess bothers me and I tend to keep my room fairly clean (ironically, way tidier than my INFJ and ESFJ roommates'). I can't study if my room's messy, it's too uncomfortable...

Me too! I can't cook in a messy kitchen either. This confused me for a long time and made me think that I was a J - but I'm not.

[JustDave]

Me too! I can't cook in a messy kitchen either. This confused me for a long time and made me think that I was a J - but I'm not.

Ahh yes, to quote myself :devil:

Ugly house = ugly mood.

I know how you feel.

[alicia91]

Exactly!! :yes:

I think I've seen some other SP-types on this board say the same thing.

[alicia91]

Been thinking some more about the ISTP type, and while I relate to a lot of the general thought patterns, the overall description seems off. But ISTP makes SENSE because of the functions but is it just that I have high F that it seems off? The ISTP profile is generally written as a masculine type who does skilled-trades, likes weapons, the strong-silent type, good with tools and machinery. I'm just really............. girly-girly. My image is more French manicures and high heels.

Maybe I just need to read about women ISTPs?

[alcea rosea]

The leading functions are different with ISTP's and ISFP's.
Which seems more familiar to you? Supportin is the same with both.

ISTP

Leading: Introverted Thinking: Analyzing, categorizing, and evaluating according to principles
Supporting: Extraverted Sensing: Experiencing and acting in the immediate context.


Introverted Thinking
Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point. Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it. It also involves an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles. These can then be used in problem solving, analysis, and refining of a product or an idea. This process is evidenced in behaviors like taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work. The analysis involves looking at different sides of an issue and seeing where there is inconsistency. In so doing, we search for a “leverage point” that will fix problems with the least amount of effort or damage to the system. We engage in this process when we notice logical inconsistencies between statements and frameworks, using a model to evaluate the likely accuracy of what’s observed.


ISFP

Leading: Introverted Feeling: Valuing and considering importance, beliefs, and worth
Supporting: Extraverted Sensing: Experiencing and acting in the immediate context.


Introverted Feeling
It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.

[alicia91]

I'm going to have to think about this - I can really relate to both. :doh: However, it would make more sense to me if I was leading with S rather than either of those two. Maybe I'm just ISXP and that's as close as I'll ever get - nevermind the seperate functions?

[alcea rosea]

I'm going to have to think about this - I can really relate to both. :doh: However, it would make more sense to me if I was leading with S rather than either of those two. Maybe I'm just ISXP and that's as close as I'll ever get - nevermind the seperate functions?

Remember that the first function of introverted person cannot be seen outside.

Si would make you ISTJ or ISFJ. I find ISTJ's extremely proper and ISFJ's extremely tender hearted. Some descriptions, here you go. ;)

ISTJ:

Leading: Introverted Sensing: Reviewing and recalling past experiences and seeking detailed data
Supporting: Extraverted Thinking: Segmenting, organizing for efficiency, and systematizing


ISFJ

Leading: Introverted Sensing: Reviewing and recalling past experiences and seeking detailed data
Supporting: Extraverted Feeling: Connecting and considering others and the group


Introverted Sensing
Type Myers-Briggs
ISTJ SiTeFiNe SeTiFeNi Introvert Sensing
ISFJ SiFeTiNe SeFiTeNi Introvert Sensing

Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones. The immediate experience or words are instantly linked with the prior experiences, and we register a similarity or a difference

[alicia91]

Thanks Alcearos - you are so helpful. :)

I've ruled out ISTJ a while ago. I have none of that need for outside structure, details, rules, etc. Just no.

ISFJ - that was my original thought when I came to the board. But I'm just not that giving, not big on social formalities, conformity etc. Actually I'm fairly conventional myself but I don't necessarily think it;s a GOOD thing. I'm very open-minded.

I thought that MBTI would be so useful as a tool to learn more about myself and my possibilities but inevitably what happens is I figure out the pieces - the I, the S etc. but when I put them all together they don't resemble me enough to be really useful. Last I checked I was something like:

55%I, 74%S, 51%F, 65%P

[quietgirl]

I think that some S types are quite tidy. My feeling is that many S's are quite sensitive and particular about their environment and want a certain harmony around them - and a big pile of laundry kind of spoils it!

I can see that! I tend not to notice my environment much until my boyfriend points out the cup that's been sitting on the counter for a week... oops!

I can usually study, work, whatever regardless of how my external environment looks - though I will say that I feel a lot better when it's tidy (maybe that's the inferior Se peeking out?). The problem I have is NOTICING that it's not tidy. The noticing usually comes days after I should've cleaned it! I'm not a very good J, hahaha.

To try and help you further with your analysis of type, do you feel really strongly about living and embodying your personal values? Both ISFP's I've dated and the INFP's in my family feel really strongly about being this way. Both of the ISFP's also would "act out" their Fi (really, their values) in forms of art and style. If my ISFP ex boyfriend felt strongly about animal rights, he would become a vegetarian to live what he valued. I could almost always guess his mood on how he would dress on any given day.

I guess a good distinction between ISTP and ISFP would be... do you feel your Se shows off your internal systems & thoughts or do you feel it shows off your feelings & values?

[alicia91]

Hmmm...

While I don't think I can relate to a strong internal purpose/values that I strive to follow. Of course I try to be a good person, and raise my kids with good values and morals but I wouldn't say that I have a particular inner philosophy that I'm following.

[INTJMom]

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/whats-my-type/2768-maybe-im-wrong-about-my-type.html

to Alicia's what's my type thread

[alicia91]

I think you might be right INTJMom (and several others) - I might very well be INFJ. I printed out the Murray State & Wayne State descriptions, studied them and highlighted the relevant sections. I'm not going to go too indepth right now about why it fits - I'm going to 'live with it' for a while first and not be too hasty to say that this is IT.

The Discordia test keeps placing me as an E - the latest being ENFJ so that's not completey ruled out, but something tells me that it's a bit off because it just seems too out there and I'm fairly reserved (I like small talk and chit-chat but I don't reveal much at all). I also relate to some aspects of the INTJ especially the section in the Murray State that says:

To a casual visitor, the home may seem neat, but its more private corners reflect a series of half-started projects, collections of momentos, and an assortment of potential challenges: a guitar to be mastered, a file to be organized, a household repair to be made.

Very me! Also the part about both conceptual and practical interests. I'm a future thinker but also heavily practical.

The main reasons that I question INFJ is that I'm not a gifted writer at all, and verbally I do OK but I wouldn't call either one a gift.

That's all for now.

[INTJMom]

I think you might be right INTJMom (and several others) - I might very well be INFJ. I printed out the Murray State & Wayne State descriptions, studied them and highlighted the relevant sections. I'm not going to go too indepth right now about why it fits - I'm going to 'live with it' for a while first and not be too hasty to say that this is IT.

The Discordia test keeps placing me as an E - the latest being ENFJ so that's not completey ruled out, but something tells me that it's a bit off because it just seems too out there and I'm fairly reserved (I like small talk and chit-chat but I don't reveal much at all). I also relate to some aspects of the INTJ especially the section in the Murray State that says:


Very me! Also the part about both conceptual and practical interests. I'm a future thinker but also heavily practical.

The main reasons that I question INFJ is that I'm not a gifted writer at all, and verbally I do OK but I wouldn't call either one a gift.

That's all for now.I don't think you're getting a correct result from that test.

Didn't you think you were an S at first? I think you're too practical to be an N, and some of the things you said in response to the questions yesterday led me to believe S.

I just wasn't sure about the P or J.
Not all J types have an orderly home.
They might want it neat or prefer it that way but there could be tons of reasons why it's not.

If I were you, I would check out ISFP and ISFJ.
I think you're one of those.

Don't forget to think about how you were when you were young, since you begin to balance out at age 25, but you don't ever go from one type to another.

[alicia91]

Thanks Mom. I thought yesterday you were suggesting INFJ for me? So I investigated the N-types.

I guess at this point I'm about ready to throw in the towel. There seems to be no type that sees possibiliites, is very future oriented, yet is also practical. My entire life revolves around self-improvement, self-discovery, imagining and designing spaces, etc.

Didn't you think you were an S at first?

For years I thought I was INTJ. But when I first came here I thought I was an S for several reasons. But none of it fits well enough to be useful to me in the slightest.

I've gotten a lot of great suggestions and input from everybody but a lot of it is conflicting. SOme say 'answer it like you were a late teen or early 20's' others say 'answer it like you think not act' still others say 'answer the question they way you actually ACT not think or wish' When I went through the Discordia questions using my thoughts from my early 20's I was clearly an N and also more outgoing than I am now. I'm also more S-like now in my 40's.

