Man pushes suicide jumper off a bridge

[NewEra]

Link: Man pushes would-be China suicide off bridge: media | International | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE54M0C720090523?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews)

BEIJING (Reuters) - A Chinese man was pushed off a bridge by an angry passer-by after his threat to commit suicide held up traffic for five hours, Chinese media reported on Saturday.

Retired soldier Lian Jiansheng, 66, broke through a police cordon and reached out to shake the hand of would-be jumper Chen Fuchao before shoving him off the bridge.

"I pushed him off because jumpers like Chen are very selfish. Their action violates a lot of public interests," Lai was quoted as saying by the China Daily newspaper.

"They do not really dare to kill themselves. Instead, they just want to raise the relevant government authorities' attention to their appeals."

Chen, 2 million yuan ($293,200) in debt because of a failed building project, fell 8 meters (yards) onto a partially inflated emergency air cushion and was hospitalized with wrist and back injuries. Lai was detained by police.

Chen was at least the twelfth person since early April to threaten suicide at the same spot, the Haizhu bridge in Guangzhou. But none jumped and -- until Lian gave Chen a helping hand -- none was pushed.

[Wyst]

That article gives new meaning to the term, "helping hand".

[aphrodite-gone-awry]

That article gives new meaning to the term, "helping hand".

oh, good one, wyst. hah! tho this is too macabre for me to even think about.

[Night]

Aside from the tragedy of suicide, the most compelling bit of data was the selected quote snippet, seemingly offered as a would-be justification from the 'pusher' / Lian Jiansheng.


"I pushed him off because jumpers like Chen are very selfish. Their action violates a lot of public interests,"

"They do not really dare to kill themselves. Instead, they just want to raise the relevant government authorities' attention to their appeals..."


Suggests a great deal about Jiansheng's personal value system and what he ascertains to be a culturally-appropriate punitive response to behavior threatening stable governance.

Could be less - perhaps Jiansheng is simply a psychopath, acting on his own accord to disseminate his personal M.O., which in no way reflects the social system of his origin. After all, the story was bizarre enough to earn a position in Reuters...


Fascinating, nonetheless.

[Wyst]

Aside from the tragedy of suicide, the most compelling bit of data was the selected quote snippet, seemingly offered as a would-be justification from the 'pusher' / Lian Jiansheng.

Fascinating, nonetheless.

oh, good one, wyst. hah! tho this is too macabre for me to even think about.

Did you guys miss that the suicide pushee only hurt his wrist and got bruised? Had he actually died, I wouldn't have made such a comment.

[bananatrombones]

Aside from the tragedy of suicide, the most compelling bit of data was the selected quote snippet, seemingly offered as a would-be justification from the 'pusher' / Lian Jiansheng.


"I pushed him off because jumpers like Chen are very selfish. Their action violates a lot of public interests,"

"They do not really dare to kill themselves. Instead, they just want to raise the relevant government authorities' attention to their appeals..."


Suggests a great deal about Jiansheng's personal value system and what he ascertains to be a culturally-appropriate punitive response to behavior threatening stable governance.

Could be less - perhaps Jiansheng is simply a psychopath, acting on his own accord to disseminate his personal M.O., which in no way reflects the social system of his origin. After all, the story was bizarre enough to earn a position in Reuters...


Fascinating, nonetheless.

Interesting. Jiansheng was propounding his value system in an active manner.

The following is unusual: Suicide teenager urged to jump by baying crowd - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3108987/Suicide-teenager-urged-to-jump-by-baying-crowd.html)

The crowd urged the lad to jump (which he did - killing himself) but it appears to be passive - and indicitive of an absence of a value system by the onlookers.

Don't expect any sympathy from a busy commuter or a crowd of British scumbags.

[EcK]

I agree with the fact that people who're whining treatening to kill themselves should
a) get help from people they know and who care about them
b) not waste the rest of the world's time being selfish whiney pricks.

I seriously don't care if people kill themselves, it's their choice.
I'm willing to attempt to help them, and I did in the past, but ultimately prefering death to whatever else is a choice idiots\cowards make (and no i won't give that point up).
Some people, strong people, give up, some don't, but giving up and dying isn't the same thing.

Now in that particular situation you can't run a society if you do not punish a guy for pushing another one from a bridge, so my personal opinion does not really apply.

And I love how every bit of information leaking from china is always accompanied with some propaganda.

[NewEra]

Here's the picture of the Lian Jiansheng giving the suicide jumper a handshake right before pushing him off:

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090523/capt.46d754e730d44881b1e61150f0535084.china_xbej80 1.jpg?x=400&y=300&q=85&sig=IAJcSYMkKgd.wbw4StI1SA--

AND - here's the video:

China bridge jumper


Aside from the tragedy of suicide, the most compelling bit of data was the selected quote snippet, seemingly offered as a would-be justification from the 'pusher' / Lian Jiansheng.


"I pushed him off because jumpers like Chen are very selfish. Their action violates a lot of public interests,"

"They do not really dare to kill themselves. Instead, they just want to raise the relevant government authorities' attention to their appeals..."


Suggests a great deal about Jiansheng's personal value system and what he ascertains to be a culturally-appropriate punitive response to behavior threatening stable governance.

Could be less - perhaps Jiansheng is simply a psychopath, acting on his own accord to disseminate his personal M.O., which in no way reflects the social system of his origin. After all, the story was bizarre enough to earn a position in Reuters...


Fascinating, nonetheless.

Good points. When I first saw this article, my immediate reaction to this article was hey I would do the same thing. He's wasted 5 hours of peoples' time, he deserves to be punished. Then again, you have to think about your actions, and as toonia said, because Jiansheng said he knew the 'jumpers' like Chen wouldn't actually kill themselves, he is likely going to be charged with attempted murder.

On the topic of suicide, I feel it's taking the coward's way out. The people who generally commit suicide are very troubled and wish to escape this trouble by ending their lives. Of course there are so many better options than this. Life is a gift, we should be thankful for it.

[MacGuffin]

Is it wrong I laughed when I read the thread title?

I have compassion for people that commit or attempt suicide. Less compassion for those that do it publicly. Almost none for those that threaten it in public.

[Anonymous]

Is it wrong I laughed when I read the thread title?


I did too - and then continued to do so while reading the article. And watching the video.

[jenocyde]

This is hilarious. I wonder why Chen didn't pull Lai down with him. I would have.

