Can a new species emerge?

[polikujm]

Can a new species emerge in today's age, not (a) showing itself for the first time, but (b) coming into existence for the first time, branching off an older species, and how long would it take?

I'm asking this out of fear. My cat and dog have been getting awfully close.

[Amargith]

Unlikely. Their spawn would be sterile if at all viable. Just let them have fun.

[cascadeco]

I'm asking this out of fear. My cat and dog have been getting awfully close.

:smile:

In the interest of answering this question seriously....

I think in a short time frame - i.e. years or decades - the notion of a Species, and what constitutes it, can be hazy indeed.

One of my interests is birding - and taxonomists seem to go back and forth between creating more subspecies, and then eventually splitting subspecies off into brand new species, vs. those on the other side of the fence lumping subspecies together into one. I think this is just what happens on such a small time scale. Fuzziness. And, disagreement on the very definition/notion of what a species is. But it's interesting to consider that subspecies could be the start of a branch of what would eventually become a new species --- after a long period of time.

I mean, even on a large time scale, evolution can be kind of fuzzy -- just a constant progression. I think it's when you have geographic isolation that it can be more obvious.

New species emerging in our lifespan? Would have to be a lifeform with a really, really short lifespan - minutes, maybe. Bacterium, insects, or the like.

[Poser]

I think that this would be a good time to reinforce my commitment to rid the world of Manbearpig.

[cascadeco]

I think that this would be a good time to reinforce my commitment to rid the world of Manbearpig.

Manbearpig is indeed a threat to the stability of our society.

[Oberon]

One useful metric in the defining of a species is cross-fertility. If two individual animals cannot produce offspring due to genetic incompatibility, then it's safe to say that they are not the same species. If they can produce offspring but the offspring are not fertile, the result is a "mule," and again the parents are not the same species. However, if the two animals can breed and produce fertile offspring, they are the same species.

Taxonomists may quibble over this definition and they're welcome to, for taxonomic definitions of speciation serve their own purposes and don't really apply to this particular question.

I would say then, that if you can successfully breed two healthy individual animals from a common ancestor and the two individual animals are not cross-fertile, but they are both fertile with other genetically compatible individuals, it's safe to say that you have observed the emergence of a new species.

Has this been observed experimentally? Not to my knowledge.

Could it be? Hard to say. It deserves investigation.

[Quinlan]

Can a Chihuahua and a St Bernard make puppies?

[Oberon]

Can a Chihuahua and a St Bernard make puppies?

Yes. You can artificially inseminate a St. Bernard female with Chihuahua sperm and get puppies.

The proposition wasn't one of taxonomic differences, but of genetic compatibility. Which you already knew.

[Quinlan]

I wonder what those puppies would look like.

[JAVO]

I'm asking this out of fear. My cat and dog have been getting awfully close.

Do not fear. Dogs often attempt to produce offspring with everything, including lampposts, couches, and hot water tanks. Put away your Darwin books, and go get a pot of cold water instead. :D

[polikujm]

Do not fear. Dogs often attempt to produce offspring with everything, including lampposts, couches, and hot water tanks. Put away your Darwin books, and go get a pot of cold water instead. :D

I tried that. I think it just made their nipples harder, which you know...

[BlackCat]

LOL lemons. :doh:

[polikujm]

LOL lemons. :doh:

There's at least 14 nipples there!

[Blackmail!]

Has this been observed experimentally? Not to my knowledge.



Yes it has.

With fruit flies (Drosophila pseudoobscura). Under extreme environmental pressure (simulated within a laboratory), the interfertility between the surviving population and the main specie severely decreases only after a dozen generations (see Diane Dodd experiment for instance).

So the speciation process can be very fast if needed.

[nanook]

how about a selfaware killer virus or something?

[Mort Belfry]

Yes. You can artificially inseminate a St. Bernard female with Chihuahua sperm and get puppies.

But a Chihuahua with St.Bernard sperm, is that just sadism?

