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Cypocalypse
10-07-2009, 08:23 AM
I'm just wondering. How legit is the claim?

Every detailed INTP description website tells that the charisma exists but couldn't get that much into the specifics of it. It doesn't help either that most MBTI forums have a saturation of INTPs, over-flattering themselves.

Being inherently INTP, this is something that I had interest with over the past recent years, and made some observations.

Among the rationals, my basic impression is...
ENTJ - thinks he's God
INTJ - can be as brutally sarcastic as the ENTJ, but based on my experience with one, I'd rather hang out in an INTJ than ENTJ because the former doesn't assert too much his biases, unless when provoked (in most cases, that is).
ENTP - the only archetype among rationals with a glaring charisma.

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INTP is an interesting case. Right now, I can easily identify three INTPs that I know, two of them are incredibly hate-able social retards, it easily makes me question my archetype (mine usually varies. INTP, INFP, ENTP, depending on the test I take. Though as of the moment, I consider myself eNtP. Mildly dominant E, and T). The other INTP has INCREDIBLE charisma.

INTPs are hard to sub-categorize, in my opinion. It's like we have too much variants within an already apparently minority MBTI archetype. There seems to be a broad spectrum between the very likable variants of the INTP and the very hate-able.

To be fair (so that I won't get to flatter myself by involving myself), I looked at the charismatic INTP that I know, also observed all the charismatic ENTPs (and some close INTP archetypes) that I know, and I came up with some conclusions:

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1. Putting INTROVERTED THINKING in the proper social context. The charismatic INTP I know does something like this. He lets the other person (or the group) initiate the talk. He later supplements the talk with his broad knowledge base, usually hardly contradicting the statement but further affirms it, focusing on the other person's statement's merits. The major point to consider is the supplement approach. The broad knowledge base is never initiated. The INTP guy never initiates the deep talk, thus reducing the chances of overwhelming others with his intellect.

If he couldn't supplement it, he asks questions. And this is where INTPs are good at. THEY ASK GOOD QUESTIONS. By doing this, it shows that the INTP is interested with the person's view, and asking good questions provide a good measure of the INTPs intellect. So at least this mode of conversation is good to both parties.

2. Introverted Thinking Simplifying Complicated Concepts - as they say in INTP websites, Introverted Thinking likes to simplify what is complex and making complex something that is apparently simple. I do tend to observe that the former is very well appreciated and the later is hated. The former displays an intention of the INTP person of keeping-things-light, which is a basic socializing protocol.

By simplifying something that is complex (basically putting it to its essentials), the INTP sends the impression that, "Hey, I may be smart, but I want you to have a full understanding of what I want to explain, and not overwhelm you with needless rhetoric.

Still, the other person learns from the INTP. (usually, number 2 is best combined with 1)

3. Self-deprecating humor - ENTPs have full mastery of this. INTPs may acknowledge their faults, but they hardly make jokes about it. The more socially inept ones are too defensive of their pride, they end up as opinionated as an irritatingly outspoken ENTJ sometimes. The more appealing INTPs I know are good at making fun of themselves.

4. Making something humorous/charismatic about what's perceived of you to be negative - I'll use an example. NTPs get accused all the time of being bums. One ENTP I know is PROUD of the image, he dresses up BUM style. But it's a stylistic BUM. It looks like an Otaku/Hiphop dress-up hybrid. Not so minimalist. Looks a bit hiphop ghetto, but stylistic.

Until he starts speaking. By dressing up BUM style, he makes a bit of an under-declaration of himself. But not under-declared enough to be considered ghetto. But when he speaks, it's articulate enough that it brings a surprising intellect factor that is not normally expected of him at initial glance.

5. Flirting -- INTPs underrated trait. the P function can help us create figurative open-ended statements, hence making us less accountable than J statements. Figurative statements give a sense of conversational control, unlike J statements that is easily more susceptible to accountability in cases where politically incorrect statements are made.

Based on experience, it helped me do wonders on ENFJ, INFJ, and ESFP. Though personally, I prefer ENFJs. They romanticize the context of the figurative statement. And they make sure that it has a better sense of clarity, so that the next statement from the INTP is progressively, but comfortably more defined.