[Silently Honest]

I lol'd heartily.

[Night]

Did you guys miss that the suicide pushee only hurt his wrist and got bruised? Had he actually died, I wouldn't have made such a comment.

Thanks for the correction.

The malignancy of intent demonstrated by Jiansheng remains dynamic, irrespective of outcome.

In other words, good luck doesn't alter the need to examine motivational impulses that led to Jiansheng's decision / subsequent defense of his action.

The incident itself is less important than the events that led up to its justification.

[BlackCat]

The guy didn't die, I can see why he did it actually. I think it's sort of funny personally. Failed attempt at suicide because someone pushed him off, the irony. :D If you watch the video it actually seems like the guy aimed for the would be suicide victim to land on the cushion. It seems like he was arrested because the authorities didn't know what else to do.

Just my 2c.

[Silently Honest]

In his mind he's going "At least now everyone can finally go to work."

[digesthisickness]

The crowd urged the lad to jump (which he did - killing himself) but it appears to be passive - and indicitive of an absence of a value system by the onlookers.

Don't expect any sympathy from a busy commuter or a crowd of British scumbags.

uh, cheering someone on to jump doesn't mean they don't have a value system. it just means they didn't value his life any more than he did.

Is it wrong I laughed when I read the thread title?

I have compassion for people that commit or attempt suicide. Less compassion for those that do it publicly. Almost none for those that threaten it in public.

same here. not saying it's always the case, but ime, i've had at least nine friends and family commit suicide, and every time it was successful, it was a complete shock to everyone. those friends, etc. that threaten(ed) it publicly are alive and well and still doing it today. like it's another way of throwing a funeral when you're still alive, just to see who fell for it and showed up, what they said, and how hard they cried. pure selfishness.

of course i feel bad when someone does it, but at the same time, i can't control or save the world. at some point, i had to accept the fact that they made their choice, and take from that a more conscious attempt to watch and listen to those i love a little more carefully.

[Nocap]

Suggests a great deal about Jiansheng's personal value system and what he ascertains to be a culturally-appropriate punitive response to behavior threatening stable governance.

Could be less - perhaps Jiansheng is simply a psychopath, acting on his own accord to disseminate his personal M.O., which in no way reflects the social system of his origin. After all, the story was bizarre enough to earn a position in Reuters...

on the other hand, he may not have done it as a punitive measure, but simply to make way for the affected entities to resume progress.

eliminating an obstacle, rather than punishing an offender.
Jiansheng should have known that the fall wouldn't kill Chen.

rash action is rarely explained well -- idiot right brainers.

Jiansheng mentioned about how selfish Chen was. i suppose it could be interpreted either way: either being about punishing a criminal or removing a [selfish] road-block.

[miked277]

Is it wrong I laughed when I read the thread title?

I have compassion for people that commit or attempt suicide. Less compassion for those that do it publicly. Almost none for those that threaten it in public.

dude, i laughed as well.

and after watching the video i think the pusher did the exact right thing. i would have pushed this douch bag into the giant cushion too if he had held me up for 5 hours. the title of the thread made it sound like the guy threatening suicide actually died instead of sufferring a fractured wrist or whatever.

[Curzon]

"And they lived happily ever after."

I love happy endings.

[run]

Interesting. Jiansheng was propounding his value system in an active manner.

The following is unusual: Suicide teenager urged to jump by baying crowd - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3108987/Suicide-teenager-urged-to-jump-by-baying-crowd.html)

The crowd urged the lad to jump (which he did - killing himself) but it appears to be passive - and indicitive of an absence of a value system by the onlookers.

Don't expect any sympathy from a busy commuter or a crowd of British scumbags.

That made me sick.

[iwakar]

Interesting. Jiansheng was propounding his value system in an active manner.

The following is unusual: Suicide teenager urged to jump by baying crowd - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3108987/Suicide-teenager-urged-to-jump-by-baying-crowd.html)

The crowd urged the lad to jump (which he did - killing himself) but it appears to be passive - and indicitive of an absence of a value system by the onlookers.

Don't expect any sympathy from a busy commuter or a crowd of British scumbags.

I momentarily lost my powers of speech after reading that.

[Lurker]

Thanks for the correction.

The malignancy of intent demonstrated by Jiansheng remains dynamic, irrespective of outcome.

In other words, good luck doesn't alter the need to examine motivational impulses that led to Jiansheng's decision / subsequent defense of his action.

The incident itself is less important than the events that led up to its justification.

Night, I find myself agreeing with your posts quite a lot.

My personal reaction: I didn't think it was funny. The "pusher" should probably be tried for attempted murder...I don't care if so-called suicidal dude held up traffic, was bluffing or not, or if he only sustained minor injuries. Jiansheng had no way of knowing the outcome. I echo the bolded sentence above.

[Lurker]

That made me sick.

Yep. People can be pretty disgusting, especially in groups.

[Lurker]

...and after watching the video i think the pusher did the exact right thing. i would have pushed this douch bag into the giant cushion too if he had held me up for 5 hours. the title of the thread made it sound like the guy threatening suicide actually died instead of sufferring a fractured wrist or whatever.

Maybe one day you will end up in a desperate, sad situation that makes you look like a fool. Six degrees of separation and all that. :cool:

[toonia]

Maybe one day you will end up in a desperate, sad situation that makes you look like a fool. Six degrees of separation and all that. :cool:My initial response to someone making a self-destructive public spectacle is not, "selfish", but instead "not well". In the mind of the jumper there was something compelling enough to act this out. The chance of some kind of mental instability or chemical balance is present. I don't quite understand going at character as a first assumption because it takes much more time and information to understand a person's character. Illness makes more sense as an initial reaction imo. It matches the situation in a more plausible way because there is proof of some sort of desperation and extreme thinking.

[Lurker]

My initial response to someone making a self-destructive public spectacle is not, "selfish", but instead "not well". In the mind of the jumper there was something compelling enough to act this out. The chance of some kind of mental instability or chemical balance is present. I don't quite understand going at character as a first assumption because it takes much more time and information to understand a person's character. Illness makes more sense as an initial reaction imo. It matches the situation in a more plausible way because there is proof of some sort of desperation and extreme thinking.

Good points, toonia.