[polikujm]

But a Chihuahua with St.Bernard sperm, is that just sadism?

It works rather well. Soon enough the Chinard gives birth to it's lucky mother.

[Oberon]

Yes it has.

With fruit flies (Drosophila pseudoobscura). Under extreme environmental pressure (simulated within a laboratory), the fertility between the surviving population and the the main specie severely decreases only after a dozen generations (see Diane Dodd experiment for instance).


Really?

I hadn't heard of this. The new bugs must not have been fruit flies.

What did they name the new species, now that it was no longer Drosophila pseudoobscura?

[Oberon]

But a Chihuahua with St.Bernard sperm, is that just sadism?

It's a dead bitch and pups, if gestation is allowed to progress.

[wildcat]

You watch a movie and you stop when you find something interesting.
Is there a stop in the movie?

[Lethal Sage]

I wonder if we will create a new species.

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Can a new species emerge in today's age, not (a) showing itself for the first time, but (b) coming into existence for the first time, branching off an older species, and how long would it take?

I'm asking this out of fear. My cat and dog have been getting awfully close.

I'm fairly certain that new species are emerging all the time, especially if you count microbes. I don't think you have to worry about your dog and cat making something new though.

[polikujm]

You watch a movie and you stop when you find something interesting.
Is there a stop in the movie?

Depends on how good the movie is.

[Shaula]

Can a new species emerge in today's age, not (a) showing itself for the first time, but (b) coming into existence for the first time, branching off an older species, and how long would it take?

I'm asking this out of fear. My cat and dog have been getting awfully close.
A very long time, so don't worry. If your cat and dog are 'successful' they will only produce infertile offspring and they will likely be very special. And when I say special, I mean retarded and deformed.

I wonder if we will create a new species.
The closest we've gotten so far is mules. But technically a mule is not a species.

[Colors]

http://www.jrj-socrates.com/Cartoon%20Pics/Nick%20Toons/Cat%20Dog/Catdog_300.gif

You want one. You know it. Twice the loving and none of the cleanup.

No seriously, what about like, ligers and tigons? The female ones are capable of reproducing... Or some really over inbreed dogs?

But yeah, I don't think you can really draw a line between new species and old species from an up-close standpoint. It's really sort of arbitary at best.

[polikujm]

http://www.jrj-socrates.com/Cartoon%20Pics/Nick%20Toons/Cat%20Dog/Catdog_300.gif

You want one. You know it. Twice the loving and none of the cleanup.

I don't care that somewhere in another dimension is a walking pair of shitting asses, and nobody has been able to slaughter it yet. Or is that why they stopped making episodes? The fact that they require food and eat it implies a vortex within their core, thus a slaughtered ass will spill the feathers.

[wildcat]

Depends on how good the movie is.
Yes.
Nabokov said a good novel is about the stop.
So is a good painting.

Or good science.

[polikujm]

Yes.
Nabokov said a good novel is about the stop.
So is a good painting.

Or good science.

Of it control reveals itself.

[Mort Belfry]

http://www.jrj-socrates.com/Cartoon%20Pics/Nick%20Toons/Cat%20Dog/Catdog_300.gif

The problem I always had with CatDog is that you always see them eating, but never does one shit out the other's effluence. Is there a stomach in there? Bowels? Or is it just a throat the whole way through, and if it is why don't they have the same voice?

These are questions that just seem to have been swept aside by the animators.

[norepinephrine]

The problem I always had with CatDog is that you always see them eating, but never does one shit out the other's effluence. Is there a stomach in there? Bowels? Or is it just a throat the whole way through, and if it is why don't they have the same voice?

These are questions that just seem to have been swept aside by the animators.

Hell, I've been mulling that over since the first time I read Dr. Doolittle.

It's just not right.

[Colors]

Maybe they're just uber-efficient. They use all their nutrients and expell waste all in gaseous form. Or as sweat.

[norepinephrine]

Maybe they're just uber-efficient. They use all their nutrients and expell waste all in gaseous form. Or as sweat.