Any kind of SJ is absolutely out of the question, ISFP is an OK fit but still doesn't capture the real me. As much as I think this is interesting, and I've identifies all three of my kids, my parents and severl friends - I can simply not use this system for myself. I'm not one of the types - I must be the unknown 17th one that is yet to be discovered. :(

[cascadeco]

Any kind of SJ is absolutely out of the question, ISFP is an OK fit but still doesn't capture the real me. :(

Alicia, I don't think ANY of the types are going to capture the 'real you'. There's a lot outside of type that type cannot account for. Any of us on here could write volumes about our lives and ourselves. How can all of it, including our experiences, be captured in any 2 page blurb?

I do think a lot of your confusion is tied towards your having matured over time. Also, just the general stereotypes behind the E/I, T/F, etc functions. Like INTJMom said, J's aren't always gonna have clean spaces. When you get down to little details like that, not everything is going to line up, and differences between people of the same type will emerge.

There are numerous 'little' differences between one of my INFJ friends and myself. I mean, for example, she can be quite scatterbrained at times, and I don't think I am, and her house isn't nearly as clean as I keep mine...because she doesn't care about that. BUT we're both the same type, and as far as cognitive functions go, and how we interact with others, and how we perceive the world around us and how we think, etc, we're SO similar. It's like our brains are in sync. We're 'twins' in much of our internal and behavioral sense..but external details..yeah, there are definite differences.

I know from your earlier posts, and when you first came in here, you were pretty certain on the Introvert Sensing piece....so I think that's a pretty solid start, and is probably more the real you, and from everything you've written, at least the I S makes sense to me.

It's when you start overanalyzing all this stuff that it's easy to get confused and you start identifying with pieces of every one of the types!!! I know I have done that in the past, but once I stop thinking about all of it for a while, let go, and reflect on a lifetime of my behaviors, I feel I have a better sense for what my overall 'type' is.

[INTJMom]

Thanks Mom. I thought yesterday you were suggesting INFJ for me? So I investigated the N-types.Oops. :blush: Sorry.

I guess at this point I'm about ready to throw in the towel. There seems to be no type that sees possibilities, is very future oriented, yet is also practical. My entire life revolves around self-improvement, self-discovery, imagining and designing spaces, etc.

Any kind of SJ is absolutely out of the question, ISFP is an OK fit but still doesn't capture the real me. :(Any type description is only going to describe you about 85% of the way. I don't think anyone feels 100% described by any profile.

What do you mean by self-improvement? Could you describe it a little?

[INTJMom]

Alicia, I don't think ANY of the types are going to capture the 'real you'. There's a lot outside of type that type cannot account for. Any of us on here could write volumes about our lives and ourselves. How can all of it, including our experiences, be captured in any 2 page blurb?

I do think a lot of your confusion is tied towards your having matured over time. Also, just the general stereotypes behind the E/I, T/F, etc functions. Like INTJMom said, J's aren't always gonna have clean spaces. When you get down to little details like that, not everything is going to line up, and differences between people of the same type will emerge.

There are numerous 'little' differences between one of my INFJ friends and myself. I mean, for example, she can be quite scatterbrained at times, and I don't think I am, and her house isn't nearly as clean as I keep mine...because she doesn't care about that. BUT we're both the same type, and as far as cognitive functions go, and how we interact with others, and how we perceive the world around us and how we think, etc, we're SO similar. It's like our brains are in sync. We're 'twins' in much of our internal and behavioral sense..but external details..yeah, there are definite differences.

I know from your earlier posts, and when you first came in here, you were pretty certain on the Introvert Sensing piece....so I think that's a pretty solid start, and is probably more the real you, and from everything you've written, at least the I S makes sense to me.

It's when you start overanalyzing all this stuff that it's easy to get confused and you start identifying with pieces of every one of the types!!! I know I have done that in the past, but once I stop thinking about all of it for a while, let go, and reflect on a lifetime of my behaviors, I feel I have a better sense for what my overall 'type' is.Excellent post. I concur.

[alicia91]

I edited my other post a little.


Any type description is only going to describe you about 85% of the way. I don't think anyone feels 100% described by any profile.

I realize that, but none of them are capturing my basic core essence. I think my age and the fact that I usually score close to center on several traits has something to do with my problem finding my MBTI 'home.'

What do you mean by self-improvement? Could you describe it a little?

The main thing about me is that I look at everything 'as it could be' not as it is and certainly not 'as it was.' What I'm really good at is looking at possibilites, looking at the present reality and building a bridge, or a plan to get from current reality to future goal. When I first came on the board and talked about this looking to the future, what can be stuff, I know Xander mentioned that this reminded him of his ENFJ sister, but I think it was overshadowed by my S-like interests, and down-to-earth style.

In terms of my plan - in most cases, I form my own plan to get there, in other cases I research and find out the 'best' way. I do this with everything - this is why I'm here at MBTI Central. I want to use MBTI theory to improve myself - be the best I can be, learn about myself and others around me - help me understand them better and therefore improve my relations. Maybe there are things about me that I don't know yet so I was hoping that this system might help? I love to explore self-help books - currently working on The Four Agreements and Coach Yourself to Success. I have a tendency to do this with everything. I'm doing OK financially - how can I do better? Do I need a plan, a system, a book, a website? My kids are getting B+s in school, how can they get A's? I know, I will take them to a tutor. My house is a mess, and I'm picky about my environment, but I'm not naturally organized so what do I do? Read 6 books about housecleaning, sign up for Flylady emails (none of which work but hey, I tried). My marriage is mediocre though hubby and I are soulmates, so now I'm posting on marriage websites because I need to fix it or at the very least understand our differences. I feel inadequate becasue I don't have enough interesting things to talk about so I thought 'I need to take up some new hobbies' so I'm now playing golf and skiing. So I'm always 'plugging holes.'

I'm also all about improvement of my external environment, actually all environments. When I see a space I immediately can see in my mind how it would look and more importantly how it would feel if I could only...move the furniture, paint, get new flooring, knock out a wall etc. When I pull up to some place I can't help to notice the gardening - "it would be nice if." THis is what I do for a living - I'm an Interior Designer.

That's a brief outline of my version of self-improvement.

I know from your earlier posts, and when you first came in here, you were pretty certain on the Introvert Sensing piece....so I think that's a pretty solid start, and is probably more the real you, and from everything you've written, at least the I S makes sense to me.

If I am an IS-type then it has to be ISFP. It's the closest but it doesn't contain my CORE traits - the looking at possibilities, the 'what can be piece' that is so central to my being. Looked at ISTP recently and even if I look at the non-mechanical descriptions, it just doesn't resonate. ISFJ - nope. ISTJ- absolutely not.

[INTJMom]

I edited my other post a little.

I realize that, but none of them are capturing my basic core essence. I think my age and the fact that I usually score close to center on several traits has something to do with my problem finding my MBTI 'home.' I agree.

The main thing about me is that I look at everything 'as it could be' not as it is and certainly not 'as it was.' What I'm really good at is looking at possibilites, looking at the present reality and building a bridge, or a plan to get from current reality to future goal. When I first came on the board and talked about this looking to the future, what can be stuff, I know Xander mentioned that this reminded him of his ENFJ sister, but I think it was overshadowed by my S-like interests, and down-to-earth style.

In terms of my plan - in most cases, I form my own plan to get there, in other cases I research and find out the 'best' way. I do this with everything - this is why I'm here at MBTI Central. I want to use MBTI theory to improve myself - be the best I can be, learn about myself and others around me - help me understand them better and therefore improve my relations. Maybe there are things about me that I don't know yet so I was hoping that this system might help? I love to explore self-help books - currently working on The Four Agreements and Coach Yourself to Success. I have a tendency to do this with everything. I'm doing OK financially - how can I do better? Do I need a plan, a system, a book, a website? My kids are getting B+s in school, how can they get A's? I know, I will take them to a tutor. My house is a mess, and I'm picky about my environment, but I'm not naturally organized so what do I do? Read 6 books about housecleaning, sign up for Flylady emails (none of which work but hey, I tried). My marriage is mediocre though hubby and I are soulmates, so now I'm posting on marriage websites because I need to fix it or at the very least understand our differences. I feel inadequate becasue I don't have enough interesting things to talk about so I thought 'I need to take up some new hobbies' so I'm now playing golf and skiing. So I'm always 'plugging holes.'

I'm also all about improvement of my external environment, actually all environments. When I see a space I immediately can see in my mind how it would look and more importantly how it would feel if I could only...move the furniture, paint, get new flooring, knock out a wall etc. When I pull up to some place I can't help to notice the gardening - "it would be nice if." THis is what I do for a living - I'm an Interior Designer.

That's a brief outline of my version of self-improvement.Okay. Let me qualify my next statement by saying, I'm totally at a loss. That description sounds just like an ENTP friend of mine!