Skyward
10-07-2009, 08:38 AM
Dunno about anyone else, but my INTP friend has a calm "s'all cool, man" vibe. He doesn't do much pushing like the other NTs do- ENTPs by trying to talk you into it, ENTJs by calling you blind, and INTJs for knowing the best answer already (at least THEY think so)- and the fact that they're just as easy to push over as an INFP while still being a sort of logician. I think of it as a 'objective whimseyness.'

People like their easygoing personality.

Not all INTPs are like that though, some are assholes, but every type has them :D

SilentStream
10-07-2009, 10:41 AM
Yeah this basically describes me when I'm at my best and the kinda person I want to be more often. Well except for the flirtation skills :huh:. I'm very laid-back with people and I don't do the whole NT thing, rather I generally expand on what they said that I agree with and ignore what I think is incorrect. Well most of the time ;).

Xander
10-07-2009, 12:23 PM
I've seen charisma in many introverts and seen it lacking in many extroverts. I think it's more related to being comfortable with yourself and confident with your projected image than any inherent facet of a persons type.

For example I know an ENFJ who lacks charisma because he's got a speech impediment and grew up being bullied. Hence he's not often comfortable or confident and hence lacks charisma... of course give him a few drinks and the situation changes a bit... but alcohol does funny things... so does he :)

Shimmy
10-07-2009, 12:50 PM
I think you're over-analysing a bit. Obviously, in every type there are more and less charismatic individuals. There can be a number of reasons for this, you name some of the reasons YOU think are charismatic for an INTP. But I can imagine that an 'S' wouldn't think the type of flirting an INTP typically does is charismatic. Nor would dressing up like a bum be.

To me it sounds like you're describing a system why some people would like INTP's (mostly because they're open-minded and easy-going) rather then that you are demistifying anything.

JocktheMotie
10-07-2009, 12:51 PM
Wow...5 stars. These are pretty good observations. *takes notes*

JustHer
10-07-2009, 01:11 PM
OkAY, ENTJs do not think they are godly.

KTHX.

ajblaise
10-07-2009, 01:24 PM
Nice list of traits. I think that covers a decent amount of how INTPs get their moments of charisma.


Dunno about anyone else, but my INTP friend has a calm "s'all cool, man" vibe.

I think a lot of it could come down to that. Some INTPs put out a cool easy-going vibe or another socially palatable quality, others don't or can't. Generally the more normal looking and sounding INTPs will have an advantage over the more hopelessly nerdy looking INTPs when it comes to this.

MacGuffin
10-07-2009, 02:00 PM
I agree with nearly all except this:


3. Self-deprecating humor - ENTPs have full mastery of this. INTPs may acknowledge their faults, but they hardly make jokes about it. The more socially inept ones are too defensive of their pride, they end up as opinionated as an irritatingly outspoken ENTJ sometimes. The more appealing INTPs I know are good at making fun of themselves.

INTPs are quite good at self-deprecation. It's a pretty common trait. The hateable INTPs often lack it, but the average INTP has it.


Cool INTPs: act like ENTPs

Hateable INTPs: act like ENTJs

Poki
10-07-2009, 02:08 PM
INTPs are quite good at self-deprecation. It's a pretty common trait. The hateable INTPs often lack it, but the average INTP has it.

I do this also. I do it to show that I am not trying to hide or get things out of people. Its full disclosure so what I say can be taken for what is and you dont feel like I am trying to mislead you.

INTP
10-07-2009, 02:13 PM
Nice text.

I didnt know intps usually have hard time making jokes about themselfs, i do it pretty much, maybe even bit too much. My entp friend hardly ever jokes about himself like i do.

kathara
10-07-2009, 02:19 PM
I am charismatic, but only among people I know well.

Oom
10-07-2009, 02:24 PM
Cool deductions Cypocalypse. I can see that most of it is true in my case. I'm not sure I can verify it with anything else than my own personal experience.

INTPs are a hard bunch of people to describe sometimes.

Xander
10-07-2009, 02:31 PM
Cool INTPs: act like ENTPs
Hateable INTPs: act like ENTJs
In what manner are you attributing those links?

I'm wondering because I've not seen many INTPs direct people and fewer perform social experiments. I'm thinking you mean that cool INTPs are more extraverted but then this theory grinds to a halt with the ENTJ link. It'd fit more into my thinking if you'd said INTJ, hence the question.

