Want to strangle a coworker or client - Tell us Why ! Share !

[Cloudpatrol]

I am so sorry you are having to endure this [MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION]. Cuz it’s BLECH and so unnecessary.


My response is unusually glum sounding I suppose, but I believe it’s the same as with much of the current world atmosphere:


There is no real way to win with someone like this. The victory comes in enduring (even joyfully when possible) and out-lasting or out-classing the person.


I honestly believe some people are incapable of learning or responding to reason. Or if not incapable, just utterly resistant


I haven’t talked about it here before but I have been dealing with someone (for the past 2.5 years) in a professional setting that is possibly a sociopath. It is a huge motivation for me training for a field where I will be working alone.

This man lies. He directly takes credit for things other’s have done. I have literally said in a meeting: “You are lying. I know for fact that so-and-so procured those clients because of fact 1 and fact 2...” and it gives him no pause whatsoever. If it is directly showed that he is lying, he will just continue to not waver on his innocence and will start to throw irrelevant accusations and insults as response.

His wealth and ability to manipulate seem to grant him power over people. I have had strong support from a couple intelligent and mature people. Other’s say “just give him the benefit of the doubt” or “you need to just get along” or they believe his underhanded slander.

I don’t work outright with him, but we are both freelance Agents for the same organization. I could ignore him except that we have some points of contact in common. More importantly, he preys on the vulnerable which I cannot stand by and watch.



We have had 3 meetings where everyone involved, by the end of things, looked like they had just been through a battle.

Except for him. The more conflict, the more he gleefully smiles and seems energized. He has threatened me, intimidated me and done things that are illegal. But, it is SO hard to prove anything because he is so sneaky and adept at manipulating confusion. At times he can almost make me believe something and I have to shake my head and take a minute to breathe and remind myself of the truth.



He will try to communicate for me with hours about things that could easily be handled in 15 minutes, through a couple simple texts. But, he won’t do written communication with me anymore because I was able to prove things with his own words.



He is literally incapable of empathy. He seems almost aroused by making people cry (so I have NEVER cried around him though I have wept with hurt and frustration after). In one meeting, he flippantly responded to everyone’s feedback by saying “Ok fine, I guess I will be better to Cat and the foreign students”.

A company owner looked shocked and said “Or maybe you could show a bit of human feeling and understanding?”.

He looked irritated and sneered in a very mocking tone at me “Right, I will show feeling and understanding then. Are we done?”.



Others have communicated to me in private how proud of/impressed they are I have taken him on so strongly. But, no one will support me in a public manner. Except for one man who was ultimately dismissed because of it (though other reasons were put forth).

It SO sucks when you are a capable and reasonable person and have to work with someone who has not a clue.


My solution has been to fight the battles I can and hang in until I can leave the situation. Sounds like you don’t have that option.


I feel your frustration. HUG.

 

[EcK]

I am so sorry you are having to endure this [MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION]. Cuz it’s BLECH and so unnecessary.


My response is unusually glum sounding I suppose, but I believe it’s the same as with much of the current world atmosphere:


There is no real way to win with someone like this. The victory comes in enduring (even joyfully when possible) and out-lasting or out-classing the person.


I honestly believe some people are incapable of learning or responding to reason. Or if not incapable, just utterly resistant


I haven’t talked about it here before but I have been dealing with someone (for the past 2.5 years) in a professional setting that is possibly a sociopath. It is a huge motivation for me training for a field where I will be working alone.

This man lies. He directly takes credit for things other’s have done. I have literally said in a meeting: “You are lying. I know for fact that so-and-so procured those clients because of fact 1 and fact 2...” and it gives him no pause whatsoever. If it is directly showed that he is lying, he will just continue to not waver on his innocence and will start to throw irrelevant accusations and insults as response.

His wealth and ability to manipulate seem to grant him power over people. I have had strong support from a couple intelligent and mature people. Other’s say “just give him the benefit of the doubt” or “you need to just get along” or they believe his underhanded slander.