If I am an IS-type then it has to be ISFP. It's the closest but it doesn't contain my CORE traits - the looking at possibilities, the 'what can be piece' that is so central to my being. Looked at ISTP recently and even if I look at the non-mechanical descriptions, it just doesn't resonate. ISFJ - nope. ISTJ- absolutely not.Quite a conundrum.

[alicia91]

Yep - I'm the yet - undiscovered 17th type. ;) Don't want to get into a long-sob story about my life, but looking back I had a weird upbringing, raised in a an alcoholic family that was full of conflict, unsupportive parents, etc. so who knows which things are inborn and what's learned.

Well, even if I can't find myself, I did find my kids and am enjoying the Nurture by Nature book. :)

[alcea rosea]

One suggestion is that you let the question of your best fit type rest for a while. Let your subconcious work and maybe after some time you'll figure out your type. Don't take too much pressure about it because it might make your search more difficult. :)

[INTJMom]

Forced hubby to sit down with me today and go over all of it with me. It was torture for him (ENTJ with ADHD) but he knows me better than anyone else.

1) He laughed his ass off when I told him I thought I was Extraverted. He said something to the effect of 'just because you go out for lunch once a weak with your girlfriends and say hello to the cashiers at the grocery store in no way makes you Extraverted........ (roaring laughter)' Okie-dokie then.

2) Definately S - but I kind of knew that.

3) T vs F - a bit harder but he claims that I'm more F than T. I make decisions based on how I feel rather than cold hard logic. But he says I have a way of making my decisions SOUND completely rational and logical so I come across as T. I think he's right. I also think that my F might be somewhat weak.

4) He was so surprised that I hadn't figured this one out. J v P. He says I'm P but with enough J that I'm trying to improve my J skills and have to a large degree but I'm still P no matter how hard I try. Some examples he gave was when I moved from Canada to the US it took me about 5 years to close all my Canadian bank accounts, I'm still a Canadian citizen even though I've been here for 17 years - (just in case I want to move back). Despite this I have enough J to make me CARE about being organized and because I'm very picky about my surroundings I spent considerable time working on them. Yet details still can stress me out.

I've read some of the online versions of ISFP and the one at Bestfittype sounds JUST like me, though other ones like Typelogic aren't so accurate. However, I have the book Do What You Are and the chapter in there that describes this type is very accurate, so it's definately a possibility.

My husband said that the four most obvious characteristics about me are 'Talent in Visual-Spatial Skills' (can easily visualize in 3-D in my mind) and 'Fact-Finder Researcher' (I have extensive facts about things like plants that bloom in August stored on the computer) and 'More of a Consultant than Doer' (lose interest after the start-up phase) and 'Always looking out for Other's Best Interests' (give lots of good common-sense advice and support to people around me).

I think this makes a lot of sense but I'm not willing to declare it just yet! I guess what is stopping me is the whole Artisian image. Yes, I have STRONG visual-spatial skills, but I'm in no way a 'fine-artist.' The guy with the beret at mypersonality really freaks me out!I had never seen this before, or at least, I don't remember it.

Asking someone who knows you well is a good idea.

Don't let the Artisan title mess you up. I happen to think that's a mis-fitting label for that type anyway. It doesn't have to mean "fine art" in my opinion. My husband is an ISTP and nobody would think him an "artisan". He's only an artisan when it comes to using duct tape. ;)

SP types are fun-loving. I knew an ISFP gal. She was highly intelligent, a great mom, liked working with her hands, was great at decorating her home. Her artistry included her hair and makeup. She had just the right touch for making herself beautiful.

I think you probably are ISFP based on what your husband said.

[alicia91]

Could very well be. :) However it only very shallowly describes me.

I've started to wonder if I have completely been misunderstanding the S-trait. Why do I so strongly think that I'm an S? Because I take my 'posssibilities' from the environment not from some psychic power within. I observe things then draw conclusions FROM it or using it (and adding things from within)- I've always thought that was S. Recently I asked my husband who is an N - what exactly is your N? Are you getting messages from God himself? Intuition to me seems like it's like some magic power. He explained that he takes bits of information, things he's observing, even his feelings about things and then combines it all and takes it to the next level. That's exactly what I do and call it Sensing. Am I misunderstanding something?

A while back when I posted about the 8 functions, I mentioned that I'm strongest in Ni, Ti and Si. Now after reading this:

How to Experience Different Function-Attitudes (http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exegesis/How_to_Experience_Different_Function-Attitudes)

I can safely say based on THAT that this is how it goes:

(in no particular order - haven't got that far yet)

The Yes's- Ni*, Fe*, Ti*, Ne
The Maybe's - Si, Te
The absolutely Nots - Te, Fi (if I force myself I can), Se (no stinking way)

I haven't always been so S-oriented in my interests either - I studied Political Psychology and Economics under the famed Dr. Paul Roazen (expert on Freud and political psychology) at York University for almost three years. But I took a break from it because I felt that while it was a strong interest, that my real talent was in helping others and that I needed to combine it with my strong visual-spatial skills. I'm starting to wonder if my S-interests have become part of my life due to being a SAHM for 16 years. Prior to that I was a member of Amnesty International and was a strong Libertarian (after being a strong Liberal) - what happened? Which is the real me? ha ha

When I was young I was extremely idealistic and was very strongly influenced by a teacher in HS who was very politically active and wanted to 'make a difference' in the world. He was a very active member of Amnesty International and the ACL. I was incredibly interested in this but when I came to college I found the professors to be only interested in the theories involved and not the humanitarian aspect which so strongly interested me. I don't think they gave a rats-ass that there was a famine in Africa and just prattled on about their theories. Yes, I found the theories interesting and I understand them perfectly well, but let's not just leave it at that. What are we going to do, how to we take the theories to the next level and DO SOMETHING? I remembered practically being ridiculed by prof. Roazen and others for daring to say 'so based on what you are telling us what do you think that as 20 year-olds here in Canada we can do to help?' He was like 'wtf?' It crushed my spirit to be honest. I realize now that my HS teacher was a strong feeler and most of my college profs were strong Ts (I think).

Edit - I'm not trying to convince myself or anyone else that I'm definately an N-type. I'm just exploring.

["?"]

It's kind of fun to introduce myself as a different type each week! ;)

I'm pretty sure about the I (though I'm quite close to the middle, some tests measure me as E but I know that I'm more I), the S, and the P.

I think that some S types are quite tidy. My feeling is that many S's are quite sensitive and particular about their environment and want a certain harmony around them - and a big pile of laundry kind of spoils it!From the Composer-Producer description at bestfittype.com Probably I’m the happiest when things are just a little different everyday. I don’t want to commit to any particular way to be. I want to be able to be a lot of ways. In my mind, I am peacefully assimilating myself to a lot of different situations, flowing easily between them all. Most people don’t understand there’s a lot going on inside. It’s always different, and if it’s not always different, it’s no fun.

[alicia91]

I belive that ISFP is probably closest to the way I act NOW except I'm incredibly future-oriented and always looking at possibilities and changes/improvements. I'm also a bit more driven and don't mind leadership - as I've mentioned, I'd rather lead than follow. But it's CLOSE and perhaps that's all that matters.

Frankly, when I was young, I was different than I am now but a lot has happened to me over the years......not sure which is the real me - now or then?

Anyhow, I'll keep the ISFP and see if it leads to any truths about myself or at least some interesting insight. :)

[INTJMom]

I belive that ISFP is probably closest to the way I act NOW except I'm incredibly future-oriented and always looking at possibilities and changes/improvements. I'm also a bit more driven and don't mind leadership - as I've mentioned, I'd rather lead than follow. But it's CLOSE and perhaps that's all that matters.

Frankly, when I was young, I was different than I am now but a lot has happened to me over the years......not sure which is the real me - now or then?

Anyhow, I'll keep the ISFP and see if it leads to any truths about myself or at least some interesting insight. :)When they say future oriented, they mean someone who's always thinking about years down the road and frankly, has difficulty living in the moment.

[alicia91]

When they say future oriented, they mean someone who's always thinking about years down the road and frankly, has difficulty living in the moment.

That's exactly how I am - completely focused on the future to the point of not being able to stop and smell the roses. But with age I'm forcing myself to.

[Splittet]

That's exactly how I am - completely focused on the future to the point of not being able to stop and smell the roses. But with age I'm forcing myself to.

This statement is actually quite INFJ. You mentioned that you identify most with Ni, Fe and Ti, which are the first three functions of INFJs (ENFJ is a possibility as well, but INFJ fits a little better). You have both Fi and Se in the no group, the two first functions of the ISFP, which basically makes it impossible that you are ISFP. As an ISFP your dominant function is Fi, and is that possible? It also makes ISTP very unlikely, because you have Se in the no group, and if ISTP, your Se is your second strongest function. Then again though, you might have misunderstood the functions, and your impressions might be wrong. But if you believe in these impressions, INFJ sounds most likely.