I think a lot of people have trouble empathizing with the man because they cannot imagine themselves in a similar position; in short, they can say "I would never do such a ridiculous act" and pat themselves on the back. Under the right circumstances, people may find themselves in situations that they never thought possible. It could be the fundamental attribution error at work; they see the man as a selfish, defective individual, not as a product of complex circumstances (including some possible synaptic misfiring!)

[MacGuffin]

No, I can see myself in similar situation.

And still see it as selfish and defective. As most suicidal people are.

[Lurker]

No, I can see myself in similar situation.

And still see it as selfish and defective. As most suicidal people are.

"Defective?" That sounds Ptahesque.

I guess it's a touchy subject. People who have emerged from situations victorious are often pretty judgmental of those still stuck in the muck. It's nice to distance yourself.

Also, genuinely depressed people hate their plight and would give anything to escape it. People like this guy seem more histrionic. Doesn't mean he wasn't really depressed, just that he probably didn't intend to really kill himself.

[MacGuffin]

"Defective?" That sounds Ptahesque.

I guess it's a touchy subject. People who have emerged from situations victorious are often pretty judgmental of those still stuck in the muck. It's nice to distance yourself.

Defective, broken, ill... they all work.

They need to get better, fixed, healed.

[Lurker]

Defective, broken, ill... they all work.

They need to get better, fixed, healed.
Ah, ok. I'm on board with that.

[Mempy]

I like that Night seems to think that this man's value system may reflect, to some extent, the larger culture of which he is a part. It's especially interesting to me to look at it from that angle as well.

Lian Jiansheng is the epitome of presumption to make a judgment and punishment of this nature. He could just as easily ended the the scenario by pulling the man away from the bridge. He admitted to committing murder because his statement is that he assumed the man did not want to kill himself. That is murder. Self-righteous justifications for punishment are at the core of humanity's cruel nature. In the scope of his influence, Lian Jiansheng has acted with tyranny.

I don't know if he could have just as easily ended the scenario by pulling him off. I don't think he would have had nearly as easy a time pulling him off as he would have pushing him off. Perhaps, also, it would have been more dangerous to try to get him off the bridge by any other means than pushing; the only part of the bridge that had a safety cushion under it was the part he was pushed from, right? I can also see him being relatively positive that the man wouldn't be seriously injured. His decision to push him off was radical, perhaps reckless, and perhaps cruel, but I can't say that with certainty.

In any case, I laughed.

My initial response to someone making a self-destructive public spectacle is not, "selfish", but instead "not well". In the mind of the jumper there was something compelling enough to act this out. The chance of some kind of mental instability or chemical balance is present. I don't quite understand going at character as a first assumption because it takes much more time and information to understand a person's character. Illness makes more sense as an initial reaction imo. It matches the situation in a more plausible way because there is proof of some sort of desperation and extreme thinking.

I agree. I also think that selfishness doesn't always have to be a reflection of character. To me, it's possible there are biological roots for a lot of personality traits that would seem to be character traits but are really out of the individual's power to control.

[toonia]

No, I can see myself in similar situation.

And still see it as selfish and defective. As most suicidal people are.
Here's a question. So what if they are selfish and/or defective? Is there any reason that is even worth mentioning? The selfish part would be the normal part, the part like the rest in the crowd. I've dealt with suicidal people and am aware of the kind of ego-centric reasoning that goes with heightened states of anxiety and depression. It is a lack of awareness of anything outside their pain and therefore centered on self. That is the disease of it.

There is a problem, take care of the immediate problem by removing the person from traffic. Take care of the longer-term problem by getting the person treatment. There's nothing to judge from what I can see. Needing to condemn the man doesn't reflect on the desperate person, but on the crowds own selfishness and neediness. [rhetorical statement to people in such crowds] Go judge someone "your own size", rather than someone in a state of desperation. It's just too easy to find fault and feel superior to desperate people.

Even though it's ironic, I don't find this kind of shit funny.

[Lurker]

Here's a question. So what if they are selfish and/or defective? Is there any reason that is even worth mentioning? The selfish part would be the normal part, the part like the rest in the crowd.

There is a problem, take care of the immediate problem by removing the person from traffic. Take care of the longer-term problem by getting the person treatment. There's nothing to judge from what I can see. Needing to condemn the man doesn't reflect on the desperate person, but on the crowds own selfishness and neediness. {rhetorical statement to people in such crowds] Go judge someone "your own size", rather than someone in a state of desperation. It's just too easy to find fault and feel superior to desperate people.

Even though it's ironic, I don't find this kind of shit funny.

+1

[MacGuffin]

Here's a question. So what if they are selfish and/or defective? Is there any reason that is even worth mentioning? The selfish part would be the normal part, the part like the rest in the crowd.

There is a problem, take care of the immediate problem by removing the person from traffic. Take care of the longer-term problem by getting the person treatment. There's nothing to judge from what I can see. Needing to condemn the man doesn't reflect on the desperate person, but on the crowds own selfishness and neediness. {rhetorical statement to people in such crowds] Go judge someone "your own size", rather than someone in a state of desperation. It's just too easy to find fault and feel superior to desperate people.

Even though it's ironic, I don't find this kind of shit funny.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/17086-why-nfs-think-they-understand-nts.html

[Nocap]

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/17086-why-nfs-think-they-understand-nts.html

+1

[toonia]

Can you clarify, MacGuffin? My post was not meant as an attack on yours. I tried to clarify that with the [rhetorical statement] remark. Does type refer to the scenario or your post? I don't actually have an opinion about your personal position on the subject in case that wasn't clear. My comments are directed in a very general sense. The first paragraph are questions relating to your post. The rest has little or nothing to do with your post.

Once a post is quoted, everything said that follows is assumed directly related to that post. I need to find a better way than paragraph breaks to clarify that. Does it read differently to you with the paragraph break?

[Lurker]

MacGuffin, I don't think this issue is a T or F one. I know several Ts who weren't amused. I simply can't get on board with this one..too much empathy. I doubt the guy intended for the incident to become the clusterfuck it did, and even if he didn't care, he felt horrible enough to get to that point in the first place. For that alone I have pity.

[MacGuffin]

Can you clarify, MacGuffin? My post was not meant as an attack on yours. I tried to clarify that with the [rhetorical statement] remark. Does type refer to the scenario or your post? I don't actually have an opinion about your personal position on the subject in case that wasn't clear. My comments are directed in a very general sense. The first paragraph are questions relating to your post. The rest has little or nothing to do with your post.