MacGuffin
10-07-2009, 02:36 PM
In what manner are you attributing those links?

I'm wondering because I've not seen many INTPs direct people and fewer perform social experiments. I'm thinking you mean that cool INTPs are more extraverted but then this theory grinds to a halt with the ENTJ link. It'd fit more into my thinking if you'd said INTJ, hence the question.
You like Hustler?

Xander
10-07-2009, 02:43 PM
You like Hustler?
:rofl1:

You might theorise that Hustler has control issues but I couldn't possibly comment...

He is rather... unique though. And last time I looked (about 3 years ago) wasn't he quite popular with a certain sect?

MacGuffin
10-07-2009, 02:46 PM
:rofl1:

You might theorise that Hustler has control issues but I couldn't possibly comment...

He is rather... unique though. And last time I looked (about 3 years ago) wasn't he quite popular with a certain sect?
Yes, but he's the ENTJ subtype.

Xander
10-07-2009, 02:53 PM
Yes, but he's the ENTJ subtype.
Not to pull up old disagreements but I'd still place him as INTJ. If he was an ENTJ he wouldn't really see the point after a certain length of time in trying to shepherd others to his way of thinking. Surely it'd be say a length of a few months and then the whole "I'm sorry but you're going to have to die" would kick in and he'd stomp off to do something actually productive?

Well unless INTPc was his hobby...

Night
10-07-2009, 02:56 PM
Not to pull up old disagreements but I'd still place him as INTJ. If he was an ENTJ he wouldn't really see the point after a certain length of time in trying to shepherd others to his way of thinking. Surely it'd be say a length of a few months and then the whole "I'm sorry but you're going to have to die" would kick in and he'd stomp off to do something actually productive?

Well unless INTPc was his hobby...

He's the ENTJ/INTP variation. Look at how he tries to control INTPc culture.

Productivity is measured by his influence.

Xander
10-07-2009, 02:59 PM
He's the ENTJ/INTP variation. Look at how he tries to control INTPc culture.

Productivity is measured by his influence.
The way he describes it you'd think that word should be reproductivity...

We digress...

Why is the subtype ENTJ though? What's the defining points?

I'm struggling to see an ENTJ INTP in a non healthy manner...

Cypocalypse
10-08-2009, 11:25 AM
Yeah this basically describes me when I'm at my best and the kinda person I want to be more often. Well except for the flirtation skills :huh:. I'm very laid-back with people and I don't do the whole NT thing, rather I generally expand on what they said that I agree with and ignore what I think is incorrect. Well most of the time ;).

I think ENFPs are the best teachers for INTPs regarding flirting. They flirt differently. Kinda like putting their charming child-like traits at the forefront. Not your stereotypical jerk/a$$hole kind of flirting. Weird, but somehow works.

Xander
10-08-2009, 12:15 PM
I think ENFPs are the best teachers for INTPs regarding flirting. They flirt differently. Kinda like putting their charming child-like traits at the forefront. Not your stereotypical jerk/a$$hole kind of flirting. Weird, but somehow works.
Oddly enough I learned from ENFJs and ENTJs. The ENFP way always looked far too needy for me, the whole Machiavellian "I'm going to say this and I know what you're thinking" suits me much better. Kind of evil flirting but with humour...

Cypocalypse
10-08-2009, 01:16 PM
The way I see it...

ENFP = flirting prodigy
ENFJ = flirting veteran

For INTPs who have just been learning the fundamentals of socializing, I think ENFPs are better at start-up. I think they value their close friends better. ENFJs cater to a lot of people. A lot.

Personally, I used to be clingy when the people I knew were fewer, I only learned to have preferences when I got to know more people.

It's hard to be clingy to an ENFJ if you don't have enough maturity to comprehend their social life. But in advanced flirtation training, they;re good though. :)

Xander
10-08-2009, 01:32 PM
The way I see it...

ENFP = flirting prodigy
ENFJ = flirting veteran

For INTPs who have just been learning the fundamentals of socializing, I think ENFPs are better at start-up. I think they value their close friends better. ENFJs cater to a lot of people. A lot.