[cascadeco]

This statement is actually quite INFJ. You mentioned that you identify most with Ni, Fe and Ti, which are the first three functions of INFJs (ENFJ is a possibility as well, but INFJ fits a little better). You have both Fi and Se in the no group, the two first functions of the ISFP, which basically makes it impossible that you are ISFP. As an ISFP your dominant function is Fi, and is that possible? It also makes ISTP very unlikely, because you have Se in the no group, and if ISTP, your Se is your second strongest function. Then again though, you might have misunderstood the functions, and your impressions might be wrong. But if you believe in these impressions, INFJ sounds most likely.

The only thing I wonder about is that back on page 1 of this thread, when she took the cognitive function test, both Se and Si were well used (in the 30's), as were both Te and Ti, and both Ni and Ne were fairly weak (low 20's). Fe was well-used also. Now I do think you have to be *really* careful and not rely too much on this test, because a lot of it is more just what functions you're using right when you take the test...but it can provide a few general patterns, and I don't think I've ever seen it be TOO far off base (although I'm sure there are exceptions ;-).

It's hard to say. But anyway, I do agree ISFP, or any Fi-dominant type, is not likely, due to Fi not being high at all.

Alicia, I read your very first post. There are a few things in it, particularly in your younger years, that don't strike me as very INFJ-ish - specifically these points:
*when I was younger I was more outgoing - possibly an E, now that I'm 40 I've mellowed.
* as a kid I loved telling people what to do (was bossy). My mom claims that I was a bit like Angelica from Rugrats. I still like 'grabbing the bull by the horns' and taking over and doing things MY way., but it's certainly possible there were other factors back then that came into play.
** I'm great at giving advice - people tell me that I give the BEST advice on everything -relationships, careers, raising kids, etc. Because I'm good at it, I spend lots of time being an amateur psycologist to friends and family (which can be draining). I'm a great problem-solver.

[note: I'm only including this one because I'm not sure of your method of advice-giving. For example, myself and the INFJ's I know are much more apt to just listen, but not necessarily give advice per se - we don't just go into advice-giving mode; it's much more subtle and often only when we're asked for input - most of the time we just provide a listening ear. As for me personally, it's extremely rare that I give specific advice. I might give a different perspective or just general input, but that's usually about it. But other INFJ's may differ.]


Later you write:
I'm not into abstractions, theories

When I was younger (say a teen) I would have gotten involved and nagged her about his bad qualities, why she is too good for him and possibly tried to hook her up with someone better. Now that I'm older and have mostly concluded that nobody is perfect, and people need to WANT to change their situations THEMSELVES, I would let it go.

---------------

Obviously just my opinion, but I think you're probably at a point in life now where you're really exploring a lot of other avenues and functions, and you're quite balanced...which is a very good thing!:yes:

Does that make mbti a little less useful for you and what you're wanting out of it? Maybe. :huh:

I know I'm not of much help here, I just wanted to pull in some stuff from earlier in this thread.

[Gabe]

The only thing I wonder about is that back on page 1 of this thread, when she took the cognitive function test, both Se and Si were well used (in the 30's), as was both Te and Ti, and both Ni and Ne were fairly weak (low 20's). Fe was well-used also. Now I do think you have to be *really* careful and not rely too much on this test, because a lot of it is more just what functions you're using right when you take the test...but it can provide a few general patterns, and I don't think I've ever seen it be TOO far off base (although I'm sure there are exceptions ;-).

It's hard to say. But anyway, I do agree ISFP, or any Fi-dominant type, is not likely, due to Fi not being high at all.

Alicia, I read your very first post. There are a few things in it, particularly in your younger years, that don't strike me as very INFJ-ish - specifically these points:
*when I was younger I was more outgoing - possibly an E, now that I'm 40 I've mellowed.
* as a kid I loved telling people what to do (was bossy). My mom claims that I was a bit like Angelica from Rugrats. I still like 'grabbing the bull by the horns' and taking over and doing things MY way., but it's certainly possible there were other factors back then that came into play.
** I'm great at giving advice - people tell me that I give the BEST advice on everything -relationships, careers, raising kids, etc. Because I'm good at it, I spend lots of time being an amateur psycologist to friends and family (which can be draining). I'm a great problem-solver.

[note: I'm only including this one because I'm not sure of your method of advice-giving. For example, myself and the INFJ's I know are much more apt to just listen, but not necessarily give advice per se - we don't just go into advice-giving mode; it's much more subtle and often only when we're asked for input - most of the time we just provide a listening ear. As for me personally, it's extremely rare that I give specific advice. But other INFJ's may differ.]


Later you write:
I'm not into abstractions, theories

When I was younger (say a teen) I would have gotten involved and nagged her about his bad qualities, why she is too good for him and possibly tried to hook her up with someone better. Now that I'm older and have mostly concluded that nobody is perfect, and people need to WANT to change their situations THEMSELVES, I would let it go.

---------------

Obviously just my opinion, but I think you're probably at a point in life now where you're really exploring a lot of other avenues and functions, and you're quite balanced...which is a very good thing!:yes:

Does that make mbti a little less useful for you and what you're wanting out of it? Maybe. :huh:

I know I'm not of much help here, I just wanted to pull in some stuff from earlier in this thread.

Ok. I gotta say this. the double and triple asterisk statements are not contradctions, they match perfectly well with directing communication. I'll say more about this in another thread in just a sec...

[cascadeco]

Ok. I gotta say this. the double and triple asterisk statements are not contradctions, they match perfectly well with directing communication. I'll say more about this in another thread in just a sec...

I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to with this statement - but to be clear on my end, I don't think the bulleted comments contradict each other at all.

[alicia91]

The more I learn about MBTI the more I realize that just taking the quiz without a real deeper understanding of the functions will sometimes yield inaccurate results. Especially for someone like me who hates multiple-choice questions. I have a bad habit of not understanding what the question means because I can think of 5 different things it COULD mean. I have to remind myself to 'go with the most obvious.' And of course there is the whole thing of seeing ourselves accurately (obviously not my strong suit ;) .

No matter - I know that I'm borderline F versus T and I often end up having to use my T more in business. This morning I had a 4 hour marketing meeting and used T the whole time. I have to laugh though, I was actually advised to try to market myself in a more F manner because in my field that tends to appeal to the types who hire home designers. I've been purposely playing up the T in my marketing to appeal to the logic behind hiring a designer and the guy who spoke today convinced us that it's all about emotions. :doh:

[cascadeco]

Alicia, I can relate to your problems with figuring out your type! Also, I want to apologize just in case..I hope you haven't taken any of my posts in a bad way. I'm just trying to integrate your entire life into this, rather than just looking at how you are NOW, after having matured and grown as a person.

I definitely understand having issues with multiple choice tests. I also don't entirely trust my own perception of myself, so when I was first on this board I was often hesitant with my type, and seeking input, and even asked some people on the board directly whether they thought INFJ was accurate or not! So yeah..it can be frustrating.

[alicia91]

I feel that the first time I took the 8-functions test that I honestly wasn't interpreting the questions entirely correctly and also took it to mean how I function RIGHT NOW - and not necessarily over my entire life. BUt this is still an issue - I've gotten a lot of conflicting advice "do the tests based on how your function daily" (well to me that means NOW generally speaking) others tell me to "take the tests as if you were late teens or early 20's" still others say "take it based on what you think and not how you act" So which is it? I will get three different results based on the three different scenarios.

I'm not into abstractions, theories

I don't think I've ever said that I am into abstractions or theories. Well theories might not be true. I am interested in some theories just not abstract or philisopical ones. I like to read about religious theories (big fan of progressive Christian writing like Marcus Borg and John Shelby Spong), political theories, psychology (I'm here after all!). Right now I'm working on a presentation to give to a women's group on the Dynamics of Color (color theory). What I find boring and pointless is very abstract stuff like philosophy which most of the time doesn't seem to have a point and provides no results. When I took college level philosophy I kept thinking "hmm...and this is going to help me HOW??" I want to take action with what I've learned and apply it in some useful, purposeful way - often to help others (or at the very least- myself). This is what I mean by being practical.