This is similar to what I was thinking after posting - an incredibly efficient digestive system. One good burp and it's all gone.

[Colors]

We must find this creature and dissect it's amazing digestive system! Kill the golden goose.:angry: Lemons, submit the demon spawn for the good of science.

[Blackmail!]

This is similar to what I was thinking after posting - an incredibly efficient digestive system. One good burp and it's all gone.

Or maybe one of them has a very bad breath.

Ok I -> :run:

[Shaula]

http://www.jrj-socrates.com/Cartoon%20Pics/Nick%20Toons/Cat%20Dog/Catdog_300.gif
Forget the digestive system. How does CatDog have sex?

[Colors]

Spores.

[norepinephrine]

Spores.

Nah, oral.

[polikujm]

All the sex takes place in another dimension. That's why cat is always angry and dog is always happy. Don't you read the fine print?

[Synarch]

Can a new species emerge in today's age, not (a) showing itself for the first time, but (b) coming into existence for the first time, branching off an older species, and how long would it take?

I'm asking this out of fear. My cat and dog have been getting awfully close.

Species only seem distinct because we have such a small view of time. It is all constantly changing.

[Oberon]

Species only seem distinct because we have such a small view of time.

Interpretation of the fossil record seems to indicate that change happens in spurts. Perhaps that's due to environmental stressors.

[Shaula]

Interpretation of the fossil record seems to indicate that change happens in spurts. Perhaps that's due to environmental stressors.
Adaptation, what a concept!

[Oberon]

Adaptation, what a concept!

I meant that change happened in spurts as opposed to the smooth continuum of change that Synarch's comment appeared to imply. Mention of change as being continuous may be technically accurate, but doesn't by itself convey the entire picture.

[norepinephrine]

I meant that change happened in spurts as opposed to the smooth continuum of change that Synarch's comment appeared to imply. Mention of change as being continuous may be technically accurate, but doesn't by itself convey the entire picture.

Punctuated equilibrium. Stephen Jay Gould.

[Colors]

Yeah, but even the faster parts are going to be heavily gradual when observed in our short lifetimes, no? (Unless we're looking at something that lives/reproduces very, very quickly.)

[Happy Puppy]

I heard a vague rumor that these bursts may have involved the poles of the earth switching from north to south which allowed for periods of higher uv light exposure and thus more mutations. (however I can't remember WTF i read that honestly).

I did hear a cool talk from a biochemist who was watching a species of some little microbe evolved genetically over fifty years of collection.

Also this happens every single time you take antibiotics or grow bugs in culture under antibiotics. A few always mutate and are then resistant to the antibiotic. I spent a whole summer trying to isolate a plasmid when the little bugs had a point mutation in the plasmid that prevented the selective antibiotic from working properly.

[Oberon]

Punctuated equilibrium. Stephen Jay Gould.

Stephen Jay Gould didn't do it.

(I thought you weren't a theist...)

[norepinephrine]

Stephen Jay Gould didn't do it.

(I thought you weren't a theist...)

Yeah huh. In the library. With a candlestick.

[Fluffywolf]

Classification of species is man-made.

If you look at the big picture. (Suppose all evolution of life on this planet started with a single cell organism for example.) One could say all living things on this planet are of the same species. That single cell species that just happened to evolve into many many different branches in a long period of time.

A classification of species is merely mankind saying: I found bones, they date from here, based and this and that I call it Badaboom. So in terms of future. Renaming spieces as they involve is unlikely. Suppose the tiger will be as big as a cat over a million years, it will still be a tiger for human kind at that time. New species that could be mentioned are for example cross breeds. (Dog species is a good example.) But one could argue they're new speciesness.

All in all, that which is already classified, will inlikely be re-classified.


That's how I see it anyways. Ofcourse I've no idea what mankind will do. If over ten years we breed enough Ligers (tiger/lion hybrid) to make a new species for example, we could say that's a new species. But then dog breeding can be considered the same.