Once a post is quoted, everything said that follows is assumed directly related to that post. I need to find a better way than paragraph breaks to clarify that. Does it read differently to you with the paragraph break?

A misread then on my part.

I find if one wishes to make a general remark, it's best not to quote anyone.

[toonia]

A misread then on my part.

I find if one wishes to make a general remark, it's best not to quote anyone.
I understand the misread, and apologize for lack of clarity.

[MacGuffin]

I understand the misread, and apologize for lack of clarity.

In general though, I don't make it known what I find funny in public or among friends/family. They think I'm already weird enough as it is. They don't need to know every dark thought that crosses my mind.

I actually restrain myself here too. ;) I write a lot that I don't show anyone.

I do find the suicidal extraordinarily selfish though. They are so unable to see beyond themselves. It's a symptom of the problem. The ones that make a public spectacle of their "suicide attempt" I find aren't very serious about acutally killing themselves. They just want attention.

[Kai]

General question:
Why is the desire for attention always looked upon as a negative thing?
When someone is desperate enough to cry 'suicide', there's a major problem imo.

[toonia]

In general though, I don't make it known what I find funny in public or among friends/family. They think I'm already weird enough as it is. They don't need to know every dark thought that crosses my mind.

I actually restrain myself here too. ;) I write a lot that I don't show anyone.I think alot of people find these particular kinds of topics funny when presented in a detached manner, and there are many reasons for it. It doesn't actually have much connection to how the person actually feels and relates to other people. I know by saying I don't think it's funny people could assume I'm judging them, or am an overall bump on a log. I just didn't want to say I think something is funny if that isn't how I actually see it.

I do find the suicidal extraordinarily selfish though. They are so unable to see beyond themselves. It's a symptom of the problem. The ones that make a public spectacle of their "suicide attempt" I find aren't very serious about acutally killing themselves. They just want attention.I suspect this happens - possibly the majority of the time. What about the time this is not the case? In my reasoning I see a wide array of possible motivations and conclude it isn't worth the risk to make the assumption and act on it if there are plausible explanations for which such judgments and actions would be inhumane. It is that smaller percent chance of it being something different that makes it worth taking a neutral approach that disregards any set of assumptions, or uses the broadest set of assumptions to act on.

Inhumane acts are typically exaggerated and justified by group think and mob mentality. I tend to take a stronger position against it because it is a stronger force to be reckoned with.

[Morgan Le Fay]

There is a problem, take care of the immediate problem by removing the person from traffic. Take care of the longer-term problem by getting the person treatment. There's nothing to judge from what I can see. Needing to condemn the man doesn't reflect on the desperate person, but on the crowds own selfishness and neediness. [rhetorical statement to people in such crowds] Go judge someone "your own size", rather than someone in a state of desperation. It's just too easy to find fault and feel superior to desperate people.

Even though it's ironic, I don't find this kind of shit funny.

+1

[MacGuffin]

I suspect this happens - possibly the majority of the time. What about the time this is not the case? In my reasoning I see a wide array of possible motivations and conclude it isn't worth the risk to make the assumption and act on it if there are plausible explanations for which such judgments and actions would be inhumane. It is that smaller percent chance of it being something different that makes it worth taking a neutral approach that disregards any set of assumptions, or uses the broadest set of assumptions to act on.

Mostly because my viewpoint doesn't matter. I'm not talking the person off the ledge, or counseling them.

[Lurker]

I suspect this happens - possibly the majority of the time. What about the time this is not the case? In my reasoning I see a wide array of possible motivations and conclude it isn't worth the risk to make the assumption and act on it if there are plausible explanations for which such judgments and actions would be inhumane. It is that smaller percent chance of it being something different that makes it worth taking a neutral approach that disregards any set of assumptions, or uses the broadest set of assumptions to act on.

Inhumane acts are typically exaggerated and justified by group think and mob mentality. I tend to take a stronger position against it because it is a stronger force to be reckoned with.

*nods*

Again, +1

[marmalade.sunrise]

I originally read this in the newspaper and one of my first thoughts was that Chinese culture is tradtionally more focused on unselfishness and group unity and this type of emotional display might be more strongly frowned upon in their culture than in ours.

However, I'm not justifying what the man did in any way. The man threatening to jump obviously is crying out for professional help. Then again, as others have already pointed out, it's not like the suicidal man died or anything. The man who pushed him did not commit murder.

I would be much more shocked by this if the man had died.

[Morgan Le Fay]

I do find the suicidal extraordinarily selfish though. They are so unable to see beyond themselves. It's a symptom of the problem. The ones that make a public spectacle of their "suicide attempt" I find aren't very serious about acutally killing themselves. They just want attention.

Yeah. What about those blind people, so unable to see beyond themselves. Selfish bastards! I like to trip them up.

[MacGuffin]

Yeah. What about those blind people, so unable to see beyond themselves. Selfish bastards! I like to trip them up.

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Sponge24/makeitcount.jpg

[Nocap]

+1

+1

+1

*nods*

Again, +1

this is getting out of hand.

[Lateralus]

General question:
Why is the desire for attention always looked upon as a negative thing?
When someone is desperate enough to cry 'suicide', there's a major problem imo.
It's annoying and it's not my problem. Someone trying to make it my problem is rude. That's imposing.

[Lasting_Pain]

That article gives new meaning to the term, "helping hand".

Dang it you took my punchline. Man!!!!


I do not know what to say, but it is quite funny.

[Athenian200]

A suicide jumper was pushed off the bridge.

How ironic.

[BerberElla]

General question:
Why is the desire for attention always looked upon as a negative thing?
When someone is desperate enough to cry 'suicide', there's a major problem imo.


Agreed. :yes:

My first thoughts when I hear something like this, are about the back story, and all the stuff that leads up to this point.

[Fluffywolf]

My hope is that everyone that attempts suicide for the sake of attention, accidentally succeed in doing so. I have no reservations whatsoever for people commiting suicide.

[Beat]

This story is amazing.

Hopefully Chen receives the psychotherapy he needs.

[nonsequitur]

I originally read this in the newspaper and one of my first thoughts was that Chinese culture is tradtionally more focused on unselfishness and group unity and this type of emotional display might be more strongly frowned upon in their culture than in ours.

However, I'm not justifying what the man did in any way. The man threatening to jump obviously is crying out for professional help. Then again, as others have already pointed out, it's not like the suicidal man died or anything. The man who pushed him did not commit murder.