The I versus N thing. Looking back over my entire life, I am kind of quiet in a large group yet have no problems speaking my mind when it's appropriate to do so (but I won't rock the boat just for the sake of rocking it). But I would have no trouble telling a group of fundamentalists that I'm Pro-Choice. I have also mentioned that I need both quiet time to recharge AND time to recharge by being with people. I also have no trouble leading and am actually more comfortable leading than following in most cases (except when I don't care about something) yet I do it in a low-key kind of way. I'm not particulary energetic or larger-than life like some extroverts that I am around. I think I can take these tests all day long and go back and forth depending on the questions about certain things like I verus E but bottom line is my 'gut' says that I'm more I. I'm not VERY I - just more I. The cocooning that Lenore talks about is also very true for me.

Also, I want to apologize just in case..I hope you haven't taken any of my posts in a bad way.

Nope - not at all. I know everyone is just trying to help and I really appreciate all of it. Whether I'm an ISFP, INFJ, ES...?? it really doesn't matter, I don't really care what the label is........I just want it to fit. I havent' purposely tried to steer one way or another......it's just happening for a few reasons I've already mentioned.

For example, myself and the INFJ's I know are much more apt to just listen, but not necessarily give advice per se - we don't just go into advice-giving mode; it's much more subtle and often only when we're asked for input - most of the time we just provide a listening ear. As for me personally, it's extremely rare that I give specific advice. But other INFJ's may differ

Fascinating. Yes, I would say that when someone comes to me with a problem I will listen intentely and let them get it out. But then I feel complelled to FIX them or resolve their issue. Like Dr. Phil (but kinder, gentler and in a more caring way), but I would have no trouble saying 'but is doing things the way you've always done working for you?' ;) I didn't speak to a family member for a month when she was going through a crisis because she would call me just to spill her guts and for the first 20 hours or so I just listened, but then I got sick of her just stagnating in this mess and I said 'you know I've listened to you for two weeks now, you are obviously very troubled, I love you and I want the best for you, but I'm not a professional......you need to seek counselling to you can move beyond this relationship.' I take people's problems very personally and couldn't sleep well while this was going on so I had to set a boundary. But people still call me and spill their guts so I guess I'm a good listener too.

One thing I mentioned when I first came here and it's a major trait of mine (that I'd like to revisit if anyone has any new insight)is the whole issue of being very single-minded. What I mean is that I tend to have only one focus at at time. For example if I have a big project at work let's say it's 20 hours of work. I would feel compelled to work on it for 20 hours all together. Rather than work on it for 4 hours a day for 5 days. I might hardly get any sleep, I might barely take a shower, my mind will be consumed by this task until it comes to a logical ending point. I also go in these spurts with my interests - where all I can focus on is X for two weeks, then I lose X and go on to Y, X often comes back again (but not always). I think I missed a month of my life when I was 13 because I went to the library and got 10 books on The Beatles, stayed in my room the whole time reading and only came out for meals and bathroom breaks. Ok, I can hide it and work around it and I'm actually happier now that I'm allowing myself to have this work style. A doctor once told me that this was 'hyperfocusing' and asked me if I had any other symptoms of ADD but I don't. But this could just be a weird personal quirk and have nothing to do with MBTI. I've asked my husband "do you think I have time managment problems?" and he says "you are an enigma" - on the one hand stuff gets done when you are in that MOOD, but then it might be 6 months before you are in that MOOD again! But you are productive every day in some capacity."

[hotmale]

After reading more on this site, I'm starting to doubt my type. Or perhaps I'm just not the 'stereotype' of an ISTJ. A few things about me:

* when I was younger I was more outgoing - possibly an E, now that I'm 40 I've mellowed.
* as a kid I loved telling people what to do (was bossy). My mom claims that I was a bit like Angelica from Rugrats. I still like 'grabbing the bull by the horns' and taking over and doing things MY way. I have to be a leader if it's something that I care about, if I don't care, then I am fine in the background.
* I'm great at giving advice - people tell me that I give the BEST advice on everything -relationships, careers, raising kids, etc. Because I'm good at it, I spend lots of time being an amateur psycologist to friends and family (which can be draining). I'm a great problem-solver.
* I challenge authority if necessary. I've written to the schools that my kids go to about a couple of ridiculous policies (illness is no longer an excused absence!) and in one case got the policy changed. I have no problem 'speaking out' (but I'm always very polite and logical/rational).
* I'm very concerned about my personal 'productivity.' At the end of the day I want to be able to say 'this is what I've accomplished' even if it's just boring household stuff. I don't think that I'm naturally productive, it's something that I'm always trying to improve.
* I am a perfectionist about a lot of things but unfortunately, I'm often disappointed in myself, since things often don't turn out the way I'd hoped. On magazine quiz, it said that my personality was "Frusterated Perfectionist" and that's me to a T.
* Organized versus disorganized? hard to say. I used to be completely disorganized, but I've learned that to be productive I must stay organized. So I'm constantly working on it. In some areas of my life I'm super-organized, in other's - not at all (and that really bothers me).
* planned or unplanned? Both. I love to plan detailed itineries for vacations and such but when I get there if something that I didn't plan on seems more fun, I'll chuck the plan. But I am known as the Disney World Commando by my family.
* In my day-to-day work, I make elaborate plans but rarely stick to them and feel guilty about it. Right now I'm supposed to be working-out but I'm on the computer!
* I think I'm a Chart-the Course type.
* I'm creative, but not in a poetry or writing or abstact kind of way. I design decks, gardens, interiors. My visual/spatial skills are my biggest talent. Not at all good with mechanical things or tools.
* easy going on the outside, not so much on the inside (if I care about something), if I don't care then I don't get worked up about it.
* extremely even tempered on the outside, even if I'm giving someone a piece of my mind.
* medium in terms of patience
* former teenaged/early 20's party-animal, but I'm currently on the board at my church - hee, hee
* not sure if this plays into MBTI theory or not, but from my research (yes, I love to research, should have been a librarian!) I've learned that children of alcoholics often have that 'need to establish control' which I obviously have (not sure if it's natural to me though, or just a learned habit).



Any thoughts?

You sound exactly like my sister. She's an ENTJ. I suspect that you are not sense-dominated because the difference between her and myself is that I am very good with mechanical tools and can fix anything if given the opportunity. Also I am more organized and neater than her- as most S-people tend to be while she is better at reading people and understanding their motivations.

From my understanding, women are generally taught to be more reserved and not as outspoken- so that it might not be until their personalities fully mature that their real "instincts" kick in and they revert back to how they were naturally as children.

I think there are a lot of similarities though between ESFJ women and ENTJ women- and someone on this site had mentioned this before- but the thinking styles between ESTJs, ENTJs, ESFJs are parallel to one another. Although in my observations, the main difference between ENTJs/ESFJs is how they are perceived. Usually ESFJ women strike people as being wild, untamed, life-of-the party types while ENTJ women at first glance seem reserved and quietly assessing everyone in the room before making a move.

It could be that maybe you're an ESFJ not an ISFJ.

[alicia91]

Thank you for your input hotmale.

I have never entertained the thought of ENTJ, does that match up with my function preferences I wonder? Based on what I read on Lenore's sight, I'm fairly sure about those (at least according to her theories). It would be funny if I was an ENTJ because that's the same type as my husband. He's very talkative, almost in an imposing sort of way, tells really dumb jokes, and is quite insensitive and clueless about nuturing relationships. He's got lots of good qualties but jeez, I just can't see myself as his type.

It could be that maybe you're an ESFJ not an ISFJ.

If ESFJ is a "life of the party" type then that's not a possibility! I'm friendly and love people but I'm reserved on the outside.

I wanted to add something to what I posted about last night and who knows if it's significant or not. But when it comes to dealing with people, I can and will get 'direct' with people if I have to - I have no fear of doing that IF they came to me with problems in the first place. However, I usually don't do that right away, what I do is ask people leading questions with the goal of getting them to clarify and solve their own issues.

On a practical note - I have an important consultation this afternoon and I really want to sell this woman more services than I'm hired for today. Today it's a two hour color consultation, but she really needs a lot more to make her house wonderful. I'm whatever MBTI type has trouble with upselling. :yes:

[Ezra]

Or perhaps I'm just not the 'stereotype' of an ISTJ.

The thing you've got to be careful of is typing yourself as a type you're not (regardless of whether or not you 'want to be' that type). I think I've been doing this with ESTJ; I've essentially been thinking that I could be an ESTJ, and because many aspects of the type don't fit me, I think to myself "it must just be because I'm an atypical ESTJ", when I should be thinking "perhaps I'm not actually an ESTJ".

[alicia91]

I know what you mean Ezra. But what are you to do when none of them are good fits? I suppose it's because when when you are not extreme in any of the functions, then you perform as the opposite type a certain percentage of the time. If you are say 60/40 P versus J than 40% of the time you act J-like - and that's very significant! When you read about the type they will generally describe you as P all the time and not your individual mix, so......