Personally, I used to be clingy when the people I knew were fewer, I only learned to have preferences when I got to know more people.

It's hard to be clingy to an ENFJ if you don't have enough maturity to comprehend their social life. But in advanced flirtation training, they;re good though. :)
:rofl1: Me thinks my ENFP friend would object somewhat to being referred to as a trainee ENFJ :devil:

Gewitter27
10-08-2009, 02:02 PM
I'd say I'm both a likeable and hateable INTP, mainly. I'd say that with my only (1 or 2) friends I'm a likeable one. The real thing is that I just don't let ANYBODY in, I don't really start up conversations with people I don't know. For me, the idea of talking to a stranger is as weird as eating a chocolate-coated pickle on the 29th of February while sitting in a tub of orange juice and having two model airplanes up your nose.

I guess I just bounce everyone around me back, unless I already know them. I was much less I as a child, but grew into being a very extreme I.

Priori
10-10-2009, 12:36 PM
Oddly enough I learned from ENFJs and ENTJs. The ENFP way always looked far too needy for me, the whole Machiavellian "I'm going to say this and I know what you're thinking" suits me much better. Kind of evil flirting but with humour...

I learned from an ENFJ too - or rather she was my inspiration for learning as much as she was my teacher.

the state i am in
10-10-2009, 03:49 PM
intps are occasionally enneagram 3s in addition to the wider contingency of 5s, no? my take is that the 5s are very very stubborn and the 3s want to play social games that others find valuable, bc the sense of achievement within those games helps them feel shored up, valuable, purposeful, etc.

whereas 5s just want to feel like a supergenius, they are less behind-the-scenes and more "i need to be in-charge" like entjs. intps who are responsive and calm do work social situations far better, it is a much better and more natural use of their skills. when they want to be 8s bc they're 5s with a god-complex, their social ability starts breaking down.

even the 3s, tho, show very strong holes in "social charisma." they're just really fucking well-argued and well-defended, so you have to give them credit and recognize that they have their shit worked out most of the time. perhaps less than charisma they're just really fucking good at picking up the way the game is played and playing it well. they like all serious Ti folks love the challenge.

and that mostly they are more ok with doing something that fulfills the needs of a larger sphere rather than just focusing on their own, even if they are just as focused on/solely focused on their own success and self-perception (3w4 esp). but that can be better than e5 total self-absorption, depending on the approach and similarity of interests between the people. my best intp friend is a 5w4 and it gives us enough to talk about for years and years. the need for iconoclasm is like the foundation.

Priori
10-10-2009, 07:27 PM
perhaps less than charisma they're just really fucking good at picking up the way the game is played and playing it well. they like all serious Ti folks love the challenge.

I'm not sure how much weight I put into ennagrams, but this is an interesting observation. I've recently started watching the show Dexter and I found my self strongly relating to the character. Not that I'm a sociopath; I do feel empathy, sympathy and love - but I spent a lot of time studying communication and rapport building techniques from a wide variety of sources because I severely lacked skills that felt like they should be instinct. As a result of these studies I've become considerably more "charismatic" than I was seven years ago. But it's a lot of work - very draining, except when concerning the previously mentioned ENFJ.

01011010
10-10-2009, 07:57 PM
OkAY, ENTJs do not think they are godly.

KTHX.

Many of them do though.



OP: I've been quite taken with flirtations from a few older INTPs over the years. I think they get more confident as they age. They're the pleasant surprise, and highly underrated in the world of dating.

Matthew_Z
10-10-2009, 10:21 PM
[QUOTE=Gewitter27;860667] For me, the idea of talking to a stranger is as weird as eating a chocolate-coated pickle on the 29th of February while sitting in a tub of orange juice and having two model airplanes up your nose./QUOTE]
Well, when else are you going to live out your fantasies? If you live it out on the 29th of February, you can rest assured that it was special enough that it can't be repeated every year.

I really should schedule more social engagements for the 29th. It would be nice only have to do them once every four years. More months should have these "one day every once in a few years" things. My relatives should also happen to be born on these given days.

Vizconde
10-10-2009, 11:23 PM
Notice in INTPs "presence" and sometime "coquettishness" perhaps this is seen as/confused for/is an element of...charisma.