I would be much more shocked by this if the man had died.

I saw this thread yesterday, and thought that it would be interesting to read the "Western" view of things before posting my thoughts.

I'm completely unsurprised by the reactions, to be honest. I am, however, feeling amused by how stereotypical it is.

I've always described the difference between Westerners and Asians as being an inverted hierarchy. In the Western world, you have individuals first, followed by family, society, a country, etc. It's completely the opposite with Asians, specifically Chinese, Korean and Japanese people. As individuals, you have responsibility to your country first, then society, then your family, before you can talk about individual rights.

I've always felt that this difference in values is the reason why maniacs shoot other people at school (the "I'm always right" attitude) in the Western world, and the suicide rate is comparably high (the "I've let down other people and can't face the world" attitude) in the East.

As such, what this man is doing, from my own (Chinese) perspective, is incredibly selfish. He doesn't really mean to commit suicide, and he's doing this to bring attention to some cause of his. It is no wonder that he gets no sympathy. Chinese people only have sympathy for people who face incredible situations and odds, and STILL FIGHT ON. This guy... I'm not saying that he should've been pushed, but if someone had pulled him in and he'd fractured his wrist and been bruised (before being arrested), would people have reacted similarly?

The guy who pushed him was doing so from this perspective - that the suicidal guy is antisocial, and not considerate. He was well aware that there was an airbag underneath, and that the guy wouldn't die. He wasn't trying to kill the guy. As such, it wasn't attempted murder. At worst, it was reckless endangerment.

*shrugs* I can assure you that it's not a big deal in China, and people are not arguing about "getting the jumper help" and whether they pusher was right or wrong. It's completely irrelevant to the purpose of the law there - maintaining stability and preserving the peace. Also, among 1 billion people, there are lots of crazy people. The best that you can do is keep them from harming other people.

[bananatrombones]

I originally read this in the newspaper and one of my first thoughts was that Chinese culture is tradtionally more focused on unselfishness and group unity and this type of emotional display might be more strongly frowned upon in their culture than in ours.

However, I'm not justifying what the man did in any way. The man threatening to jump obviously is crying out for professional help. Then again, as others have already pointed out, it's not like the suicidal man died or anything. The man who pushed him did not commit murder.

I would be much more shocked by this if the man had died.

The question is one of intent. The outcome is irrelevant, except perhaps to Mr Chen.

Intentionality is a fascinating subject.

[Kai]

I've always described the difference between Westerners and Asians as being an inverted hierarchy. In the Western world, you have individuals first, followed by family, society, a country, etc. It's completely the opposite with Asians, specifically Chinese, Korean and Japanese people. As individuals, you have responsibility to your country first, then society, then your family, before you can talk about individual rights.

I've always felt that this difference in values is the reason why maniacs shoot other people at school (the "I'm always right" attitude) in the Western world, and the suicide rate is comparably high (the "I've let down other people and can't face the world" attitude) in the East.

That's quite interesting. Having said that while the chinese believe in the whole family before individual thing, I don't believe it's true that they are closer with their family. This is going off extremely generalised stereotypes but I find that with western relationships, parent-children relationships tend can be more varied in terms of love and hatred. Where as with asian families, there's constantly a more detached sense of grouping. That's the result of group bonding but a lack of individuals bonding.


As such, what this man is doing, from my own (Chinese) perspective, is incredibly selfish. He doesn't really mean to commit suicide, and he's doing this to bring attention to some cause of his. It is no wonder that he gets no sympathy. Chinese people only have sympathy for people who face incredible situations and odds, and STILL FIGHT ON.

Wouldn't that be a feeling of admiration rather than sympathy? Sympathy is usually expressed for the negative scenario, not the positive scenario. Not to mention that this produces the whole pressure system on Asia. Japan has the highest suicide rates, that's not a good thing. It's probably alot more than the usual outburst of shootings in the west, but the UK doesn't really have that sort of problem.

It's annoying and it's not my problem. Someone trying to make it my problem is rude. That's imposing.

Well I'll admit that they could do it a more considerate manner, but the whole point is that they aren't mentally sound. They aren't exactly going to be doing the complete rational thing, because of the immense feelings that can lead to this sort of behaviour.

Otherwise... I suppose you wouldn't go down this path?

[nozflubber]

hahaha, this is hilarious

[jenocyde]

I've always described the difference between Westerners and Asians as being an inverted hierarchy. In the Western world, you have individuals first, followed by family, society, a country, etc. It's completely the opposite with Asians, specifically Chinese, Korean and Japanese people. As individuals, you have responsibility to your country first, then society, then your family, before you can talk about individual rights.

I've always felt that this difference in values is the reason why maniacs shoot other people at school (the "I'm always right" attitude) in the Western world, and the suicide rate is comparably high (the "I've let down other people and can't face the world" attitude) in the East.

I thought the same while reading the article. That the jumper was somehow asking for it (according to the societies viewpoint).

But as far as the shooting stuff goes, I remember reading an article blaming the film Oldboy for the VA Tech tragedy by that Korean shooter. I also remember a case of a Korean cop shooting like 60 people, and then of course there was that recent Korean Christian retreat shooting. I know these events are few and far between but do you have any opinion or insight into why this may be?

[Fluffywolf]

Korea is the like black sheep of the east. Weird things happen there regardless of stereotypical conundrums.

[Haphazard]

What will become of Mr. Chen?

Because I'm just thinking, that if most people don't jump, well, I've heard of some pretty crazy things that people will go through to get to the front of the line when it comes to psychiatric help, quite literally.

Then again, that may be another east/west divide thing.

[nonsequitur]

That's quite interesting. Having said that while the chinese believe in the whole family before individual thing, I don't believe it's true that they are closer with their family. This is going off extremely generalised stereotypes but I find that with western relationships, parent-children relationships tend can be more varied in terms of love and hatred. Where as with asian families, there's constantly a more detached sense of grouping. That's the result of group bonding but a lack of individuals bonding.
I never said anything about individuals being closer to their family. I don't know where you got that from what I said. I just said that in Asian societies (in general) our first responsibility is to the greater good.