Personally, I am torn between wanting a 'box' and thinking that being in a 'box' is too limiting. For now, though I'd like to find my box, what I do with it...time will tell.

[Ezra]

Alicia, what you need to do is decide which dichotomies are firm. For me, they are TJ. Every time, save once or twice, I have come out as J. I have always come out as T. Hence, I have already limited myself to four types; ESTJ, ENTJ, ISTJ and INTJ. Now, I look at the descriptions of these four types, and I can automatically lose ISTJ; it fits me least of all. I look at the next three, and decide which is most like me, because when you're balanced, that's all you can do. You may be flittering from one type to another, but the likelihood is that you're closest to one type than any other, even if you have a balanced dichotomy. You will act more one than another. And remember, the more balanced you are, the better you are as a person; it means you're more skilled in two areas as opposed to brilliant in one area, and not so good in its 'opposite'.

[alicia91]

Alicia, what you need to do is decide which dichotomies are firm. For me, they are TJ.

Are you analyzing the 8 cognitive functions or just the basic dichotomies? The latter is simpler of course but I'm not sure for borderline cases (like us), it's as helpful. At this point I still have a hard time between just saying I versus E, etc. but I have an easier time knowing how I'm using my cognitive functions. Exactly how they line up - is still a mystery.

Heck, I could never figure out whether I am left or right-brained either. But after the twirling dancer exercise I concluded that I'm completely right-brained. (kidding)

[INTJMom]

...
One thing I mentioned when I first came here and it's a major trait of mine (that I'd like to revisit if anyone has any new insight)is the whole issue of being very single-minded. What I mean is that I tend to have only one focus at at time. For example if I have a big project at work let's say it's 20 hours of work. I would feel compelled to work on it for 20 hours all together. Rather than work on it for 4 hours a day for 5 days. I might hardly get any sleep, I might barely take a shower, my mind will be consumed by this task until it comes to a logical ending point. I also go in these spurts with my interests - where all I can focus on is X for two weeks, then I lose X and go on to Y, X often comes back again (but not always). I think I missed a month of my life when I was 13 because I went to the library and got 10 books on The Beatles, stayed in my room the whole time reading and only came out for meals and bathroom breaks. Ok, I can hide it and work around it and I'm actually happier now that I'm allowing myself to have this work style. A doctor once told me that this was 'hyperfocusing' and asked me if I had any other symptoms of ADD but I don't. But this could just be a weird personal quirk and have nothing to do with MBTI. I've asked my husband "do you think I have time management problems?" and he says "you are an enigma" - on the one hand stuff gets done when you are in that MOOD, but then it might be 6 months before you are in that MOOD again! But you are productive every day in some capacity."This sounds more INFPish.

My sister is an INFP. She's very idealistic. She loves to decorate her home and her garden is such a way as to make it seem like an IDEAL place. But she has to get herself into the mood, usually by deciding on a "theme" to build around.

I think you may have to content yourself with a mix of ISFP/INFP.

No description will fit you perfectly. There are other facets to our personalities that make us different from one another. MBTTheory is about how we think. It's how we take in information, how we output it, how we structure our lives based on our thinking.

And I was the one who was right.;)
You're supposed to think back to when you were young. Our core type never changes.
Now that you're older you've mellowed out, you've picked up adaptations that just muddy the water.

Don't lose sight of why it's good to know your type. It's so that you can understand why others are different from you, so that you can get along with others better. It's to help you work on your "possible blind spots" so you can be more balanced. If you already have that, then you are doing great! :)

I like the descriptions at this web site:
ISFP - Introverted Feeling with Sensing (http://www.murraystate.edu/secsv/fye/ISfP.htm)
INFJ - Introverted Intuition with Feeling (http://www.murraystate.edu/secsv/fye/INFP.htm)
Sorry about the title.
INFP IS on this page.

[alicia91]

Thanks INTJMom!

Do you mean mix of ISFP with INFJ or INFP?

[INTJMom]

Thanks INTJMom!

Do you mean mix of ISFP with INFJ or INFP?I'm starting to think you're a mix of ISFP and INFP.



Like I said, that page is mis-titled. (I have informed the webmaster.;))

[alicia91]

Great - thanks. Didn't see the disclaimer.

Off to work now. :)

[INTJMom]

Okay. I just re-read all your posts in this thread.

OMG yes! Unless, it's at least partly MY idea that we should change the plans (if the dancing looks boring for example). If I plan something that people want to change, especially at the last minute, my feelings are usually very hurt. Sounds more F.

So I was just emailing this morning with my younger sister ... She also said that my mother has called me a 'wet-blanket!' I'm annoyed at that but my mother is probably an ISFP and doesn't have much common sense. I also disagree with the wet-blanket statement.I cannot fathom an ISFP without common sense. My ISTP husband is always complaining about people not having common sense. In my opinion, ISP types have the most common sense. Might you be mistaken about your Mom's type? If your mom is an INFP, then she might think you're a wet blanket because you tell people how unrealistic their ideas are (and to an ISP, the great majority of the ideas of an INFP are unrealistic).

Question - I think I mentioned this in another thread, one of my big problems with working for myself is that I suck at self-promotion. I've only been is business for 1 1/2 years so how can I go out and tell the world that I'm the best decorator in the state? Maybe someone is better? Or if someone asks 'why should I hire you?' I never know what to say! I'm good at negotiating, and talking logically about my designs but pumping myself up - very hard. Does this mean I'm an Introvert?It's more complicated than that, and I haven't figured it out yet either.

...
The truth is that a little over a year ago I started a part-time decorating business because I couldn't stand being a housewife for one more day! I was unfullfilled and my self-esteem was at an all time low. I felt trapped in the house, like a slave for my family, and taken for granted by everyone. While I do the usual housewifey things, I really dislike being tied to my house. I can hear my ISFP friend saying this.

...For example, while I love to finish up projects, I also want a new one to dive into right away. I can't stand REALLY long-term projects that take forever. I want immediate, tangible results. That's why I 'install' most everything for my clients. I climb a ladder, mount the art, move the sofa, roll out the rug and light the candles. So while I do a good job ( I don't purposely rush) my philosophy: NEW PROJECT, WORK HARD........... NEXT!! Even with my daily stuff around the house, I might designate the hours of 11-1 to get things done, but I don't want to do what I did yesterday. I like novelty - PLANNED novelty! LOLAlso sounds ISPish.

Something else that may or may not be relevant is my educational history. Right after high school, I wen to university to study Economics. Why? I have no idea. I eventually switched to Political Science and History but didn't graduate. I liked the courses but honestly couldn't forsee myself working in any of these fields which is why I dropped out after 3 years. Then I worked a series of jobs like Office Space Leasing Agent - OK job, Receptinist at Veterinarian - worst job ever (liked the receptionist job but hated cleaning kennels and bathing cats), Sales clerk - loved it, modeling - I'm a bit short so I got jobs like swimsuit modeling, working auto-shows etc. I didn't like it all that much, WAY too focused on the exterior even for me and I'm really into fashion and beauty. Went back to school and eventually in my late 20's got a degree in Interior Design. I don't like everything to do with this career either but it's better than PoliSci.Sounds ISPish

...
I went to college to study economics originally. I think the idea was that I was going to eventually study law. I'm also very interested in money so it made sense at the time. ... I wanted a more hands-on, practical career - so I went to design school and have a degree in interior design. Sounds S.
And now?
Shop, hang out with my kids, go out with my husband for dinner and/or drinks, read books - self-help, gardening, cooking, personal finance/investments, wines, downhill ski, go to hockey games (we have season tickets), go to the club (pool & golf), this past summer I took golf lessons which I enjoyed, hiking, traveling (but I like familiar places best - Florida Keys, Sedona, Walt Disney World, Disneyland, Charleston, Myrtle Beach - I basically rotate those trips). I'm also a huge amusement park fan - every year I hit Disney, Cedar Point, King's Island and Canada's Wonderland. I'm also really into water-parks. So I don't really relax too much! Actually I don't relax .... period..... except when sleeping! LOLSounds SP.

Forced hubby to sit down with me today and go over all of it with me. It was torture for him (ENTJ with ADHD) but he knows me better than anyone else.

1) He laughed his ass off when I told him I thought I was Extraverted. He said something to the effect of 'just because you go out for lunch once a weak with your girlfriends and say hello to the cashiers at the grocery store in no way makes you Extraverted........ (roaring laughter)' Okie-dokie then.

2) Definately S - but I kind of knew that.

3) T vs F - a bit harder but he claims that I'm more F than T. I make decisions based on how I feel rather than cold hard logic. But he says I have a way of making my decisions SOUND completely rational and logical so I come across as T. I think he's right. I also think that my F might be somewhat weak.