I don’t work outright with him, but we are both freelance Agents for the same organization. I could ignore him except that we have some points of contact in common. More importantly, he preys on the vulnerable which I cannot stand by and watch.



We have had 3 meetings where everyone involved, by the end of things, looked like they had just been through a battle.

Except for him. The more conflict, the more he gleefully smiles and seems energized. He has threatened me, intimidated me and done things that are illegal. But, it is SO hard to prove anything because he is so sneaky and adept at manipulating confusion. At times he can almost make me believe something and I have to shake my head and take a minute to breathe and remind myself of the truth.



He will try to communicate for me with hours about things that could easily be handled in 15 minutes, through a couple simple texts. But, he won’t do written communication with me anymore because I was able to prove things with his own words.



He is literally incapable of empathy. He seems almost aroused by making people cry (so I have NEVER cried around him though I have wept with hurt and frustration after). In one meeting, he flippantly responded to everyone’s feedback by saying “Ok fine, I guess I will be better to Cat and the foreign students”.

A company owner looked shocked and said “Or maybe you could show a bit of human feeling and understanding?”.

He looked irritated and sneered in a very mocking tone at me “Right, I will show feeling and understanding then. Are we done?”.



Others have communicated to me in private how proud of/impressed they are I have taken him on so strongly. But, no one will support me in a public manner. Except for one man who was ultimately dismissed because of it (though other reasons were put forth).

It SO sucks when you are a capable and reasonable person and have to work with someone who has not a clue.


My solution has been to fight the battles I can and hang in until I can leave the situation. Sounds like you don’t have that option.


I feel your frustration. HUG.

OK I have a question.
Why is he still working for this organization ?

 

[Cloudpatrol]

OK I have a question.
Why is he still working for this organization ?

I have devoted WAY too much time pondering that question. I used to imagine "maybe he HAS something on them???".

I wish it was that dramatic. The Man who supported me, and I, have honestly come to the conclusion that: people are simply swayed by his money and charm.

Why does the populace look to Politicians and Celebrities for people to worship and pay exorbitantly?

He doesn't need to work, he is independently wealthy. He uses money to 'buy people'. i.e. Getting them club seats for sports events... He talks a LOT about racism against Asians and is quick to use that if anyone stands up to him. He is inordinately charming. I know EXACTLY what he is like, and even I have to resist that aspect of him. It's almost hypnotizing.

Even with all that...I still can't answer your question properly. The company owners have been involved or present with our disputes, their reputation has suffered in some cases and they have been called on the carpet themselves. Yet, they continue to have his back. It's confounding to me! I literally have had to "let it go" so that I can concentrate on the things I need to.

 

[EcK]

I have devoted WAY too much time pondering that question. I used to imagine "maybe he HAS something on them???".

I wish it was that dramatic. The Man who supported me, and I, have honestly come to the conclusion that: people are simply swayed by his money and charm.

Why does the populace look to Politicians and Celebrities for people to worship and pay exorbitantly?

He doesn't need to work, he is independently wealthy. He uses money to 'buy people'. i.e. Getting them club seats for sports events... He talks a LOT about racism against Asians and is quick to use that if anyone stands up to him. He is inordinately charming. I know EXACTLY what he is like, and even I have to resist that aspect of him. It's almost hypnotizing.

Even with all that...I still can't answer your question properly. The company owners have been involved or present with our disputes, their reputation has suffered in some cases and they have been called on the carpet themselves. Yet, they continue to have his back. It's confounding to me! I literally have had to "let it go" so that I can concentrate on the things I need to.

Ok. well having worked with an intelligent psychopath I know they can learn to play people like fiddles. a) huge egos appeal to people b) they learn lots of the emotional 'reflexes' people have as a 'skill' rather than a trait. so their approach to social interactions is pretty chess-like c) they sincerely believe that it's EVERYONE ELSE'S fault. (because ultimately they are the only 'real person' in their own eyes).