Wouldn't that be a feeling of admiration rather than sympathy? Sympathy is usually expressed for the negative scenario, not the positive scenario. Not to mention that this produces the whole pressure system on Asia. Japan has the highest suicide rates, that's not a good thing. It's probably alot more than the usual outburst of shootings in the west, but the UK doesn't really have that sort of problem.
No. Sympathy is for people who try really hard, with the world against them, and FAIL (e.g. that Chinese hurdler at the Olympics who tried running with injury, for the sake of his country and family). Admiration is reserved for people who are preternaturally smart/charismatic and are therefore successful at life and bring "glory" to the family/country.


But as far as the shooting stuff goes, I remember reading an article blaming the film Oldboy for the VA Tech tragedy by that Korean shooter. I also remember a case of a Korean cop shooting like 60 people, and then of course there was that recent Korean Christian retreat shooting. I know these events are few and far between but do you have any opinion or insight into why this may be?

You know as well as I do that blaming a film for a tragedy like the VA Tech shootings is ridiculous.

My reading of that situation is that they are no longer in a place where such cultural norms and familial expectations are placed on their shoulders. At the same time, being isolated and alienated (if you noticed, the Chinese guy at the Binghamton shootings was also an immigrant, the student at VA Tech was an international student) as well as racist (most Asians are racist, I'm going to be blasted here, but it is a fact that most people are racist and exclusive) and having free access to guns leads to these violent outbursts.

Also, most Asian nations have a very very strict control on weapons. It ensures social stability as only the military and police has access to firearms (and maintains totalitarian regimes).

[ptgatsby]

Korea is the like black sheep of the east.

It's an interesting place. I always thought of them like the French of Europe.

I understand the OP and the action taken, although I'm mixed on my opinion of it. It is extremely bad manners (which sounds funny in 'western' terms, but 'bad manners' has a very strong social meaning) to inconvenience someone else, and this is pretty much the height of it.

[jenocyde]

You know as well as I do that blaming a film for a tragedy like the VA Tech shootings is ridiculous.

My reading of that situation is that they are no longer in a place where such cultural norms and familial expectations are placed on their shoulders. At the same time, being isolated and alienated (if you noticed, the Chinese guy at the Binghamton shootings was also an immigrant, the student at VA Tech was an international student) as well as racist (most Asians are racist, I'm going to be blasted here, but it is a fact that most people are racist and exclusive) and having free access to guns leads to these violent outbursts.

Also, most Asian nations have a very very strict control on weapons. It ensures social stability as only the military and police has access to firearms (and maintains totalitarian regimes).

Of course I know that blaming a film is ridiculous, I'm just wondering if people buy into that to explain these actions away. I know these were isolated incidents, I was just wondering how they were viewed within Asian communities.

And I agree that many Asians are racist, but I'd also be hard pressed to find any group that doesn't carry some sort of "ism".

[nonsequitur]

Of course I know that blaming a film is ridiculous, I'm just wondering if people buy into that to explain these actions away. I know these were isolated incidents, I was just wondering how they were viewed within Asian communities.

And I agree that many Asians are racist, but I'd also be hard pressed to find any group that doesn't carry some sort of "ism".

Meh. My grandmother blamed my aunt's cancer on eating too much seafood. It caused a rift between my uncle-in-law and her till her death. The blame-game will go on and on, and people (regardless of race) will over-simplify stuff and make ridiculous assertions. I actually was about to edit my comment to take out the sharpness, but was too slow... I apologise for that (it's 3am and I should go to bed).

As far as how Asian communities view these things... we usually write it off as the actions of a "crazy person" or "due to bad upbringing". That's part of the reason for social conformism - you don't want to reflect badly on your family.

[Kai]

I never said anything about individuals being closer to their family. I don't know where you got that from what I said. I just said that in Asian societies (in general) our first responsibility is to the greater good.

I'm just writing down my own experience and observations as a fellow asian. But it would make more sense that if individuals are so concerned about family and bonds, or a culture that promotes family and society, that they would indeed be closer to them on a personal level. Yet oddly enough this has not been my experience and appears to be relatively true for other chinese friends. There's more a sense of detached respect for elders. I just find it very funny.

Obviously my conclusion and experience will be different as I'm speaking from the perspective of a BBC.

No. Sympathy is for people who try really hard, with the world against them, and FAIL (e.g. that Chinese hurdler at the Olympics who tried running with injury, for the sake of his country and family). Admiration is reserved for people who are preternaturally smart/charismatic and are therefore successful at life and bring "glory" to the family/country.

Hmm?

"Chinese people only have sympathy for people who face incredible situations and odds, and STILL FIGHT ON."

If they are still fighting on. Can you really classify it as a failure? I'd have admiration for someone who can do so.
Sympathy is for those who have given up on themselves and their life.
Perhaps this is where the communication failure is occuring.

[jenocyde]

Meh. My grandmother blamed my aunt's cancer on eating too much seafood. It caused a rift between my uncle-in-law and her till her death. The blame-game will go on and on, and people (regardless of race) will over-simplify stuff and make ridiculous assertions. I actually was about to edit my comment to take out the sharpness, but was too slow... I apologise for that (it's 3am and I should go to bed).

As far as how Asian communities view these things... we usually write it off as the actions of a "crazy person" or "due to bad upbringing". That's part of the reason for social conformism - you don't want to reflect badly on your family.

What sharpness? I'm confused as to why you are apologizing... Either way, that makes sense. I had a lot of Asian friends in high school and I remember parents getting blamed every time we went out and got drunk. I kind of felt bad since I had one friend in particular who got into drugs and was a constant source of shame for the rest of the family. It seemed like a lot of pressure. But I get it. Everyone has their own set of values.

[Fluffywolf]

Yeah, I would not have done well in an asian family. :yes:

[Litvyak]

Am I the only one who thinks this story is sort of funny? Frustrated a.hole held up traffic for 5 hours, another frustrated a.hole gave him a helping hand, and the first guy hurts his wrist instead of killing himself? I mean... seriously, LOL.

[Fluffywolf]

You are not alone, Mr. Spock.

[nonsequitur]

I'm just writing down my own experience and observations as a fellow asian. But it would make more sense that if individuals are so concerned about family and bonds, or a culture that promotes family and society, that they would indeed be closer to them on a personal level. Yet oddly enough this has not been my experience and appears to be relatively true for other chinese friends. There's more a sense of detached respect for elders. I just find it very funny.

Obviously my conclusion and experience will be different as I'm speaking from the perspective of a BBC.
Yeah, I just didn't see its relevance to what you quoted.