4) He was so surprised that I hadn't figured this one out. J v P. He says I'm P but with enough J that I'm trying to improve my J skills and have to a large degree but I'm still P no matter how hard I try. Some examples he gave was when I moved from Canada to the US it took me about 5 years to close all my Canadian bank accounts, I'm still a Canadian citizen even though I've been here for 17 years - (just in case I want to move back). Despite this I have enough J to make me CARE about being organized and because I'm very picky about my surroundings I spent considerable time working on them. Yet details still can stress me out.

I've read some of the online versions of ISFP and the one at Bestfittype sounds JUST like me, though other ones like Typelogic aren't so accurate. However, I have the book Do What You Are and the chapter in there that describes this type is very accurate, so it's definitely a possibility.
Color and size added for effect. :smile:


We should have just believed your husband!
I would bet a Hershey Bar you are an ISFP.

[Randomnity]

(and to an ISP, the great majority of the ideas of an INFP are unrealistic).
Speaking from experience with my INFP mom....yeah. :doh:

I never really thought that she might interpret that as 'wet-blanketness', though. :cry:

[alicia91]

See, now I think the INFJ and INFP descriptions in Do What You Are sound just like me too. :doh:

My mother - oy boy, we are very similar in many ways but I think she has little common sense. I made the statement about her type when I probably shouldn't have said anything and didn't know what I was talking about (brand new here). She dropped out of high-school after 9th grade, married well, is always depending on a new man. Today she called me to invite me to her third wedding on April 19th. Her divorce was just final in October, but she's been living with this man for a year. I tell ya, she's 64, but I'm much more mature. She has absolutely no foresight, lives day to day and for the moment. Drives me nuts but I love her.

[Splittet]

Honestly I think you should just try to learn more about the cognitive functions, and on that basis decide what your type is. You might not find a perfect match even based on cognitive functions, but I think you should be able to find a very decent one. It should be easier to find out if you are ISFP or INFP than if you are INFJ. Fi is a function quite easy to understand, while the dominant function of the INFJ, Ni, is probably the most difficult one to understand, so take your time when you try to understand it.

Dichotomy thinking is honestly useless, and personally I consider it past in my understanding of MBTI. I think back on my early MBTI days with dichotomy thinking, and can't help but feel my understanding was very shallow, and that I understand so much more now. It seems like you as well are discovering all the joys of function theory. ;)

[INTJMom]

Speaking from experience with my INFP mom....yeah. :doh:

I never really thought that she might interpret that as 'wet-blanketness', though. :cry:I was speaking of my own experience.
My ISTP husband ridicules my INFP sister's ideas because they "don't make sense:doh:".
Thankfully, he doesn't do it to her face very much.

Her ideas never affected me that way because I'm rather idealistic also.

[runvardh]

I second taking a look more at functions, it's how I know I'm INFP wrather than INFJ.

[alicia91]

Could someone tell me what exactly is the Dichotomy way of looking at it. Is that when you just compare I versus E traits, S versu N, etc. ?

[Splittet]

Could someone tell me what exactly is the Dichotomy way of looking at it. Is that when you just compare I versus E traits, S versu N, etc. ?

Yes.

[INTJMom]

Honestly I think you should just try to learn more about the cognitive functions, and on that basis decide what your type is. You might not find a perfect match even based on cognitive functions, but I think you should be able to find a very decent one. It should be easier to find out if you are ISFP or INFP than if you are INFJ. Fi is a function quite easy to understand, while the dominant function of the INFJ, Ni, is probably the most difficult one to understand, so take your time when you try to understand it.

Dichotomy thinking is honestly useless, and personally I consider it past in my understanding of MBTI. I think back on my early MBTI days with dichotomy thinking, and can't help but feel my understanding was very shallow, and that I understand so much more now. It seems like you as well are discovering all the joys of function theory. ;)You're probably right (though I have read opposing opinion) but whatever it may be, it's not as easy as you make it sound.
I find the cognitive functions incredibly difficult to understand and I have never yet had a correct result from an online test.

[hotmale]

See, now I think the INFJ and INFP descriptions in Do What You Are sound just like me too. :doh:

My mother - oy boy, we are very similar in many ways but I think she has little common sense. I made the statement about her type when I probably shouldn't have said anything and didn't know what I was talking about (brand new here). She dropped out of high-school after 9th grade, married well, is always depending on a new man. Today she called me to invite me to her third wedding on April 19th. Her divorce was just final in October, but she's been living with this man for a year. I tell ya, she's 64, but I'm much more mature. She has absolutely no foresight, lives day to day and for the moment. Drives me nuts but I love her.

Sounds like every ENFP woman I have ever come across- except for probably CzeCze. :)

[alicia91]

Sounds like every ENFP woman I have ever come across- except for probably CzeCze.

Yikes - don't tell me that. I think my 15 year-old daughter is ENFP. :shock:

[hotmale]

It would be funny if I was an ENTJ because that's the same type as my husband. He's very talkative, almost in an imposing sort of way, tells really dumb jokes, and is quite insensitive and clueless about nuturing relationships. He's got lots of good qualties but jeez, I just can't see myself as his type.

HAHA, is your husband from New York? I've noticed some people who are not used to people from the big apple, don't get the "blunt, dry, direct" humor people tend to have there.

If ESFJ is a "life of the party" type then that's not a possibility! I'm friendly and love people but I'm reserved on the outside.

I wanted to add something to what I posted about last night and who knows if it's significant or not. But when it comes to dealing with people, I can and will get 'direct' with people if I have to - I have no fear of doing that IF they came to me with problems in the first place. However, I usually don't do that right away, what I do is ask people leading questions with the goal of getting them to clarify and solve their own issues.

A lot of women are reserved on the outside- most have learned that schools/ universities/ workplace. It's not unusual and doesn't negate the possibility of being an ESFJ. But I've noticed another primary difference between SF women and NT women is that the latter is always told to "smile" more.

On a practical note - I have an important consultation this afternoon and I really want to sell this woman more services than I'm hired for today. Today it's a two hour color consultation, but she really needs a lot more to make her house wonderful. I'm whatever MBTI type has trouble with upselling. :yes:


You can throw it out and there and see if she's interested. You want to attract, not push.

[nemo]

Could someone tell me what exactly is the Dichotomy way of looking at it. Is that when you just compare I versus E traits, S versu N, etc. ?

I'm going to disagree with some of the other posters telling you to look at cognitive functions to determine your type. In my opinion, there's just too many holes in the theory to be a good indicator of your type is. It doesn't say how, for instance, an ISFP uses Si; or an INTJ uses Ti -- etc.

I have the best luck using Keirsey's approach of dividing the 16 types into four temperaments (SJ Guardian, SP Artisan, NT Rational, NF Idealist). It has the nice feature that it is more behavioral (focusing on communication styles, interaction, intelligence) and has the more holistic approach of emphasizing that a type is more than just the sum of the parts.

That said, from reading this thread you still strike me as some kind of SJ.

Anyway, good luck!

[Splittet]

I'm going to disagree with some of the other posters telling you to look at cognitive functions to determine your type. In my opinion, there's just too many holes in the theory to be a good indicator of your type is. It doesn't say how, for instance, an ISFP uses Si; or an INTJ uses Ti -- etc.

I have the best luck using Keirsey's approach of dividing the 16 types into four temperaments (SJ Guardian, SP Artisan, NT Rational, NF Idealist). It has the nice feature that it is more behavioral (focusing on communication styles, interaction, intelligence) and has the more holistic approach of emphasizing that a type is more than just the sum of the parts.

That said, from reading this thread you still strike me as some kind of SJ.

Anyway, good luck!

Well, using that logic, it is too many holes in all Jungian type theories for them to be useful. At least function theory hasn't been ridiculed by science, so far, like the dichotomy perspective has been. If you want a behaviourist approach, just use Big Five theory. Temperament theory is a bit separate from the dichotomy perspective, and I find it quite useful.

[nemo]

I should rephrase what I said: I think there's too many holes in the MBTI cognitive functions model to accurately determine your type. It's still insightful, but since it doesn't paint a complete picture of how all the extroverted-this and introverted-thats fits together, I think it's too easy to rationalize being radically different types and get stuck in a never-ending loop.

[alicia91]

HAHA, is your husband from New York?

Pittsburgh!

[Ezra]

Are you analyzing the 8 cognitive functions or just the basic dichotomies?

I'm thinking primarily in terms of dichotomies. I've yet to find an accurate test for the eight functions (strictly MBTT-related that is). The one that Splittet constantly recommends I don't think is good. I've explained why countless times.

[alicia91]

Ezra - I'm not sure which is better yet but I find anything that gives real-life examples more helpful since it lessens the ambiguity. I have a tendency to read way too much into things epecially vague explanations. What do you think of this:?