 

[Cloudpatrol]

Ok. well having worked with an intelligent psychopath I know they can learn to play people like fiddles. a) huge egos appeal to people b) they learn lots of the emotional 'reflexes' people have as a 'skill' rather than a trait. so their approach to social interactions is pretty chess-like c) they sincerely believe that it's EVERYONE ELSE'S fault. (because ultimately they are the only 'real person' in their own eyes).

Ok, it's clear you have known someone exactly like him because I screamed when I read b and c. You have him PEGGED.

And, yes, I think a is true also. Or people would not be so 'blinded' or 'immobile' in response to his shenanigans. (I use that phrase in the same sense that the Holocaust was due to Hitler's shenanigans {credit: Gary Gulman})

 

[EcK]

Ok, it's clear you have known someone exactly like him because I screamed when I read b and c. You have him PEGGED.

And, yes, I think a is true also. Or people would not be so 'blinded' or 'immobile' in response to his shenanigans. (I use that phrase in the same sense that the Holocaust was due to Hitler's shenanigans {credit: Gary Gulman})

I mean movie-psychos are obviously well unrealistic, but to use a hollywood hyperbole it's a bit like that scene we all saw a 100 times with the psychotic bad guy being like 'it's all your fault for trying to foil my plans, now you diee' and everyone thinks "okey, that guy is insane".

The thing with an intelligent psychopath is that while they do think that way
a) won't generally show on their face
b) that's not HOW they bring someone down, they learn their 'triggers' and keep 'pushing' / get other people against their prey
c) they use a mix of intimidation / charm depending on need to get people attached / dependent on them.
d) they make themselves seem 'indispensible
e) they generally find ways to be on the outside , ie they'll play people against other people.

For example:
In conversations they'll plant the seeds in people's mind against person b (for example get jokes started on them etc. so people lose respect ) then go to person b and appear like they're just 'trying to help them because people are thinking they're jokes and people are not taking them seriously etc.'

So in this example the guy sets himself up both as 'TRUSTED ADVISOR' and indispensable source of information - which of course gives him additional power and influence

And the intended goal was : a) make person b dependant on them to help with something the psychopath actually created
b) leave no clear 'proof' that they had anything to do with it
c) most important probably - gain power (from this new position they can seem like the 'source of improvements' in 'person's b' and take all the credit

d) if person b wisen up after a while it's too late because the psycho will have made sure that they lost credibility / support and have the means of controlling whether person b thrives or not. So usually it would start with threats and if the psychopath doesn't reassert control he'll get 'rid' of the person.

It SEEMS like a complex thing to do - but when you think of it it's pretty much just the human equivalent of any mammalian predator hunting herd prey. I guess that when we don't grow up with that extra added touch of empathy our brains probably default back to the predator mindset which after all had millions upon millions of years to evolve into a fine tuned blade.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

I mean movie-psychos are obviously well unrealistic, but to use a hollywood hyperbole it's a bit like that scene we all saw a 100 times with the psychotic bad guy being like 'it's all your fault for trying to foil my plans, now you diee' and everyone thinks "okey, that guy is insane".

The thing with an intelligent psychopath is that while they do think that way
a) won't generally show on their face
b) that's not HOW they bring someone down, they learn their 'triggers' and keep 'pushing' / get other people against their prey
c) they use a mix of intimidation / charm depending on need to get people attached / dependent on them.
d) they make themselves seem 'indispensible
e) they generally find ways to be on the outside , ie they'll play people against other people.

For example:
In conversations they'll plant the seeds in people's mind against person b (for example get jokes started on them etc. so people lose respect ) then go to person b and appear like they're just 'trying to help them because people are thinking they're jokes and people are not taking them seriously etc.'

So in this example the guy sets himself up both as 'TRUSTED ADVISOR' and indispensable source of information - which of course gives him additional power and influence

And the intended goal was : a) make person b dependant on them to help with something the psychopath actually created
b) leave no clear 'proof' that they had anything to do with it
c) most important probably - gain power (from this new position they can seem like the 'source of improvements' in 'person's b' and take all the credit

d) if person b wisen up after a while it's too late because the psycho will have made sure that they lost credibility / support and have the means of controlling whether person b thrives or not. So usually it would start with threats and if the psychopath doesn't reassert control he'll get 'rid' of the person.