It would not necessarily follow that individuals concerned about family and bonds would mean that they are closer to either entities. Not when the relationship is based on socially-dictated responsibilities, and not the needs of the individual. I can be a socially-defined "good daughter" and "good citizen" but not get what I need emotionally from my family. On the other hand, I know families who fight all the time, but are very close because they understand each other and are unconditionally supportive.

Hmm?

If they are still fighting on. Can you really classify it as a failure? I'd have admiration for someone who can do so.
Sympathy is for those who have given up on themselves and their life.
Perhaps this is where the communication failure is occuring.

Yes, it is failure by objective standards. He did not win a medal. The whole idea of "participating, not winning is the most important thing" is a very Western one. There are no "best handwriting" awards in Asia, I can assure you. You get caned for bad handwriting (until you improve), criticised for average handwriting and if yours is the best, no one will say anything.

In a similar fashion, sympathy is for people who try their best and fail. People who give up on themselves shouldn't expect others to care about them or to lend them a helping hand. There is an oft-repeated phrase, "if you don't help yourself, how can you expect others to help you?" which applies here.

What sharpness? I'm confused as to why you are apologizing... Either way, that makes sense. I had a lot of Asian friends in high school and I remember parents getting blamed every time we went out and got drunk. I kind of felt bad since I had one friend in particular who got into drugs and was a constant source of shame for the rest of the family. It seemed like a lot of pressure. But I get it. Everyone has their own set of values.

Eh, I felt I was being sharp. Anyway.

Yes, there is pressure. It's socially/family-imposed until it's so ingrained in the individual that it becomes self-imposed. Businessmen around the world may work 90-100 hours a week, but in the Western world, it's because they want to get ahead. In the East, it's because they feel like they have a responsibility to. The Japanese businessmen suicide phenomenon is a product of that.

[Kai]

Yeah, I just didn't see its relevance to what you quoted.

It would not necessarily follow that individuals concerned about family and bonds would mean that they are closer to either entities. Not when the relationship is based on socially-dictated responsibilities, and not the needs of the individual. I can be a socially-defined "good daughter" and "good citizen" but not get what I need emotionally from my family. On the other hand, I know families who fight all the time, but are very close because they understand each other and are unconditionally supportive.


That does make total sense.


Yes, it is failure by objective standards. He did not win a medal. The whole idea of "participating, not winning is the most important thing" is a very Western one.

Curious, what do you personally think of the latter statement?
While it's not exactly the same as winning: My father talks about just doing your best as you possibly can. Surely this isn't just a western ideal, but an eastern ideal as well?

Essentially how important is success by objective winning compared to determination of pushing through and doing your best (participating).


In a similar fashion, sympathy is for people who try their best and fail. People who give up on themselves shouldn't expect others to care about them or to lend them a helping hand. There is an oft-repeated phrase, "if you don't help yourself, how can you expect others to help you?" which applies here.

Agreed with that last statement, although there are times when some people hit the bottom low that it's not possible to recover without assistance first. Otherwise we wouldn't have suicides in the first place. Perhaps this is a feeler thing, expressing sympathy and empathy towards people who have had their will crushed so low that they can not get back up.

I'm now curious for example the difference in depression rates in the west and east. How much of it exists and how many people seek out help?

Not to mention from what I last recalled Asia generally had a very negative reaction towards individuals with social problems such as depression, schizoid and all that including people in wheel chairs etc. Partially due to the whole success driven culture that now exists within Asia, and the feelings of not wanting to burden society as mentioned previously. I've sort of gone off tangent now....

Opinions? Correct me if I'm incorrect in some places.

[nonsequitur]

^ Responded via PM to avoid derailing the thread.

[sade]

I always wondered if anyone had done that, probably not the first time someone lend a helping hand..

A suicide jumper was pushed off the bridge.

How ironic.

Yeah.

[Oom]

I don't see why people think that a suicidal person has a chemical imbalance or something. I consider it to be like quitting baseball. Quitting life isn't much different, it's a natural part of life when circumstances are pointing towards it.

We've been committing suicide for thousands of years, it's kind of like all of the wars we read about in our history books. Ceasar got stabbed by all of his senate members, and his best friend. If that were to happen now, it would make international attention.

Back then it was just another way to keep on keepin' on. How ironic that we shun all of the things that come naturally to us. We've split ourselves apart from our history like disowning a child.

Why would a person in a bad situation commit suicide on the other hand? Maybe they see that being dead wouldn't be so bad. Maybe it's great. Nobody I know can tell me that being dead is the worst thing in the world. We just dont know what it is.

Death, killing, and suicide are natural parts of being in the animal kingdom.

[Trefle]

First of all, I would like to add what nonsequitur had said, Asian countries had a more group-attached norms. The..sense of normalcy, the conformity, is very high. Even within those teenager groups who are called "deviant". I think this kind of problem had happened in Western / simply American cliques too, but I think personally the standard itself is higher on Asian cultures. Think of it as...highschool cliques. From what I perceived (yay for betrayal of type) the members of the clique themselves, no matter how same, still have individuality. In Asian culture it's less of "wearing an insignia" than "joining an entity compromising of people".

So, yeah, acts like this will be condemned not due to its value by itself (like most of us did here), but more likely for "disturbing the society, disturbing other people". My own country's culture itself are a mix of both (more like, "this is wrong, because it's bad, and the fact that it disturbs people adds more") so I can understand both principles a little. In fact, while the act itself, I understand, is very wrong, I couldn't disagree with the pusher's reason.

And then the value of this kind of act..yeah, I think low of it. I think most truly desperate people who'd really, really had no hope of life wouldn't do it publicly, or simply don't care where. And they deserve nothing but sympathy and grief. This kind of people seems to look for the best place for people to see... and to me, it screams "LOOK AT ME I AM SUFFERING HEAR MY WHININGS BITCHES"

...uh.

[Typology]

It's kind of sad that people let themselves get that down to the point where they feel they need to make their desperation public in a 'shocking' manner. Get over yourself, or stop wasting everybodies time.

[Curzon]

The following is unusual: Suicide teenager urged to jump by baying crowd - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3108987/Suicide-teenager-urged-to-jump-by-baying-crowd.html)

Don't expect any sympathy from a busy commuter or a crowd of British scumbags.

sick. truly bloody sick.
when large crowds gather they do things which are not typically done by them. some may even do things which they think are quite repulsive.

but there are no excuses for acts like this. it is truly sick.