How to Experience Different Function-Attitudes (http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exegesis/How_to_Experience_Different_Function-Attitudes)

I found it incredibly helpful and I was really able to understand the functions better in terms of my own behavior. Hopefully the person who wrote it knows what they are talking about!

I love the F versus T question in Do What You Are. If it's accurate then I'm definately an F.

[Splittet]

I'm thinking primarily in terms of dichotomies. I've yet to find an accurate test for the eight functions (strictly MBTT-related that is). The one that Splittet constantly recommends I don't think is good. I've explained why countless times.

One doesn't have to use a test, introspection is also possible, you know. (But it is easier for people with little function knowledge to use a test.) The test is obviously not perfect, but its input is especially valuable to someone who knows how to interpret it, and might discover obvious typing mistakes. Many SPs wrongly type themselves as NPs for example, because they consider themselves creative. The test will rather easily be able to tell if that is the case.

I think you should really consider your own cognitive functions profile as well, because I doubt you ENTJ typing, but sure, I have seen a few things that might support it as well. If you want to pursue the dichotomy perspective I recommend you Big Five. It's a lot better and far more nuanced than MBTI in that respect, and has relatively large scientific support. I especially recommend the SLOAN+ system, which is great.

[Gabe]

Sounds like every ENFP woman I have ever come across- except for probably CzeCze. :)

You probably wouldn't recognize an ENFP if they'd even been under your nose for years!!:D :D

[alicia91]

Many SPs wrongly type themselves as NPs for example, because they consider themselves creative. The test will rather easily be able to tell if that is the case.

What do you mean? SPs are supposed to be creative, just about every book, and website has them as Designers, Artists, etc. How is that not creative? Heck, most think Paul McCartney is ISFP - I think he's creative.

[disregard]

I am very far from creative.. and I am an NP.

[hotmale]

You probably wouldn't recognize an ENFP if they'd even been under your nose for years!!:D :D

What makes you say that? They're fairly easy to discern. Most of the ENFP women around me tend to be hippie militant liberal types however.

[Uberfuhrer]

The definition of creativity is the ability to create.

N has creative ideas, S has creative applications. S is better at troubleshooting, while the N is better at imagining.

So the N has more intention to be creative because of a desire to look at things in an innovative way (from their own perspective, since type is largely ego-based), the S can also innovate, but they aren't normally on the look for anything new, it mostly happens through discovery.

Keep in mind, too, that an N's ideas may not necessarily be original to the world at large, but the N's idea is probably original from his/her point of view.

[alicia91]

Hmm....I make a living being creative and seeing possiblities as an Interior Designer. I can look at just about any space (inside or out), or object and envision it differently, improved or just used in a different kind of way. I'm really good at creating a 'picture in my mind' then making it a reality. I have strong visual spatial skills and tend to analyze negative space (space around objects) as much as the object itself. I can also rotate objects in my mind 3-dimensionally and so forth.

So is this different than what you are saying Uber or am I just unusual for an S-type? Not sure what you mean by

the S can also innovate, but they aren't normally on the look for anything new, it mostly happens through discovery

If I envision, design and install a completey new living room for someone - is this something 'new' or through discovery? I'm thinking it's something new.

[Uberfuhrer]

Hmm....I make a living being creative and seeing possiblities as an Interior Designer. I can look at just about any space (inside or out), or object and envision it differently, improved or just used in a different kind of way. I'm really good at creating a 'picture in my mind' then making it a reality. I have strong visual spatial skills and tend to analyze negative space (space around objects) as much as the object itself. I can also rotate objects in my mind 3-dimensionally and so forth.

So is this different than what you are saying Uber or am I just unusual for an S-type? Not sure what you mean by



If I envision, design and install a completey new living room for someone - is this something 'new' or through discovery? I'm thinking it's something new.

Yes that's an N trait. And you seem to be a very mild S or mild N. Meaning you have balance of both traits.

[alicia91]

Well good then! :)

I think having both S and N works well for my job.

[Ezra]

Ezra - I'm not sure which is better yet but I find anything that gives real-life examples more helpful since it lessens the ambiguity. I have a tendency to read way too much into things epecially vague explanations.

I completely agree.

What do you think of this:?

How to Experience Different Function-Attitudes (http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exegesis/How_to_Experience_Different_Function-Attitudes)

I found it incredibly helpful and I was really able to understand the functions better in terms of my own behavior. Hopefully the person who wrote it knows what they are talking about!

I feel no affinity with any of the functional behaviours and attitudes to be honest.

One doesn't have to use a test, introspection is also possible, you know. (But it is easier for people with little function knowledge to use a test.) The test is obviously not perfect, but its input is especially valuable to someone who knows how to interpret it, and might discover obvious typing mistakes.

The problem with it is that there are only six questions for each function, so it can never be that accurate.

I think you should really consider your own cognitive functions profile as well, because I doubt you ENTJ typing, but sure, I have seen a few things that might support it as well.

The way in which MBTI tests is dichotomically. Hence, I take it that MBTT places more emphasis on the dichotomies than on the functions, running contra to socionics.

If you want to pursue the dichotomy perspective I recommend you Big Five. It's a lot better and far more nuanced than MBTI in that respect, and has relatively large scientific support. I especially recommend the SLOAN+ system, which is great.

Here are my results.

S(64%)C(70%)O(60%)E(76%)N(62%)

What makes you say that? They're fairly easy to discern. Most of the ENFP women around me tend to be hippie militant liberal types however.

Interesting combination is hippiness, militancy and liberality.

N has creative ideas, S has creative applications. S is better at troubleshooting, while the N is better at imagining.

And what about, for example, in the case of the NT economist? Are they not masters of troubleshooting?

[INTJMom]

...Here's a test that might help out.

DISC TEST, A FREE DISC type TEST (http://www.mtselect.co.uk/testing/DISC.htm)

Just post your results when you're done.

Alicia, you can do it, too, if you like.

[Uberfuhrer]

And what about, for example, in the case of the NT economist? Are they not masters of troubleshooting?

Who says economics is an NT pursuit? I think it's more of an ST.

[Ezra]

Here's a test that might help out.

DISC TEST, A FREE DISC type TEST (http://www.mtselect.co.uk/testing/DISC.htm)

Just post your results when you're done.

Alicia, you can do it, too, if you like.

Thanks for that test, INTJMom. It was interesting and a nice change to the constant repetition of MBTI tests whereby the questions are all the same in every test, and I know exactly what each is implying. At least on this one I don't have a clue what my result will be, hence it's fairer. My results:

DOMINANCE = 52
INFLUENCE = 24
STEADINESS = 4
COMPLIANCE = 20

I answered "Very honestly" to the last question. This is an honest answer. ;)

Who says economics is an NT pursuit? I think it's more of an ST.

Perhaps, but do you know of the economist philosophers, a la Robert Nozick and Friedrich Hayek? Nozick was a clear NT, and I doubt Hayek was an ST.

["?"]

Honestly I think you should just try to learn more about the cognitive functions, and on that basis decide what your type is. You might not find a perfect match even based on cognitive functions, but I think you should be able to find a very decent one. It should be easier to find out if you are ISFP or INFP than if you are INFJ. Fi is a function quite easy to understand, while the dominant function of the INFJ, Ni, is probably the most difficult one to understand, so take your time when you try to understand it.Okay Split since I admire your insights and you are aware of at least my argument that the cognitive functions are too fluid to result in obtaining your preferences from a test, can you explain how one should answer the questions without getting skewed results?

Granted I may result in Ti, however usually I get Ni. Not because that is, or I consider it, my dominant introverted function. Based on Beebe, it is the function that ISPs readily use after their dominant function. I also may or may not get Se (which usually I don't because I am doing things that calls for another function. In fact if I am using Se, then it means that I am not typing on the forums, instead doing something like gardening, working in my yard or going for a nice peaceful walk. So again I would not result in my dominant functions because when taking the test, I am not cognizant of them.

Dichotomy thinking is honestly useless, and personally I consider it past in my understanding of MBTI. I think back on my early MBTI days with dichotomy thinking, and can't help but feel my understanding was very shallow, and that I understand so much more now. It seems like you as well are discovering all the joys of function theory. ;)[/QUOTE]

[Ezra]

Ezra - I'm not sure which is better yet but I find anything that gives real-life examples more helpful since it lessens the ambiguity. I have a tendency to read way too much into things epecially vague explanations. What do you think of this:?

How to Experience Different Function-Attitudes (http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exegesis/How_to_Experience_Different_Function-Attitudes)

I had a Te moment today, and realised that I actually use it quite a lot. Hence, I relate most to Te. Clearly I was in theoretical mode when I was reading this article.