It SEEMS like a complex thing to do - but when you think of it it's pretty much just the human equivalent of any mammalian predator hunting herd prey. I guess that when we don't grow up with that extra added touch of empathy our brains probably default back to the predator mindset which after all had millions upon millions of years to evolve into a fine tuned blade.

Wow. I am c p'ing (copy pasting, not cloudpatrolling) this into my computer so I can read it later when I am logged out. I need to think on it.

It's frankly brilliant and the concise aspect helps me. I feel like it may help me with this situation in practical ways, but I need to think on the application (art of war it).

Throws arms around neck and gives respectful hug! This is like a gift even if that wasn't your intent. Thank you!!

 

[EcK]

Wow. I am c p'ing (copy pasting, not cloudpatrolling) this into my computer so I can read it later when I am logged out. I need to think on it.

It's frankly brilliant and the concise aspect helps me. I feel like it may help me with this situation in practical ways, but I need to think on the application (art of war it).

Throws arms around neck and gives respectful hug! This is like a gift even if that wasn't your intent. Thank you!!

[MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION]

We actually all KNOW how psychopaths think.
Ya know it's like when people talk about babies like they're aliens and I always say : ok, lets remember this is a human being, he/she's just doing that because of this or that totally normal human behavior. It's not some 'special class of baby only behavior'.

Now imagine you see a tool, you're going to learn that if you press this you get this result, if you press that you get that result. (switch on and off).

Now imagine a Pinball machine, now it gets more tricky but you know that if you tilt this way and use some finesse there you get the pinball where you want it most of the time. And of course practice makes perfect.

Now think of a human in the same way, and you'll probably notice that your brain just suddenly completly changes registers - it's like a new operation system just booted up over the 'tool using monkey brain' operating on different rules.
Well for psychopaths their 'operating system' stays in 'tool using mokey brain' mode when dealing with people.

That's simply and exactly how psychopaths interact with people. Sets of levels / triggers. They want the pinball to go into that hole so they know that that particular person will get there if they use these triggers after having learned what the triggers are exactly how you would be 'trying out a pinball machine'. And they had a lifetime of practice.


That's it, there's no big 'mystery'.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

[MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION]

We actually all KNOW how psychopaths think.
Ya know it's like when people talk about babies like they're aliens and I always say : ok, lets remember this is a human being, he/she's just doing that because of this or that totally normal human behavior. It's not some 'special class of baby only behavior'.

Now imagine you see a tool, you're going to learn that if you press this you get this result, if you press that you get that result. (switch on and off).
Now imagine a Pinball machine, now if gets more tricky but you know that if you tilt this way and use some finesse there you get the pinball where you want it most of the time.
Now think of a human in the same way, and you'll probably notice that your brain just suddenly completly changes registers - it's like a new operation system just booted up over the 'tool using monkey brain' operating on different rules.
Well for psychopaths their 'operating system' stays in 'tool using money brain' mode when dealing with people.


That's simply and exactly how psychopaths interact with people. Sets of levels / triggers. They want the pinball to go into that hole so they know that that particular person will get there if they use these triggers after having learned what the triggers are exactly how you would by 'trying out a pinball machine'.

That's it, there's no big 'mystery'.

Adds this to my "notes".

It's true, what you say.

And yet...because of my make-up it's very hard for me to 1) Not assume people have possibly good intentions (though this is IMPERATIVE for survival and I am much better than I used to be) and 2) to try and ascertain the reasons for behaviour that leave empathy completely out of the equation.

I feel like you just (in two posts) were able to condense the why of things that I have puzzled over for months, into a how-to manual that can be referred back to for clarity and insight.


It's exactly why I am drawn to people who think like yourself. Because it's opposite to how I think, and helps round out my intelligence or thinking ability.