[Trefle]

It's kind of sad that people let themselves get that down to the point where they feel they need to make their desperation public in a 'shocking' manner. Get over yourself, or stop wasting everybodies time.

Strangely, I personally don't think those kind of people are desperate enough.

If they're desperate enough, I think they'll simply want.it.to.END. They won't look for attention.

Of course, that's my own opinion...

[nebbykoo]

It's kind of sad that people let themselves get that down to the point where they feel they need to make their desperation public in a 'shocking' manner. Get over yourself, or stop wasting everybodies time.

Is that what you would have shouted to that poor teenager in England? It's pathetic that people feel compelled to egg a young person on simply because they think it's funny or annoying. Get over yourselves, indeed.

[Kai]

Strangely, I personally don't think those kind of people are desperate enough.

If they're desperate enough, I think they'll simply want.it.to.END. They won't look for attention.

Of course, that's my own opinion...

So what's the stage before claiming life?
Is there a specific direction that people must deal with it?

[Morgan Le Fay]

It's kind of sad that people let themselves get that down to the point where they feel they need to make their desperation public in a 'shocking' manner. Get over yourself, or stop wasting everybodies time.Yeah...they should just take a pill or something.

In fact, while the act itself, I understand, is very wrong, I couldn't disagree with the pusher's reason.

And then the value of this kind of act..yeah, I think low of it. I think most truly desperate people who'd really, really had no hope of life wouldn't do it publicly, or simply don't care where. And they deserve nothing but sympathy and grief. This kind of people seems to look for the best place for people to see... and to me, it screams "LOOK AT ME I AM SUFFERING HEAR MY WHININGS BITCHES"
So only people who no longer have any use for it, deserve sympathy?

I don't see why people think that a suicidal person has a chemical imbalance or something. I consider it to be like quitting baseball. Quitting life isn't much different, it's a natural part of life when circumstances are pointing towards it.

We've been committing suicide for thousands of years, it's kind of like all of the wars we read about in our history books. Ceasar got stabbed by all of his senate members, and his best friend. If that were to happen now, it would make international attention.

Back then it was just another way to keep on keepin' on. How ironic that we shun all of the things that come naturally to us. We've split ourselves apart from our history like disowning a child.

Why would a person in a bad situation commit suicide on the other hand? Maybe they see that being dead wouldn't be so bad. Maybe it's great. Nobody I know can tell me that being dead is the worst thing in the world. We just dont know what it is.

Death, killing, and suicide are natural parts of being in the animal kingdom.
Suicide is not a natural part of anything. WTF are you people talking about? Brutus? What?

Is this the thread where people compete to find out who can say the most moronic thing imaginable?

[FC3S]

He wanted to commit suicide? He should have jumped and been done with it without pissing everyone else off.

[Kangol]

So, did I just miss the part where someone points out the fact that this guy slipped through the police and had time to shake his hand before he pushed him off?

Either he's a ninja or just about everyone was tired of the guy.

[vince]

He wanted to commit suicide? He should have jumped and been done with it without pissing everyone else off.

Your empathy is overwhelming..

It always strikes me how a large majority sees suiciders as losers, who only have theirselves to blame, completely oblivious to the FACT that we live in a world full of injustice.

[jenocyde]

...completely oblivious to the FACT that we live in a world full of injustice.

yeah, like when people hold up traffic for 5 hours. :azdaja:



No one said they are losers and no one is blaming them. This stunt was obviously done for attention.

[Kai]

The way I view these things... Most of it's a cry for attention. I find it odd that most people don't fault a baby for calling out for attention, neither a child but as soon as we hit adulthood. The sense of empathy for somebody wanting attention flies out of the window at such a drastic level. Yeah I get that we're adults and all that, but still...

People deal with problems in multiple ways. I'd imagine there's no set method.

Someone might cope by withdrawing completely from the world. Some might engage in self-harm as an outlet.
Some might engage in attention-seeking behaviour by doing crazy things, alienating themselves from themselves and friends.

It doesn't remove the fact that an underlying problem exists. These people can all be potentially be suffering from immense stress or depression. That in itself deserves my empathy and sympathy imo.

[edward the confessor]

What that article doesn't tell you is that he pushed him o safety, on to a giant air cushion set up by police. So selective, these media types.

[jenocyde]

It doesn't remove the fact that an underlying problem exists. These people can all be potentially be suffering from immense stress or depression. That in itself deserves my empathy and sympathy imo.

Yeah, that's because a baby is helpless and can't communicate (but please notice the fact that I choose not to have children). But with grown people... dude, I got my own problems.

I help everyone I can. I really do more than the average person but I still have opinions about it whether I vocalize it or not. I have no tolerance for people who choose to drag others into their crazy drama. Like all those school shooters who also shoot themselves. I would respect them more if they just shot themselves to begin with... or just asked for help (which I know is not always easy).

And the end result is that these people get what they wanted - attention. Look how many posts, phone calls, forwards and news clips this dude is getting. Isn't this what he wanted?

[Kai]

Yeah, that's because a baby is helpless and can't communicate (but please notice the fact that I choose not to have children). But with grown people... dude, I got my own problems.

I help everyone I can. I really do more than the average person but I still have opinions about it whether I vocalize it or not. I have no tolerance for people who choose to drag others into their crazy drama. Like all those school shooters who also shoot themselves. I would respect them more if they just shot themselves to begin with... or just asked for help (which I know is not always easy).

True.


And the end result is that these people get what they wanted - attention. Look how many posts, phone calls, forwards and news clips this dude is getting. Isn't this what he wanted?

He got his attention... but negative attention? :shock:

[nonsequitur]

He got his attention... but negative attention? :shock:

Personally, "positive attention" is an oxymoron. If you want attention, you can't choose whether it's positive or not, nor can you demand that people react with empathy.

[Kai]

Personally, "positive attention" is an oxymoron. If you want attention, you can't choose whether it's positive or not, nor can you demand that people react with empathy.

While it's not possible to control the reactions of other people, it's easy enough to place yourself in scenarios where the reactions are more likely to be positive or negative.

So yeah, I was basically commenting more on the fact that this guy went into a situation knowing that the attention is more likely to be negative than positive especially with his actions. Is attention really what he wanted? Personally I can't say that with certainty.