I actually think this can have practical application in my writing as well... I have never thought of viewing people's intents and motivations as operating systems but that helps to distance myself from the emotion of things and focus on the facts.

 

[EcK]

Adds this to my "notes".

It's true, what you say.

And yet...because of my make-up it's very hard for me to 1) Not assume people have possibly good intentions (though this is IMPERATIVE for survival and I am much better than I used to be) and 2) to try and ascertain the reasons for behaviour that leave empathy completely out of the equation.

I feel like you just (in two posts) were able to condense the why of things that I have puzzled over for months, into a how-to manual that can be referred back to for clarity and insight.


It's exactly why I am drawn to people who think like yourself. Because it's opposite to how I think, and helps round out my intelligence or thinking ability.


I actually think this can have practical application in my writing as well... I have never thought of viewing people's intents and motivations as operating systems but that helps to distance myself from the emotion of things and focus on the facts.

Well I am extremely smart and .. what's that word... I have it on the tip of my tongue... ah yeah. humble

It's easier to see things for what they are from the outside. That's why people hire consultants.


edit: [MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION]
And it's not really 'operating systems' more like specialized modules in the brain... or a stream. Water flows naturally depending on the terrain. A normal's brain 'terrain' makes the 'water' flow towards our 'empathetic brain' when dealing with people. A psychopathic brain doesn't 'automatically divert the flow' to the areas of our brains that makes us feel empathy / sympathy etc. and stays in the same problem solving mod you'd be in when dealing with a tool.

They'll sympathize with you as a conscious process they can discard if they wish. Brain imagery suggest that psychopaths can 'switch on their empathy' if they want when for 'normal people' it's not something we control, it's automatic.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

Well I am extremely smart and .. what's that word... I have it on the tip of my tongue... ah yeah. humble

It's easier to see things for what they are from the outside. That's why people hire consultants.

Ha! Is that a subtle way of saying "The invoice is in the mail"?

 

[EcK]

Ha! Is that a subtle way of saying "The invoice is in the mail"?

Nah. Think of it as my good deed of the day.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

Ok. well having worked with an intelligent psychopath I know they can learn to play people like fiddles. a) huge egos appeal to people b) they learn lots of the emotional 'reflexes' people have as a 'skill' rather than a trait. so their approach to social interactions is pretty chess-like c) they sincerely believe that it's EVERYONE ELSE'S fault. (because ultimately they are the only 'real person' in their own eyes).

Worked with one, and dated one and this aligns with my experience and 'research' on the subject.

The second item you list is THE tell imo. When 'stressed' they will chameleon left and right. It's a very 'empirical' method. They will throw anything and everything until they get a reaction they want, completely ignoring non-results. When they get that reaction they will follow up with more of the same, if they hit a wall they 'shift' tactics again.

I recently dealt with a female while at work who called into my work and in the span of less than 2 minutes used; crying first to guilt, then to illicit a white knight reaction when that didn't work. Then began to mock me, imitating my monotone D), then began to curse at me in anger, then went to threatening me; first with my boss, then my bosses boss, then the police, then the company we work for. She started to cry again and tried to plea to my 'humanity' then when that didn't work, tried to guilt me again, then mocked me again. She went back to threatening this time on a personal level, I'm going to have someone hurt you etc.. At this point I told her I was terminating our conversation and then did so. They 'hate' that

 

[EcK]

Worked with one, and dated one and this aligns with my experience and 'research' on the subject.

The second item you list is THE tell imo. When 'stressed' they will chameleon left and right. It's a very 'empirical' method. They will throw anything and everything until they get a reaction they want, completely ignoring non-results. When they get that reaction they will follow up with more of the same, if they hit a wall they 'shift' tactics again.

I recently dealt with a female while at work who called into my work and in the span of less than 2 minutes used; crying first to guilt, then to illicit a white knight reaction when that didn't work. Then began to mock me, imitating my monotone D), then began to curse at me in anger, then went to threatening me; first with my boss, then my bosses boss, then the police, then the company we work for. She started to cry again and tried to plea to my 'humanity' then when that didn't work, tried to guilt me again, then mocked me again. She went back to threatening this time on a personal level, I'm going to have someone hurt you etc.. At this point I told her I was terminating our conversation and then did so. They 'hate' that

If you feel like sharing what was the context here ?
It feels like reading a heavily redacted document otherwise

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I'm a bit late to the discussion, and personally I'm not skilled at dealing with these scenarios, but I used to know a Ti-dom who was brilliant with this type of stuff, so I'll recall some of his approaches.

His standard go-to tactic was to deliberately talk over people's heads to put them in their place. I'm wondering what would happen if you did a reply all to the emails with a response that talks over their heads? That establishes you as competent, intelligent, and implies the other guy doesn't know what he's talking about. So when he tries to force a timeline for deadlines, instead of saying it's not possible, dive into technical jargon that overwhelms and disorients your opponent to demonstrate why it's not possible.

I don't personally think this way - I'm not good at power games, so there may be pieces missing from that suggestion, but it could be a starting point. I do remember the Ti-dom would really pull out all the stops to intellectually dominate. He would do it calmly, and was also good at mirroring their linguistic nuances to immediately sound like an insider whether he was talking to a veterinarian, a military person, or a veterinarian. He would linguistically go inside and then over their heads. It makes the other person feel like they have to play along and nod even when they are completely lost. That establishes a lot of power for the person doing the intellectual overwhelm.

 

[EcK]

I'm a bit late to the discussion, and personally I'm not skilled at dealing with these scenarios, but I used to know a Ti-dom who was brilliant with this type of stuff, so I'll recall some of his approaches.

His standard go-to tactic was to deliberately talk over people's heads to put them in their place. I'm wondering what would happen if you did a reply all to the emails with a response that talks over their heads? That establishes you as competent, intelligent, and implies the other guy doesn't know what he's talking about. So when he tries to force a timeline for deadlines, instead of saying it's not possible, dive into technical jargon that overwhelms and disorients your opponent to demonstrate why it's not possible.

I don't personally think this way - I'm not good at power games, so there may be pieces missing from that suggestion, but it could be a starting point. I do remember the Ti-dom would really pull out all the stops to intellectually dominate. He would do it calmly, and was also good at mirroring their linguistic nuances to immediately sound like an insider whether he was talking to a veterinarian, a military person, or a veterinarian. He would linguistically go inside and then over their heads. It makes the other person feel like they have to play along and nod even when they are completely lost. That establishes a lot of power for the person doing the intellectual overwhelm.

TI dominants do that alot

Issue is that only works with ppl who are not going to always ask u to explain exactly what u mean.
It s not really my thing honestly. I mean i think someone doesn t have what it takes to "lead" if they cant even communicate it to ppl.
So i generally dont have much respect for the whole " i ll drawn youin jargon" bit.
A) it rarely works on me - if i dont know i ll just ask otherwise i ll follow what they mean just fine anyway.
B) i find this type or behavior is often taken up by people who are lazy trying to escape extra work or responsibilities. Developers are kind of famous for pulling that shit on ppl in my industry and i think they re the only ones who think they have anyone fooled.

Therr s this one gut i often work with who s convinced he s the most professional thing since business suits were invented but when planning to work with him we actually tend to use words reminiscent of technics for dealing with small children. He has temper tantrums, changing requirements, argue when he s objectively wrong, basically a guy who complains about getting paid well as an independant (and thinks he's won the argument when everyone s just rolling their eyes waiting for him to finish the project)

Only reason i work with the guy is that getting another dev up to speed on projects he started would be a pain.

 

[chubber]

My friend always wants to strangle me when we play monopoly

 

[EcK]

My friend always wants to strangle me when we play monopoly

I would strangle you if you proposed we play monopoly. So I can see it

 

[chubber]

I would strangle you if you proposed we play monopoly. So I can see it

Remembering the rules vs interpreting the rules...

 

[meowington]

Send him a spam bomb so he won't have time to send obnoxious emails anymore.